Chalk up another Browns signing, Malik Jackson
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Well maybe we add Bama's Christian Barmore to the mix as our 1st round pick. Now that there is a player. He may still be there as BPA if we are lucky.
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Zombo said:
You just strike me as ... not smart.
And a bit of a limited vocabulary.
Zombo
Mea Culpa
Your curious foresight at Billings snap count seemed to lack the educational component that I prefer seeing my colleagues football opinions based upon before posting. Ergo, I gave you a snide, yet mostly dismissive response. If I were to put in the time to give the reasoning behind the numbers I would compile, I don't presume you would offer me that same courtesy in a good faith debate.
Nope, not intelligent or articulate at all.
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Zombo said:
Billings, despite everyone thinking he was some hot shit free agent last year, was just a depth pick up on a one-year $3.5 Million contract (Jackson being paid a million more) , and while the best "nose", I see using him mostly only on first downs, and then replacing him with the faster guys that can get after the QB. He's a run clogger, but not an every down guy.
So the guy coming in on 1st, 2nd and short yardage downs will get less snaps then the guys coming in on 3rd and obvious passing situations? Fact is Billings almost exclusively has that 1gap plugger role on this team, Malik being a pitch count distant 2nd AND health dependent per you.
Doesn't bode well for the snap count.
edit: Billings is also 25 and as we've seen, this front office is particularly fond of these younger role players with some upside. Billings, provided he builds on the good showing in Cincy, might be sticking around longer.
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Zombo said:
You just strike me as ... not smart.
And a bit of a limited vocabulary.
Zombo
Mea Culpa
Your curious foresight at Billings snap count seemed to lack the educational component that I prefer seeing my colleagues football opinions based upon before posting. Ergo, I gave you a snide, yet mostly dismissive response. If I were to put in the time to give the reasoning behind the numbers I would compile, I don't presume you would offer me that same courtesy in a good faith debate.
Nope, not intelligent or articulate at all.
Mea Culpa
Your curious foresight at Billings snap count seemed to lack the educational component that I prefer seeing my colleagues football opinions based upon before posting. Ergo, I gave you a snide, yet mostly dismissive response. If I were to put in the time to give the reasoning behind the numbers I would compile, I don't presume you would offer me that same courtesy in a good faith debate.
Nope, not intelligent or articulate at all.
"Your colleagues"? We are your colleagues, aren't we? Browns fans on the Browns Board. If you don't think we are your colleagues then who, pray tell do you consider to be your "colleagues".
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Zombo said:
Well, you just handed him second down when I said only first. We will be in stop the pass, get the quarterback, mode more than stuff the run mode, which is the reality of the NFL now, and why we will mostly be in a 4-2-5, and why we are dumping dough into our secondary.
I see Jackson on the field more, and if Elliot takes a huge step then he can keep them both off the field.
But I'll guess we'll see. Didn't mean to make it a whole thing. But, we're Super Bowl contenders now, and I don't see having Billings in there as a rotational guy is any kind of great news, but folks seem to be talking themselves into thinking he's something that he's not.
You can go back to being dismissive, thats fine, I don't think I have another Andrew (Is it Andrew?) Billings post in me.
Z
I think it is now a 50/50 proposition that we could be taking an interior Defensive lineman with our first round pick. What that does for Billings/Elliot/Jackson and their playing time, I don't know. Vastly reduce it for someone I wager.
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Mea Culpa
Your curious foresight at Billings snap count seemed to lack the educational component that I prefer seeing my colleagues football opinions based upon before posting. Ergo, I gave you a snide, yet mostly dismissive response. If I were to put in the time to give the reasoning behind the numbers I would compile, I don't presume you would offer me that same courtesy in a good faith debate.
Nope, not intelligent or articulate at all.
"Your colleagues"? We are your colleagues, aren't we? Browns fans on the Browns Board. If you don't think we are your colleagues then who, pray tell do you consider to be your "colleagues".
We are your colleagues, aren't we?
Yes, I was referring to posters on TBB as colleagues. No, I do not include you in that list.
