Bye Bye Mangini
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Wouldn't mind having John Fox.
Wouldn't mind having John Fox.
Please NO, I watched him underachieve in Charlotte for six years.............andt AGAIN I repeat it is not Holmgren's MO to hire a defensive minded guy. He is going to bring in an offensive minded guy. Fox is defensive minded and three yards and cloud of dust and a loses. Why bring in a certified track record loser?
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i'm pretty sure that holmgren won't coach. i don't see how one could be president of football operations and succesfully coach a team at the same time.
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Clearly you didnt read the whole thing. It was a full of sarcasm. Somehow we get AJ Green, Julio Jones, Justin Blackmon and Ryan Broyles? Sounds like people should believe that, or that Vick will end up here.
Come on man!
you're right i skimmed. my bad! but with everything else that has been posted over the past few days, it is harder to distinguish sarcasm from stupidity...
you're right i skimmed. my bad! but with everything else that has been posted over the past few days, it is harder to distinguish sarcasm from stupidity...
HAHA, so true.
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>>Mangini will be gone and someone besides Holmgren will the coach and HE WILL BE OFFENSIVE MINDED................book it
>>I am on record for questioning Mangini's ability to be a long-term and successful coach in the NFL. I saw his team quit on him in NY and he is very green in terms of head coaching material.
This being said - and I have seen little of the Browns this year - what I have seen is a team coming together, a team playing competitively, albeit lacking a lot of NFL talent and a team, just maybe, on the cusp of being a good team in a really tough division.
I believe he deserves another year.
However, I wonder if Holmgren kept him around this year, simply because he didn't want to turn EVERYTHING upside down in one year. Maybe he thought Mangini could serve as a caretaker considering the team has a lot of holes to fill. Maybe he wants to bring in his own guy.
I don't know but I do believe Mangini has done a job worthy of being brought back next year.
It probably won't happen but I hope it does.
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>>Mangini will be gone and someone besides Holmgren will the coach and HE WILL BE OFFENSIVE MINDED................book it
>>I am on record for questioning Mangini's ability to be a long-term and successful coach in the NFL. I saw his team quit on him in NY and he is very green in terms of head coaching material.
This being said - and I have seen little of the Browns this year - what I have seen is a team coming together, a team playing competitively, albeit lacking a lot of NFL talent and a team, just maybe, on the cusp of being a good team in a really tough division.
I believe he deserves another year.
However, I wonder if Holmgren kept him around this year, simply because he didn't want to turn EVERYTHING upside down in one year. Maybe he thought Mangini could serve as a caretaker considering the team has a lot of holes to fill. Maybe he wants to bring in his own guy.
I don't know but I do believe Mangini has done a job worthy of being brought back next year.
It probably won't happen but I hope it does.
>>Mangini will be gone and someone besides Holmgren will the coach and HE WILL BE OFFENSIVE MINDED................book it>>
I am on record for questioning Mangini's ability to be a long-term and successful coach in the NFL. I saw his team quit on him in NY and he is very green in terms of head coaching material.
This being said - and I have seen little of the Browns this year - what I have seen is a team coming together, a team playing competitively, albeit lacking a lot of NFL talent and a team, just maybe, on the cusp of being a good team in a really tough division.
I believe he deserves another year.
However, I wonder if Holmgren kept him around this year, simply because he didn't want to turn EVERYTHING upside down in one year. Maybe he thought Mangini could serve as a caretaker considering the team has a lot of holes to fill. Maybe he wants to bring in his own guy.
I don't know but I do believe Mangini has done a job worthy of being brought back next year.
It probably won't happen but I hope it does.
Just my .02 I think Mangini needs to win one of the last two games to stick around- a repeat of last year's 5-11 probably won't be good enough, even though the team has played competitively.
Yes, the Browns got shredded on the ground by the Bengals- but I'll listen to the crickets chirp while the Can-Gini crowd comes up with a Cleveland linebacker playing in that game who could start for the Steelers. Yes, Hillis was getting stopped, but McCoy has great options at WR no? Massaquoi MIGHT be able to beat out Shipley as the Bengals slot receiver.
No, it's not all players- and I'm sure the conservative game planning has to grate on Holmgren. But we'll see what happens AFTER the season. To me it's laughable the way the "heave ho, Mangini's gotta go" chorus cranks up after every loss.
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Add Bud Shaw to Steve D. as writers who think Holmgren will be lured to the sideline by Colt McCoy... then turn the program over to Gruden in 2012.
I know I'm teeing myself up again... but I think this debate ended the second the Browns lost to the Bills and Bengals to go to 5-9, especially with McCoy and Hillis questioning the team's motivation. Mangini was coaching for his job and most were surprised he was retained... and even a split of the last two games would put the Browns at 6-10. Marla Ridnour says her sources tell her there may not be an official number, but that ain't it (to paraphrase Yogi Berra).
I think the notion of the Browns maintaining continuity by only removing Mangini is a possibility that might appeal to Holmgren. No new hires. He slides into the HC position, Haskell slides into OC, and we move forward as a WCO team and a 3-4 team.
Let's be real, though: It would be unusual. It's more likely that Holmgren dumps everybody.
