McCoy: Let's Just Get This Out There (!)
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I'd be ecstatic if McCoy turned out as good as Jeff Garcia. Jeff started for over a decade in the league and took several teams to the playoffs.
Once again shep is posting just to post. How many times do we need to hear about how Clausen is obviously better than McCoy, even though neither has played a down in the NFL and both quite possibly won't at all this year.
I'd be ecstatic if McCoy turned out as good as Jeff Garcia. Jeff started for over a decade in the league and took several teams to the playoffs.
Once again shep is posting just to post. How many times do we need to hear about how Clausen is obviously better than McCoy, even though neither has played a down in the NFL and both quite possibly won't at all this year.
Huh? What does that mean, "Posting just to post?" I believe it was Ate who said he was looking forward to debating/discussing McCoy with me. Are you saying something real or did you just wanna take a little shot? It's fine either way, I guess.
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Great post Shep! We have different criteria of what makes a franchise QB.....to me McCoy is a real candidate. He got better every year and he won nearly all of his big games. Those are my most important measurement stats. Claussen to me lead ND to mediocre. Mediocre at college usually resutls in more mediocre. I am happy we got McCoy and I truly believe he can be the guy. OF course anyone who knows anything about me............QB is way more important than any position..........and I hope we finaly got one
Welcome back my man and lets debate on all issues ...................too cool
Winning in college doesn't mean much. Tee Martin won the national championship the year after Manning went to the Colts, for instance. Who quarterbacked the OSU national champions? Where's the Gator QB who won it all under Spurrier... or the one who won it OVER the Buckeyes? What about the Oklahoma national champion QB?
See? I don't even know their names!
Favre never won shit. Manning couldn't win the big one. Brees never won anything. Rivers never won anything. Rodgers never won anything. Brady never won anything. It just doesn't matter.
Winning in college doesn't mean much. Tee Martin won the national championship the year after Manning went to the Colts, for instance. Who quarterbacked the OSU national champions? Where's the Gator QB who won it all under Spurrier... or the one who won it OVER the Buckeyes? What about the Oklahoma national champion QB?
See? I don't even know their names!
Favre never won shit. Manning couldn't win the big one. Brees never won anything. Rivers never won anything. Rodgers never won anything. Brady never won anything. It just doesn't matter.
Yes, you make a very valid point. Having success in college, leading a team to a national championship does not really mean diddly when it comes to NFL success. Some of the names you couldn't come up with: Craig Krenzel of OSU, Chris Leak of Fla., Danny Weurfell of Fla., Jason White of OK.....all had little if anything of an NFL career. (might Tebow join this list?). We could probably come up with quite a few more names. But, that doesn't mean that because you have led your team to a national title, or national title game that you won't be any good. I am sure if we looked hard enough we would find some success stories amongst national title contending QBs who have done well in the NFL..
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No doubt. good NFLers come from all types of programs.
I will say thing about winning....all other things being equal, the player who won probably does get a bump in the ratings. While it may not mean all that much, it means more than nothing.
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Yeah, it's a gray area and I think you have to take it case by case. If two quarterbacks with NFL skills play on contending teams, I'd certainly look at the QB who caused wins (as opposed to taking snaps on a team that won, which happens in college but not in the pros).
There are a lot of "passenger" QBs on good college teams, is what I'm saying.
To wear out my Clausen fetish: The Irish were ranked like 87th in defense and 85th in rushing... but still managed to have one of the best pass offenses in the entire nation. That's tough, given that everybody knows what you're gonna do. On top of that, Clausen only threw 4 picks against 28 TDs, so I don't think he blew too many games. He also set a record for comeback wins.
So my point on Clausen: If you're looking for reasons for their 6-6 record, you don't look at anybody involved with the passing game (Clausen, Tate, Floyd, the TE, etc.). It's like blaming Marino or Fouts for their teams not winning the Super Bowl.
I believe Favre's team went 5-6 his senior year. Obviously Cutler's team wasn't good. Schaub's Virginia team was so-so. Again... I can't think of any national championship QBs tearing up the league right now. Leinart gets his shot in 2010.
