Phil Savage Drafts

[Flugel]

@jadbf said:

See it's comments like that one that make me wonder how much you really know what you are talking about.

I guarantee you Jackson was not Phil's idea of an ideal LBer. As you see below. Jackson was the 8th LB drafted that year. one of which was Savage reaching for a pass rusher in Wimbley. You don't think Savage would have rather had Ryans, Carpenter, Greenway, or Lawson? ofcourse he would.

7 2 1 33 DeMeco Ryans Texans Alabama

16 3 30 94 Freddie Keiaho Colts San Diego State

19 4 19 116 Stephen Tulloch Titans North Carolina State

20 4 23 120 Jamar Williams Bears Arizona State

Which of those names jump off the page at you as being far and above better than Jackson?

If Jackson is NOT Phil's idea of ideal LBer than why wasn't he drafting MOST talented player available? He COULD have offered bart Scott MORE cake in free agency and solved that problem. He gave Andra Davis a RAISE and WHO does this knowing he will be the STAR of Jamal Lewis' Hall of Fame highlight reels? He might as well present Jamal for being a BIG part of 500 yards rushing in just 6 wonderful quarters vrs us.

Tulloch starts for Tennessee and I mentioned him on my predraft bargain list of LBers I thought would help us out. Keiaho has been solid for Indy everytime I've seen him play.

BTW, Demeco Ryans is BETTER than our first round draft pick from 2006 and he made AFC Defensive Rookie of the Year for being impactful.

In 07, I watched the Steelers add OLB LaMarr Woodley in round 2 and he was an All American at Michigan for a coach that got fired right? Doesn't seem fair that NOW both their OLBers are twice as good as both our OLBers. Kent State's James Harrison wasn't even drafted - he was a free agent.

And while we went after Matt Stewart to enrich our LBers in free agency. Pittsburgh decided to add their version of FA LBer James Farrior.

Their OTHER LBer? Larry Foote from round 4.

I just think Pittsburgh's Personnel Director/GM/Whatever is just flatout BETTER at getting the right guys. And handling EVERYTHING that goes with the job while Phil is in over his head. Is it ALL Phil's fault? NO. He went from a GOOD Supervisor to a BAD one, which did him no favor being a first time GM. Part of that is he had a fallout with Collins though and I can't pretend I know too much about the nitty gritty of it. At the time, I was a Savage rah rah so I took his side because I always bought everything he said.

I always start off the ultimate HOMER because I HATE the alternative. I WANT important guys to succeed. If you looked at my posts 2 years ago - I stuck up for Savage all the time. I even LIKED his ambition in the offseason BUT myhinsight lenses are making me ask these 2 questions:

1) After 4 years do we have enough playmakers to win games consistently?

2) Is Phil equipped for ALL the problem solving necessary?

I don't think so. When we HIRE this NEXT head coach - do we REALLY want to find out Phil was in over his head? Or do we want someone to get the RIGHT players to work with?

You're an extremely LOYAL guy and I like that about you. You can't fake passion and you don't. I'm just thinking outloud with you and PART of this is out of frustration on the season going the way it did. Thanks for your reply JADBF!

- Tom F.

[We need Tom Tupa]

BTW, Demeco Ryans is BETTER than our first round draft pick from 2006 and he made AFC Defensive Rookie of the Year for being impactful.

And he was off the board when Phil picked DQ. So there were no LBs you would rather have with that draft pick. Even with a couple of years of hindsight, Phil took the best available LB.

[Timugen]

@we-need-tom-tupa said:

And he was off the board when Phil picked DQ. So there were no LBs you would rather have with that draft pick. Even with a couple of years of hindsight, Phil took the best available LB.

You're a trooper, Tupa. Even knowing that the only responses you're going to get are novels full of rhetoric-laced hyperbole, you continue on.

Hats off to ya, man.

[Aloysius]

@flugel said:

In 07, I watched the Steelers add OLB LaMarr Woodley in round 2 and he was an All American at Michigan for a coach that got fired right? Doesn't seem fair that NOW both their OLBers are twice as good as both our OLBers.

