Joe Haden was a BETTER 1st pick for US than Dez Bryant
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That's a smart post, Steel... and good points. I actually told Alo almost the same thing, that if the Browns turn around and get a great WR in the next draft who at least comes close to being a Dez Bryant (who I think has about 8 Pro Bowls ahead of him)... then it's gold, Jerry.
But keep this in mind: With Revis having the best year of any CB in memory in 2009, the Jets should have been 7-9. Both the Bengals and Colts rested their starters the last two games. When Manning DID play against the Jets? Route. Full-on route. Manning trumps Revis.
That's what Revis did for the Jets. He played his position as well as it can be played... and it drove his team to what should have been a 7-9 record. The guy in Oakland with the difficult name drives them home for the playoffs.
My issue has never been that those guys or Haden aren't good. It's that the rule changes have made it difficult for a great pass defense to stall a great pass offense. Madden thinks the only way is with a pass rush, disrupting the great conductor (Manning, Brady, Brees, etc.). He doesn't think you can cover your way out of it. Gruden says you have to match them in the passing game, score as many points. Most DCs will tell you to play a zone, a Cover 2, and don't ask your CBs to shut people down.
Hell, Revis couldn't "shut down" Evan Moore when it mattered.
It's a complicated debate... but I personally wouldn't take corners in the top 10. I still feel that way even though I love Haden.
That's a smart post, Steel... and good points. I actually told Alo almost the same thing, that if the Browns turn around and get a great WR in the next draft who at least comes close to being a Dez Bryant (who I think has about 8 Pro Bowls ahead of him)... then it's gold, Jerry.
But keep this in mind: With Revis having the best year of any CB in memory in 2009, the Jets should have been 7-9. Both the Bengals and Colts rested their starters the last two games. When Manning DID play against the Jets? Route. Full-on route. Manning trumps Revis.
That's what Revis did for the Jets. He played his position as well as it can be played... and it drove his team to what should have been a 7-9 record. The guy in Oakland with the difficult name drives them home for the playoffs.
My issue has never been that those guys or Haden aren't good. It's that the rule changes have made it difficult for a great pass defense to stall a great pass offense. Madden thinks the only way is with a pass rush, disrupting the great conductor (Manning, Brady, Brees, etc.). He doesn't think you can cover your way out of it. Gruden says you have to match them in the passing game, score as many points. Most DCs will tell you to play a zone, a Cover 2, and don't ask your CBs to shut people down.
Hell, Revis couldn't "shut down" Evan Moore when it mattered.
It's a complicated debate... but I personally wouldn't take corners in the top 10. I still feel that way even though I love Haden.
Then it comes down to being a QB thing and not a WR or CB thing. The reason Manning did so well against Revis is because he is Manning. You could put our receivers with him and I guarantee at least one becomes a big time player.
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That's a smart post, Steel... and good points. I actually told Alo almost the same thing, that if the Browns turn around and get a great WR in the next draft who at least comes close to being a Dez Bryant (who I think has about 8 Pro Bowls ahead of him)... then it's gold, Jerry.
But keep this in mind: With Revis having the best year of any CB in memory in 2009, the Jets should have been 7-9. Both the Bengals and Colts rested their starters the last two games. When Manning DID play against the Jets? Route. Full-on route. Manning trumps Revis.
That's what Revis did for the Jets. He played his position as well as it can be played... and it drove his team to what should have been a 7-9 record. The guy in Oakland with the difficult name drives them home for the playoffs.
My issue has never been that those guys or Haden aren't good. It's that the rule changes have made it difficult for a great pass defense to stall a great pass offense. Madden thinks the only way is with a pass rush, disrupting the great conductor (Manning, Brady, Brees, etc.). He doesn't think you can cover your way out of it. Gruden says you have to match them in the passing game, score as many points. Most DCs will tell you to play a zone, a Cover 2, and don't ask your CBs to shut people down.
Hell, Revis couldn't "shut down" Evan Moore when it mattered.
It's a complicated debate... but I personally wouldn't take corners in the top 10. I still feel that way even though I love Haden.
Then it comes down to being a QB thing and not a WR or CB thing. The reason Manning did so well against Revis is because he is Manning. You could put our receivers with him and I guarantee at least one becomes a big time player.
Then it comes down to being a QB thing and not a WR or CB thing. The reason Manning did so well against Revis is because he is Manning. You could put our receivers with him and I guarantee at least one becomes a big time player.
This is where we wind ourselves back to total agreement. It's no coincidence that Indy, New Orleans, Green Bay, and New England keep finding "steals" all over the draft at WR and TE (Tamme? Huh?).
I think there's a point at which a WR simply can't play, can't get open. I think that's true of Robiskie because he isn't strong, fast, OR quick. There are also guys who just seems to have an instinct and there are other guys who can make plays when they're covered. But you gotta have SOMETHING.
But on the QB thing... I totally agree. It's so much more important than anything else, you really can't even think of it as an ordinary "position." It's way bigger than that.
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Haden is awesome but i fault mangini and ryan for not using him more early on instead keeping wright on the field cost us at least 2 games and it was uncalled for as haden out of the gate was better than wright..
Haden is awesome but i fault mangini and ryan for not using him more early on instead keeping wright on the field cost us at least 2 games and it was uncalled for as haden out of the gate was better than wright..