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Yeah, it's a gray area and I think you have to take it case by case. If two quarterbacks with NFL skills play on contending teams, I'd certainly look at the QB who caused wins (as opposed to taking snaps on a team that won, which happens in college but not in the pros).
There are a lot of "passenger" QBs on good college teams, is what I'm saying.
To wear out my Clausen fetish: The Irish were ranked like 87th in defense and 85th in rushing... but still managed to have one of the best pass offenses in the entire nation. That's tough, given that everybody knows what you're gonna do. On top of that, Clausen only threw 4 picks against 28 TDs, so I don't think he blew too many games. He also set a record for comeback wins.
So my point on Clausen: If you're looking for reasons for their 6-6 record, you don't look at anybody involved with the passing game (Clausen, Tate, Floyd, the TE, etc.). It's like blaming Marino or Fouts for their teams not winning the Super Bowl.
I believe Favre's team went 5-6 his senior year. Obviously Cutler's team wasn't good. Schaub's Virginia team was so-so. Again... I can't think of any national championship QBs tearing up the league right now. Leinart gets his shot in 2010.
Yeah, it's a gray area and I think you have to take it case by case. If two quarterbacks with NFL skills play on contending teams, I'd certainly look at the QB who caused wins (as opposed to taking snaps on a team that won, which happens in college but not in the pros).
There are a lot of "passenger" QBs on good college teams, is what I'm saying.
To wear out my Clausen fetish: The Irish were ranked like 87th in defense and 85th in rushing... but still managed to have one of the best pass offenses in the entire nation. That's tough, given that everybody knows what you're gonna do. On top of that, Clausen only threw 4 picks against 28 TDs, so I don't think he blew too many games. He also set a record for comeback wins.
So my point on Clausen: If you're looking for reasons for their 6-6 record, you don't look at anybody involved with the passing game (Clausen, Tate, Floyd, the TE, etc.). It's like blaming Marino or Fouts for their teams not winning the Super Bowl.
I believe Favre's team went 5-6 his senior year. Obviously Cutler's team wasn't good. Schaub's Virginia team was so-so. Again... I can't think of any national championship QBs tearing up the league right now. Leinart gets his shot in 2010.
The winning criteria has nothing to do with what you are talking about. Nothing. And for the record, the other 4 criteria wouldn't allow a "passenger" QB to be drafted anyways. The winning criteria has everything, and only, to do with the QB "knowing" what it feels like to be a winner and being a leader of that "winning."
Vince Young looked decent for awhile, then fell apart, then last year looked decent. He won a national championship in 2006. The jury is still out I suppose, but it is likely that he will prove to be a good (maybe not great) starter in the NFL.
Smith also could have played for a national championship (he's been crap for awhile, but things are looking up for him) if it weren't for the BCS stupidity.
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But that's exactly my point, Andy: Smith and Young are not tearing up the NFL, although in a protected offense, Young did play better last year. Big winners in college... but not great quarterback prospects.
I'd say the water gets really murky when you try to credit college quarterbacks with wins and losses, because the levels of play AND playing styles are so wildly different. Not so in the NFL, where replacing Delhomme with Manning on the Panthers last year probably makes them a contender. QB is a much clearer X factor at the NFL level.
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But that's exactly my point, Andy: Smith and Young are not tearing up the NFL, although in a protected offense, Young did play better last year. Big winners in college... but not great quarterback prospects.
I'd say the water gets really murky when you try to credit college quarterbacks with wins and losses, because the levels of play AND playing styles are so wildly different. Not so in the NFL, where replacing Delhomme with Manning on the Panthers last year probably makes them a contender. QB is a much clearer X factor at the NFL level.
But that's exactly my point, Andy: Smith and Young are not tearing up the NFL, although in a protected offense, Young did play better last year. Big winners in college... but not great quarterback prospects.
I'd say the water gets really murky when you try to credit college quarterbacks with wins and losses, because the levels of play AND playing styles are so wildly different. Not so in the NFL, where replacing Delhomme with Manning on the Panthers last year probably makes them a contender. QB is a much clearer X factor at the NFL level.