Good pick by Pittsburgh. But unless you think trading up for BQ was a mistake, I don't know how you can fault Savage for not drafting Woodley.

Kent State's James Harrison wasn't even drafted - he was a free agent.

And while we went after Matt Stewart to enrich our LBers in free agency. Pittsburgh decided to add their version of FA LBer James Farrior.

Their OTHER LBer? Larry Foote from round 4.

This is equally unfair to Savage. All three of those guys were brought in in 2002, three years before Savage got to Cleveland. EDIT: Farrior was signed in '03

Foote & Harrison had time to mature & develop, whereas Savage needed players who could contribute immediately - that's why he went with Stewart.

If you want to criticize Savage's drafts or FA moves, at least confine yourself to moves Pitt made while he was GM. It's especially unfair to mention Harrison because he took 4-5 years to develop, which is longer than Savage's been on the job.

There may be valid reasons to be disappointed with Savage, but I don't think bringing up stuff that happened in 2002 is at all fair.

[mz.]

@jadbf said:

And I actually believe Savage IS IN OVER his head as GM. but not on the drafting and scouting ends. But with all the other aspects a GM needs to handle.

An absolutely astute point JADBF. He has just as many hits and misses, draft-wise, as the average GM does, but I have never really questioned Savage as a GM until he bungled this QB/coach situation this season.

[We need Tom Tupa]

@jadbf said:

Great points about giving guys time to develop and also, these LBers are being coached well. So in those years it took harrison to develop, he was being coached to play the way the steelers want him to. I just don't see that here

I'm not excusing RAC here, but it is one of the great benefits of having a good team that you can spend time coaching up project players. As it stands, between the holes we still have in the roster and all the injuries we've been dealt, our coaching staff has to concentrate on getting our starters ready to play on Sunday. Success breeds success for so many reasons - continuity, the coaching value of vets for rookies, the ability of coaches to focus on specifics and not have to teach their LBs to tackle or their WRs to catch, etc. Our lack of these things could be as much or more to blame for our lack of round 5-UDFA talent as coaching or scouting. Put differently, I'm not sure Pitt and NE's front offices would fare as well working for the Raiders or Bengals as they have for successful teams looking to make marginal changes each offseason.

[Flugel]

@we-need-tom-tupa said:

And he was off the board when Phil picked DQ. So there were no LBs you would rather have with that draft pick. Even with a couple of years of hindsight, Phil took the best available LB.

Was he off the board when we picked Wimbley? Who's the BETTER LBer? Who made Rookie of the Year? Meanwhile, who is being mentioned as a bust?

Nothing about Wimbley's COLLEGE days said Lawrence Taylor to justify slating him up in the upperhalf of round 1. Nothing we've seen after his rookie year is imply otherwise either.

- Tom F.

[JewDago]

seeing as how we likely can't steal dick lebeau to be our DC, what do you guys think of at least stealing their LB coach? keith butler was a seahawk from 1978-87. joined the steelers in 2003. was the browns LB coach from 99-02. was DC at arkansas state in 1998.

i don't know if he could be a decent DC, but i think he's proven himself a great LB coach. why'd we let him get away? could we get him back?

wimbley was a workout warrior. his draft stock skyrocketed at the combine after a decent senior year and strong showing at the senior bowl. he's also a high-character guy, something PS likes outside of RBs who use cell phones to set up coke deals.

[Flugel]

Aloysius said:

Good pick by Pittsburgh. But unless you think trading up for BQ was a mistake, I don't know how you can fault Savage for not drafting Woodley.

This is equally unfair to Savage. All three of those guys were brought in in 2002, three years before Savage got to Cleveland. EDIT: Farrior was signed in '03

Foote & Harrison had time to mature & develop, whereas Savage needed players who could contribute immediately - that's why he went with Stewart.