You can't fault the coaches when you didn't see Haden practice each week. They started playing him when he was ready. I realize you dont like the coaching staff but you can look back on any season (regardless of coach) and say "woulda coulda shoulda." Hindsight is always 20/20.
If Mangini starts Haden too soon and he plays poorly, there goes the kid's confidence. IMO, they gave him more and more to work with each week, and let him prove himself rather than making a rash decision at the beginning of the year... Until Haden learned the plays, he wouldn't have been much better than Wright...
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Correct me if I missed something (I skimmed a bit) but what is the point of this thread? Haden was a great pick. Bryant would have been a great pick as well. He has shown that he is the goods and I'm pretty sure you can't hold a broken ankle against the guy. He hasn't proven to be any sort of problem this year and looks to be one of the next great play makers. I'm not sure that who his dad is is relevant? The guy had 8 TDs in 11 weeks before his injury, there is no way you can say that Haden is a better pick at this time.
And both are way better than Fluges' fave, C.J. Spiller!! Love you, Thomas.
As to the quoted post, this is the only rational take here. Nobody nowhere is saying Bryant WASN'T a steal. The re-do draft had Haden at 17 and Bryant at 8, right? As Jaws said, Bryant simply looks like the best football player on the field most of the time. He's a tremendous talent and it clearly showed. To the surprise of almost nobody, he's been a great teammate and stayed out trouble (something he's done his whole life).
Haden has really, REALLY come on, and I'm thrilled. I was iffy on the pick because I don't know how much a CB can affect the bottom line with the rules changes. I did NOT say he wasn't good. He's a very good corner with a chance to be great. Has his emergence pushed us to a winning streak? Well... no. But he's an excellent corner and in today's NFL you need at least one shutdown guy. So I'm not nearly as disgruntled as I was.
Would I still like to have taken Dez Bryant first and a corner later? Yup. But that's irrelevant. As I've said, the Browns and others are probably lucky I'm not the GM (and Fluges, too, who would've picked Spiller). But my pick still would have been Bryant.
And both are way better than Fluges' fave, C.J. Spiller!! Love you, Thomas.
As to the quoted post, this is the only rational take here. Nobody nowhere is saying Bryant WASN'T a steal. The re-do draft had Haden at 17 and Bryant at 8, right? As Jaws said, Bryant simply looks like the best football player on the field most of the time. He's a tremendous talent and it clearly showed. To the surprise of almost nobody, he's been a great teammate and stayed out trouble (something he's done his whole life).
Haden has really, REALLY come on, and I'm thrilled. I was iffy on the pick because I don't know how much a CB can affect the bottom line with the rules changes. I did NOT say he wasn't good. He's a very good corner with a chance to be great. Has his emergence pushed us to a winning streak? Well... no. But he's an excellent corner and in today's NFL you need at least one shutdown guy. So I'm not nearly as disgruntled as I was.
Would I still like to have taken Dez Bryant first and a corner later? Yup. But that's irrelevant. As I've said, the Browns and others are probably lucky I'm not the GM (and Fluges, too, who would've picked Spiller). But my pick still would have been Bryant.
LOL! Nice to see you too Shep! I hope you're not as premature with Spiller as you were with slapping the epic bust label on Joe Haden during the OTAs. You had all kinds of early conclusions made before the guy ever put his shoulder pads on for the first time. Come to think of it, didn't you trash Colt McCoy just as early and just as often? You pretty much assured everyone that Jimmy Clausen was going to be way better and had the NFL arm Colt McCoy could only dream of. Haven't we always debated your premature conclusions like Dennis Northcutt heading straight for the NFL Hall of Fame after his first minicamp? I don't think we've ever started a bigger candyass at WR than Northcutt if I'm being honest.
For FUN, not to be confused with thinking I can quit my day job, I traditionally pick 1 offensive guy and 1 defensive guy I want in round 1. I do this because I'm never sure we're going offense or defense first. In 2010 - Joe Haden was my defensive favorite (with a fierce competition from Eric Berry; but RAC didn't go ALL the way to UT to workout Berry simply because he wanted to be a nice guy). My offensive choice for 2010 was Spiller. Seeing how Buffalo traded Marshawn Lynch instead of Spiller - I'm guessing they feel very good about his future like the Browns once did when Greg Pruitt once cracked in as a kickoff/punt returner in the rookie season. Spiller has returned a kickoff for a TD in 2010 and he's getting reps with the first offense. Just out of curiosity, did Dez Bryant get drafted AHEAD of Spiller or AFTER him? And is Dez Bryant the leading receiver in Dallas? 2nd leading receiver? 3rd leading Receiver? He was 3rd behind the UNDRAFTED Austin and Witten when his season ended.
The rationale behind the Spiller fondness? In 2009, I often posted here that I wanted Percy Harvin in round 1 at a position I felt we were weak at - Wide Receiver. That said, we've also seen Harvin score from a hand off in the pros just like he did the last time Florida defeated Alabama. He's got a rare blend of speed and power that you can attack a defense and STs with in so many ways. I see a ginormous similarity to CJ Spiller particularly in their build, speed and hands. AND my research showed he had the 2nd highest reception volume of ALL of the highest rated RBs coming out (2nd only to hardesty I believe). This shows me the RIGHT Coaching staff could easily use him in the slot if need be, as a 3rd down RB and return kicks/punts from the getgo. I was wanting Spiller to be the next Percy Harvin. Are you willing to fess up and tell everyone that you were one of the first ones to tell me we were drafting too high in round 1 to consider Harvin? You might want to research who ran away with Offensive Rookie of the Year honors that season. I think I get it right sometimes Shep even if you hate people knowing that.