Again, you have completely missed the point. It isn't about the QB skills when considering wins and losses. It isn't about attributing those wins and losses to the QB.
It is about coming from an winning organization.
Secondly, while Young and Smith aren't "tearing up the NFL" being starters in the league are a lot different than not being in the league at all (Krenzel and Leak).
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Here is a list of QBs who have either won the BCS title game or have lost the BCS title game. It may no be perfectly complete, but it does give some names to go with what is being said here:
Tee Martin
Chris Weinke
Jason White
Troy Smith
Vince Young
Tim Tebow
Matt Flynn
John David Booty
Craig Krenzel
Ken Dorsey
Chris Leak
Scott Frost
Sam Bradford
Todd Boeckman
Matt Leinert
Now, name the superstar NFL QB off this list. The closest at this point is probably Vince Young, but he has only had a good rookie season, a couple of very bumpy seasons in between, then a good year last year. But, I am not sure I, nor anyone else is prepared to declare him an NFL superstar.
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Compare the above list for those QBs who are, say, considered the Top 15 in the NFL. Here is one possible Top 15 NFL QB list. How close did any of these come to winning a title in college:
P. Manning
Brady
Brees
Ben Roethlisberger
Favre
Rivers
A. Rodgers
E. Manning
C. Palmer
McNabb
Romo
Schaub
Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco
? Wild Card #15...insert your own.
Except for Payton Manning and maybe Carson Palmer, did any of these come close to winning a BCS title? I don't think so.
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Compare the above list for those QBs who are, say, considered the Top 15 in the NFL. Here is one possible Top 15 NFL QB list. How close did any of these come to winning a title in college:
P. Manning
Brady
Brees
Ben Roethlisberger
Favre
Rivers
A. Rodgers
E. Manning
C. Palmer
McNabb
Romo
Schaub
Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco
? Wild Card #15...insert your own.
Except for Payton Manning and maybe Carson Palmer, did any of these come close to winning a BCS title? I don't think so.
Compare the above list for those QBs who are, say, considered the Top 15 in the NFL. Here is one possible Top 15 NFL QB list. How close did any of these come to winning a title in college:
P. Manning
Brady
Brees
Ben Roethlisberger
Favre
Rivers
A. Rodgers
E. Manning
C. Palmer
McNabb
Romo
Schaub
Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco
? Wild Card #15...insert your own.
Except for Payton Manning and maybe Carson Palmer, did any of these come close to winning a BCS title? I don't think so.
No, but all but a couple had at least a .700 winning percentage while at their college program.
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We'll agree to disagree. But know that it's an ongoing debate between a lot of pretty smart analysts. Interesting stuff.
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Compare the above list for those QBs who are, say, considered the Top 15 in the NFL. Here is one possible Top 15 NFL QB list. How close did any of these come to winning a title in college:
P. Manning
Brady
Brees
Ben Roethlisberger
Favre
Rivers
A. Rodgers
E. Manning
C. Palmer
McNabb
Romo
Schaub
Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco
? Wild Card #15...insert your own.
Except for Payton Manning and maybe Carson Palmer, did any of these come close to winning a BCS title? I don't think so.
No, but all but a couple had at least a .700 winning percentage while at their college program.
No, but all but a couple had at least a .700 winning percentage while at their college program.
Maybe I haven't been following the thrust of this argument carefully. I thought it had to do with QBs who win a BCS title becoming "studs" in the NFL. No? Or is it just about being a winning QB in college.
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No, but all but a couple had at least a .700 winning percentage while at their college program.
Maybe I haven't been following the thrust of this argument carefully. I thought it had to do with QBs who win a BCS title becoming "studs" in the NFL. No? Or is it just about being a winning QB in college.
Maybe I haven't been following the thrust of this argument carefully. I thought it had to do with QBs who win a BCS title becoming "studs" in the NFL. No? Or is it just about being a winning QB in college.
I think it's about the slippery slope of judging college quarterbacks based on their teams' records.