Zombo said:
Well, you just handed him second down when I said only first. We will be in stop the pass, get the quarterback, mode more than stuff the run mode, which is the reality of the NFL now, and why we will mostly be in a 4-2-5, and why we are dumping dough into our secondary.
I see Jackson on the field more, and if Elliot takes a huge step then he can keep them both off the field.
But I'll guess we'll see. Didn't mean to make it a whole thing. But, we're Super Bowl contenders now, and I don't see having Billings in there as a rotational guy is any kind of great news, but folks seem to be talking themselves into thinking he's something that he's not.
You can go back to being dismissive, thats fine, I don't think I have another Andrew (Is it Andrew?) Billings post in me.
Z
Not sure if you've missed the last 15 years, but the majority of teams run nickel and dime 65+% of the time. In order to combat the offensive speed, we saw defenses shift to more MOFC looks (single high) when C3 and C1 became all the rage, sprinkle in your flavor of quarters if you like (here and there). Then, to prevent matchup issues with bigger bodies like LB's or smaller bodies like nickel CB's - NFL offices and coaches started looking for plus size safeties who couldn't cut it playing on a hash consistently. Giving them the flexibility of being physical and quick enough to run with TE's and interior receivers, but big enough to play down low and not get blown off the ball or boxed out on assignment. Offenses adjusted by spreading for power. Which is why you saw so many bigger backs wear down defenses - Gore, Beast Mode, AP, Matt Forte, Arian Foster... etc etc. So having beef on the DI is crucial. I need at least one good body to anchor because there are times I'm going to have to play lighter box counts.
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We are your colleagues, aren't we?
Yes, I was referring to posters on TBB as colleagues. No, I do not include you in that list.
Zombo said:
Well, you just handed him second down when I said only first. We will be in stop the pass, get the quarterback, mode more than stuff the run mode, which is the reality of the NFL now, and why we will mostly be in a 4-2-5, and why we are dumping dough into our secondary.
I see Jackson on the field more, and if Elliot takes a huge step then he can keep them both off the field.
But I'll guess we'll see. Didn't mean to make it a whole thing. But, we're Super Bowl contenders now, and I don't see having Billings in there as a rotational guy is any kind of great news, but folks seem to be talking themselves into thinking he's something that he's not.
You can go back to being dismissive, thats fine, I don't think I have another Andrew (Is it Andrew?) Billings post in me.
Z
Not sure if you've missed the last 15 years, but the majority of teams run nickel and dime 65+% of the time. In order to combat the offensive speed, we saw defenses shift to more MOFC looks (single high) when C3 and C1 became all the rage, sprinkle in your flavor of quarters if you like (here and there). Then, to prevent matchup issues with bigger bodies like LB's or smaller bodies like nickel CB's - NFL offices and coaches started looking for plus size safeties who couldn't cut it playing on a hash consistently. Giving them the flexibility of being physical and quick enough to run with TE's and interior receivers, but big enough to play down low and not get blown off the ball or boxed out on assignment. Offenses adjusted by spreading for power. Which is why you saw so many bigger backs wear down defenses - Gore, Beast Mode, AP, Matt Forte, Arian Foster... etc etc. So having beef on the DI is crucial. I need at least one good body to anchor because there are times I'm going to have to play lighter box counts.
Yes, I was referring to posters on TBB as colleagues. No, I do not include you in that list.
Why not?
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I agree. Billings was on a 1 year prove it contract last year that has pushed to this year.
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A DT in the draft that I'm intrigued by is Iowa's Daviyon Nixon. He has potential to be a penetrating disruptive player in the inside, but I'm not quite sure how high he will be drafted. I've seen people talking about him sneaking into the first round, and I've seen mock drafts not have him listed in the first two rounds. I know Barmore is getting more pub on here, but I think Nixon might be what the Browns need.
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A DT in the draft that I'm intrigued by is Iowa's Daviyon Nixon. He has potential to be a penetrating disruptive player in the inside, but I'm not quite sure how high he will be drafted. I've seen people talking about him sneaking into the first round, and I've seen mock drafts not have him listed in the first two rounds. I know Barmore is getting more pub on here, but I think Nixon might be what the Browns need.
