Phil Savage Drafts

Sony Reed

@we-need-tom-tupa said:
My exact words: You've named two or three that you think have outperformed him. Like I said, you just making up arguments to defeat. I'm arguing the same angle as always. Nice try though. Oh, and your two examples consist of less than one full season of track record.
As I was...waiting for you to say something meaningful.

Not trying to get between you and Flugs, but I would say Ozzie Newsome in Baltimore has drafted much better than Savage and turned last years disaster into a potential playoff team this year with a rookie head coach and quarterback.

The NY Giants, Titans, Carolina, Tampa Bay, Jets, Eagles and Green Bay GM's have drafter much lower than Savage and drafted better players and look at the Steelers drafting Woodley and Timmons 2 linebackers better than any defensive player that Savage has drafted in Cleveland.

Flugel

@pl4tinum said:
Awesome post Flugel. When I read that I am instantly hit by the sheer amount of garbage players Phil has brought in through the draft and free agency. He has made a few nice picks, but what GM doesn't? He's below average and coupled with the way he has behaved this year and how he won't fire Romeo, well, in my book, he's garbage.
EDIT: Tupa, what planet are you on bro. Marty could come in and handle business easily.

Thanks Pl4t! Have you tried following what it is Tupa THINKS he's proven to me? I had a dental procedure done and I might have too much codeine in me to follow what his arguement is anymore.

When I'm being asked WHAT GMs are consistently "outperforming" Phil Savage - it's hard to keep a straight face when his personal BEST record in the division is 3-3. If that's not enough, have we ever BEATEN Pittsburgh once since Savage came? I don't CARE what their GM's name is - all I know is there's an evironment there that makes being a Head Coach easy and there is NOT one in Cleveland. Isn't that the HOT topic all over the place right now?

Seeing how Baltimore was 13-3 in 2006 and they're heading back to the playoffs in 2008 if they continue as is - there's 2 GMs just in our own division consistently outperforming Savage. Baltimore's GM's name is Ozzie Newsome. Not sure why the freak it matters if I know who the personnel managers are. If Baltimore is better 2 of the last 3 years I hope the inconvenient truth doesn't lead us into arguing over the definition of consistency because .667 is a good batting average UNLESS it's not what Tupa needs to hear. Then we'll be at war about that too.

Since I've discussed the ONLY franchises worth counting in our own division - where does Phil rank among GMs and consistency? He's consistently worse than Balitmore and Pittsburgh. Have we swept Cincy once since he's been here? So he's dead even with them whether they're good or terrible. Should I find the same comfort Tupa finds in that?

Therefore, after further review Phil Savage is consistently worse than 66.7% of the GMs in our own division and he looks to be tied with the one iin Cincy.

I'm not willing to go back and find how many GMs were better than 6-10 in 2005 or how many were better than 4-12 the next year and I have to believe ALOT are better than 4-8 this year right? Doesn't it look liker ALOT of GMs are doing better consistently?

- Tom F. (Back to the REAL arguement - we don't have ENOUGH playmakers to win ball games like our opponents that consistently beat us do. I got their Pro Bowls right here!)

We need Tom Tupa

@sony-reed said:
Not trying to get between you and Flugs, but I would say Ozzie Newsome in Baltimore has drafted much better than Savage and turned last years disaster into a potential playoff team this year with a rookie head coach and quarterback.
The NY Giants, Titans, Carolina, Tampa Bay, Jets, Eagles and Green Bay GM's have drafter much lower than Savage and drafted better players and look at the Steelers drafting Woodley and Timmons 2 linebackers better than any defensive player that Savage has drafted in Cleveland.

At first glance, here are some facts that weaken your list:

When Phil took Edwards, TB selected Cadillac and Tenn selected Pacman. In round 2, Carolina took Eric Shelton (currently on another team's practice squad). Round 3 picks included Courtney Roby by Tenn, Ryan Moats by Philly, and Sione Pouha by the Jets. Tenn took Roydell Williams in R4, and released their 5th round pick after 1 season. TB has released and re-signed their 5th round practice squad safety a few times now.

The Eagles did find Trent Cole on day 2, but that's the only name that jumps out at me.

In '06 Tenn took VY, the Eagles got Bunkley, the Jets took Klemens in R2...

I dont have time for a more thorough analysis at the moment, but I'll get back to it later if you want.