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No, but all but a couple had at least a .700 winning percentage while at their college program.
Maybe I haven't been following the thrust of this argument carefully. I thought it had to do with QBs who win a BCS title becoming "studs" in the NFL. No? Or is it just about being a winning QB in college.
Maybe I haven't been following the thrust of this argument carefully. I thought it had to do with QBs who win a BCS title becoming "studs" in the NFL. No? Or is it just about being a winning QB in college.
Nope, that’s what Shep is trying to say that I’m saying, but that’s not what I’m saying at all.
I’m saying that of 5 criteria, one of them (ONE), according to Parcells, should include the winning percentage of the team from when the QB started there. I’ve also clearly stated this isn’t the most important criteria, but it is still one of Parcells’ and he has a proven track record of success as a coach, GM, and talent evaluator (including QB’s).
I don’t know why Shep is arguing with me about this as though I’m saying it’s the only thing that matters, or that winning equates BCS championship (not what I’m saying at all).
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Maybe I haven't been following the thrust of this argument carefully. I thought it had to do with QBs who win a BCS title becoming "studs" in the NFL. No? Or is it just about being a winning QB in college.
Nope, that’s what Shep is trying to say that I’m saying, but that’s not what I’m saying at all.
I’m saying that of 5 criteria, one of them (ONE), according to Parcells, should include the winning percentage of the team from when the QB started there. I’ve also clearly stated this isn’t the most important criteria, but it is still one of Parcells’ and he has a proven track record of success as a coach, GM, and talent evaluator (including QB’s).
I don’t know why Shep is arguing with me about this as though I’m saying it’s the only thing that matters, or that winning equates BCS championship (not what I’m saying at all).
Nope, that's what Shep is trying to say that I'm saying, but that's not what I'm saying at all.
I'm saying that of 5 criteria, one of them (ONE), according to Parcells, should include the winning percentage of the team from when the QB started there. I've also clearly stated this isn't the most important criteria, but it is still one of Parcells' and he has a proven track record of success as a coach, GM, and talent evaluator (including QB's).
I don't know why Shep is arguing with me about this as though I'm saying it's the only thing that matters, or that winning equates BCS championship (not what I'm saying at all).
Who cares about what Parcells says, he never won anything without BELICHICK so who really was the brains behind his success. Winning the BCS is a total crap shoot with way more variables than winning in the NFL. They should not be compared. Meanwhile QB's who win at lower levels usually keep winning at higher levels the NFL.............
and that is exactly why I never wanted Brady Quinn he sucked in nearly every big game in College......it is documented
Meanwhile Ben took a pile a crap to a Big time Bowl game Win
It is was it is great QB's make teams winners........or die in the process..............
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Maybe I haven't been following the thrust of this argument carefully. I thought it had to do with QBs who win a BCS title becoming "studs" in the NFL. No? Or is it just about being a winning QB in college.
Nope, that’s what Shep is trying to say that I’m saying, but that’s not what I’m saying at all.
I’m saying that of 5 criteria, one of them (ONE), according to Parcells, should include the winning percentage of the team from when the QB started there. I’ve also clearly stated this isn’t the most important criteria, but it is still one of Parcells’ and he has a proven track record of success as a coach, GM, and talent evaluator (including QB’s).
I don’t know why Shep is arguing with me about this as though I’m saying it’s the only thing that matters, or that winning equates BCS championship (not what I’m saying at all).
Nope, that’s what Shep is trying to say that I’m saying, but that’s not what I’m saying at all.
I’m saying that of 5 criteria, one of them (ONE), according to Parcells, should include the winning percentage of the team from when the QB started there. I’ve also clearly stated this isn’t the most important criteria, but it is still one of Parcells’ and he has a proven track record of success as a coach, GM, and talent evaluator (including QB’s).
I don’t know why Shep is arguing with me about this as though I’m saying it’s the only thing that matters, or that winning equates BCS championship (not what I’m saying at all).
Andy, who are you arguing with? I'm not ascribing anything to you! We're just discussing a very interesting topic!