A DT in the draft that I'm intrigued by is Iowa's Daviyon Nixon. He has potential to be a penetrating disruptive player in the inside, but I'm not quite sure how high he will be drafted. I've seen people talking about him sneaking into the first round, and I've seen mock drafts not have him listed in the first two rounds. I know Barmore is getting more pub on here, but I think Nixon might be what the Browns need.
If we got D. Nixon though, wouldn't we have to give him the nickname "Dick"?
Though, I think the Browns security department would have to do a serious background check on him to make sure "he is not a crook".
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Zombo said:
sign a one-year, $3.5 M contract to be a backup on a team with two established starters? I mean, there was plenty of money going around last year, right?
Great question and I'm glad you asked.
Ask any dominant scorer in the NBA who they give credit their performances on - the greats, the humble one's, they'll dedicate it to hard work and then the unsung role players feeding their game. The big boys, the hustlers who shine glass day in and day out. Great rebounding is an oft-overlooked quality by casual fans. But having your guys doing the dirty work down low, creating defensive turnovers into transition offense and getting second chance opportunities on offensive rebounding is generally what separates good teams from great teams. Remember Lebron's earliest days in Miami? I can think of no finer example.
Billings is a role-player, not some superstar. However comma the role that he plays, while not sexy or flashy, is incredibly important. Ever fly down a lane as a DB when a RB busts a hole untouched to your level? It fucking sucks and it hurts. It sucks when your defensive interior can't draw even at the LOS and you find upbacks and Oline peeling off onto your linebackers seemingly every down. It isn't glorious, it isn't stat-packed, and it's honestly the most fundamental position in football. But what Billings does is control where the game starts and is most commonly won or lost - trenches.
The problem is, much to the admission of my own personnel and team building philosophy, I don't invest high draft capital in DI. Because, just like playing RB, I can find productive value in later rounds. (As I've said before there are notable exceptions) But that doesn't diminish the importance of having effective play from those position groups either. Truth is, because of the advent of the NFL being such a passing league, these guys are pushed further and further down draft boards and free agent priority. BUT I would hate the idea of not having a productive running game. I would hate the idea of teams not respecting Baker turning to hand the ball off and worrying about the Browns consistently ripping off 5 yards a pop on 1st down and staying ahead of the chains. Conversely, I hate the idea of not having the bodies to push back and limit the running game. In turn freeing up my linebackers to not have to be quite as aggressive downhill, and keeping my DB's from playing flat footed or even worst stepping down. That 6'1 320lb trench monster might not get sacks, but when I have my back 7 being able to drop into passing lanes because they know he is eating everyone's lunch down low, then guess what? He really is effecting the QB in a direct, but not so direct way. Football is an ecosystem, I have stressed that since day 1 on this board.
Not everyone can pack stat-lines and be a superstar. Not everyone is going to drop 30points a game. But those role players, the supporting cast, "You know, the Other Guys"... as a whole they are crucial to your success as a team (especially in the post season) so you had damn well better make sure that the sum of those players is greater than their parts.
Having young, ascending, effective and most importantly cheap talent like Andrew Billings is nothing to scoff at. You never know how important it is until you don't have it.
edit: Jobi is gone, so now Billings is absolutely a day 1 starter. He's a starter in early down nickel, he's a starter in early down heavy packages against Baltimore. Someone has to slide in and fill that role. I can't hand it to Jackson, who is older, coming off injury but brings a true vet savvy. Or I can give the spot to the young producer with less mileage on his body and save said savvy vet for the SuperBowl run when you're absolutely going to want him having quality fresh minutes. No brainer..
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Why not?
Same reason I don't include a lot of people - Not many put in time and work increasing their own football IQ. Instead of mindlessly linking media experts ad neuseam, (guess I should include the sarcasm font?) I give more weight to the content of those who instead strive to form their own conclusions.
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Zombo said:
sign a one-year, $3.5 M contract to be a backup on a team with two established starters? I mean, there was plenty of money going around last year, right?
Great question and I'm glad you asked.
