Phil Savage Drafts
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Tom, is isnt your job to back up your claims with relevant facts? I'm not asking you to play GM, just tell me which ones are better than Savage. Picking out a couple hits by one or two other teams compared to a couple choice misses by Phil isnt really saying anything is it? Savage missed Colston, but so did every other GM in the league, right? At least a few times, and that includes your boy Polian and the almighty stoolers. The facts are out there, wikipedia can tell you who was taken in every draft that Savage participated in. Which GMs consistently outperformed him? Is it more than a few? Alo gave you some quick numbers showing Phil picks as well as the Steeler, Pats, Ravens, Colts... Are you sure he isnt a great GM?
If you're going to ask me to read your novel length rants, I dont think it is too much for me to ask that you give me something more than a list of what pisses you off.
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Tom, is isnt your job to back up your claims with relevant facts? I'm not asking you to play GM, just tell me which ones are better than Savage. Picking out a couple hits by one or two other teams compared to a couple choice misses by Phil isnt really saying anything is it? Savage missed Colston, but so did every other GM in the league, right? At least a few times, and that includes your boy Polian and the almighty stoolers. The facts are out there, wikipedia can tell you who was taken in every draft that Savage participated in. Which GMs consistently outperformed him? Is it more than a few? Alo gave you some quick numbers showing Phil picks as well as the Steeler, Pats, Ravens, Colts... Are you sure he isnt a great GM?
If you're going to ask me to read your novel length rants, I dont think it is too much for me to ask that you give me something more than a list of what pisses you off.
Tom, is isnt your job to back up your claims with relevant facts? Are you sure he isnt a great GM?
They are facts BUT they don't support your opinion so you get personal and pissy.
That said, I like your nervous style of asking questions so don't mind if I stoop to it here.
What was our record in 2005? How many GMs were better? Are names necessary from me?
What was our record in 2006? How many GMs were better? Are names necessary from me?
What was our divisional record in 2007? Did we make the playoffs? How many GMs were better? Are names necessary?
What is our record in 2008? How many GMs are better? Are names necessary from me?
After 4 years - what's our winning percentage? What's the feedback about our starting QB situation? How does an unbiased commentator see our team? What do people think of our LBers?
How have the following players/coaches justified salary increases immediately after:
Orpheus Roye?
Leigh Bodden?
Andra Davis?
Ryan Tucker?
Todd Granthom?
Denise Northcutt?
Reuben Droughns?
RAC?
Derek Anderson?
Jamal Lewis?
Have the following FAs been way overpaid? Just a simple yes or no please:
Donte Stallworth?
Corey Williams?
Matt Stewart?
Jason Fisk?
Joe Andruzzi?
Kenny Wright?
Ted Washington?
What was their return value in terms of wins and losses per average seat price at home?
Sticking with factuals instead of opinion here's more questions you're bound to hate if you're wearing knee pads for Phil Savage:
What draftees are providing depth on the oline?
What percentage of draftees have hung onto make our dline rotation? What percentage landed on other starting rotations?
What was our record with Trent Dilfer starting?
Were people HAPPY to see Dilfer replaced by Frye (be honest)?
What was Frye's record as starting QB?
Did DA win his first 3 starts in 2006?
Were people happy to see Dumb Ass replace Frye (be honest)?
Has DA won any of his last 3 starts?
Were people happy to see BQ replacing Dumb Ass (be honest)?
After 2 full years on the roster - do we know if Quinn will be viewed as negatively as Savage's other QBs of choice like Kyle Boller, Charlie Frye, Stoney Case, and Chris Redman?
Why did it take 4 years to land a REAL Nose Tackle? Am I accurate in saying Parker, Kelley, Washington, Fisk, Hoffman and Oshinowo = 6 swing and misses? Does htis = .000 batting average? Is this opinion or are they starting elsewhere today?
Can you name 1 LBer of the 4 - you're REALLY impressed with on our team in terms of consistently performing at a high level after 4 years? Wasn't there a time we could easily answer Clay Matthews and Chip Banks or Clay Matthews and Mike Johnson while thinking the other 2 weren't bad?