If you want to criticize Savage's drafts or FA moves, at least confine yourself to moves Pitt made while he was GM. It's especially unfair to mention Harrison because he took 4-5 years to develop, which is longer than Savage's been on the job.

There may be valid reasons to be disappointed with Savage, but I don't think bringing up stuff that happened in 2002 is at all fair.

They're just EXAMPLES of getting the right guys for the 3-4 vrs those we have. I'm not FAULTING him for what Pitt did 5 years ago. I'm showing how they've done it consistently better.

We've had 4 drafts to bring in better LBers than D'Qwell. I'm sorry but he SUCKS. We could have kept Wali Rainer all this time if that's all we're askign for. He had just as many meangless tackles too far downfield on plays that came right up the middle.

As for the BQ stuff? Did I commit to Derek Anderson or did our BRASS after we drafted Quinn? If we're gonna shelf him and develop another QB for our future the way we just did - we're not going to KNOW if we have the RIGHT QB going into his 3rd season. That being the case, we might as well draft players we plan on putting on the field. Those would be players capable of helping us. If he didn't LIKE Quinn as I got the impression when I kept seeing Dumb Ass trotted out to throw 1 INT after another - I think getting Woodley LAST year and snagging a QB this year could have worked. Seemed like there were some good guys going in late round 1 - early round 2.

I just don't BUY the theory RAC forgot how to coach TALENTED players. Our most talent rich area of the team is special teams so is it ANY wonder they look the BEST coached? Not really IMO. HOWEVER, I didn't think RAC would be so BAD at coaching marginal guys that Savage has consistently brought here. And when his oline draftees and dline draftees and Nick Speegle and David McMillan types can't make the team - our depth is bad.

You know how you can TRULEY tell the teams with the excellent personnel evaluators? The ones that don't sit back and say we have too many injuries. Indy played with a backup Safety, 2 backup corners, they went 3 deep at MLBer, and Jeff Saturday did not suit up on the offensive side. Their D held us to NO touchdowns and scored on our offense in the process even though our D got 3 turnovers to face that banged up D. That is what I want us looking like if someone goes out of the lineup. When Rogers LEAVES the field our defense caves in MOST of the time. Robaire wasn't supposed to be a BIG loss with the arrival of Williams and Shaun Smith being paid what we committed but has Williams REALLY pleased anyone besides the Savage loyalists? Not really.

Meanwhile Denver had some LBer that came in off their bench vrs us and he was EVERYWHERE making plays. They haven't stopped winning in Denver inspite of tons of injuries to their defense. They just beat the Jets in NY.

- Tom F.

[Flugel]

@jadbf said:

Well NEs Current front office took over a pretty poor team and developed it to where they are now. so I think they might be ok. And as much as you hate to admit it, Pittsburgh's sucess starts with the fact that the rooneys seem to be able to hire the right football people to fit into the identity they want for thier team. SO while the parts in the offices have changed over the years, the general philosophy and plan has remained the same.

That's one reason I tend to want to shy away from making vast "blow it up and start over" changes every 4-5 years when things look down. you neve dvelop that consistancy.

EXACTLY to the first part!!!! Remember the Rooneys FIRED Tom Donahoe from the GM position and they kept the Coach because they already SAW Cowher could coach talented players and develop young prospects. Cowher COMPLAINED when he felt the personnel coming in wasn't up to snuff, which led to Donahoe's firing.

You nailed it though - the higherups got the right people. GOOD committed owners seem to be doing this. I'd LOVE Cowher to come here but if he got drafts like these - he wouldn't exactly see Greg Lloyd, Kevin Greene, Kendrell Bell, Joey Porter, replaced by guys James Harrison, LeMarr Woodley, Larry Foote and James Farrior.

The fact that Savage didn't feel someone like Andra Davis as ned to replace and soon - scares me. Instead, the first thing he did was give him a raise like he was some kind of stud here. I was like "what?"

This is D'Qwell's 3rd season and how many years does it take to see an Inside Backer be a difference maker. Do you really think it needs to be coached out of him? I can't agree that's the RIGHT guy to spend a second round pick on.