1. I'm not trying to say that you said it was BCS champions. I used some BCS champion QBs versus some other QBs who didn't win it all or even come close to make the point that using a college team's record as a barometer of quarterback talent is a slippery slope. That's all.
2. I'm not being mean nor am I demeaning your side of the argument at all. Read back.
3. We're not arguing. We're discussing. In Planet Draftnick, this is an interesting topic BECAUSE there are two sides to it!
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Nope, that's what Shep is trying to say that I'm saying, but that's not what I'm saying at all.
I'm saying that of 5 criteria, one of them (ONE), according to Parcells, should include the winning percentage of the team from when the QB started there. I've also clearly stated this isn't the most important criteria, but it is still one of Parcells' and he has a proven track record of success as a coach, GM, and talent evaluator (including QB's).
I don't know why Shep is arguing with me about this as though I'm saying it's the only thing that matters, or that winning equates BCS championship (not what I'm saying at all).
Who cares about what Parcells says, he never won anything without BELICHICK so who really was the brains behind his success. Winning the BCS is a total crap shoot with way more variables than winning in the NFL. They should not be compared. Meanwhile QB's who win at lower levels usually keep winning at higher levels the NFL.............
and that is exactly why I never wanted Brady Quinn he sucked in nearly every big game in College......it is documented
Meanwhile Ben took a pile a crap to a Big time Bowl game Win
It is was it is great QB's make teams winners........or die in the process..............
Who cares about what Parcells says, he never won anything without BELICHICK so who really was the brains behind his success. Winning the BCS is a total crap shoot with way more variables than winning in the NFL. They should not be compared. Meanwhile QB's who win at lower levels usually keep winning at higher levels the NFL.............
and that is exactly why I never wanted Brady Quinn he sucked in nearly every big game in College......it is documented
Meanwhile Ben took a pile a crap to a Big time Bowl game Win
It is was it is great QB's make teams winners........or die in the process..............
My point is that the talent variance in college makes this way less true than in the NFL.
In the NFL, the teams with the best quarterbacks tend to win the most because every team is talented... and they all play about the same schemes on both sides of the ball (is anybody NOT running an offense loosely inspired by the WCO?).
In other words, a lot of college teams win a lot of games, including BCS bowls, WITHOUT a great quarterback, including the ones listed elsewhere in this thread.
So once you know that, once you know a mediocre quarterback can win it all... how does quarterbacking a winning college team really qualify you for the next level? How is it an important criterion? Given that mediocre quarterbacks do it all the time?
Now to Andy's point: All other things being equal as far as talent, would you like the guy who's been under the spotlight? Who's won games, rather than gone along for the ride? Who actually CAUSED the wins, in the toughest of competitions?
Definitely. But shit, there are some teams like Texas and Ohio State and Florida and USC and Oklahoma who could win just as well with Craig Krenzel or Ken Dorsey as with Clausen or McCoy or Bradford or Leinart. They're dominant all over the field. That's not gonna happen at the next level.
That's why scouts like private workouts and all-star games. It evens the field, takes them out of that specific context.
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When people expect you to win and you do it, that is good.
When people expect you to win and you don't do it, that is bad.
McCoy won. Clausen didn't. Simple.
Clausen may have a great arm. But so does Jamarcus Russell. Are you really sure you want to make arm strength a sink-or-swim criterion for success as an NFL qb? Russell is also larger than Clausen. Is size really one of those definitive traits of a great quarterback? (BTW, Kiper increased his rating of McCoy's arm strength after his pro day).
I can't understand badmouthing someone who has been successful while wishing we had chosen someone who was not successful.
But I love the way you set the criteria for good quarterbacks where only one qb in the entire draft could meet them. I also admire the way you can excuse all the faults that Clausen has. At least you are consistant in supporting your man.
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I wanna go on the record (again) and say that I thought outside of Bradford, McCoy was the best QB in the draft. Although he wasn't a top 10 or even a 1st round option for us, he was a steal in the 3rd and at that spot, it's a low-risk, high reward pick. I have never liked Clausen and predicted a free fall in the draft for him. I think if McCoy can sit for a few years, he'll be excellent. I think if Clausen sits for a few years, he'll be, Josh McCown.
