2021 'Who are you watching?' NFL prospect thread.

tiamat63

McNeil v UNC

@ :06 - Slight shade from Alim and the Playside End/Tackle. Still a two gap for AM in a Zone to/ Zone away situation. First things I noticed that
show up routinely are a low base, flat back, head up and good weight distribution. While his arms aren't long, run to the snap and pause - his FIRST
move before anything it to use those arms. He's not crashing into contact with his body, He's using his strength and length to control his man while still
maintaining those great fundamentals I mentioned before. He controls just enough of the center to walk him back and prevent too much lateral movement on this weakside zone. Because the natural crease on these plays are to the inside shoulder of the playside gaurd or the center, Alim does a fine job of fighting to stay square and ripping his inside arm free to attack the ball carrier. Granted, this was an PRO but if this ball was a give, then I can ask no more of my Nose on this play. He's won his assignment and is forcing the halfback into a negative depth of cut after driving the center back. Great first look.

@ 0:20 - Before you run this play, do a box count. NC State regularly runs 6 man boxes and some type of 2 shell, even on running downs/distances. They do this because of their skill up front, the bulk of which I credit to Alim. AM on a heads up 2 gap look, run the snap... see? Arms create contact, LOW base with that initial leg drive. It's almost like watching someone at the gym do a front face hack-squat. Either that or this kid never leaves the blocking sleds. His first hit is always jaunting this center. Heavy, heavy hands along with active eyes and feet. But this is where I talk about fundamental play. AM knows the center is over-extending and putting everything he can into holding his ground. So he shifts his weight, maintains leverage and literally puts the man down to pursue and force this lateral.

@ 1:02 - Please, just watch this kids initial contact on the center. He creates that force and it's nasty... always. The contact re-establishes that interior LOS and almost completely fucks this pull.

@ 1:12 - IZ to, never lets the center cross his face. wins the first step and outside shoulder so immediate that he can stay square and locate the would-be ball carrier.

@ 1:20 - Slides to with the lateral action. Immediate recognizes no give, uses his hands and active leg drive to rip back acorss the center. LG got in on the double after no work to his side, AM still pushing them back. You'll hear the phrase "more active than athletic" thrown around this time of year. Because it applies to this very type of situation and player. Alim is a more "active" pass rusher/gap shooter. He isn't an elite athlete like Aaron Donald is. His hustle, strength, fundamental play and non-stop motor are what get him results in the middle. Probably gets the pressure here if the LG doesn't kick over late.

@ 1:29 - I don't have to say it anymore than what you're watching. His pad level, contact, leg drive, strength and first step are elite for his position. His hands are into the centers chest before that ball hits the QB's hands on the snap. Keep in mind he's 2 gapping here, either side of the center he has to own to make this defense work. This looks some type of pin and pull scheme. Maybe @tour2ma can help me out here with that one but it sure looks it? Either way it matters little because like I said earlier, AM re-establishing and knocking back that interior LOS almost again completely fucks this LG pulling. Actually if this was a give then yeah... that's a bust.

@ 2:32 - Strong side split zone with a sift from the frontside H. The sift is late and doesn't pick up the backside crash. Even if it did, I highly doubt this play goes anywhere. Once again AM is controll his two gaps and the center, this time with this left arm. Keeping that outside shoulder and arm free to bring down the ball carrier or at worst to turn this back inside to traffic.

@ 3:05 - RPO, a well designed one too. Because they're reading the frontside curl/flat defender. That would be #13, 2nd from the top. IF he steps down, balls going out against the cushion. He stays flat or gets depth, RB gets the ball. But pay attention to Alim here. Center is completely handled and the LG struggles to get through the limited space to the next level. So much that when these linebackers read pull, they don't hesitate - they go.

@ 3:13 - Interesting look. Lock the box, read the weakside edge, then you have another RPO with the QB having the Y on the curl or he can keep it himself since the backside flash block becomes a lead. Oh, yeah... Alim. Center got bullied again. So much so that the guards are now looking to help chip before they move to the 2nd level. Guards can't cleanly move to the backers and the downhill pursuit is having a field day beating the pulls to the line.