Worth noting: Minnesota got BETTER when Harvin was added to their offense. Come to think of it - it was the first season Sidney Rice ever enjoyed favorable matchups. Consequently, Rice had a breakout year and suddenly that bust word disappeared in Minnesota. It took the 3 years + Percy Harvin stealing attention from secondaries to enable Rice to showcase his talents. Hmmmm, sounds like Harvin had quite the rookie impact. That's EXACTLY what I see Spiller capable of with the understanding that guys emerge into full capabilities at varying rates. Unfortunately, Dallas did NOT get better this year. Let's just hope for your sake he doesn't have ankles like Yao Ming or it won't be very Chow Ming.
- Tom F. (I never could make up my mind if I wanted Spiller or Haden more - it changed with the wind)
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Haden is awesome but i fault mangini and ryan for not using him more early on instead keeping wright on the field cost us at least 2 games and it was uncalled for as haden out of the gate was better than wright..
Haden is awesome but i fault mangini and ryan for not using him more early on instead keeping wright on the field cost us at least 2 games and it was uncalled for as haden out of the gate was better than wright..
I do agree with that.
I will say Mangini isn't the first coach who is slow to bring rookies in to the mix.
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Whats weird is most people dont know they have legal THC pills. Its synthetic THC, but has same effect. I didnt know these existed till my sister got Cancer. She had lot of problems with nausea and doc gave her a script for Marinol - It is legal in all 50 states. She didnt take em that often, and had alot. She gave me a few, and its alot like eating weed brownies. Takes a little while to kick in, but lasts alot longer.
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Whats weird is most people dont know they have legal THC pills. Its synthetic THC, but has same effect. I didnt know these existed till my sister got Cancer. She had lot of problems with nausea and doc gave her a script for Marinol - It is legal in all 50 states. She didnt take em that often, and had alot. She gave me a few, and its alot like eating weed brownies. Takes a little while to kick in, but lasts alot longer.
Whats weird is most people dont know they have legal THC pills. Its synthetic THC, but has same effect. I didnt know these existed till my sister got Cancer. She had lot of problems with nausea and doc gave her a script for Marinol - It is legal in all 50 states. She didnt take em that often, and had alot. She gave me a few, and its alot like eating weed brownies. Takes a little while to kick in, but lasts alot longer.
Sorry about your sister!
Bringing it all back into context - my point was we ONCE determined William Green was such a talent that we didn't need to factor in other things like types of parents, genetic predispositions (ie addictions) and learned behaviors. Talent or a lackthereof wasn't the thing that tackled William Green from behind. It was EVERYTHING we overlooked for the bottom line of talent. As William Green ran for 164 yards on the playoff bound Falcons, NOBODY saw the massive curveball or change up that was right around the corner in week 5 or 6 of 2003.
The problems we've discovered with making TALENT ONLY as the bottom line is it has blown up in our faces way more than once - so here's a few examples just off the top of my head:
1) Braylon Edwards Scissosrhands
2) Donte Stallworth
3) William Green (and I loved that kid predraft before I came to realize WHY they do thorough background checks today)
CAN we at least begin to assign some degree of accountability to those 2 knuckleheads (Stallworth & Scissorshands) for putting our passing game 6 feet under in 2009? BTW, what has Braylon done anytime the Jets have played a playoff caliber team this year?
- Tom F.
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Does raise the question of where A.J. and Julio fit with Dez. A lot of the top draftnicks declared Bryant the best WR talent in the draft since Calvin Johnson... and I'm not sure you could find too many who disagreed then or now.
Jones is a beast and a great prospect, but you're not gonna hear that kind of talk because he just hasn't displayed Bryant's ball skills. I don't honestly believe anybody's going to suggest that Jones is as good a prospect as Bryant.
Green? Probably closer. Not as physical but has good hands and is "long," tall with long arms and jumping ability.
If he stays healthy, I think Bryant is the most complete WR prospect this side of Johnson -- big, strong, fast, great hands, physical and passionate about the game. It's tough to beat.
Why did he fall? Well, I'm not the guy to ask because I think it was Retarded. He missed a year and developed a reputation as a flake (not a tool or a criminal, mind you). I think Banks is right: A lot of teams would like a do-over. Considering the Browns tried to trade back into the first round to get him, I would be interested to hear how Holmgren feels about him.
For the record, my draft crush last year was obviously Bryant. The year before it was Sanchez and Hakeem Nicks. My biggest draft crush of all time was Aaron Rodgers. I was pretty high on Lights Out. I'm not gonna steal Heckert's job, but I think that's not too bad.
Does raise the question of where A.J. and Julio fit with Dez. A lot of the top draftnicks declared Bryant the best WR talent in the draft since Calvin Johnson... and I'm not sure you could find too many who disagreed then or now.