In the 80s, we had talent coming in from everywhere and EVERY guy seemd to be like "WOW, great find!" Now we got all these guys that were great 3-5 years ago but too worn and torn to be anything close. This has blended with bad drafting every year but 2007 and uncontrollable injury misfortunes that MAKE depth ever so important. As they say, they're in the entertainment business. When they're not winning or making the playoffs I can't agree they're being well managed. Why? Because I've seen our team when Personnel guys like Accorsi and Lombardi had us good enough for post seasons. I'm not GOOD at telling you WHO is out there now because I've never been interested in researching it. I AM good at telling you we've found the RIGHT guys before. We have or I wouldn't be so fond of our 80s memories. Trouble is that's 20-30 years ago now. MAYBE if our owner didn't have to balance the Cleveland Browns with several other hobbies and a Pro Soccer team - he'd have the TIME to get the RIGHT person in here to run the business the RIGHT way.
In 4 years, our BEST divisional record has been 3-3. The other 3 years range from 1 to 2 wins per 6 games. Pass or fail? Everytime I watch us matching up with Pittsburgh - it's like watching a chess match where one contestant is ONLY allowed to attack with pawns while the other is allowed to use all guys the guys. I see the coach with just pawns at a disadvantage so when we change coaches I hope we give him more than just pawns to work with or ZERO changes. Can we agree on that much?
- Tom F.
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6 probowlers....those are the facts and they are undisputed.
I'm glad we have some professional bowlers but we're talking about professional football. Maybe Lerner can bring some athletes over from England so we can say we have pro soccer players too. All kidding aside, have you read what the majority says about Dumb Ass, Braylon Edwards and Kellen Winslow 365 days later? They all got that Vince Young karma after geting pro Bowl on their resumes. Some say they lack the right character as evidenced by their focus and DIVA like tendencies on Sundays
Do you want to straighten out Jeff Fisher with your Pro Bowl logic? Again, Vince Young made the Pro Bowl too. You make it sound like all of our 2008 opponents will give us our losses back and we can be this modern version of the 72 Dolphins you see going undisputed. Only OUR Earl Morral can't tell what color jerseys his receivers are wearing and our version of Paul Warfield can't catch anything touching his hands. BUT, they both made the Pro Bowl 52 weeks ago. Actually, Tom Brady preferred his tee time so Dumb Ass got invited to fill the vacancy. How'd he look anyway?
Just out of curiosity why can RAC only coach talented players in NE and yet when he has ALL this "undisputed" talent in Cleveland - he gets football coaching amnesia? That said, our return game in 2007 had us ranked in elite compnay for average starting field position but that's not REALLY convenient because we have to notice the guy SAVAGE said could NOT replace Northcutt actually upgraded Northcutt. So, shhhhh! We need to whisper on this one.
MAYBE, just maybe, Phil Savage can ONLY handle limited personnel duties when he has a STRONG Supervisor like Ozzie exerting quality control whenever necessary. Then again, this is Cleveland where it was ONLY Chris Palmer's fault we started out with Tim Couch, Courtney Brown, Scott Milanovich over Kurt Warner and Spergon Wynn over Tom Brady. HOW COULD we consider blaming a guy Policy? And why was Policy GOOD in SF and he sucked in Cleveland? Competant Supervisor above him maybe?
You see - these guys go from GREAT Supervisors where success is possible to a chaotic ownership with too many hobbies and 1 too many Pro Sports teams. End result? Culture shock and WHERE are all the talented players you promised me? You think all we gotta do is grab 1 more Coordinator from a perfect environment and put him in Lerner's office without the right Supervision. I wish it were that simple my friend - but it hasn't been yet. We're looking at strike 3 already on the Head Coach thing in just 9 years. This isn't opinion - look at our divisional and overall records since 99. Jimmy Johnson prolly said it best - "it ain't like Butch Davis or Romeo Crennel FORGOT how to coach good football players. I'll stop there." Homers REFUSE this because we're not talking about 1 simple problem solve and they HATE knowing we've overrated the CRAP out of guys like Winslow, Edwards, Anderson, Lewis (today), Stallworth, Fisk, Washington, Stewart, Peek, Jackson, Davis, Williams.