@ 4:14 - This is as close to a "win" as the center got. I just felt you should see that.

@ 4:55 - When you drive the center in the manner that Alim does, these guards are having to work their ass off rounding out their steps to pull. Gives your backers time to recover, better vision on the backfield, and more chances for tacklers to make the play with the extra space.

@ 5:40 - UNC got cute, RG tried to immediately work to the Mack backer without giving his center help. Instead Alim handled the man so bad he practically made the play himself. By the way, that's him winning laterally, staying square but driving his man back north south while keeping his eyes in the backfield. That's gap integrity, disruption and a finish all in one. I can't ask for my nose to play any better in the redzone. I either get my center some serious help or pray I can dial up perimeter runs.

@ 7:06 - A rare example of a big man who has quick feet, and tight lower/upper body sync'd control. Alim worked to set this guard up to his outside shoulder, then spins back inside off contact. Leg drive was still there and didn't slow down until the back got in on the chip help. Might look silly to some of you, but that was one of those "Ok, so he can do THIS" kind of moments. Where you take what you know, blend it with an idea, and project to what he may accomplish in your defense at the NFL level. I know people have his size that can't even spin like that. But you notice the quick hands like a boxer trying to get the guard to "watch the birdie". Another subtle detail.

@ 8:08 - UNC not getting cute anymore. Center loses and loses back, RG comes into make sure this isn't a disaster on the double team. Alim still gets into and through the gap. That center is 2 yards deep. You're forcing the RB to cut which is exactly what you want. The only thing that kept this from being a potential safety was the backside pursuit and safety coming down fast and with such poor body control.

@ 8:23 - I've reference a few players before on this board who played in similar defensive systems. Poona Ford, Gregg Gaines, Bravvion Roy... All were 2 gap noses but not the "traditional" 340-350lb Behemoths. You didn't get much of a chance to see them pressure QB's because that wasn't what they're tasked to do. This is an example of what happens when McNeil wins a single gap and just pushes upfield. I'd like to think there's a certain design here to get Alim this look because the backside 4i is just taking up space on the guard and tackle. IF it wasn't, then it was all AM.

@ 8:31 - Another good look for the "active vs athletic" side of an interior push. Against a slide protect too. The entire front creates this pressure but Alim getting so far upfield forces the throw away.

@ 10:14 - Almost a carbon copy of earlier when Alim walked the center and got the RB. The only difference is a little window dressing from UNC with the Z on a little jet action. RG goes for the frontside ILB and Alim forces the RB to head square into nothing or look for a cutback. (spoiler alert, it was nothing)

@ 10:30 - Active eyes - eyes up. Works the center with his arms, reads the cutback - sheds and almost makes the tackle.

I wanted to know just who Alim was abusing in this game (The center) because aside from that one time said center drew neutral, he didn't win a single 1 on 1 look. Hell, he barely won with chip or double team help. Brian Anderson, JR. 6-3 300lbs. Rimmington Watch list and ACC lineman of the week in October. So in short, Alim didn't just work over some freshman, a backup, a walk-on or what have you. He smoked a kid who is going to get legit NFL looks and will be drafted.

Credit to the coaches at NCState. Because while the backup nose wasn't as effective, it had nothing to do with coaching and everything to do with talent. The backup was equally fundamental in his play (base, pad level, arms and leverage) Alim just has that functional strength that translates so damn well to the IDL it isn't even funny. And for 6'2 320lbs? He moves VERY well with short area quickness for a kid that size. He would be likely getting 1st round hype at a bigger
program and in a defense that would have given him more 1 gap responsibilities. A few more chances to rush the passer would have looked outstanding on his resume'. So like I said, there is a certain "projection" here when you talk about where you see him in a Joe Woods defense. But what you wanted to see with consistency is what you'll find in this cutup. Notice that word I Love? Consistency. Doing it here or there is one thing - doing it play after play is another matter entirely.