Jones is a beast and a great prospect, but you're not gonna hear that kind of talk because he just hasn't displayed Bryant's ball skills. I don't honestly believe anybody's going to suggest that Jones is as good a prospect as Bryant.
Green? Probably closer. Not as physical but has good hands and is "long," tall with long arms and jumping ability.
For me, it's Green > Bryant > Jones. But I do know a couple people who like Julio more than Dez.
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Does raise the question of where A.J. and Julio fit with Dez. A lot of the top draftnicks declared Bryant the best WR talent in the draft since Calvin Johnson... and I'm not sure you could find too many who disagreed then or now.
Jones is a beast and a great prospect, but you're not gonna hear that kind of talk because he just hasn't displayed Bryant's ball skills. I don't honestly believe anybody's going to suggest that Jones is as good a prospect as Bryant.
Green? Probably closer. Not as physical but has good hands and is "long," tall with long arms and jumping ability.
For me, it's Green > Bryant > Jones. But I do know a couple people who like Julio more than Dez.
For me, it's Green > Bryant > Jones. But I do know a couple people who like Julio more than Dez.
I have them excatly the same Bryant is a beast but i think A.J. Green is a better Charcter and is just lanky in the sense of Randy Moss ese, but as far as Bryant vs Haden thats a tough decision i mean it just depends on position of value, CB or WR i think Bryant is going to be one of the best Receivers in the NFL for the next years unless injured, and Haden if he turns into a shutdown corner and continues to develop then he'd have to Revis status because i believe the roof is so high on Bryant, not regretting anything we did this draft is Bryant a stud yeah is Haden showing that he is was worth the pick yeah so im not upset ethier way..Also a bonus for us is both positions in Next year draft are just as good if not better WR class of 2011 is incredible and the Corner prospects next year are the best that have come in a while so you could look at this way we could have Haden and Green or Bryant and Peterson OR Amukamara.. So ethier way i look at it you really cant lose
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Then it comes down to being a QB thing and not a WR or CB thing. The reason Manning did so well against Revis is because he is Manning. You could put our receivers with him and I guarantee at least one becomes a big time player.
This is where we wind ourselves back to total agreement. It's no coincidence that Indy, New Orleans, Green Bay, and New England keep finding "steals" all over the draft at WR and TE (Tamme? Huh?).
I think there's a point at which a WR simply can't play, can't get open. I think that's true of Robiskie because he isn't strong, fast, OR quick. There are also guys who just seems to have an instinct and there are other guys who can make plays when they're covered. But you gotta have SOMETHING.
But on the QB thing... I totally agree. It's so much more important than anything else, you really can't even think of it as an ordinary "position." It's way bigger than that.
This is where we wind ourselves back to total agreement. It's no coincidence that Indy, New Orleans, Green Bay, and New England keep finding "steals" all over the draft at WR and TE (Tamme? Huh?).
I think there's a point at which a WR simply can't play, can't get open. I think that's true of Robiskie because he isn't strong, fast, OR quick. There are also guys who just seems to have an instinct and there are other guys who can make plays when they're covered. But you gotta have SOMETHING.
But on the QB thing... I totally agree. It's so much more important than anything else, you really can't even think of it as an ordinary "position." It's way bigger than that.
VERY well said Shep! There's actually been STARS that didn't always get alot of seperation downfield. The first few names that come to mind are Larry Fitzgerald, Cris Carter and Michael Irvin. ALL of those guys had the following perks: IDEAL receiving corps with accurate passers.
Look at Irvin. He had Novacek at TE, Aikman at QB and a 1st round talent like Alvin Harper with killer speed and he could leap out of the hole in that Dallas roof back in the day. On top of that, they had the personnel guru that added the oline to protect Aikman. The RB & FB were also very good receivers out of the backfield. Safeties couldn't help corners for the variety of collateral targets I just mentioned. It's nice when you have the reliability of an accurate passer orkign in tandem with his confidence to throw passes to a well covered receiver. ALOT of Irvin's catches show him shaking off defenders during/after the catch(even before it).
Cris Carter. How about sticking Randy Moss and Jake Reed in the same formation? Holy snappin arsens! Then you got Robert Smith out of the backfield while opposing DBs are arguing over who has to cover Randy's Moss. The POINT of that is Cris Carter got some favorable matchups against some #2 corners as instantly as it was discovered what happens when you put a #2 on Randy's Moss. Cris Carter became best known for circus catches in traffic. GREAT hands, better focus and underrated athleticism.
Fitzgerald with Boldin, Breaston and Warner was Superbowl-worthy in a place that's never been. Again, Boldin present meant some favorable matchups for Fitzgerald. That said, this guy has always caught the football in traffic. It only made sense when they added a QB with the accuracy of Warner - that this guy would get a center stage of Superbowl Sunday during that span. Unfortunatey, it also only makes sense that the removal of Boldin and the transition from Warner to DA was gonna represent major shrinkage in numbers and happily ever after.