We're getting too far into things. Bottom line: are you coming up with excuses when people ask you who the playmakers are? If so, are we REALLY as talented as some are insinuating? When you hold an opponent to 10 points twice and lose both times - you need more talent on offense and you need more talent on the depth chart. Just keep it simple and how long do we want to call this good enough to the tune of "we'll get em next year?"

- Tom F.

[Aloysius]

@jewdago said:

seeing as how we likely can't steal dick lebeau to be our DC, what do you guys think of at least stealing their LB coach? keith butler was a seahawk from 1978-87. joined the steelers in 2003. was the browns LB coach from 99-02. was DC at arkansas state in 1998.

i don't know if he could be a decent DC, but i think he's proven himself a great LB coach. why'd we let him get away? could we get him back?

The Steelers wouldn't be required to let him go (only a promotion to HC voids a contract), so I'm not sure we'd be able to get him.

Also, I'm a little bit wary of hiring a guy who's in his early 50's and (as far as I can tell) has never been in the running for a DC job. Maybe he's just a good LB coach, but nothing more.

[Flugel]

@we-need-tom-tupa said:

I'm not excusing RAC here, but it is one of the great benefits of having a good team that you can spend time coaching up project players. As it stands, between the holes we still have in the roster and all the injuries we've been dealt, our coaching staff has to concentrate on getting our starters ready to play on Sunday. Success breeds success for so many reasons - continuity, the coaching value of vets for rookies, the ability of coaches to focus on specifics and not have to teach their LBs to tackle or their WRs to catch, etc. Our lack of these things could be as much or more to blame for our lack of round 5-UDFA talent as coaching or scouting. Put differently, I'm not sure Pitt and NE's front offices would fare as well working for the Raiders or Bengals as they have for successful teams looking to make marginal changes each offseason.

I can work with this because I agree with alot of it. Keep in mind, by the time RAC was hired well into February - it's not like all the BEST assistants were still available so we knew there would be some quality improvements at potential places like OC and DC.

What sort of concerns me is Savage gives Granthom a raise after we ranked 31st against the run for his first 2 years. Then we learn he was undermining the head coach in front of players and other coaches. As a GM - you HAVE to know whether or not to raise a guy or not. Andra Davis? I couldn't believe that.

The point I'm trying to make to alot of people was RAC was hired because our owner thought this guy is very good at coaching GOOD players at NE. His supervisor BB had glowing endorsement and the players like Bruschi all had coments about what a great DC he was. Therefore, I'm left thinking if we have the right GM - this is gonna work. It hasn't or we'd be talking about who made the plays yesterday and other weeks. We're not.

In a way, I feel BAD for Savage because he went from a GREAT Supervisor to this as did RAC. BOTH guys have had better days and they both might find a better environment. I don't think this is the ideal place for either guy.

We'll see. Cowher excites me because I think he's good enough to overcome a younger GM like Savage. At least I think they could be more on the same page.

Maybe we can trade Winslow or someone that's highly thought of but doesn't look like they have better days ahead. I don't know the answers. I just don't think our ONLY solve all is changing head coaches for the 4th time since 99. We HAVE to change more than the Head Coach.

[b]- Tom F.[/b]

[JewDago]

yeah, guess so. who's an up and comer for DC?

[We need Tom Tupa]

We always end up back on the Andra Davis contract. I agree that he is overpaid and that we all knew he was overpaid at the time. The problem is that we needed to overpay to keep him, and there was no replacement available. The ILB free agents that year were:

1) Cato June

2) Ronald McKinnon

3) nobody else of any note that I can find

What choice did we have, let him go and open up yet another gaping hole in the roster?

[Flugel]

@jadbf said:

And here is where we greatly disagree Tom. I believe what has be proven here is Crennel was a good DC under a great HC in Bellicheck.

we can go around and around on this. You believe it's an overall lack ot talent. I believe it's a lack of good coaching getting the most out of the talent.

