Phil Savage Drafts
-
@jadbf said:
Quit using facts for comparison AlYou're just too in love with Savage.
Don't you know how easy it is to be a GM, Draft all the best linebackers and get every great FA to sign for you?
Sounds like a plan. -
@jadbf said:
hmmm...butch davis got them to the playoffs with a 9-7 record....This team with the talent savage brought in was 10-6 last year.......
and guess how many winning seasons Davis had????? uh yeah that 1 9-7
Huge difference there yes there is.....
Tell me what playoff game we played in with that 10-6 record
How many teams with winning records did we beat
You say you like to debate but you only point out things to try to make you look good, I'd rather go 7-9 and make the playoffs than 10-6 and staying at home saying if the Colts had played well we would of won when he had the easiest schedule in football and still missed the playoffs but then again you keep saying all this talent we have as we sit today at 4-8 staring a 4-12 season or maybe 5-11 in the face. if we had so much talent that Savage brought in we would have a winning record.........I know your answer its all RAC's fault we need better coaching not better players.
You say this team with the talent Savage brought in was 10-6 last year......well that same talent with more added talent has us at 4-8 and looking at another losing season........so you want to tell about all that talent.....where is all that talent JADBF
What does Bill Parcells like to say......YOU ARE WHAT YOU ARE AND WE ARE A 4-8 TEAM LESS TALENTED THAN MANY HOMERS WANT TO ADMIT
How many people had the Browns winning the AFC North? going deep in the playoffs? having more than 6 Pro Bowl players
What about all the talk was this is the year we bypass the Steelers.......looks like many people were WRONG
We all were fooled by last seasons easy schedule that produced 10 wins.......time to admit the truth
-
@jadbf said:
I'm done talking to you Tom.Statements like this show me how much you don't actually read what other people write,
Look who's talking? You ONLY read what you WANT to read. If it's not "Phil Savage is wonderful" - you and other Savage prisses throw hissy fits and personalize because you got no game. That's freakin gay so carry on Poindexter...
- Tom F.
-
@jadbf said:
First of all...don't you get like Tom.Now where have I said it is all RAC's fault. I have said it's more his fault that Savages.
And secondly, All I was combating was your little point that somehow Davis was better than what we have now. And you are wrong.
SONY, you did awesome. You got him twisting his take in all different directions. All the Savage fans get cranky and prissy when you bring up the personnel mess we have. They're not HAPPY with how they are articulating his perfection so just feel flattered at their only resort. They really just want it to be RAC's fault exclusively so it's a simple fix. I keep saying if it was that easy - we wouldn't be looking for Head Coach #4 already. VERY talented don't teams just don't consistently finish with 4-6 wins the way our body by Savage has looked for 3 of his 4 years here. And no matter how hard they try, when RAC had a GREAT Supervisor and GOOD players in NE there wasn't a person in MA that didn't think he could coach. The SAME people that want him gone are the SAME ones that wanted BB gone and can't admit it.
We ALL know Butch Davis is better suited for college than pros. That said, when Butch Davis inherited a 5-27 football team in 2001 - he had us in the playoffs in 2002. And if you looked at the schedule back then we had to BEAT an Atlanta team that was going to the NFC playoffs on the final week of the season and we did. The Savage fans HATE hearing our 2007 schedule had 12 youth football teams on it but that's how many teams on it could not win MORE than 8 games (if you researched the mean of wins for those 12 teams - it won't exceed 5). Once again, we were only 3-3 in the division.
This part is for SONY - who gave RAC a raise this year? How about Jamal Lewis? How did Roye do after RAC gave him a raise? How did Bodden do after RAC gave him a raise? Savage's first 2 QB ideas were Trent Dilfer and Charlie Frye right? His next stroke of brilliance was seeing he needed to lock up Andra Davis after watching films of Jamal Lewis gaining over 500 yards running up the middle against us in 2 games (only 6-7 quarters worth). Jason Fiske's body was shotso - there wasn't anything left in his tank. That was knee jerk decision where a Savage fan will caution was he was cap friendly. He was alo opponent friendly as we ranked 31st against the run. WHY sign him at all? Because Phil's draft pick Andrew Hoffman was even worse. End result: Fiske got more than a million $ when 31 other teams had already concluded "hang-em up son."