I think he fits in whatever alignment Joe prefers. I Know, going off the 2017 and 2018 tape I watched, that Woods would like to get back to some of those 3 man "under" and blended gap fronts along with more single high looks. Cover 1, cover 3 and such. The return of Andrew Billings really helps the Browns in terms of making those looks a reality this defense could effectively deploy. But Andrew is coming off of not playing football for a whole year and what side-effects that may entail. And outside of Billings we lack a true nose who can log quality snaps. Keep in mind the Browns kept 7 linebackers on the active roster last season. .... SEVEN. I wouldn't at all put it past this coaching staff to draft 2 IDL's this season and only run with 6 linebackers. 3 as "starters" 4th rotational and 2 more for special teams.

I just think that regardless of the front, McNeil can be a very effective value player for Cleveland. Some of us are worried about how long Billings will be on this team for and the long-term outlook for the Dline. As of next year we'd be set to lose Clowney, Billings, Jackson & Takk. That's no short order. Having some long(er) term stability to pair with Myles on the cheap would be an absolutely sound investment. My early eye LOVES the potential combination of my own personal team building philosophy along with this talent on tape.

Any IDL you're drafting this year is going to come in and asked to play rotational minutes. Mostly late game, early downs and redzone/goaline work. Yes, that includes @texasag1969 beloved Barmore. VALUE. If I can get 90+ % of Barmore's production in the first 2 years spending a 45th pick as opposed to a 26th overall pick then I'm going to do it each and everytime. It isn't sexy, it isn't flashy. In all honesty it's boring as fuck to watch unless you're truly into seeing how the trenches play out (obviously, I am) What McNeil does, he does VERY well. I'm excited to watch more.

tiamat63

So I'm working on another 10min cut-up of Alim McNeil vs Va Tech and I really can't stop gushing. Despite the fact the majority of this kids snaps from come from a classic heads-up nose, he still manages to consistently make plays well outside of the realm of his responsibility.

I don't care what website or publication has them in rankings - Christian Barmore does have the higher ceiling. But the better football player as of today is Alim McNeil, IMHO.

TexasAg1969

@tiamat63 said:

So I'm working on another 10min cut-up of Alim McNeil vs Va Tech and I really can't stop gushing. Despite the fact the majority of this kids snaps from come from a classic heads-up nose, he still manages to consistently make plays well outside of the realm of his responsibility.

I don't care what website or publication has them in rankings - Christian Barmore does have the higher ceiling. But the better football player as of today is Alim McNeil, IMHO.

I still take Barmore for the long term. He is a powerful guy who can learn from Jackson on a daily basis how it's done.

SdBacker80

@texasag1969 said:

I still take Barmore for the long term. He is a powerful guy who can learn from Jackson on a daily basis how it's done.

Way too much 2/3/4 round talent at IDL to take Barmore.

calfoxwc

Mike Strachan, WR, Charleston. Grade: 6th Round

Height: 6’4”. Weight: 225 lbs.

track athlete, school 400 meter record holder...

very raw, Div II.

5th/6th round ?

TexasAg1969

@sdbacker80 said:

Way too much 2/3/4 round talent at IDL to take Barmore.

So we have the makings of a Bama IDL passover a la Bama RB passover of Derrick Henry? So Brownsian!??

tiamat63

@texasag1969 said:

So we have the makings of a Bama IDL passover a la Bama RB passover of Derrick Henry? So Brownsian!??

Henry was passed over by 1 RB - Zeke. That's it. You make it sound like he's Terrell Davis.

tiamat63

Unless I missed it, I'm still anxiously awaiting to hear some IOL value picks from @tour2ma

TexasAg1969

@tiamat63 said:

Henry was passed over by 1 RB - Zeke. That's it. You make it sound like he's Terrell Davis.

Browns passed him over for Coleman (now out of the league) and Ogbah. Great choices there. That is the kind of Passover the Browns have specialized in until Garrett & Baker. We even took a chance that Chubb might get lifted before us when we took Corbett two picks prior. Head scratcher. I was yelling at the TV, "Take Chubb dummies, take Chubb!" And then we take an unknown OL from the Mountain West instead of a high quality SEC RB. I went ballistic until they got him at #35.

And the comparison for Henry is closer to 14th overall pick in 1995 Eddie George if you want a RB listed that is a similar type back.