Ask any dominant scorer in the NBA who they give credit their performances on - the greats, the humble one's, they'll dedicate it to hard work and then the unsung role players feeding their game. The big boys, the hustlers who shine glass day in and day out. Great rebounding is an oft-overlooked quality by casual fans. But having your guys doing the dirty work down low, creating defensive turnovers into transition offense and getting second chance opportunities on offensive rebounding is generally what separates good teams from great teams. Remember Lebron's earliest days in Miami? I can think of no finer example.
Billings is a role-player, not some superstar. However comma the role that he plays, while not sexy or flashy, is incredibly important. Ever fly down a lane as a DB when a RB busts a hole untouched to your level? It fucking sucks and it hurts. It sucks when your defensive interior can't draw even at the LOS and you find upbacks and Oline peeling off onto your linebackers seemingly every down. It isn't glorious, it isn't stat-packed, and it's honestly the most fundamental position in football. But what Billings does is control where the game starts and is most commonly won or lost - trenches.
The problem is, much to the admission of my own personnel and team building philosophy, I don't invest high draft capital in DI. Because, just like playing RB, I can find productive value in later rounds. (As I've said before there are notable exceptions) But that doesn't diminish the importance of having effective play from those position groups either. Truth is, because of the advent of the NFL being such a passing league, these guys are pushed further and further down draft boards and free agent priority. BUT I would hate the idea of not having a productive running game. I would hate the idea of teams not respecting Baker turning to hand the ball off and worrying about the Browns consistently ripping off 5 yards a pop on 1st down and staying ahead of the chains. Conversely, I hate the idea of not having the bodies to push back and limit the running game. In turn freeing up my linebackers to not have to be quite as aggressive downhill, and keeping my DB's from playing flat footed or even worst stepping down. That 6'1 320lb trench monster might not get sacks, but when I have my back 7 being able to drop into passing lanes because they know he is eating everyone's lunch down low, then guess what? He really is effecting the QB in a direct, but not so direct way. Football is an ecosystem, I have stressed that since day 1 on this board.
Not everyone can pack stat-lines and be a superstar. Not everyone is going to drop 30points a game. But those role players, the supporting cast, "You know, the Other Guys"... as a whole they are crucial to your success as a team (especially in the post season) so you had damn well better make sure that the sum of those players is greater than their parts.
Having young, ascending, effective and most importantly cheap talent like Andrew Billings is nothing to scoff at. You never know how important it is until you don't have it.
edit: Jobi is gone, so now Billings is absolutely a day 1 starter. He's a starter in early down nickel, he's a starter in early down heavy packages against Baltimore. Someone has to slide in and fill that role. I can't hand it to Jackson, who is older, coming off injury but brings a true vet savvy. Or I can give the spot to the young producer with less mileage on his body and save said savvy vet for the SuperBowl run when you're absolutely going to want him having quality fresh minutes. No brainer..
edit: Jobi is gone, so now Billings is absolutely a day 1 starter. He's a starter in early down nickel, he's a starter in early down heavy packages against Baltimore. Someone has to slide in and fill that role. I can't hand it to Jackson, who is older, coming off injury but brings a true vet savvy. Or I can give the spot to the young producer with less mileage on his body and save said savvy vet for the SuperBowl run when you're absolutely going to want him having quality fresh minutes. No brainer..
I never saw Ogun as the 1 tech that Billings is..he will fill that role. As for starter, I think we sometimes get hung up on that with some D-line players.
Garrett is a starter, a guy who plays every down except to get a blow on the sidelines from time to time. D-line has become a situational position group like running backs, tight ends, and maybe receiver to some degree. It's the only defensive unit that has become that. Backers maybe in that you might take one off the field from time to time.
So arguing over who is the starter is useless. By the end of the game, you will have a lot of players who get close to the same number of snaps.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. -
Why not?
Same reason I don't include a lot of people - Not many put in time and work increasing their own football IQ. Instead of mindlessly linking media experts ad neuseam, (guess I should include the sarcasm font?) I give more weight to the content of those who instead strive to form their own conclusions.
Same reason I don't include a lot of people - Not many put in time and work increasing their own football IQ. Instead of mindlessly linking media experts ad neuseam, (guess I should include the sarcasm font?) I give more weight to the content of those who instead strive to form their own conclusions.