The main reason we have to remain so overdepedent on free agency is because Phil has only had 1 decent draft in 2007. Have we even seen 1 kid from the 2008 draft yet? Who's left from 2005? So when Joe J, Donte Stallworth, Robaire Smith, Kenny Wright, Antwaan Peek and other Savage signees show up to games in blue jeans - how MANY draftees from the Savage era are helping us win?
Ready for this? How many guys leftover from the Davis era on our 2007 team were given raises? Andra Davis? Leigh Bodden? Ryan Tucker? Orpheus Roye? How about other key guys Savage looked to from the Davis era like Sean Jones & Kellen Winslow in 2007? Steve Heiden was here pre-Savage too right? Wasn't Phil Dawson? I'm not seeing a BIG difference from Savage that he so confidently said he'd make.
- Tom F.
-
@jadbf said:
First of all...don't you get like Tom.Now where have I said it is all RAC's fault. I have said it's more his fault that Savages.
And secondly, All I was combating was your little point that somehow Davis was better than what we have now. And you are wrong.
SONY, you did awesome. You got him twisting his take in all different directions. All the Savage fans get cranky and prissy when you bring up the personnel mess we have. They're not HAPPY with how they are articulating his perfection so just feel flattered at their only resort. They really just want it to be RAC's fault exclusively so it's a simple fix. I keep saying if it was that easy - we wouldn't be looking for Head Coach #4 already. VERY talented don't teams just don't consistently finish with 4-6 wins the way our body by Savage has looked for 3 of his 4 years here. And no matter how hard they try, when RAC had a GREAT Supervisor and GOOD players in NE there wasn't a person in MA that didn't think he could coach. The SAME people that want him gone are the SAME ones that wanted BB gone and can't admit it.
We ALL know Butch Davis is better suited for college than pros. That said, when Butch Davis inherited a 5-27 football team in 2001 - he had us in the playoffs in 2002. And if you looked at the schedule back then we had to BEAT an Atlanta team that was going to the NFC playoffs on the final week of the season and we did. The Savage fans HATE hearing our 2007 schedule had 12 youth football teams on it but that's how many teams on it could not win MORE than 8 games (if you researched the mean of wins for those 12 teams - it won't exceed 5). Once again, we were only 3-3 in the division.
This part is for SONY - who gave RAC a raise this year? How about Jamal Lewis? How did Roye do after RAC gave him a raise? How did Bodden do after RAC gave him a raise? Savage's first 2 QB ideas were Trent Dilfer and Charlie Frye right? His next stroke of brilliance was seeing he needed to lock up Andra Davis after watching films of Jamal Lewis gaining over 500 yards running up the middle against us in 2 games (only 6-7 quarters worth). Jason Fiske's body was shotso - there wasn't anything left in his tank. That was knee jerk decision where a Savage fan will caution was he was cap friendly. He was alo opponent friendly as we ranked 31st against the run. WHY sign him at all? Because Phil's draft pick Andrew Hoffman was even worse. End result: Fiske got more than a million $ when 31 other teams had already concluded "hang-em up son."
The main reason we have to remain so overdepedent on free agency is because Phil has only had 1 decent draft in 2007. Have we even seen 1 kid from the 2008 draft yet? Who's left from 2005? So when Joe J, Donte Stallworth, Robaire Smith, Kenny Wright, Antwaan Peek and other Savage signees show up to games in blue jeans - how MANY draftees from the Savage era are helping us win?
Ready for this? How many guys leftover from the Davis era on our 2007 team were given raises? Andra Davis? Leigh Bodden? Ryan Tucker? Orpheus Roye? How about other key guys Savage looked to from the Davis era like Sean Jones & Kellen Winslow in 2007? Steve Heiden was here pre-Savage too right? Wasn't Phil Dawson? I'm not seeing a BIG difference from Savage that he so confidently said he'd make.
- Tom F.
Have we even seen 1 kid from the 2008 draft yet?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Come on, Tom. Not only is that an unfair question (are any of your late-round rookies contributing? no? then YOU SUCK!), but it's one that you still lose on.
Alex Hall has 23 tackles and 3 sacks. Pretty good for a 7th rounder, no?
Also, Ahtyba Rubin's been getting some time at NT, Beau Bell's been playing specials, and we're about to see plenty of Rucker.