"Chances are, if you think Jay Leno is funny, I don't care for you as a person" - Peter Griffin -
Who cares about what Parcells says, he never won anything without BELICHICK so who really was the brains behind his success. Winning the BCS is a total crap shoot with way more variables than winning in the NFL. They should not be compared. Meanwhile QB's who win at lower levels usually keep winning at higher levels the NFL.............
and that is exactly why I never wanted Brady Quinn he sucked in nearly every big game in College......it is documented
Meanwhile Ben took a pile a crap to a Big time Bowl game Win
It is was it is great QB's make teams winners........or die in the process..............
My point is that the talent variance in college makes this way less true than in the NFL.
In the NFL, the teams with the best quarterbacks tend to win the most because every team is talented... and they all play about the same schemes on both sides of the ball (is anybody NOT running an offense loosely inspired by the WCO?).
In other words, a lot of college teams win a lot of games, including BCS bowls, WITHOUT a great quarterback, including the ones listed elsewhere in this thread.
So once you know that, once you know a mediocre quarterback can win it all... how does quarterbacking a winning college team really qualify you for the next level? How is it an important criterion? Given that mediocre quarterbacks do it all the time?
Now to Andy's point: All other things being equal as far as talent, would you like the guy who's been under the spotlight? Who's won games, rather than gone along for the ride? Who actually CAUSED the wins, in the toughest of competitions?
Definitely. But shit, there are some teams like Texas and Ohio State and Florida and USC and Oklahoma who could win just as well with Craig Krenzel or Ken Dorsey as with Clausen or McCoy or Bradford or Leinart. They're dominant all over the field. That's not gonna happen at the next level.
That's why scouts like private workouts and all-star games. It evens the field, takes them out of that specific context.
My point is that the talent variance in college makes this way less true than in the NFL.
In the NFL, the teams with the best quarterbacks tend to win the most because every team is talented... and they all play about the same schemes on both sides of the ball (is anybody NOT running an offense loosely inspired by the WCO?).
In other words, a lot of college teams win a lot of games, including BCS bowls, WITHOUT a great quarterback, including the ones listed elsewhere in this thread.
So once you know that, once you know a mediocre quarterback can win it all... how does quarterbacking a winning college team really qualify you for the next level? How is it an important criterion? Given that mediocre quarterbacks do it all the time?
Now to Andy's point: All other things being equal as far as talent, would you like the guy who's been under the spotlight? Who's won games, rather than gone along for the ride? Who actually CAUSED the wins, in the toughest of competitions?
Definitely. But shit, there are some teams like Texas and Ohio State and Florida and USC and Oklahoma who could win just as well with Craig Krenzel or Ken Dorsey as with Clausen or McCoy or Bradford or Leinart. They're dominant all over the field. That's not gonna happen at the next level.
That's why scouts like private workouts and all-star games. It evens the field, takes them out of that specific context.
Is it fair to say that some college programs may in fact excel better when they DON'T have an NFL caliber QB leading them?
I mean, it seems that the likes of Tommy Frazier, Scott Frost, Eric Crouch did wonders for that teams system (Nebraska), which may in fact have had no place for an NFL prospect.
Perfect example: Troy Aikman. Aikman originally signed on with the Oklahoma Sooners, but the Sooners were running the Wishbone for which a QB name Jamel Holloway was a far better fit for. Barry Switzer recognized that Aikman was a square peg in a round hole and encouraged him to transfer to another school that ran more of a pro style system. Aikman went to UCLA and the rest is history. Holloway won a national title running the Sooners. Aikman did well in college such that he became the first pick in the NFL draft....and he went on to win three Super Bowls with the Dallas Cowboys....one of which his HC was none other than Barry Switzer, the guy that encouraged him to go elsewhere to develop his talents.
(and in my view this negates all those who denigrate Switzer capability as a coach. He was an outstanding coach.)
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