I would agree that NYG have had an incredible few years in the draft. Baltimore had a couple good picks this year, but misses as much as Phil (day 1 picks include Yamon Figurs, David Pittman, and Dan Cody). I would attribute their turnaround as much to coaching as anything else. Also, they are starting many of the same players as they did 2 years ago when they were 13-3 (with many players drafted during Savage's tenure there). I'd have to take a closer look to say anything definitive about the other teams, but I think it's safe to say all will have a healthy list of misses.

Sony Reed

@jadbf said:
I think it depends on if you are looking for "Great" players, or merely players talented enough to be starters on most NFL rosters. And many others have listed the players that Savage has brought in that helped last years team win those 6 games.
But I wasn't making that argument. infact, if you look, I said I don't care if Savage is fired. The arguement I will continually make is that everytime someone points to the "flavor of the month" team that APPEARS to be turning it around faster than the Browns have. I can point out where that teams situation was different than the Browns when Savage was brought on board, OR i'll preach caution that said team is not as good as they appear this year. I predict Miami has a few years more of pain before they do anything in the playoffs.

And i'll reverse the argument on you. how do you know that Wimbley being a bust with only one move is not a coaching problem? How do you explain the use of guys like Harrison and other young guys throughout the Crennel years?

I also think it's funny that when you show someone the percentages of Savage's Draft picks being on rosters, it's the same as another team's GM. but the arguement becomes, yeah well the players on the other team would start on other teams before ours do. People have no factual basis on that opinion, only thier own opinion. and most of the time, they only really concentrate on the players on the Browns. I go back to my argument I have all the time with people abotu a guy like Phil Dawson. Browns fan watch every kick and every kickoff Dawson makes with huge interest and rightly so because it's thier team. but then they see a guy like Bironas make a big kick on sports center and say "we need a guy like him", even though when you compare statistics, Dawson is as good or better than the other teams kickers.

I personally believe the largest problem on this team is coaching or lack there of. I believe Savage has had his failures in the draft, and he definitely needs to improve on all the other parts of his GM duties, but I would personally keep him so that there is some continued continuity in this organization.

So if I were owner, I'd fire the coach for sure.

I'd see who is out there for both GM and coach, and then make a decision about what to do with Savage.

IF you look to hire a new GM, hire him first and let him pick his own coach.

What Savage has given us is servicable NFL players, no stars but guys good enough to play in the NFL

This is the same Phil who everyone praised for taking Ozzie when we traded down to get Wimbley and the extra pick to get the supposed next NT of the future Baba Oshiwino (SP)

This is the same Savage who passed on Justin Tuck and Brandon Jacobs 2 Pro Bowl players because of his fetish for Oklahoma players in taking the great Antoine Perkins, Savage also passed on Greg Jennings who would look nice in a Browns uniform

The same Savage who passed on Courtland Finnegan one of the top cornerbacks in the game today with the Titans a 7th round draft choice

While speaking of linebackers after D'qwell jackson, Stephen Tullloch starts at MLB for the Titans and is having a Pro Bowl season, Clint Ingram starts for the Jags

Flugel

@jadbf said:
See it's comments like that one that make me wonder how much you really know what you are talking about.
I guarantee you Jackson was not Phil's idea of an ideal LBer. As you see below. Jackson was the 8th LB drafted that year. one of which was Savage reaching for a pass rusher in Wimbley. You don't think Savage would have rather had Ryans, Carpenter, Greenway, or Lawson? ofcourse he would.

7 2 1 33 DeMeco Ryans Texans Alabama

16 3 30 94 Freddie Keiaho Colts San Diego State

19 4 19 116 Stephen Tulloch Titans North Carolina State

20 4 23 120 Jamar Williams Bears Arizona State

Which of those names jump off the page at you as being far and above better than Jackson?

If Jackson is NOT Phil's idea of ideal LBer than why wasn't he drafting MOST talented player available? He COULD have offered bart Scott MORE cake in free agency and solved that problem. He gave Andra Davis a RAISE and WHO does this knowing he will be the STAR of Jamal Lewis' Hall of Fame highlight reels? He might as well present Jamal for being a BIG part of 500 yards rushing in just 6 wonderful quarters vrs us.

Tulloch starts for Tennessee and I mentioned him on my predraft bargain list of LBers I thought would help us out. Keiaho has been solid for Indy everytime I've seen him play.