It's way too early to start dissing our '08 draft class. Personally, I wasn't very high on Beau Bell, but I think the guy deserves time (& a healthy training camp) before we start calling him a bust.
-
Have we even seen 1 kid from the 2008 draft yet?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Come on, Tom. Not only is that an unfair question (are any of your late-round rookies contributing? no? then YOU SUCK!), but it's one that you still lose on.
Alex Hall has 23 tackles and 3 sacks. Pretty good for a 7th rounder, no?
Also, Ahtyba Rubin's been getting some time at NT, Beau Bell's been playing specials, and we're about to see plenty of Rucker.
It's way too early to start dissing our '08 draft class. Personally, I wasn't very high on Beau Bell, but I think the guy deserves time (& a healthy training camp) before we start calling him a bust.
Aloysius said:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Come on, Tom. Not only is that an unfair question (are any of your late-round rookies contributing? no? then YOU SUCK!), but it's one that you still lose on.
Alex Hall has 23 tackles and 3 sacks. Pretty good for a 7th rounder, no?
Also, Ahtyba Rubin's been getting some time at NT, Beau Bell's been playing specials, and we're about to see plenty of Rucker.
It's way too early to start dissing our '08 draft class. Personally, I wasn't very high on Beau Bell, but I think the guy deserves time (& a healthy training camp) before we start calling him a bust.
Not to mention, we would have seen more of Rucker already if we weren't so deep at TE. We also would have seen more of Bell if he hadn't gotten injured. So far, Phil has a lot to boast about with the 08 draft.
I'd still like to see some sort of "hit or miss" percentage with Savage's drafts compared to other GM's around the league. Nobody is successful with every pick. I think his drafts have been pretty good.
-
Aloysius said:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Come on, Tom. Not only is that an unfair question (are any of your late-round rookies contributing? no? then YOU SUCK!), but it's one that you still lose on.
Alex Hall has 23 tackles and 3 sacks. Pretty good for a 7th rounder, no?
Also, Ahtyba Rubin's been getting some time at NT, Beau Bell's been playing specials, and we're about to see plenty of Rucker.
It's way too early to start dissing our '08 draft class. Personally, I wasn't very high on Beau Bell, but I think the guy deserves time (& a healthy training camp) before we start calling him a bust.
Not to mention, we would have seen more of Rucker already if we weren't so deep at TE. We also would have seen more of Bell if he hadn't gotten injured. So far, Phil has a lot to boast about with the 08 draft.
I'd still like to see some sort of "hit or miss" percentage with Savage's drafts compared to other GM's around the league. Nobody is successful with every pick. I think his drafts have been pretty good.
I'd still like to see some sort of "hit or miss" percentage with Savage's drafts compared to other GM's around the league. Nobody is successful with every pick. I think his drafts have been pretty good.
I calculated the percentage of draft picks I thought were starting-caliber players, and here's what I got:
Draft Pick Hit Rate
Giants: 52.6%
Colts: 38.5%
Chargers: 38.1%
Ravens: 37.5%
Browns: 36%
Steelers: 32%
Patriots: 26.9%
Basically, we're in the middle of the pack of some really good drafting teams. Though some of those teams have drafted more elite players than us, we haven't been drafting more busts than the Scott Pioli and Kevin Colbert's of the world.
I think Savage deserves to be criticized for his management style, as well as some of the FA moves he made this past offseason. But I don't think his drafts somehow justify canning him. If he deserves to be fired or demoted, it's not because he suddenly forgot how to scout.
-
Heres the deal between the Savage and RAC debate as I see it.
RAC is a horrible coach that cant get the most out of his players and has given us a team that plays with no heart week in and week out. He has to go.
BUT...
We can not keep blowing this team up every 4 years and expect to get any where, other than where we are now.
Has Savage been pefect? No, but the talent level on this team is no doubt better since he has been here. With a coach that can get the most out of his players and put them in a position to be better then they are, you never know what this year and the players we have could have been with a better coach.
You give savage on more year with a different coach and after that year if the coach we get doesnt feel he is getting the talent he needs you show Savage the door.