I used to LOVE Winslow but he can't block DEs and he's lost so many steps we're seeing weekly flags for pushing off. After 3-4 knee surgeries and too many staph infections - we've got a fraction of who that kid was. Savage doesn't understand the difference between PRIME and HASBEEN. It's killed us to date. He hasn't been much better at QB when our schedule doesn't have 12 teams averaging 4 wins.
We shouldn't look like this 4 years into a GM's plan and I think it takes two to make a divorce between GM and Head Coach. They BOTH sucked, so all this pretention we're loaded with talent is crazy. Watch our defense and remind me how great anyone besides Rogers looks. I don't see Richard Seymour, Vince Wilfork or Ty Warren upfront even though our group is paid as well.
- Tom F. (Welcome to Oregon State Football where we can beat the BEST team on the planet 1 week and then go give up 65 points to our inner state rivals. And you wonder why this team gives Lummy a stinger? He's a HUGE Phil Savage fan)
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We disagree about Savage....the northcutt thing you keep refering too is not real....we re-signed him before the draft.... Also When Quinn went down for the year...aren't you atleast glad we have a solid backup? The reason we kept DA in the first place was to have two good Qb's if one went down. Wish we would have just gotten a first and third for DA as a rfa and should have signed him to a minimum tender...but then we'd have dorsey at QB and Cribbs(?) as backup.
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Tom, get a grip man. I'm asking reasonable questions here (I think that's different than "nervous questions", but I cant figure out what that is supposed to mean, so...). I agree that Phil has missed on some draft picks. I agree that we havent won the division, have had 1 winning season, etc. But your making absolute judgments on his performance doesnt make sense. Saying he has done a "bad" job only makes sense if you mean it as measured in relation to his peers. So relate it to his peers. If he's so terrible, it should be easy. Roll out your list of GMs that draft better than him consistently. If it is so obvious to not make it worth your time, then just name a handful off the top of your head. If it's right, you dont have to worry about someone checking your facts. You obviously have plenty of time to spend on this, you've devoted about 3,000 words now to NOT answering my ONE question.
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One thing I noticed when I did my draft pick hit rate analysis was how good Ernie Accorsi & Jerry Reese have been at drafting players for the Giants.
In the '05 draft, they were short a 1st and a 5th from the Eli Manning trade (pretty similar to our situation in last year's draft), yet they came out of it with an incredible haul:
- Round 2: Corey Webster - had started off and on at CB for the past few years, but was HUGE in the playoffs last year. Has 3 picks so far this year.
- Round 3: Justin Tuck - 10 sacks last year, 11.5 this year
- Round 4: Brandon Jacobs - Converging on career stat of 5.0 yards per carry; has 11 rushing TD's this season.
- Round 6: Eric Moore - Reserve DE now with St. Louis
Just great stuff.
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One thing I noticed when I did my draft pick hit rate analysis was how good Ernie Accorsi & Jerry Reese have been at drafting players for the Giants.
In the '05 draft, they were short a 1st and a 5th from the Eli Manning trade (pretty similar to our situation in last year's draft), yet they came out of it with an incredible haul:
- Round 2: Corey Webster - had started off and on at CB for the past few years, but was HUGE in the playoffs last year. Has 3 picks so far this year.
- Round 3: Justin Tuck - 10 sacks last year, 11.5 this year
- Round 4: Brandon Jacobs - Converging on career stat of 5.0 yards per carry; has 11 rushing TD's this season.
- Round 6: Eric Moore - Reserve DE now with St. Louis
Just great stuff.
Aloysius said:
One thing I noticed when I did my draft pick hit rate analysis was how good Ernie Accorsi & Jerry Reese have been at drafting players for the Giants.In the '05 draft, they were short a 1st and a 5th from the Eli Manning trade (pretty similar to our situation in last year's draft), yet they came out of it with an incredible haul:
- Round 2: Corey Webster - had started off and on at CB for the past few years, but was HUGE in the playoffs last year. Has 3 picks so far this year.