BTW, Demeco Ryans is BETTER than our first round draft pick from 2006 and he made AFC Defensive Rookie of the Year for being impactful.

In 07, I watched the Steelers add OLB LaMarr Woodley in round 2 and he was an All American at Michigan for a coach that got fired right? Doesn't seem fair that NOW both their OLBers are twice as good as both our OLBers. Kent State's James Harrison wasn't even drafted - he was a free agent.

And while we went after Matt Stewart to enrich our LBers in free agency. Pittsburgh decided to add their version of FA LBer James Farrior.

Their OTHER LBer? Larry Foote from round 4.

I just think Pittsburgh's Personnel Director/GM/Whatever is just flatout BETTER at getting the right guys. And handling EVERYTHING that goes with the job while Phil is in over his head. Is it ALL Phil's fault? NO. He went from a GOOD Supervisor to a BAD one, which did him no favor being a first time GM. Part of that is he had a fallout with Collins though and I can't pretend I know too much about the nitty gritty of it. At the time, I was a Savage rah rah so I took his side because I always bought everything he said.

I always start off the ultimate HOMER because I HATE the alternative. I WANT important guys to succeed. If you looked at my posts 2 years ago - I stuck up for Savage all the time. I even LIKED his ambition in the offseason BUT myhinsight lenses are making me ask these 2 questions:

1) After 4 years do we have enough playmakers to win games consistently?

2) Is Phil equipped for ALL the problem solving necessary?

I don't think so. When we HIRE this NEXT head coach - do we REALLY want to find out Phil was in over his head? Or do we want someone to get the RIGHT players to work with?

You're an extremely LOYAL guy and I like that about you. You can't fake passion and you don't. I'm just thinking outloud with you and PART of this is out of frustration on the season going the way it did. Thanks for your reply JADBF!

- Tom F.

We need Tom Tupa

BTW, Demeco Ryans is BETTER than our first round draft pick from 2006 and he made AFC Defensive Rookie of the Year for being impactful.

And he was off the board when Phil picked DQ. So there were no LBs you would rather have with that draft pick. Even with a couple of years of hindsight, Phil took the best available LB.

Timugen

@we-need-tom-tupa said:
And he was off the board when Phil picked DQ. So there were no LBs you would rather have with that draft pick. Even with a couple of years of hindsight, Phil took the best available LB.

You're a trooper, Tupa. Even knowing that the only responses you're going to get are novels full of rhetoric-laced hyperbole, you continue on.

Hats off to ya, man.

? Aloysius

@flugel said:
In 07, I watched the Steelers add OLB LaMarr Woodley in round 2 and he was an All American at Michigan for a coach that got fired right? Doesn't seem fair that NOW both their OLBers are twice as good as both our OLBers.

Good pick by Pittsburgh. But unless you think trading up for BQ was a mistake, I don't know how you can fault Savage for not drafting Woodley.

Kent State's James Harrison wasn't even drafted - he was a free agent.
And while we went after Matt Stewart to enrich our LBers in free agency. Pittsburgh decided to add their version of FA LBer James Farrior.

Their OTHER LBer? Larry Foote from round 4.

This is equally unfair to Savage. All three of those guys were brought in in 2002, three years before Savage got to Cleveland. EDIT: Farrior was signed in '03

Foote & Harrison had time to mature & develop, whereas Savage needed players who could contribute immediately - that's why he went with Stewart.

If you want to criticize Savage's drafts or FA moves, at least confine yourself to moves Pitt made while he was GM. It's especially unfair to mention Harrison because he took 4-5 years to develop, which is longer than Savage's been on the job.

There may be valid reasons to be disappointed with Savage, but I don't think bringing up stuff that happened in 2002 is at all fair.

? mz.

@jadbf said:
And I actually believe Savage IS IN OVER his head as GM. but not on the drafting and scouting ends. But with all the other aspects a GM needs to handle.

An absolutely astute point JADBF. He has just as many hits and misses, draft-wise, as the average GM does, but I have never really questioned Savage as a GM until he bungled this QB/coach situation this season.