I just dont think you blow this team up completely and expect to be better any time soon. We could have some talent on this team that hasnt been able to produce due to bad coaching and trying to bend players to a system instead of bending the system to the players. Hell best example I can think of is Jeff Garcia, he looked like crap here because he was in the wrong system for his style of play. Look how well he is doing in TB.
So you fix the glaring problem, and hope that Savage can have a better offseason and if he doesnt you get rid of him next year.
-
I'd still like to see some sort of "hit or miss" percentage with Savage's drafts compared to other GM's around the league. Nobody is successful with every pick. I think his drafts have been pretty good.
I calculated the percentage of draft picks I thought were starting-caliber players, and here's what I got:
Draft Pick Hit Rate
Giants: 52.6%
Colts: 38.5%
Chargers: 38.1%
Ravens: 37.5%
Browns: 36%
Steelers: 32%
Patriots: 26.9%
Basically, we're in the middle of the pack of some really good drafting teams. Though some of those teams have drafted more elite players than us, we haven't been drafting more busts than the Scott Pioli and Kevin Colbert's of the world.
I think Savage deserves to be criticized for his management style, as well as some of the FA moves he made this past offseason. But I don't think his drafts somehow justify canning him. If he deserves to be fired or demoted, it's not because he suddenly forgot how to scout.
Aloysius said:
I calculated the percentage of draft picks I thought were starting-caliber players, and here's what I got:Draft Pick Hit Rate
Giants: 52.6%
Colts: 38.5%
Chargers: 38.1%
Ravens: 37.5%
Browns: 36%
Steelers: 32%
Patriots: 26.9%
Basically, we're in the middle of the pack of some really good drafting teams. Though some of those teams have drafted more elite players than us, we haven't been drafting more busts than the Scott Pioli and Kevin Colbert's of the world.
I think Savage deserves to be criticized for his management style, as well as some of the FA moves he made this past offseason. But I don't think his drafts somehow justify canning him. If he deserves to be fired or demoted, it's not because he suddenly forgot how to scout.
How accurate is this thing? I'm looking at Lindy's preseason magaize for 2008 and Pittsburgh drafted the following guys appearing in their starting lineup/ rotation weekly:
Hines Ward, Santonio Holmes, Ben Roethlisberger, Kendall Simmons, Casey Hampton, Pollyneedsahaircut, Brett Keisel, Aaron Smith, Larry Foote, Lawrence Timmons, Ike Taylor, Deshea Townsend, Willie Colon, Max Starks, Marvel Smith, LaMarr Woodley, Heath Miller, William Gay, Bryant McFadden. Dan Sepulveda. Seems like alot to me.
Willie Parker was an undrafted free agent.
They've even had to All Pros/good players they drafted who became highly sought after FAs landing on other teams like Plex Burress, Allan Faneca, Joey Porter and Chris Hope.
OBVIOUSLY it's over a longer period of time BUT they replaced studs leaving for FA with studs from the draft. Some of our most important people in 2007 were guys here before Savage like: Sean Jones, KWII, Ryan Tucker (almost a full season for once), Ryan Pontbriand, Steve Heiden, Phil Dawson, Leigh Bodden, Orpheus Roye and Andra Davis. Savage gave raises to the last 4 guys I mentioned in order to keep them.
Here's our Savage draftees in the in the regular mix/rotation after 4 years of drafting and there's been some considerable debate on a few:
Thomas, Edwards, Vickers, Wimbley, Jackson, McDonald, Wright, Pool
Cribbs is an undrafted surprise (like Willie Parker)
Harrison, Rubin, Williams and Stubbedtoes don't play enough to count. I LIKE Harrison as much as any of our draftees. I named 8 out of 22 starters and of the 8 a few of them have struggled with performance consistency. How many could start at Pittsburgh? Now doesn't that help us make sense of being 0-7 vrs Pittsburgh since Body-by-Savage? It should unless we're exercising our coping skills.
- Tom F.
-
Have we even seen 1 kid from the 2008 draft yet?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Come on, Tom. Not only is that an unfair question (are any of your late-round rookies contributing? no? then YOU SUCK!), but it's one that you still lose on.
Alex Hall has 23 tackles and 3 sacks. Pretty good for a 7th rounder, no?
Also, Ahtyba Rubin's been getting some time at NT, Beau Bell's been playing specials, and we're about to see plenty of Rucker.