Is Savage the best GM in the game? of course not. But IMHO, he's much less of a problem than the coaching.

I can work with alot of this too Tupa. I AGREE RAC had a great Supervisor in NE and I've said that many times. I said he went from having a great Supervisor to not having a strong Supervisor. He also had very talented players in his front 7 so how hard was coaching technique and things these guys were already great at?

I try to look at what facets of our team are most talent-rich for the unit. Let's use STs since we ranked #1 in the AFC in average starting field position in 2007. In that facet, we looked very well coached and much improved. RAC was a STs coach at 1 stage of his career and I think that's one area he doesn't SUCK at. In college he played Offensive Tackle so I think the guy knows alot and has a ton of experience coaching. Doesn't mean he's head coaching material so I agree with your disappointment in him overall.

Believe it or not, I never said I thought he was doing a great job coaching here. I've said numerous times I don't mind seeing him go. I'm just trying to inform people I don't think it's ALL the Head Coach being wrong with this team. I think it's 50% RAC and 50% Savage. I don't think RAC deserved a raise and neither did Granthom when he got his. These are BAD decisions by Savage. My biggest question about the raises came when he thought it was a must to lock upp Andra Davis. That's the BIGGESt thing that got me wondering but in the beginning I was such a Savage fan I thought it was a mulligan. Well I think all our LBers are mulligans when they need to be IMPACT players for the 3-4 scheme IMO.

People bring up 6 Pro Bowlers but Winslow and Pontbriand weren't brought here by Savage. 2 Pro Bowlers are STs guys which look well coached but STs don't see the field as much as the regulars on O and D. Joe Thomas & Braylon Edwards were #3 overall picks. Edwards pretty much reversed all his good from 07 in 08. He looks terrified about getting hit so is this coaching or mental/character? DA didn't get voted into the Pro Bowl - he was a substitute for someone that didn't want to go (Tom Brady). I think Winslow got added the same way because he was actually behind Gates and Gonzalez in the voting. If I'm wrong on that let me know. KW looks like he's lost considerable speed in 2008 due to the infection and another off season knee injury. He's had multiple operations since we drafted him and I'm seeing pushoff flags on him almost every week now. ALOT changed in 1 calendar year here. Fans are frustrated with DA and Edwards and even Winslow to an extent. Last significant change is Lewis showed up 15-20 pounds lighter in 07 and he gaioned them all back in 08. He's back to the guy Baltimore got tired of.

- Tom F. (I'd like to see a new HC and GM but if we got Cowher - I'd feel better about things)

[Pumpkin Eater]

Aloysius said:

That's true.

Then again, you also have to wonder how many of our picks haven't developed because the coaching staff has poorly coached or underutilized them. Harrison's a good example of the latter, and I know that some people here think Wimbley's being held back by poor coaching (I'm not sure about that).

Hopefully we will find out next year with a new coach and staff.

[Flugel]

@jadbf said:

Tom,

Like you I enjoy a good debate. and I guess my biggest point to you would be, one thing that bothers me most on most message board is every poster attempts to make thier point with over the top statements like the one you made about Savage and Jackson, and then they try and prove themselves right in anway possible, and usually are very loathe to admit they were wrong. Instead of having rational discussions of thier points.

Over the top on D'Qwell Jackson? Look, you can LOVE him because you have all this blind loyalty and trust with Phil Savage's eye for talent BUT I feel very comfortabl saying a 5'9" running back like Ray Rice should NEVER put him on his back during an X-stunt blitz where Jackson wasn't even touched or chipped by an olinemen. That wasn't the first time I've seen a RB, not to be confused with a FB, planting him on his back.

I've never said I'm thrilled with Jackson to you only to coverup anything. I think when some people hear people venting about Savage WITH RAC - they get furious because if they're BIG homers - they need it to be JUST RAC.