We need Tom Tupa

@jadbf said:
Great points about giving guys time to develop and also, these LBers are being coached well. So in those years it took harrison to develop, he was being coached to play the way the steelers want him to. I just don't see that here

I'm not excusing RAC here, but it is one of the great benefits of having a good team that you can spend time coaching up project players. As it stands, between the holes we still have in the roster and all the injuries we've been dealt, our coaching staff has to concentrate on getting our starters ready to play on Sunday. Success breeds success for so many reasons - continuity, the coaching value of vets for rookies, the ability of coaches to focus on specifics and not have to teach their LBs to tackle or their WRs to catch, etc. Our lack of these things could be as much or more to blame for our lack of round 5-UDFA talent as coaching or scouting. Put differently, I'm not sure Pitt and NE's front offices would fare as well working for the Raiders or Bengals as they have for successful teams looking to make marginal changes each offseason.

Flugel

@we-need-tom-tupa said:
And he was off the board when Phil picked DQ. So there were no LBs you would rather have with that draft pick. Even with a couple of years of hindsight, Phil took the best available LB.

Was he off the board when we picked Wimbley? Who's the BETTER LBer? Who made Rookie of the Year? Meanwhile, who is being mentioned as a bust?

Nothing about Wimbley's COLLEGE days said Lawrence Taylor to justify slating him up in the upperhalf of round 1. Nothing we've seen after his rookie year is imply otherwise either.

- Tom F.

JewDago

seeing as how we likely can't steal dick lebeau to be our DC, what do you guys think of at least stealing their LB coach? keith butler was a seahawk from 1978-87. joined the steelers in 2003. was the browns LB coach from 99-02. was DC at arkansas state in 1998.

i don't know if he could be a decent DC, but i think he's proven himself a great LB coach. why'd we let him get away? could we get him back?

wimbley was a workout warrior. his draft stock skyrocketed at the combine after a decent senior year and strong showing at the senior bowl. he's also a high-character guy, something PS likes outside of RBs who use cell phones to set up coke deals.

Flugel

Aloysius said:
Good pick by Pittsburgh. But unless you think trading up for BQ was a mistake, I don't know how you can fault Savage for not drafting Woodley.
This is equally unfair to Savage. All three of those guys were brought in in 2002, three years before Savage got to Cleveland. EDIT: Farrior was signed in '03

Foote & Harrison had time to mature & develop, whereas Savage needed players who could contribute immediately - that's why he went with Stewart.

If you want to criticize Savage's drafts or FA moves, at least confine yourself to moves Pitt made while he was GM. It's especially unfair to mention Harrison because he took 4-5 years to develop, which is longer than Savage's been on the job.

There may be valid reasons to be disappointed with Savage, but I don't think bringing up stuff that happened in 2002 is at all fair.

They're just EXAMPLES of getting the right guys for the 3-4 vrs those we have. I'm not FAULTING him for what Pitt did 5 years ago. I'm showing how they've done it consistently better.

We've had 4 drafts to bring in better LBers than D'Qwell. I'm sorry but he SUCKS. We could have kept Wali Rainer all this time if that's all we're askign for. He had just as many meangless tackles too far downfield on plays that came right up the middle.

As for the BQ stuff? Did I commit to Derek Anderson or did our BRASS after we drafted Quinn? If we're gonna shelf him and develop another QB for our future the way we just did - we're not going to KNOW if we have the RIGHT QB going into his 3rd season. That being the case, we might as well draft players we plan on putting on the field. Those would be players capable of helping us. If he didn't LIKE Quinn as I got the impression when I kept seeing Dumb Ass trotted out to throw 1 INT after another - I think getting Woodley LAST year and snagging a QB this year could have worked. Seemed like there were some good guys going in late round 1 - early round 2.

I just don't BUY the theory RAC forgot how to coach TALENTED players. Our most talent rich area of the team is special teams so is it ANY wonder they look the BEST coached? Not really IMO. HOWEVER, I didn't think RAC would be so BAD at coaching marginal guys that Savage has consistently brought here. And when his oline draftees and dline draftees and Nick Speegle and David McMillan types can't make the team - our depth is bad.

You know how you can TRULEY tell the teams with the excellent personnel evaluators? The ones that don't sit back and say we have too many injuries. Indy played with a backup Safety, 2 backup corners, they went 3 deep at MLBer, and Jeff Saturday did not suit up on the offensive side. Their D held us to NO touchdowns and scored on our offense in the process even though our D got 3 turnovers to face that banged up D. That is what I want us looking like if someone goes out of the lineup. When Rogers LEAVES the field our defense caves in MOST of the time. Robaire wasn't supposed to be a BIG loss with the arrival of Williams and Shaun Smith being paid what we committed but has Williams REALLY pleased anyone besides the Savage loyalists? Not really.