Well, I certainly strive to form my own conclusions on certain things, but I think it fair that you not include me in the group on here that goes into excruciating detail about these draft prospects. While I understand that it likely highly entertaining and interesting to you, I personally find that sort of thing mind numbingly boring. I respect what you do with that, and I do read most of it, I do not revel in it. So, it is fair to say that, no, I don't draw my own conclusions on draft picks certainly...because I am not, and won't be that attentive to it. So, my references to these picks will indeed be derivative of and referential to someone who has put on the work on this. I will just do what entertains me, even if that means it is superficial and shallow when it comes to prospect evaluation. You'll just have to put up with that!! ?
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edit: Jobi is gone, so now Billings is absolutely a day 1 starter. He's a starter in early down nickel, he's a starter in early down heavy packages against Baltimore. Someone has to slide in and fill that role. I can't hand it to Jackson, who is older, coming off injury but brings a true vet savvy. Or I can give the spot to the young producer with less mileage on his body and save said savvy vet for the SuperBowl run when you're absolutely going to want him having quality fresh minutes. No brainer..
I never saw Ogun as the 1 tech that Billings is..he will fill that role. As for starter, I think we sometimes get hung up on that with some D-line players.
Garrett is a starter, a guy who plays every down except to get a blow on the sidelines from time to time. D-line has become a situational position group like running backs, tight ends, and maybe receiver to some degree. It's the only defensive unit that has become that. Backers maybe in that you might take one off the field from time to time.
So arguing over who is the starter is useless. By the end of the game, you will have a lot of players who get close to the same number of snaps.
I never saw Ogun as the 1 tech that Billings is..he will fill that role. As for starter, I think we sometimes get hung up on that with some D-line players.
Garrett is a starter, a guy who plays every down except to get a blow on the sidelines from time to time. D-line has become a situational position group like running backs, tight ends, and maybe receiver to some degree. It's the only defensive unit that has become that. Backers maybe in that you might take one off the field from time to time.
So arguing over who is the starter is useless. By the end of the game, you will have a lot of players who get close to the same number of snaps.
To an extent, what you're saying is very accurate. But the more players you have who can be that jack-of-all-trades, means less chances your caught in the wrong personnel package on subs. If Billings can work on that getting skinny like Mount Shaun Rodgers could... sweet Jesus.
As for Jobi, I personally will miss having him on this team. Because when he won his assignment, he would win in a huge way. He's lateral agility was also great for a guy his size which is part of the reason why we saw success against teams that loved to run the OZ like the Browns do. Take for example the defense getting after Derrick Henry.
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I liked Ogun just fine, but it doesn't really bother me he left. I am sure we had a dollar amount in mind if he didn't sign somewhere else, but he did.
There is a long way to go before the final roster is set. I don't think we will have much problem filling his spot with a player just as capable.
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I never saw Ogun as the 1 tech that Billings is..he will fill that role. As for starter, I think we sometimes get hung up on that with some D-line players.
Garrett is a starter, a guy who plays every down except to get a blow on the sidelines from time to time. D-line has become a situational position group like running backs, tight ends, and maybe receiver to some degree. It's the only defensive unit that has become that. Backers maybe in that you might take one off the field from time to time.
So arguing over who is the starter is useless. By the end of the game, you will have a lot of players who get close to the same number of snaps.
To an extent, what you're saying is very accurate. But the more players you have who can be that jack-of-all-trades, means less chances your caught in the wrong personnel package on subs. If Billings can work on that getting skinny like Mount Shaun Rodgers could... sweet Jesus.
As for Jobi, I personally will miss having him on this team. Because when he won his assignment, he would win in a huge way. He's lateral agility was also great for a guy his size which is part of the reason why we saw success against teams that loved to run the OZ like the Browns do. Take for example the defense getting after Derrick Henry.
... getting skinny like Mount Shaun Rodgers could... sweet Jesus.
Name I've not read (or thought of) in a long time.
Amazing how Shaun in his prime in DET could stack a double on one play and then "disappear" himself thru an OL on the very next.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
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