You guys are itemizing every draft slot like if we took Quinn in that first round we couldn't have Woodley instead in round 2 instead. Here's my problem with that - we drafted Quinn to be a freakin mannequin watching a DUMB QB throw countless INTs and make countless mistakes. After 2 years, we barely have analysis. Meanwhile, I think Woodley is somewhere close to 10 sacks give or take. I LIKED the Quinn pick but I say that in thinking our brass was hoping he would become Dan Marino or almost Dan Marino based on losing that year's second and the follwing year's first. so how did they hyandle it? When I see THAT kind of commitment from the front office - there's expectations so training our version of Scot Mitchell instead was assinine because it did INDEED cost us good players. And as much as you want to think a Head Coach OWNS the power in determining WHO is the franchise QB - I can assure MOST GMs want a very stroing voice in that determination. All these people telling me Savage was handcuffed about who starts at Qb - want to tell me he is the RIGHT GM for us?

Corporate America doesn't work that way. If your boss has a very important project he wants to work - you don't go against that especially if the alternativeis as ineffective as DA continued to be starting late November of 07.

I've NEVER said I wanted RAC to stay either. I just argued he was a GOOD coach when he had a GREAT Supervisor and GREAT talent to work with. If people read his resume, he's been a STs coach before and we had 2 guys that were VOTED to the Pro Bowl from the STs because we had a conference best average starting field position in 2007. My point? It's prolly our most talent-rich position and that facet looked well coached.

In close ball games, you need playmakers to be the difference. We lost two games 10-6 and lost a few leads late in the game because the opponents made more BIG plays. Meanwhile, when DA wasn't turning the ball over for TDs - Winslow and Edwards were dropping critical passes. Are they overrated? I'm being honest when I say Winslow doesn't look like he can run under a 4.9 right now due to the 3-4 surgeries. Edwards is petrified to get hit. Stallworth isn't doing jack. Lewis has gained back that 15-20 pounds he lost before our 2007 training camp and it shows. There's a guy that was running low 4.3s and rumored to be in the high 4.2s coming into the league. He looks like a 4.6 or a 4.7 right now. He sees the hole and can't get there before it closes. Shaffer got embrassed by Mathis with the 2 sacks and the 1 time Freeney had the sack he had Shaff beaten again and scooped the ball with nobody close enough to tackle him. Fraley was DEMOTED in Philly when he was our best option 3 years ago.

Are we REALLY just a GREAT football team waiting for the right Head Coach or do we have issues on both sides of the ball from a personnel thing? I'm pretty comfortable in saying we have issues on both sides of the ball because ALL teams have injuries and this is the AREA your GM needs to shine in. The Colts AND Denver have been ravaged by injuries and they've got 3rd string LBers looking like they'd upgrade our LBers. BTW, we played 4-2 last Sunday for those counting guys with a hand down up front. I actually liked the scheme I saw for a change.

Everybody gets REALLY pissed if we dare hold a GM accountable here. I don't think this is the place for Savage because a YOUNG GM like him NEEDS a strong Supervisor. He got Collins fired so who is Supervisor that gives him the voice of experience? If Cowher came here and Savage was asked to give up his personnel responsibilities - do you really think he'd want to stay?

I KNOW change sucks but the 4th year of a plan is 4-8 regardless of excuses. We know RAC is gone but what if Cowher asks to see some film before deciding HOW MUCH responsibility he wanted to demand? Here's another thing, if Cowher DOES come here with Savage staying on as is and all of a sudden were still just not winning enough games - is THAT what it would take for people to believe our Personnel Director/GM just isn't cutting it? Before you get impatient with that - how many Head Coaches will the next hiring bring us since 1999? NOBODY thought Policy did a bad job and THAT is my angle on all this is that we scapegpoat. "After Carthon gets fired - we're all set!" Really? Were we? Why not? Charlie Frye was our Dilfer upgrade. That's why. That ain't the all the Head Coach and people telling me it is are the ones spinning it. I BECAME the biggest Charlie Frye fan you've ever seen because that's ALL we were given. Watching DA turn into Trent Dilfer, I've taken a similar path PRAYING Quinn is "it." 2 years = fractional assessment and not nearly enough reps. Inexcusbale IMO.