Meanwhile Denver had some LBer that came in off their bench vrs us and he was EVERYWHERE making plays. They haven't stopped winning in Denver inspite of tons of injuries to their defense. They just beat the Jets in NY.

- Tom F.

Flugel

@jadbf said:
Well NEs Current front office took over a pretty poor team and developed it to where they are now. so I think they might be ok. And as much as you hate to admit it, Pittsburgh's sucess starts with the fact that the rooneys seem to be able to hire the right football people to fit into the identity they want for thier team. SO while the parts in the offices have changed over the years, the general philosophy and plan has remained the same.
That's one reason I tend to want to shy away from making vast "blow it up and start over" changes every 4-5 years when things look down. you neve dvelop that consistancy.

EXACTLY to the first part!!!! Remember the Rooneys FIRED Tom Donahoe from the GM position and they kept the Coach because they already SAW Cowher could coach talented players and develop young prospects. Cowher COMPLAINED when he felt the personnel coming in wasn't up to snuff, which led to Donahoe's firing.

You nailed it though - the higherups got the right people. GOOD committed owners seem to be doing this. I'd LOVE Cowher to come here but if he got drafts like these - he wouldn't exactly see Greg Lloyd, Kevin Greene, Kendrell Bell, Joey Porter, replaced by guys James Harrison, LeMarr Woodley, Larry Foote and James Farrior.

The fact that Savage didn't feel someone like Andra Davis as ned to replace and soon - scares me. Instead, the first thing he did was give him a raise like he was some kind of stud here. I was like "what?"

This is D'Qwell's 3rd season and how many years does it take to see an Inside Backer be a difference maker. Do you really think it needs to be coached out of him? I can't agree that's the RIGHT guy to spend a second round pick on.

We're getting too far into things. Bottom line: are you coming up with excuses when people ask you who the playmakers are? If so, are we REALLY as talented as some are insinuating? When you hold an opponent to 10 points twice and lose both times - you need more talent on offense and you need more talent on the depth chart. Just keep it simple and how long do we want to call this good enough to the tune of "we'll get em next year?"

- Tom F.

? Aloysius

@jewdago said:
seeing as how we likely can't steal dick lebeau to be our DC, what do you guys think of at least stealing their LB coach? keith butler was a seahawk from 1978-87. joined the steelers in 2003. was the browns LB coach from 99-02. was DC at arkansas state in 1998.
i don't know if he could be a decent DC, but i think he's proven himself a great LB coach. why'd we let him get away? could we get him back?

The Steelers wouldn't be required to let him go (only a promotion to HC voids a contract), so I'm not sure we'd be able to get him.

Also, I'm a little bit wary of hiring a guy who's in his early 50's and (as far as I can tell) has never been in the running for a DC job. Maybe he's just a good LB coach, but nothing more.

Flugel

@we-need-tom-tupa said:
I'm not excusing RAC here, but it is one of the great benefits of having a good team that you can spend time coaching up project players. As it stands, between the holes we still have in the roster and all the injuries we've been dealt, our coaching staff has to concentrate on getting our starters ready to play on Sunday. Success breeds success for so many reasons - continuity, the coaching value of vets for rookies, the ability of coaches to focus on specifics and not have to teach their LBs to tackle or their WRs to catch, etc. Our lack of these things could be as much or more to blame for our lack of round 5-UDFA talent as coaching or scouting. Put differently, I'm not sure Pitt and NE's front offices would fare as well working for the Raiders or Bengals as they have for successful teams looking to make marginal changes each offseason.

I can work with this because I agree with alot of it. Keep in mind, by the time RAC was hired well into February - it's not like all the BEST assistants were still available so we knew there would be some quality improvements at potential places like OC and DC.

What sort of concerns me is Savage gives Granthom a raise after we ranked 31st against the run for his first 2 years. Then we learn he was undermining the head coach in front of players and other coaches. As a GM - you HAVE to know whether or not to raise a guy or not. Andra Davis? I couldn't believe that.