It's way too early to start dissing our '08 draft class. Personally, I wasn't very high on Beau Bell, but I think the guy deserves time (& a healthy training camp) before we start calling him a bust.
Aloysius said:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Come on, Tom. Not only is that an unfair question (are any of your late-round rookies contributing? no? then YOU SUCK!), but it's one that you still lose on.
Alex Hall has 23 tackles and 3 sacks. Pretty good for a 7th rounder, no?
Also, Ahtyba Rubin's been getting some time at NT, Beau Bell's been playing specials, and we're about to see plenty of Rucker.
It's way too early to start dissing our '08 draft class. Personally, I wasn't very high on Beau Bell, but I think the guy deserves time (& a healthy training camp) before we start calling him a bust.
Aloy,
It's not like I want guys to suck. Hall caught my eye especially early on so that's a GOOD point by you.
As for Rubin, when Rogers goes out our 2nd Nose Tackle looks like a helpless blocking sled going backwards. I'm not going to give Rubin a thumbs up. I've seen Beau Bell make 1 STs tackle and I have YET to see Rucker play so I gotta see it to believe it. I've done the HOMER stuff for 40+ years and all the wishful thinking in the world didn't make Charlie Frye the guy we needed him to be. It's NEVER too early. Do you ever get sick of saying "next year?" I was saying next year in the 70s and 80s and it's now 2008. At some point you gotta do it THIS year.
Do you know what frustrates me the most? The NEW culture surrounding this franchise that re-emphasizes to players. media and fans that we have all the time in the world. It's okay if we're not good now - we'll be good later. That's enough to make the right players not want to stay here. When we're WINNING I'll love the GM, Head Coach and even the waterboys. We're not winning so I'm sick of hearing we're extremely talented. We are what our record says we are over 4 years. Insufficient.
- Tom F.
-
The Saints got Vilma b/c the Jets realized that he doesnt fit a 3-4. RAC runs a 3-4. Vilma is not an option. Adalius Thomas is an OLB, always has been as far as I can tell. Even if he was capable of playing ILB, why would he want to? He was offered $20 guaranteed to play the position he likes for the Super Bowl champions. What do you think Phil shouldve done about that? Bart Scott never wanted to play here. He left before a serious offer was ever made. That was fairly well covered as I recall. Cato June was also available at one point. He's a great linebacker...if you're playing cover 2. But we dont.
If you want to play a 4-3, take that up with RAC and Lerner. As far as I can tell, Savage doesnt have much control over that. He needed 3-4 ILBs, and Bart Scott is the only one you've mentioned.
If you want to play a 4-3, take that up with RAC and Lerner. As far as I can tell, Savage doesnt have much control over that. He needed 3-4 ILBs, and Bart Scott is the only one you've mentioned.
So you're saying we would have needed to bench Clay Matthews if we went to a 4-3 alignment? Very interesting but I'm not sure he would have taken the news well that he's not a 4-3 LBer. Wanna bet he'd just say I can play LBer in ANY freakin scheme and prove it? And didn't Ray Lewis play in a 4-3 in college? Baltimore had a season where they used a 3-4 and he didn't didn't get benched Tupa so WHY do you think a solid 4-3 LBer can't handle a 3-4? If you're a stud - you're a stud. If you're limited to begin with it'll show up in what you can and cannot do. We don't have alot of flexible LBers currently serviceable from what I see.
Actually, we're using 4 man fronts right now. On 90% of the snaps vrs Indy we had 4 guys upfront with a hand down as the commentator alluded to on Sunday. Confining Peyton Manning's offense to just 3 points gave us a GREAT chance to win AND I dare say that's the BEST game I've seen D'Qwell Jackson play all season. If you taped the game - check out the 4-2 alignment we were in most of the day.
BTW, wasn't Adalius Thomas a 3-4 LBer? Didn't NE invite him to join in on a perfect regular season in 2007? We didn't need him either? Tupa, there's more than just 1 or 2 guys in the last 4 years that would have been better than Andra Davis as much as that pains you to hear for convenience of arguement. Not for nothing, but Teddy Bruschi was a down linemen in college as was Mike Vrabel so if you are the right prototype - you can adapt to anything. Shane Conlan never played in a 3-4 at Penn State - should Buffalo have refused to draft him for a LBer out of college that played in a 3-4?