However if Henry had been a Brown he actually might have saved Huey from his goofball short yardage calls inside the 5, so at least there is that compensation.?

The Gipper

@texasag1969 said:

Browns passed him over for Coleman (now out of the league) and Ogbah. Great choices there. That is the kind of Passover the Browns have specialized in until Garrett & Baker. We even took a chance that Chubb might get lifted before us when we took Corbett two picks prior. Head scratcher. I was yelling at the TV, "Take Chubb dummies, take Chubb!" And then we take an unknown OL from the Mountain West instead of a high quality SEC RB. I went ballistic until they got him at #35.

And the comparison for Henry is closer to 14th overall pick in 1995 Eddie George if you want a RB listed that is a similar type back.

However if Henry had been a Brown he actually might have saved Huey from his goofball short yardage calls inside the 5, so at least there is that compensation.?

I suspect that Henry wasn’t the only decent player that we passed over when we took Coleman and Ogbah that year. So no real need to focus in on him particularly. We ended up getting someone just as good. But certainly those were not good draft picks. Which has been the bane of this franchise ever since at least 1999 if not before. Maybe since 1978.

tiamat63

@texasag1969 said:

Browns passed him over for Coleman (now out of the league) and Ogbah. Great choices there. That is the kind of Passover the Browns have specialized in until Garrett & Baker. We even took a chance that Chubb might get lifted before us when we took Corbett two picks prior. Head scratcher. I was yelling at the TV, "Take Chubb dummies, take Chubb!" And then we take an unknown OL from the Mountain West instead of a high quality SEC RB. I went ballistic until they got him at #35.

And the comparison for Henry is closer to 14th overall pick in 1995 Eddie George if you want a RB listed that is a similar type back.

However if Henry had been a Brown he actually might have saved Huey from his goofball short yardage calls inside the 5, so at least there is that compensation.?

So the Browns passed over a franchise RB, for what they felt at the time, was a franchise WR.

Sorry, but I make that move 10 of 10 times. And since Henry was a 2nd round pick, a more apt comparison in this case would be - who would you take... Michael Thomas or Derrick Henry?

The answer to that one is pretty easy.

The Gipper

Question: Might the Browns be looking for a decent punt and Kickoff return man this year in the draft. I think it is fair to say that we have not really had a decent one of those since Travis Benjamin was here....so, quite a number of years. Or, is there anyone on this team that anyone think could be really good at handling those jobs. (I am not seeing it).

I know it is a "minor" position, but it could become a major asset if we really had one. After all, think about what having a Josh Cribbs and an Eric Metcalf meant for us.

Who is Kent State's QB? They seem to end up being really good at other positions.

The Gipper

Browns 2020 Kick and Punt return stats. Not impressive IMO.

Kick & Punt Returns

	Games	Punt Returns	Kick Returns
No.	Player	Age	Pos	G	GS	Ret	Yds	TD	Lng	Y/R	Rt	Yds	TD	Lng	Y/Rt	APYd
	Team Total	25.6		16		24	115	0	13	4.8	36	795	0	43	22.1	7160
	Opp Total			16		25	229	0		9.2	38	998	1		26.3
11	Donovan Peoples-Jones	21		12	2	18	77	0	13	4.3	18	379	0	33	21.1	760
30	D'Ernest Johnson	24		16	0	3	13	0	10	4.3	14	351	0	43	25.1	544
19	Jojo Natson	26		3	0	3	25	0	13	8.3	1	31	0	31	31.0	59
25	Dontrell Hilliard	25		5	0						2	21	0	13	10.5	71
31	Andy Janovich	27		14	3						1	13	0	13	13.0	30

I mean, is Natson coming back supposed to vastly improve us in this department?

SdBacker80

@the-gipper said:

Browns 2020 Kick and Punt return stats. Not impressive IMO.