- Round 3: Justin Tuck - 10 sacks last year, 11.5 this year
- Round 4: Brandon Jacobs - Converging on career stat of 5.0 yards per carry; has 11 rushing TD's this season.
- Round 6: Eric Moore - Reserve DE now with St. Louis
Just great stuff.
Yeah, that was the story of last year's Super Bowl. Really incredible stuff.
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Anyway, I don't think the argument for firing or demoting Savage is that he doesn't draft well. It's that he hasn't done a very good job in the non-scouting aspects of the job: the KW2 situation, the nasty e-mail, throwing Crennel under the bus over the radio, etc.
If anything, the one personnel critique I'd make is that Savage seems to have gone from being too worried about screwing up to being too incautious in thinking he could build a SB winner. With the '05 draft, he was so worried about picking the right guy at #3 that he didn't devote as much attention to scouting the later picks, resulting in a wasted Second Day. And last offseason, he was so convinced that the Browns were on the cusp of great things that he didn't take the picks for DA & swung for home-runs with Donte' Stallworth & Corey Williams. But hindsight is 20/20, and you could explain that away as the growing pains of a young GM.
However, I find it harder to explain away the management/media stuff. It seems like Savage isn't cut out for that part of the job, and maybe the team would be better off if Savage formally handed over those responsibilities to someone else.
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the only question is how well savage would handle being only the director of player personnel. i doubt he'd take it particularly well, seeing as he seems a bit of an egomaniac.
i bet he thinks he's not doing horribly as GM and thinks the PR stuff isn't entirely his fault.
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the only question is how well savage would handle being only the director of player personnel. i doubt he'd take it particularly well, seeing as he seems a bit of an egomaniac.
i bet he thinks he's not doing horribly as GM and thinks the PR stuff isn't entirely his fault.
the only question is how well savage would handle being only the director of player personnel. i doubt he'd take it particularly well, seeing as he seems a bit of an egomaniac.
i bet he thinks he's not doing horribly as GM and thinks the PR stuff isn't entirely his fault.
I think you're right about that, which puts Lerner in a very difficult position.
Adding another element to the story, Lerner's first choice for GM may be available:
There’s a growing sentiment around Foxborough that personnel chief Scott Pioli could be tempted into leaving the Patriots this offseason to take over as general manager for another organization. Although he’s regarded as one of the premier talent evaluators in the league, he has never received nearly the type of credit for the Patriots’ success as his close friend Bill Belichick.
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pioli would be a major coup. he knows how to find guys for the 3-4 and has had great success in new england. if he's feeling underapreciated, i would hope we'd go after him.
i like savage for his talent evaluation, but pioli's even better. he's built champions from nothing in new england. while i know part of that is coaching, he's still been the guy to set the tone for the organization and put together the talent.
having him would be interesting if only to see what he thinks of the current roster.
i also would trust him to pick a great coach, even if it's someone who's failed elsewhere or a complete newbie.
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Tom, get a grip man. I'm asking reasonable questions here (I think that's different than "nervous questions", but I cant figure out what that is supposed to mean, so...). I agree that Phil has missed on some draft picks. I agree that we havent won the division, have had 1 winning season, etc. But your making absolute judgments on his performance doesnt make sense. Saying he has done a "bad" job only makes sense if you mean it as measured in relation to his peers. So relate it to his peers. If he's so terrible, it should be easy. Roll out your list of GMs that draft better than him consistently. If it is so obvious to not make it worth your time, then just name a handful off the top of your head. If it's right, you dont have to worry about someone checking your facts. You obviously have plenty of time to spend on this, you've devoted about 3,000 words now to NOT answering my ONE question.
Tom, get a grip man.
I would have been fine but I noticed your ending with an insult so don't SET the tone and cry when it's returned.
I gave you countles facts backing my opinion so you called them a rant. That's how you argue and I'm not like Heck that feels the need to give you compliments and smiley faces every time he disagrees with your opinion just so you won't throw a fit. Do you want to talk football or play Romper-room?
You keep assuming there is NOT a GM out there and I told you if we've found successful GMs before - they'll be some available in the future.