One of the KEY players for Tennessee is FA LBer David Thornton. I think he could have adapted to any alignment to be brutally honest here. Mathias Kiwanka was starting at OLB when Osi Youmeanwhatever got injured so now Kiwanuka is back to lining up with a hand down If you have the RIGHT guy - he's gonna be flexible enough for formations to change. NE as those guys in Bruschi and Vrable. In fact, Vrable was actually worse when he played in Pittsburgh than when he played in NE. In the pros, he seems better standing up than putting a hand down. Do you need more examples? Jevon Kearse was a standup LBer at Florida and in the pros he plays with a hand down every play. Right guy? Jamir Miller transitioned from standup LBer to playing better with a hand down. Right guy? Bottom line: that's why they say take the best athlete available. When you have alot of these types - it's amazing how crerative and innovative you can be with chess matchups on Sundays.
- Tom F.
-
Are you trying to argue that Vilma or June would be good 3-4 LBs, or are you trying to make a new list? It looks like you start out with the former and shift gears half way through.
If you think Vilma would make a good 3-4 LB, maybe you should tell Mangini. He dumped him because he didnt fit the scheme. Every Jet fan and commentator say it coming a year in advance.
-
If you want to play a 4-3, take that up with RAC and Lerner. As far as I can tell, Savage doesnt have much control over that. He needed 3-4 ILBs, and Bart Scott is the only one you've mentioned.
So you're saying we would have needed to bench Clay Matthews if we went to a 4-3 alignment? Very interesting but I'm not sure he would have taken the news well that he's not a 4-3 LBer. Wanna bet he'd just say I can play LBer in ANY freakin scheme and prove it? And didn't Ray Lewis play in a 4-3 in college? Baltimore had a season where they used a 3-4 and he didn't didn't get benched Tupa so WHY do you think a solid 4-3 LBer can't handle a 3-4? If you're a stud - you're a stud. If you're limited to begin with it'll show up in what you can and cannot do. We don't have alot of flexible LBers currently serviceable from what I see.
Actually, we're using 4 man fronts right now. On 90% of the snaps vrs Indy we had 4 guys upfront with a hand down as the commentator alluded to on Sunday. Confining Peyton Manning's offense to just 3 points gave us a GREAT chance to win AND I dare say that's the BEST game I've seen D'Qwell Jackson play all season. If you taped the game - check out the 4-2 alignment we were in most of the day.
BTW, wasn't Adalius Thomas a 3-4 LBer? Didn't NE invite him to join in on a perfect regular season in 2007? We didn't need him either? Tupa, there's more than just 1 or 2 guys in the last 4 years that would have been better than Andra Davis as much as that pains you to hear for convenience of arguement. Not for nothing, but Teddy Bruschi was a down linemen in college as was Mike Vrabel so if you are the right prototype - you can adapt to anything. Shane Conlan never played in a 3-4 at Penn State - should Buffalo have refused to draft him for a LBer out of college that played in a 3-4?
One of the KEY players for Tennessee is FA LBer David Thornton. I think he could have adapted to any alignment to be brutally honest here. Mathias Kiwanka was starting at OLB when Osi Youmeanwhatever got injured so now Kiwanuka is back to lining up with a hand down If you have the RIGHT guy - he's gonna be flexible enough for formations to change. NE as those guys in Bruschi and Vrable. In fact, Vrable was actually worse when he played in Pittsburgh than when he played in NE. In the pros, he seems better standing up than putting a hand down. Do you need more examples? Jevon Kearse was a standup LBer at Florida and in the pros he plays with a hand down every play. Right guy? Jamir Miller transitioned from standup LBer to playing better with a hand down. Right guy? Bottom line: that's why they say take the best athlete available. When you have alot of these types - it's amazing how crerative and innovative you can be with chess matchups on Sundays.
- Tom F.
Mathias Kiwanka was starting at OLB when Osi Youmeanwhatever got injured so now Kiwanuka is back to lining up with a hand down If you have the RIGHT guy - he's gonna be flexible enough for formations to change.
FWIW, the Browns weren't too high on Kiwi as a 3-4 OLB. And I'm not sure many people were predicting that he'd be able to play 4-3 OLB.