When we speak of Dez Bryant as it relates to this discussion - who here HONESTLY believes Cleveland was more conducive to early success for him? Who's our Miles Austin to snag the #1 corner in the matchup to leave Dez a more favorable matchup vrs the #2 or #3 corner? Roy Williams has something like 5 TD receptions right out of the shoot taking on #2 corners so TRUST me about the matchup perks the UNDRAFTED Mile Austin allotted. On top of that, what Safety AVOIDS Jason Witten to help out on 1 of the WRs? What talented rookie WR wouldn't WANT such a setup? Let's be honest, if Dez Bryant is your calendar boy - was Cleveland going to be a better environment for success than one with a Pro Bowl WR, Pro Bowl TE, Pro Bowl QB and 2009 playoff experience?
This thread wasn't meant to insult Browns' fans folks. Liked my FRIEND Shep wanted to show everybody - I'm not one that can afford to quit my day job for my football personnel predictions. In FACT, I'm very forthright about reminding people I once fell for the old NFL Contract will ensure William Green's talents will supercede his past and that family genetics/learnings won't have any bearing. He actually FINISHED his rookie season. One of the main reasons we made the playoffs is because they took the ball out of Couch's throwing hand; and put it under William Green's arm pit the second half of 2002. End result? He averaged 100 yards rushing per game over the last 6 weeks of the season. The punctuation that put the Browns in the playoffs was Green's 164 yard rushing performance vrs the playoff bound Falcons. Early the next season, Green had 100 yard performances vrs Oakland and Pitt. Unfortunately, week 6 is when William could NOT run away from his past. I think his girlfriend with the knife reminds us of the types of decisions a guy with bad parental role models can learn to make. Again, I don't read about many stabbings accompanying the mellow art of a Tommy Chong cigarette. You add alcohol and/or cocaine or crack to the formula and suddenly I understand the math. Anyway, I was INDEED wrong about William Green so when I saw Dez Bryant coming I saw VERy similar parents whne the father was in his 40s at the time he knocked up Dez's 15 year old mother. That's prolly WHY some smart GMs wanted to know if his mom was a prostitute considering she did jail time for selling drugs and had countless sexual encounters with complete stangers of all ages not concerned about her age. Sound like someone ready to teach great decision making skills to their offspring? DECISIONS are what ended William Green's career at about the same time he had just proven to himself he could rush for multiple 100 yard games at the NFL level. DECISIONS are also why Dez was getting BAD press about showing up for college games late, missing meetings and finding himself suspended in his last year at Ok State. Red flags? You bet! Let's hope he doesn't get as bored as he did with his scholarship. He's got the PERFECT opportunity in Dallas that Cleveland was nowhere near ready to give him in 2010.
- Tom F
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Hayden starting playing when he was ready. He has had excellent coaching for Jerome Henderson who in turn was coached by Mangini. Hayden has benefited from having Mangini (who is one of the foremost authorities on secondary play in the NFL). Hayden is a high character guy which is a trait Mangini insists on anyone that come aboard. Mangini is very demanding..Hayden has great work ethic and intelligence..something Coach also demands...Dez is lacking in all of these areas..
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I am not a huge fan of decisions made from "one time" Combine showings (Haden's supposed slowness) dropping a player's stock. Haden was the ONLY guy I wanted with our pick & he was possibly the safest pick on the board. He was & is:
-- High character, with a solid family behind him.
-- Intelligent
-- Extremely athletic
-- Durable
-- FAST!
-- Highly competitive
-- Self motivated
-- Team oriented
Can we say "Total Package"?The kid has NEVER had the issues that Dez had, although I won't judge Dez & wish him well. Haden, as a rule, covers receivers like a glove & is a joy to watch tackling. He is just so fundamentally sound that it's almost scary.
When we speak of character, Joe Haden showed it well when he wasn't starting. He HAS to know his own talent level, yet he NEVER came off as frustrated or hurt about not starting (even when he obviously SHOULD have been).
Yeah, I know.....I sound like a Joe Haden "groupie", & so be it. I just love his attitude & the way he plays football. The kid is a "throwback" in the way he plays the game.
Joe Haden is a flat out FOOTBALL PLAYER & I find it hard to believe that anyone would question him as our 1st pick.
Mike
IN DORSEY I TRUST -
Does raise the question of where A.J. and Julio fit with Dez. A lot of the top draftnicks declared Bryant the best WR talent in the draft since Calvin Johnson... and I'm not sure you could find too many who disagreed then or now.
Jones is a beast and a great prospect, but you're not gonna hear that kind of talk because he just hasn't displayed Bryant's ball skills. I don't honestly believe anybody's going to suggest that Jones is as good a prospect as Bryant.
Green? Probably closer. Not as physical but has good hands and is "long," tall with long arms and jumping ability.
For me, it's Green > Bryant > Jones. But I do know a couple people who like Julio more than Dez.
For me, it's Green > Bryant > Jones. But I do know a couple people who like Julio more than Dez.
There's a TON of teams that don't play defense in that Big 12 so sometimes it gets difficult to peg which guys are the real deal and which ones won't transition to expectation level. It wasn't THAT long ago I heard Michael Crabtree was gonna light up the NFL like a Christmas tree. I even recalled warning some people he's not gonna have the mad scientist getting him the SAME favorable matchups in empty backfield spreads he got spoiled with in his conference. I was told "the kid's a stud and it won't matter." Hmmm, they seem to be complaining about offensive coordinators quite a bit in SF the last 2 years. I'm still waiting for him to look like everything people promised on his behalf.