The point I'm trying to make to alot of people was RAC was hired because our owner thought this guy is very good at coaching GOOD players at NE. His supervisor BB had glowing endorsement and the players like Bruschi all had coments about what a great DC he was. Therefore, I'm left thinking if we have the right GM - this is gonna work. It hasn't or we'd be talking about who made the plays yesterday and other weeks. We're not.

In a way, I feel BAD for Savage because he went from a GREAT Supervisor to this as did RAC. BOTH guys have had better days and they both might find a better environment. I don't think this is the ideal place for either guy.

We'll see. Cowher excites me because I think he's good enough to overcome a younger GM like Savage. At least I think they could be more on the same page.

Maybe we can trade Winslow or someone that's highly thought of but doesn't look like they have better days ahead. I don't know the answers. I just don't think our ONLY solve all is changing head coaches for the 4th time since 99. We HAVE to change more than the Head Coach.

[b]- Tom F.[/b]

JewDago

yeah, guess so. who's an up and comer for DC?

We need Tom Tupa

We always end up back on the Andra Davis contract. I agree that he is overpaid and that we all knew he was overpaid at the time. The problem is that we needed to overpay to keep him, and there was no replacement available. The ILB free agents that year were:

1) Cato June

2) Ronald McKinnon

3) nobody else of any note that I can find

What choice did we have, let him go and open up yet another gaping hole in the roster?

Flugel

@jadbf said:
And here is where we greatly disagree Tom. I believe what has be proven here is Crennel was a good DC under a great HC in Bellicheck.
we can go around and around on this. You believe it's an overall lack ot talent. I believe it's a lack of good coaching getting the most out of the talent.

Is Savage the best GM in the game? of course not. But IMHO, he's much less of a problem than the coaching.

I can work with alot of this too Tupa. I AGREE RAC had a great Supervisor in NE and I've said that many times. I said he went from having a great Supervisor to not having a strong Supervisor. He also had very talented players in his front 7 so how hard was coaching technique and things these guys were already great at?

I try to look at what facets of our team are most talent-rich for the unit. Let's use STs since we ranked #1 in the AFC in average starting field position in 2007. In that facet, we looked very well coached and much improved. RAC was a STs coach at 1 stage of his career and I think that's one area he doesn't SUCK at. In college he played Offensive Tackle so I think the guy knows alot and has a ton of experience coaching. Doesn't mean he's head coaching material so I agree with your disappointment in him overall.

Believe it or not, I never said I thought he was doing a great job coaching here. I've said numerous times I don't mind seeing him go. I'm just trying to inform people I don't think it's ALL the Head Coach being wrong with this team. I think it's 50% RAC and 50% Savage. I don't think RAC deserved a raise and neither did Granthom when he got his. These are BAD decisions by Savage. My biggest question about the raises came when he thought it was a must to lock upp Andra Davis. That's the BIGGESt thing that got me wondering but in the beginning I was such a Savage fan I thought it was a mulligan. Well I think all our LBers are mulligans when they need to be IMPACT players for the 3-4 scheme IMO.

People bring up 6 Pro Bowlers but Winslow and Pontbriand weren't brought here by Savage. 2 Pro Bowlers are STs guys which look well coached but STs don't see the field as much as the regulars on O and D. Joe Thomas & Braylon Edwards were #3 overall picks. Edwards pretty much reversed all his good from 07 in 08. He looks terrified about getting hit so is this coaching or mental/character? DA didn't get voted into the Pro Bowl - he was a substitute for someone that didn't want to go (Tom Brady). I think Winslow got added the same way because he was actually behind Gates and Gonzalez in the voting. If I'm wrong on that let me know. KW looks like he's lost considerable speed in 2008 due to the infection and another off season knee injury. He's had multiple operations since we drafted him and I'm seeing pushoff flags on him almost every week now. ALOT changed in 1 calendar year here. Fans are frustrated with DA and Edwards and even Winslow to an extent. Last significant change is Lewis showed up 15-20 pounds lighter in 07 and he gaioned them all back in 08. He's back to the guy Baltimore got tired of.

- Tom F. (I'd like to see a new HC and GM but if we got Cowher - I'd feel better about things)

Pumpkin Eater

Aloysius said:
That's true.
Then again, you also have to wonder how many of our picks haven't developed because the coaching staff has poorly coached or underutilized them. Harrison's a good example of the latter, and I know that some people here think Wimbley's being held back by poor coaching (I'm not sure about that).

Hopefully we will find out next year with a new coach and staff.