-
Let me attempt to fill in for Flugs on this one....
Rhetoric.
Hyperbole.
Rhetoric?
<insert King James Bible>
Hyperbole.
Hyperbole.
<insert War and Peace>
Rhetoric?
<insert Encyclopedia Britannica>
Hyperbole?
Hyperbole.
"I like to quote myself." -Me -
Let me attempt to fill in for Flugs on this one....
Rhetoric.
Hyperbole.
Rhetoric?
<insert King James Bible>
Hyperbole.
Hyperbole.
<insert War and Peace>
Rhetoric?
<insert Encyclopedia Britannica>
Hyperbole?
Hyperbole.
Let me attempt to fill in for Flugs on this one....
Rhetoric.
Hyperbole.
Rhetoric?
<insert King James Bible>
Hyperbole.
Hyperbole.
<insert War and Peace>
Rhetoric?
<insert Encyclopedia Britannica>
Hyperbole?
Hyperbole.
Think you forgot the exorcism of AFL championships speech somewhere in there.
-
Let me attempt to fill in for Flugs on this one....
Rhetoric.
Hyperbole.
Rhetoric?
<insert King James Bible>
Hyperbole.
Hyperbole.
<insert War and Peace>
Rhetoric?
<insert Encyclopedia Britannica>
Hyperbole?
Hyperbole.
Let me attempt to fill in for Flugs on this one....
Rhetoric.
Hyperbole.
Rhetoric?
<insert King James Bible>
Hyperbole.
Hyperbole.
<insert War and Peace>
Rhetoric?
<insert Encyclopedia Britannica>
Hyperbole?
Hyperbole.
Never expected better from you Tim. GREAT contibutions to the board so far. Way to hang in there. Looking forward to your next insults. Now that the political board needed a babysitter or a shutdown - I feel so priviledged I get to deal with the colicky people that ruined that board. Lucky me!
Savage Nation defines reality as "over-the-top" while they have convinced themselves we're the 72 Dolphins without Don Shula but shhhhhhhh! Let them be heard. We a quick fix from paradise but that ain't rhetoric or jibberish. Meanwhile, the scorebaord reads the Browns are averaging 6 wins a year while our overall record in the Savage era for this extremely talented team is now 24-34. That's an average of 6 wins a year. Got me THERE kids!
- Tom F.
-
Mathias Kiwanka was starting at OLB when Osi Youmeanwhatever got injured so now Kiwanuka is back to lining up with a hand down If you have the RIGHT guy - he's gonna be flexible enough for formations to change.
FWIW, the Browns weren't too high on Kiwi as a 3-4 OLB. And I'm not sure many people were predicting that he'd be able to play 4-3 OLB.
Aloysius said:
FWIW, the Browns weren't too high on Kiwi as a 3-4 OLB. And I'm not sure many people were predicting that he'd be able to play 4-3 OLB.I know - we have Kam Wimbley that noone has EVER complained about instead. Good point! Thanks for clearing THAT one up.You DO realize before Osi got hurt the play was to STANDUP Kiwanuka at OLBer in 2008.
And Tupa, you DO realize Vilma went to the SAME college using the SAME formations Ray Lewis and Vince Wilfork came from. BOTH guys can play in a 3-4 or 4-3 or they wouldn't have experienced the success rates they have thus far. Why wouldn't Vilma be able to play in a 3-4? That's what the Jets were running when they drafted him. Was he the Defensive Rookie of the Year in the AFC? In addition, you thinking Savage is outstanding - he took Leon Williams from guess where? Same college kid!
Like I said, if you're good enough as a LBer you can play in a 3-4. You just want more explanation so your Savage Nation buddies can cry rhetoric at me. I think it's explained considerably well because you just gave my explanation a deaf ear and re-asked the question a different way. Ray Lewis didn't play in a 3-4 in college nor did Leon Williams nor did Vince Wilfork - they just had the athletic versatility to be awesome for the style. As I explained, ALOT of guys now playing in 3-4s played in 4-3s in college like Mike Vrable. Teddy Bruschi was DE on the Desert Storm team and he was moved to an ILBer. All that info ain't convenient so you and someone like Timugen call it rhetoric.