Is Dez talented? Of course he is. That said, did he get challenged in conference as often as players like Jones and Green? I don't think so - so I don't think we have an accurate apples to apples working. The SEC just gave us a corner who earned player of the month to remind us of the type of talents Jones and Green compete against in conference. Consider this: how many of these Oklahoma Sooner WR studs have done ANYTHING in the NFL? Mark Clayton? Iglesius? Malcolm King? On the other hand, Jeremy Maclin came from the same conference and looks like e very nice draft pick for Heckert.
I've been REALLY fond of AJ Green since he aced the freshman transtion with 10 TD receptions. That shows me GOOD at level transition. At the beginning of 2010, I thought Julio Jones was overrated UNTIL I started to watch more of him down the stretch. I didn't realize he was 6'4" because of how well he moves that frame around. I think he and Green have better gears than Dez although I'm impressed at how fluidly Bryants hips enable him to change directions and apply the shake and bake when necessary. I waffle back and forth in preference between Green and Jones.
Back to the context/purpose of this article. Since I NEVER wanted Dez I was more than happy to remind people the draft won't run out of talented WRs in round 1 of 2011. That being the case, to add Green/Jones in round 1 of 2011 with Joe Haden already in the house from round 1 of 2010. My guess is we'll have a better chance at Jones. Just so we don't forget Heckert's understanding of the WR position, he already drafted Jeremy Maclin and DeSean Jackson. If that doesn't build our trust - then we're stubborn.
- Tom F.
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I am not a huge fan of decisions made from "one time" Combine showings (Haden's supposed slowness) dropping a player's stock. Haden was the ONLY guy I wanted with our pick & he was possibly the safest pick on the board. He was & is:
-- High character, with a solid family behind him.
-- Intelligent
-- Extremely athletic
-- Durable
-- FAST!
-- Highly competitive
-- Self motivated
-- Team oriented
Can we say "Total Package"?The kid has NEVER had the issues that Dez had, although I won't judge Dez & wish him well. Haden, as a rule, covers receivers like a glove & is a joy to watch tackling. He is just so fundamentally sound that it's almost scary.
When we speak of character, Joe Haden showed it well when he wasn't starting. He HAS to know his own talent level, yet he NEVER came off as frustrated or hurt about not starting (even when he obviously SHOULD have been).
Yeah, I know.....I sound like a Joe Haden "groupie", & so be it. I just love his attitude & the way he plays football. The kid is a "throwback" in the way he plays the game.
Joe Haden is a flat out FOOTBALL PLAYER & I find it hard to believe that anyone would question him as our 1st pick.
Mike
I am not a huge fan of decisions made from "one time" Combine showings (Haden's supposed slowness) dropping a player's stock. Haden was the ONLY guy I wanted with our pick & he was possibly the safest pick on the board. He was & is:
-- High character, with a solid family behind him.
-- Intelligent
-- Extremely athletic
-- Durable
-- FAST!
-- Highly competitive
-- Self motivated
-- Team oriented
Can we say "Total Package"?The kid has NEVER had the issues that Dez had, although I won't judge Dez & wish him well. Haden, as a rule, covers receivers like a glove & is a joy to watch tackling. He is just so fundamentally sound that it's almost scary.
When we speak of character, Joe Haden showed it well when he wasn't starting. He HAS to know his own talent level, yet he NEVER came off as frustrated or hurt about not starting (even when he obviously SHOULD have been).
Yeah, I know.....I sound like a Joe Haden "groupie", & so be it. I just love his attitude & the way he plays football. The kid is a "throwback" in the way he plays the game.
Joe Haden is a flat out FOOTBALL PLAYER & I find it hard to believe that anyone would question him as our 1st pick.
Mike
Excellent insights CM! There's a cone drill assessment or 2 that Joe Haden did extremely well with at Indy that are much more parallel to his position demands than a straight ahead 40 yard sprint from a sprinters stance. If somebody could point out 1 corner in the NFL that didn't start off a play in a 2 point stance with their backs to the goal line they are defending - please share it. Haden's strengths are open field tackling, fluid hips, GREAT instincts, intelligence, overall fitness, vision as well as hand-eye ccordination and the willingness to do ALL the little things right from stance to final whistle. Canton Mike covered alot of those already.
While the Indy combines always intrigue me - there's some assessments that could be upgraded IMO. Indy doesn't measure ALL those Haden strengths any more than it measures QBs under time constraints so there's false positives and false negatives that are going to continue. And some of the personal QB workouts where QB and agent get to set it up so weaknesses are concealed enable goofballs like Alex Smith, Kyle Boller, JP's Lost-man, Jamarcus Russell, and many others can continue to get drafted WAY ahead of capability. The time to learn Alex Smith has terrible depth perception at the speed of the NFL game isn't AFTER you've given him the signing bonus of a #1 overall draft pick. How many more OCs are they gonna fire before a spade gets seen as a spade? How would you like to be Mike Singeltary with that on the Head Coaching tombstone? While we're at it, where were Tom Brady, Tony Romo, Matt Hasselbeck, Matt Cassell, and Kurt Warner deemed draftworthy?