If Miami had your thinking after 1-15 - where would they be Tupa? So by all means - let's pretend another hotshot coordinator form a utopian environment and a GREAT Supervisor above him comes here and turns washed up players and bad draft picks into perfect draft picks. That being the case, is God available? I LOVE the idea of Cowher BUT when he felt he had an incompetant personnel guy named Donahoe - guess what happened? Donahoe got fired so I'm not sure why there's so much BLIND love and loyalty to Phil. If RAC didn't know how to coach talented players - would he have been a candidate in the first place? Did he REALLY forget every ounce of how to coach GOOD players or does he REALLY have GOOD football players? That doesn't excuse him or make me want him to stay Tupa BUT what is going to make the next guy any better if we only have a 2007 draft worth being happy about in 4 years?
What TALENTED players did you see WINNING either 10-6 ballgame this year? I only need 1 name from a roster I keep hearing has such an abundance. Talk to me: who?
- Tom F. (We know GOOD football players when we see them. The 80s made me LOVE this team. This roster isn't anything like that NOR is the character of the team)
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Great breakdown Flugs. The list of GMs better than Phil is now at an astounding ZERO. You make a great case.
6 Pro Bowlers. 10 wins a year ago. Enough talent to beat the Giants this year despite all the injuries. You cant make the case that there is no talent on this team.
Who do you want to replace Savage? Is there more than 1 or 2 guys available that you would consider, that have a better track record than him? Are there more than a handful in the league that have a better track record? Oops, I'm making you uncomfortable by asking for relevant facts, not just random ones. I apologize. I'll go play romper room (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean) while you spend the rest of the day typing an unresponsive epic.
Honestly, I dont think you do want to replace Phil. Looking back at your first post on this thread, you seem as happy with him as most. His recent drafts were solid and he drafts high character guys more often than not. Now I'm left wondering why you were so upset when I said that people that wanted to replace PS should offer stronger evidence. It didnt even apply to you.
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Awesome post Flugel. When I read that I am instantly hit by the sheer amount of garbage players Phil has brought in through the draft and free agency. He has made a few nice picks, but what GM doesn't? He's below average and coupled with the way he has behaved this year and how he won't fire Romeo, well, in my book, he's garbage.
EDIT: Tupa, what planet are you on bro. Marty could come in and handle business easily.
2009-10 Browns Prediction: 8-8 -
Great breakdown Flugs. The list of GMs better than Phil is now at an astounding ZERO. You make a great case.
6 Pro Bowlers. 10 wins a year ago. Enough talent to beat the Giants this year despite all the injuries. You cant make the case that there is no talent on this team.
Who do you want to replace Savage? Is there more than 1 or 2 guys available that you would consider, that have a better track record than him? Are there more than a handful in the league that have a better track record? Oops, I'm making you uncomfortable by asking for relevant facts, not just random ones. I apologize. I'll go play romper room (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean) while you spend the rest of the day typing an unresponsive epic.
Honestly, I dont think you do want to replace Phil. Looking back at your first post on this thread, you seem as happy with him as most. His recent drafts were solid and he drafts high character guys more often than not. Now I'm left wondering why you were so upset when I said that people that wanted to replace PS should offer stronger evidence. It didnt even apply to you.
Great breakdown Flugs. The list of GMs better than Phil is now at an astounding ZERO. You make a great case.
6 Pro Bowlers. 10 wins a year ago. Enough talent to beat the Giants this year despite all the injuries. You cant make the case that there is no talent on this team.
So again, I have you down for saying Bill Parcells did NOT happen to the 1-15 Miami Dolphins; because it differs from your opinion that there will never be another suitable GM for a program in need. If they used the Tommy Tupa theory they'd still have their heads in the sand justifying 1-15 because the world ran out of GMs. I like my side of this arguement better because I'm really using a RECENT fact to prove there's ALWAYS somebody.