- Tom F. (I'm really disappointed we have to close every single regular season being let down from those running the franchise. Can't fake it - or think it's only the Coach. It's a TEAM effort on the suck at the top. Trust me!)

[pl4tinum]

We need Marty like nobody else's business.

Have him bring his whole damn family in here and fix this mess.

[Flugel]

@jadbf said:

NO and once again. What I was commenting on that you decided to take WAAAAY WAAAY WAAY out of context, was your comment that "D'Qwell Jackson is Savages idea of the ideal linebacker".

That statement is so over the top it's not even funny. As I proved to you. Jackson was not his ideal choice, but what savage thought was the best linebacker left in that draft, and linebacker was a position of need for this team.

So let me get this straight because PHIL O'SAVAGELY speaking, it sounds outrageous. You're saying you draft a LBer near the tippy top of round 2 because he's NOT your ideal 3-4 LBer? That's gonna win you ALOT of football games. What happened to drafting the BEST guy available instead of need?

You also rationalized giving Andra Davis a hefty raise before convicting ME of making over the top statements. I'm sorry but 2-3 years of sweet nothings from #54 and FINALLY re-doing the contract to lower some of the raise did NOT erase the reality of knee-jerk and blind commitment to a LBer that stinks. Take a look on your VCR or Tivo at the 2 LBers that started for us at Buffalo. You'll only see them at the introductions because they were nowhere to be found most of the night on my tv screen.

I've been a Head Coach at the high school level for a team that only lost 2 games so I KNOW good football players when I see them especially on the oline and at LBer. I also worked for the Tampa Bay Bucs when they had their FIRST good season in 1997. We don't have a Derrick Brooks here or a Hardy Nickerson. Neither guy was going to be WHO they became BECAUSE of the Coach. They were STUDS before they wore a Bucs uniform. Jon Gruden wasn't a BETTER Coach than Tony Dungy - he had a BETTER QB so they played with more leads AND margin of error than Dilfer was capable of getting Dungy. When you play with leads on defense - opposing offenses are as predictable as you'd like them to be in the 2nd half (ie; our NY Giant W). When Dungy got Manning for his QB - he was teaching the SAME exact principles, techniques and schemes he taught in Tampa. He just FINALLY got that margin of error GOOD QBs provide their defenses and vice versa.

Do the Steelers SUCK now that Cowher is gone? Why not? Not that this is the rule BUT did the Ravens even NEED Brian Billick to win the Superbowl? Not really. And Jon Gruden's Superbowl W was actually an outcome where his defense scored 4 of the TDs. Was he BETTER at teaching defense to talented defenders? Hell no! Both Coaches had Monte Kiffen as their DC. Guys like Herm Edwards, Rod Marinelli and Lovie Smith were never DCs in Tampa. They were position coaches.

When I think of our overall talent level as I've seen so MANY opposing defenses scoring critical TDs on our offense - the first question I ask myself is: 1) Besides the Giants game WHEN have we ever seen our defense scoring in a close game in the last 4 years? That's being a playmaker. That Denver game BEGGED for just 1 guy to make a play on defense. Just 1 and yet they were the team with MORE injuries on their defense just like Indy was. When those teams' backups look as good or better than our starters - I QUESTION our overall talent.

Like I've said so many times, in the 80s I was constantly saying "wow, this guy is a steal." I say this about Cribbs and I said it about Davon Holly but that's about it. I think you have strong emotional ties to Phil Savage clouding your judgement. I think BOTH the Head Coach and the GM gotta go. I haven't waivered on that just because I said RAC didn't look like he sucked at coaching when he had a GREAT Supervisor and talented group to coach. Phil's first interview he said he was going to improve the draft and continuity. We still count FAR too much on FAs and our depth sucks. There's only 1 lineman (#3 overall) on either side of the ball drafted by Phil in 4 years that's good enough to participate in games on Sundays. You think it's terrific - I think it's killed us to date. We agree to disagree. This conversation started with me complimenting you but the more you think you've educated me the less I can give you credit for.