I remembered bringing up what a mid round steal Arian Foster would be a couple years ago since UT was on tv alot in Nashville. Somebody, can't remember if it was Heck or Alo, said he's not even draftable Tom even though I agree with your assessment he runs hard. Whichever guy it was - he wasn't trying to be a dick at all. He was trying to remind me what the scouts look for in what they deem draftable and highly draftable. Turns out Heck or Alo was right because somebody with an Ernest Byner 40 time was NOT drafted in rounds 1-7 any more than Byner was back in the day. Arian Foster is an undrafted RB that Indy criteria deems not draftworthy. Perhaps I should re-word that to scouts not deeming it draftworthy. And MAYBE he wasn't even on the Indy invite list. Can't remember. Pretty good back today though right? The BIGGEST difference between him and Hillis is the reality that Andre Johnson removes Safeties from cheating up into the box. It's kind of scary to think of how much better Hillis will be once we add a Green or a Jones at WR. I supposed defenses can still have a minimum of 9 defenders playing the run; but we'll finally have somebody on the perimeter that can make them pay for doing so.
- Tom F.
-
And both are way better than Fluges' fave, C.J. Spiller!! Love you, Thomas.
As to the quoted post, this is the only rational take here. Nobody nowhere is saying Bryant WASN'T a steal. The re-do draft had Haden at 17 and Bryant at 8, right? As Jaws said, Bryant simply looks like the best football player on the field most of the time. He's a tremendous talent and it clearly showed. To the surprise of almost nobody, he's been a great teammate and stayed out trouble (something he's done his whole life).
Haden has really, REALLY come on, and I'm thrilled. I was iffy on the pick because I don't know how much a CB can affect the bottom line with the rules changes. I did NOT say he wasn't good. He's a very good corner with a chance to be great. Has his emergence pushed us to a winning streak? Well... no. But he's an excellent corner and in today's NFL you need at least one shutdown guy. So I'm not nearly as disgruntled as I was.
Would I still like to have taken Dez Bryant first and a corner later? Yup. But that's irrelevant. As I've said, the Browns and others are probably lucky I'm not the GM (and Fluges, too, who would've picked Spiller). But my pick still would have been Bryant.
LOL! Nice to see you too Shep! I hope you're not as premature with Spiller as you were with slapping the epic bust label on Joe Haden during the OTAs. You had all kinds of early conclusions made before the guy ever put his shoulder pads on for the first time. Come to think of it, didn't you trash Colt McCoy just as early and just as often? You pretty much assured everyone that Jimmy Clausen was going to be way better and had the NFL arm Colt McCoy could only dream of. Haven't we always debated your premature conclusions like Dennis Northcutt heading straight for the NFL Hall of Fame after his first minicamp? I don't think we've ever started a bigger candyass at WR than Northcutt if I'm being honest.
For FUN, not to be confused with thinking I can quit my day job, I traditionally pick 1 offensive guy and 1 defensive guy I want in round 1. I do this because I'm never sure we're going offense or defense first. In 2010 - Joe Haden was my defensive favorite (with a fierce competition from Eric Berry; but RAC didn't go ALL the way to UT to workout Berry simply because he wanted to be a nice guy). My offensive choice for 2010 was Spiller. Seeing how Buffalo traded Marshawn Lynch instead of Spiller - I'm guessing they feel very good about his future like the Browns once did when Greg Pruitt once cracked in as a kickoff/punt returner in the rookie season. Spiller has returned a kickoff for a TD in 2010 and he's getting reps with the first offense. Just out of curiosity, did Dez Bryant get drafted AHEAD of Spiller or AFTER him? And is Dez Bryant the leading receiver in Dallas? 2nd leading receiver? 3rd leading Receiver? He was 3rd behind the UNDRAFTED Austin and Witten when his season ended.
The rationale behind the Spiller fondness? In 2009, I often posted here that I wanted Percy Harvin in round 1 at a position I felt we were weak at - Wide Receiver. That said, we've also seen Harvin score from a hand off in the pros just like he did the last time Florida defeated Alabama. He's got a rare blend of speed and power that you can attack a defense and STs with in so many ways. I see a ginormous similarity to CJ Spiller particularly in their build, speed and hands. AND my research showed he had the 2nd highest reception volume of ALL of the highest rated RBs coming out (2nd only to hardesty I believe). This shows me the RIGHT Coaching staff could easily use him in the slot if need be, as a 3rd down RB and return kicks/punts from the getgo. I was wanting Spiller to be the next Percy Harvin. Are you willing to fess up and tell everyone that you were one of the first ones to tell me we were drafting too high in round 1 to consider Harvin? You might want to research who ran away with Offensive Rookie of the Year honors that season. I think I get it right sometimes Shep even if you hate people knowing that.
Worth noting: Minnesota got BETTER when Harvin was added to their offense. Come to think of it - it was the first season Sidney Rice ever enjoyed favorable matchups. Consequently, Rice had a breakout year and suddenly that bust word disappeared in Minnesota. It took the 3 years + Percy Harvin stealing attention from secondaries to enable Rice to showcase his talents. Hmmmm, sounds like Harvin had quite the rookie impact. That's EXACTLY what I see Spiller capable of with the understanding that guys emerge into full capabilities at varying rates. Unfortunately, Dallas did NOT get better this year. Let's just hope for your sake he doesn't have ankles like Yao Ming or it won't be very Chow Ming.