If that one isn't good enough, I'm reading a Lindy's 2008 Preseason football magazine right now that tells me the following on page 56: "Blanc hired first-time General Manager (Thomas Dimitroff), first-time Head Coach (Mike Smith) and signed off on ridding the roster of nearly everybody and anything that reminded him of last season." Again, this would be a FACT showing you GM candidates we don't KNOW about exist for the serious owners to hire. It doesn't matter if I knew who Mike Smith was or Dimitroff was as long as they existed right? That's why I had to laugh and ask "are you serious?" If that was my job and the success of my business was riding on it - I'd give you all the names you needed. Unfortunately I don't live in the multi millionaire's club that does this for a living so I can't tell you names - I can just tell you that you're being absolutely silly for implying GOOD GM candidates don't exist simply because we don't know their names. That's absurd and you know it. SERIOUS owners found the right guys - that's ALL we as fans need to concern ourselves with. Did you even know who Mike Smith was? I'll be honest I didn't. There was a time nobody knew who Bill Polian was either - should Buffalo have adopted the Tupa logic saying if Tom Flugel doesn't KNOW who he is they can't hire him? I'm flattered but don't make a fool of yourself over it.
How about you and I place a wager for all to witness. I'll let you have the side that says there will NEVER be a new NFL GM/Personnel Director hired that gets a team out of transitional chaos efficiently. I'll use the Christopher Columbus approach and tell you the GM world isn't flat so they don't fall off the earth. More specifically, there will be some VERY good GM/Personel Directors to emerge much like a Pioli did in NE and these 2 newbies problem solving wiht grades of A+. You say there won't be another GM. You're very confident with yourself so all I can say about this bet is run it!
The only question I have remaining is how much money do you want to bet me? Put up or whimp out.
- Tom F. (How many of the 8 teams that beat us got handed a loss by Roger Goodell because we had 6 Pro Bowlers from 2007's candyass schedule? And how come Tenn is winning AFTER benching their 2006 Pro Bowl QB? How many guys on our 2002 playoff team made the Pro Bowl?)
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What planet am I on? Phil has been lauded every offseason for his work. Congrats on your 20/20 hindsight, but where was it a year ago, or two? Oh yeah, there is also the fact that most GMs miss with most of their picks; it's the nature of the beast. Alo's high water mark for drafting was around 50%, not 100.
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Show me where I said there was no one Flug. It must be easy to win an argument when you can make up shit to shoot down.
It is possible to improve at the GM position. But the fact that it has happened before doesnt mean it works every time, or even more often than not. You would be happy if Lerner brought in an unknown? You would assume that was improving our chances? You're out of your mind.
Miami brought in BILL PARCELLS. Show me another Bill Parcells and I'll jump on your bandwagon. My point isnt that Phil is irreplaceable, but that it is stupid for people to say he drafts bad just because he misses sometimes. If they want to say he draft poorly, they should be able to show GMs that do a better job. Parcells knows football better than Savage. I am in 100% agreement with that. Pioli/Belichek is better than Savage (though even they miss all the time. Just ask Chad Jackson.) But booting Phil because maybe there is somebody out there who Lerner might pick and could possibly do a marginally better job sounds like a stupid idea to me. Under your reasoning, bad teams should have a revolving door in the front office. Everytime they have a losing season, they should bring in Joe Shmoe to replace him.
There are two points here which have become muddled.
1) Some are arguing that Phil is a bad GM. Showing that he has missed on some draft picks doesnt prove this because everyone misses sometimes. In fact, depending on your criteria, everyone misses most of the time. So be more specific than naming players you dont like.
2) Some people want to replace Phil. If you want to do this, tell me who you want to replace him with. Flugs trusts that Lerner can pick an unknown to turn us around. Forget that it almost never works, Flugs sees where it has once or twice.
I've got to go.
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Well, with the Panthers as my second favorite team, Marty Hurney has had some good drafts. let's look at all of his first rounders.
Julius Peppers
Chris Gamble
Jordan Gross
Thomas Davis
DeAngelo Williams
Jon Beason
Jeff Otah
Jonathon Stewart
All but Stewart start and are big contributors. Stewert will be huge, but he backs DeAngelo Williams at this point. Peppers and Beason are in the top 5 in their positions. Gamble is good. Gross is good. Otah seems to be good. Thomas Davis starts and is decent. Williams is huge.
PS hasn't fared so well.
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