- Tom F. (This started with me complimenting you. However, you have a dying interest for this situation to be exclusively RAC sucking and I wish it was that easy but it's not. Phil's 1st speech was the draft is why he is here and all you can show me are Josh Cribbs, 2 #3s overall, Eric Wright and who else tearing it up after 4 years?)

[d531]

@flugel said:

So let me get this straight because PHIL O'SAVAGELY speaking, it sounds outrageous. You're saying you draft a LBer near the tippy top of round 2 because he's NOT your ideal 3-4 LBer? That's gonna win you ALOT of football games. What happened to drafting the BEST guy available instead of need?

You also rationalized giving Andra Davis a hefty raise before convicting ME of making over the top statements. I'm sorry but 2-3 years of sweet nothings from #54 and FINALLY re-doing the contract to lower some of the raise did NOT erase the reality of knee-jerk and blind commitment to a LBer that stinks. Take a look on your VCR or Tivo at the 2 LBers that started for us at Buffalo. You'll only see them at the introductions because they were nowhere to be found most of the night on my tv screen.

I've been a Head Coach at the high school level for a team that only lost 2 games so I KNOW good football players when I see them especially on the oline and at LBer. I also worked for the Tampa Bay Bucs when they had their FIRST good season in 1997. We don't have a Derrick Brooks here or a Hardy Nickerson. Neither guy was going to be WHO they became BECAUSE of the Coach. They were STUDS before they wore a Bucs uniform. Jon Gruden wasn't a BETTER Coach than Tony Dungy - he had a BETETR QB so they played with more leads AND margin of error than Dilfer was capable of getting Dungy. When you play with leads on defense - offenses are as predictable as you'd like them to be in the 2nd half.

Do the Steelers SUCK now that Cowher is gone? Why not? Not that this is the rule BUT did the Ravens even NEED Brian Billick to win the Superbowl? Not really. And Jon Gruden's Superbowl W was actually an outcome where his defense scored 4 of the TDs. Was he BETTER at teaching defense to talented defenders? Hell no! Both Coaches had Monte Kiffen as their DC. Guys like Herm Edwards, Rod Marinelli and Lovie Smith were never DCs in Tampa. They were position coaches.

When I think of our overall talent level as I've seen so MANY opposing defenses scoring critical TDs on our offense - the first question I ask myself is: 1) Besides the Giants game WHEN have we ever seen our defense scoring in a close game in the last 4 years? That's being a playmaker. That Denver game BEGGED for just 1 guy to make a play on defense. Just 1 and yet they were the team with MORE injuries on their defense just like Indy was. When those teams' backups look as good or better than our starters - I QUESTION our overall talent.

Like I've said so many times, in the 80s I was constantly saying "wow, this guy is a steal." I say this about Cribbs and I said it about Davon Holly but that's about it. I think you have strong emotional ties to Phil Savage clouding your judgement. I think BOTH the Head Coach and the GM gotta go. I haven't waivered on that just because I said RAC didn't look like he sucked at coaching when he had a GREAT Supervisor and talented group to coach. Phil's first interview he said he was going to improve the draft and continuity. We still count FAR too much on FAs and our depth sucks. There's only 1 lineman (#3 overall) on either side of the ball drafted by Phil in 4 years that's good enough to participate in games on Sundays. You think it's terrific - I think it's killed us to date. We agree to disagree. This conversation started with me complimenting you but the more you think you've educated me the less I can give you credit for.

- Tom F.

To be a great team in the NFL...you have to be pumping on all cylinders. 4 years ago, we had none. We lacked talent, coaching, mentallity, schemes...the whole nine yards. Since, we've had improvements. The talent may still need improvement, but not as much as coaching and mentallity.

The Browns will continue to get better if they continue to work on the weakest link. Right now, our Talent is not the weakest link. However, sometime in the future it could be. It all depends on how well the other weaker links are repaired.