- Tom F. (I never could make up my mind if I wanted Spiller or Haden more - it changed with the wind)
Let's have some fun, here, Thomas! Good to have you around.
I knew Haden was a good football player. I stated so over and over, that he was a legit first round pick at CB. My issue was (and still kinda is) that #7 at that position has to be squeaky clean. As good as Haden has been the past month or so, I still don't know whether he can affect the bottom line enough to be worth that slot. Honestly, I don't know if freaking Revis can do enough to get paid like a quarterback, or Nmande or whatever his name is.
But that's me and I know plenty of people disagree. I'll even allow that I might not have enough respect for the CB position, given that it's a passing league (I think pass rushers will be the answer, considering the rules that handcuff CBs). I would still take Bryant and a corner a little later... but we'll never know which would have been the best for wins and losses. Plus, if we get our #1 in the next draft, it really won't matter. Big picture and all that.
I never believed Haden would be a full-on bust. I would have liked to have seen him start right away if he was really a Top 10 pick at CB... but that doesn't matter now.
LOL! Nice to see you too Shep! I hope you're not as premature with Spiller as you were with slapping the epic bust label on Joe Haden during the OTAs. You had all kinds of early conclusions made before the guy ever put his shoulder pads on for the first time. Come to think of it, didn't you trash Colt McCoy just as early and just as often? You pretty much assured everyone that Jimmy Clausen was going to be way better and had the NFL arm Colt McCoy could only dream of. Haven't we always debated your premature conclusions like Dennis Northcutt heading straight for the NFL Hall of Fame after his first minicamp? I don't think we've ever started a bigger candyass at WR than Northcutt if I'm being honest.
For FUN, not to be confused with thinking I can quit my day job, I traditionally pick 1 offensive guy and 1 defensive guy I want in round 1. I do this because I'm never sure we're going offense or defense first. In 2010 - Joe Haden was my defensive favorite (with a fierce competition from Eric Berry; but RAC didn't go ALL the way to UT to workout Berry simply because he wanted to be a nice guy). My offensive choice for 2010 was Spiller. Seeing how Buffalo traded Marshawn Lynch instead of Spiller - I'm guessing they feel very good about his future like the Browns once did when Greg Pruitt once cracked in as a kickoff/punt returner in the rookie season. Spiller has returned a kickoff for a TD in 2010 and he's getting reps with the first offense. Just out of curiosity, did Dez Bryant get drafted AHEAD of Spiller or AFTER him? And is Dez Bryant the leading receiver in Dallas? 2nd leading receiver? 3rd leading Receiver? He was 3rd behind the UNDRAFTED Austin and Witten when his season ended.
The rationale behind the Spiller fondness? In 2009, I often posted here that I wanted Percy Harvin in round 1 at a position I felt we were weak at - Wide Receiver. That said, we've also seen Harvin score from a hand off in the pros just like he did the last time Florida defeated Alabama. He's got a rare blend of speed and power that you can attack a defense and STs with in so many ways. I see a ginormous similarity to CJ Spiller particularly in their build, speed and hands. AND my research showed he had the 2nd highest reception volume of ALL of the highest rated RBs coming out (2nd only to hardesty I believe). This shows me the RIGHT Coaching staff could easily use him in the slot if need be, as a 3rd down RB and return kicks/punts from the getgo. I was wanting Spiller to be the next Percy Harvin. Are you willing to fess up and tell everyone that you were one of the first ones to tell me we were drafting too high in round 1 to consider Harvin? You might want to research who ran away with Offensive Rookie of the Year honors that season. I think I get it right sometimes Shep even if you hate people knowing that.
Worth noting: Minnesota got BETTER when Harvin was added to their offense. Come to think of it - it was the first season Sidney Rice ever enjoyed favorable matchups. Consequently, Rice had a breakout year and suddenly that bust word disappeared in Minnesota. It took the 3 years + Percy Harvin stealing attention from secondaries to enable Rice to showcase his talents. Hmmmm, sounds like Harvin had quite the rookie impact. That's EXACTLY what I see Spiller capable of with the understanding that guys emerge into full capabilities at varying rates. Unfortunately, Dallas did NOT get better this year. Let's just hope for your sake he doesn't have ankles like Yao Ming or it won't be very Chow Ming.
- Tom F. (I never could make up my mind if I wanted Spiller or Haden more - it changed with the wind)
-
Okay, I cant help but to chime in here, Fluges makes good points in regards to injuries, suspensions etc....
But it all depends on how you view Dez Bryant, If you beleieve Dez is what many see him to be (perennial pro-bowler, potential MVP etc), then it really comes down to what Shep is saying, Revis IS beatable, just as Manning IS stoppable, it comes down to your cup of tea and how you like it.
I can say on Bryants behalf, that he can do things, that NO other player in the league can do, period, some of the catches he can real in are simply unattainable for other players, the same as some of the plays he makes on his feet.
Drafting Joe Haden was worth it no doubt, he CAN be Revis, but then you have to talk about potentials.... what would you rather have on your team? Production of a hall of fame CB on your team, or production of a hall of fame WR on your team, what helps you more, which do you prefer? Thats the real discussion. and if we delve into that, there will just be disagreement... and pain... because some people are offense centric, and others are defense centric, and neither will budge
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