And guys like Clay Matthews and Harry Carson could play in a 3-4 or a 4-3. If Vilma was a rookie of the year - I can say I think he's a talented LBer that can play in a 3-4 or a 4-3 with a great deal of confidence. I think football teams are better off drafting MORE versatile guys than the Wali Rainer types that are limited to 1 system over the other.
Another thing, if Leon Williams was too stupid to stay on the field in Miami's college schemes - is he REALLY a better LBer for us than someone like Vilma from the SAME college? Vilma's strength is instincts if you watch him play. He makes a ton of tackles at the line of scrimmage. Guess what scheme the NY Jets were running when they drafted him? A 3-4.
- Tom F. (The Pittsburgh Steeler fans love Phil Savage and why shouldn't they? They've never been this undefeated against us. But Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, we're gonna need pacifiers if I say that too loud.)
-
Jesus, Flugel. You've taken this thing to nearly DA vs. BQ levels with the use of the word "nation". Next thing we know you'll be calling people Savage-fags.
I myself think Savage has done a pretty good job drafting and improving the personnel, though his strategy for doing some of it may not be so perfect.
You've got to keep this in mind...Romeo Crennel's defense isn't going to help any GM. It's not going to make any linebacker look like a star. The corners and safeties will always be hung out to dry in Crennel's cowardly, pillow defense.
I still retain judgement on Savage until we see his personnel maximized.
Among his many, many good moves, these are the only failures I see...
1.) D'Qwell Jackson, though a good smart young linebacker, doesn't belong in the 3-4.
2.) Maybe putting a little too much money into going for the "whole thing" right now.
3.) Donte Stallworth
4.) Signing DA instead of trading him for a 1st/3rd, or whatever he could have gotten.
That's about it. The jury is still out on Wimbley, and I don't blame him for not signing another corner. If Crennel woudl blitz once a year, our current corners wouldn't look so bad. Harrison's misuse isn't his fault, nor are Edwards' hands, nor are the injuries to Holly, Robaire, JJ, K2 previously, and Edwards previously. You can say what you want about he should have depth, but remember it's only his 4th year.
You can't expect a guy to build an amazign 53 man roster by his 4th year. I'd say he's done a lot more good than bad.
What do you think Savage's win-loss record would be with, say, Bill Cowher as head coach? His personnel might look a ton better then.
-
Are you trying to argue that Vilma or June would be good 3-4 LBs, or are you trying to make a new list? It looks like you start out with the former and shift gears half way through.
If you think Vilma would make a good 3-4 LB, maybe you should tell Mangini. He dumped him because he didnt fit the scheme. Every Jet fan and commentator say it coming a year in advance.
Are you trying to argue that Vilma or June would be good 3-4 LBs, or are you trying to make a new list? It looks like you start out with the former and shift gears half way through.
If you think Vilma would make a good 3-4 LB, maybe you should tell Mangini. He dumped him because he didnt fit the scheme. Every Jet fan and commentator say it coming a year in advance.
That's funny because that's exactly what the Jets were running when they drafted him. You DO know he was defensive Rookie of the Year in the 3-4 scheme right? But here's some stuff about Vilma as you assure everyone Jackson, Davis and Williams are better LBers for our 3-4.
"In his final year, Vilma led the team in tackles for a second time with 127 (81 solo), notched a sack, forced one fumble, and recovered three fumbles. Vilma ended the year as a finalist for the Butkus Award. Along with his success on the field, Vilma was a three-time Academic All-Big East Conference. He received a Bachelor's degree in finance from the University of Miami's well-respected School of Business Administration.
Pre-draft measurables
4.54 40 Yard Dash
37 Inch Vertical
23 Bench Reps
6.67 Three-Cone Drill
4.20 Short Shuttle
10-foot-1 Broad Jump
New York Jets
Vilma was drafted by the Jets with the 12th selection in the 2004 NFL Draft.
2004
In 2004, Vilma was named as the NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year by the Associated Press. During his rookie campaign, he recorded 108 tackles, two sacks, and three interceptions, including one which was returned for his first NFL touchdown.
2005
In 2005, Vilma led the NFL in tackles with 173, forced four fumbles, notched one fumble recovery, half a sack, and one interception. Vilma also replaced Zach Thomas at the 2006 Pro Bowl.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gee, you got me there!
- Tom F.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login