Kick & Punt Returns

Games Punt Returns Kick Returns
No. Player Age Pos G GS Ret Yds TD Lng Y/R Rt Yds TD Lng Y/Rt APYd
Team Total 25.6 16 24 115 0 13 4.8 36 795 0 43 22.1 7160
Opp Total 16 25 229 0 9.2 38 998 1 26.3
11 Donovan Peoples-Jones 21 12 2 18 77 0 13 4.3 18 379 0 33 21.1 760
30 D'Ernest Johnson 24 16 0 3 13 0 10 4.3 14 351 0 43 25.1 544
19 Jojo Natson 26 3 0 3 25 0 13 8.3 1 31 0 31 31.0 59
25 Dontrell Hilliard 25 5 0 2 21 0 13 10.5 71
31 Andy Janovich 27 14 3 1 13 0 13 13.0 30

I mean, is Natson coming back supposed to vastly improve us in this department?

Kickoff return is nearly an obsolete skill set with the way touchbacks happen nowadays.

I was happy with the way DPJ secured punts. 1st job is always secure (catch it) and hang onto it most importantly we keep the ball but also we don’t give up field position

The Gipper

@sdbacker80 said:

Kickoff return is nearly an obsolete skill set with the way touchbacks happen nowadays.

I was happy with the way DPJ secured punts. 1st job is always secure (catch it) and hang onto it most importantly we keep the ball but also we don’t give up field position

Yes, true. The league hates what was one of the most exciting plays in football. But in my opinion, their concerns over safety associated with kickoffs is way overblown.

And, sure. Catching the punt is better than muffing it....but I am talking about getting someone who is a threat to take the ball back all the way....after he secures it.

SdBacker80

@the-gipper said:

Yes, true. The league hates what was one of the most exciting plays in football. But in my opinion, their concerns over safety associated with kickoffs is way overblown.

And, sure. Catching the punt is better than muffing it....but I am talking about getting someone who is a threat to take the ball back all the way....after he secures it.

Believe it is Luxury at this point. Browns 5,10,15, 20 years ago it was more of necessity as a source of offense because we didn’t have the luxury of an actual pass/run score points offense.

Times are changing

tiamat63

Punt return > kick return

Tour2ma

@tiamat63 said:

Unless I missed it, I'm still anxiously awaiting to hear some IOL value picks from @tour2ma

lol... didn't do a lot of work on OL since we're pretty well set, but...

Vast majority of the late round IOLs are not ZBS fits, but there are a couple exceptions...

Pitt kid... Morrissey... looks like best fit in 2nd half of Day 3, but he's basically a 2021 version of Nick Harris.
Middle Tennessee's Robert Jones could be worth a 6th round flyer... played OT, and dominated lesser competition, he moves reasonably well, but is definitely moving inside. Hard to know when he will go in Day 3 tho. 5th round is not out of the question.
Want to spend more? Stanford's Drew Dallman likely costs you a 4th. Good technician, but needs to hit the weight room.... hard.

OTs (since you didn't ask )?

If we trade down, then I think tu's Cosmi has to be considered late-1st/early 2nd. Instant backup everywhere except Center and brings cheap, cap-pinch value to our right side. That said... I doubt we go there, so in the economy class...

tsun's Jalen Mayfield... OK not exactly ECON, but closer. Again he brings 4-position versatility and great value. Might be there late 2nd.
Cheaper? Western Michigan's Jaylon Moore. Really fluid mover, and compact enough to handle OG with some work. Small school discount should land him in the 6th.
Even cheaper? Iowa's Alaric Jackson... looked at him last year when it was believed he'd declare. For some reason he's fallen this year (maybe age?). Should be there very late... possible UDFA. Likely only an OT.

Unsympathetic

@tour2ma said:

lol... didn't do a lot of work on OL since we're pretty well set

Not after 2021 we're not.. no re-signing of Teller and cutting Tretter/starting Harris to save 2+8 salary. Sure, they could go another direction but.. late-round IOL is a lot more probable to become a productive/excellent starter than late-round WR. So we need both a future RG starter and quality backups at both spots.

Tour2ma

@unsympathetic said:

Not after 2021 we're not.. no re-signing of Teller and cutting Tretter/starting Harris to save 2+8 salary. Sure, they could go another direction but.. late-round IOL is a lot more probable to become a productive/excellent starter than late-round WR. So we need both a future RG starter and quality backups at both spots.

Well... it's not as if I did not give any names.