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@king-ghoolie-lives said:
This is a very good and frequently asked comment. So let's be fair about it. Guys like you and I really have the Jones for the Super bowl. We all do. But here is the unfair part of using the SB as a ruler. The SB is big, bold, glitzy, flashy, sexy and for 30 teams every year, unattainable.So really, if you were to put any coach on stage and ask the question......... "is the guy to get us to a super bowl", most coaches that haven't been there, probably would not elicit a huge YES from the fans. No disrespect meant, but really how can we say any man is the guy who will get us there?
When you take a look at Mangini's press demeanor, he comes off as a polite, non-talkative guy. Not flashy, not boisterous. Judging the way we fans are conditioned by the media to think, maybe we can't see clearly.
I always thought Cowher was a great coach. If he never won a SB I wouldn't think any less of him. Marty never made it to a SB, but does that make him a bad coach?
I can flip this back on you. What would the Browns record be with Gruden coaching? Can you say without a doubt he would have done better than Mangini?
Of the coaches you like, who do you think would have taken THIS Browns team to the SB?
What is it that you feel Mangini hasn't done, that if he did, would have lead to more wins? Would this team be 10 - 4 with Gruden or Cowher? See, I don't think so.
Another flip, what do you think our record would have been IF we had a flashy, explosive running back, a break away WR and a badass pass rusher and bone crushing shut down DB?
According to the CB website we lost 8 football games by 7 points or less, and a bunch by 3 or 4.
Yet one more flip............ if Mangini had a flashy RB, potent WR, badass DB and one more pass rusher, do you really think we would not have put more than 7 points on the board in most of, if not ALL of those 8 games? DO you also think that the added talent on D would not have lowered our opponents scores?
From what I can see, the Mangini Browns were a few players away from reasonably being a 12 - 2 team this year.
Final flip - You think Gruden would have been this consistent and disciplined with the talent we have?
Can Mangini get us to the SB? I know this much, the guy has been consistently respectable and just a twat hair away from a bunch of wins.
Firing this kid will be a mistake, and a huge one at that. The shakey, flakey condition of our management has made Mangini's status here unsure, at best. He has performed under a lot of clouds and doubts AND more importantly to remember, today's players aren't the most noble as a group. Point being, if some of them perceived that Mangini wasn't going to be here long, they may have either loafed, or in the case of the players who don't like him, maybe not given everything.
Can he get us to the SB? He is a better coach and has more principles than Gruden. I don't believe Gruden would have held this team together.
Again, if Mangini gets fired, we will live to regret it. I think this guy has championship values and a champion's heart. That's the important thing to find.
Very good insight.. I must say I am not sure Gruden would have been the right coach this year. Im not sold on Gruden being a guy who can handle the rebuilding process. He is more the sexy, hoo ra ra coach.. I do beleive with the peices in place he is a very good coach and can maximize his talent.
When you ask what would mangini have done with a star WR, a pass rusher.. Im really not sure.. Thats what scares me on Mangini..
Let me ask you, what happens if mangini stays next year and we have another below 500 season? What would be your expectations with Mangini 3rd year?
a 3rd year under mangini in which we have 6 or less wins would really put us back. It wouldnt only be Mangini taking heat but now the Heckert and Holmgren.
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@king-ghoolie-lives said:
This is a very good and frequently asked comment. So let's be fair about it. Guys like you and I really have the Jones for the Super bowl. We all do. But here is the unfair part of using the SB as a ruler. The SB is big, bold, glitzy, flashy, sexy and for 30 teams every year, unattainable.So really, if you were to put any coach on stage and ask the question......... "is the guy to get us to a super bowl", most coaches that haven't been there, probably would not elicit a huge YES from the fans. No disrespect meant, but really how can we say any man is the guy who will get us there?
When you take a look at Mangini's press demeanor, he comes off as a polite, non-talkative guy. Not flashy, not boisterous. Judging the way we fans are conditioned by the media to think, maybe we can't see clearly.
I always thought Cowher was a great coach. If he never won a SB I wouldn't think any less of him. Marty never made it to a SB, but does that make him a bad coach?
I can flip this back on you. What would the Browns record be with Gruden coaching? Can you say without a doubt he would have done better than Mangini?
Of the coaches you like, who do you think would have taken THIS Browns team to the SB?
What is it that you feel Mangini hasn't done, that if he did, would have lead to more wins? Would this team be 10 - 4 with Gruden or Cowher? See, I don't think so.
Another flip, what do you think our record would have been IF we had a flashy, explosive running back, a break away WR and a badass pass rusher and bone crushing shut down DB?
According to the CB website we lost 8 football games by 7 points or less, and a bunch by 3 or 4.
Yet one more flip............ if Mangini had a flashy RB, potent WR, badass DB and one more pass rusher, do you really think we would not have put more than 7 points on the board in most of, if not ALL of those 8 games? DO you also think that the added talent on D would not have lowered our opponents scores?
From what I can see, the Mangini Browns were a few players away from reasonably being a 12 - 2 team this year.
Final flip - You think Gruden would have been this consistent and disciplined with the talent we have?
Can Mangini get us to the SB? I know this much, the guy has been consistently respectable and just a twat hair away from a bunch of wins.
Firing this kid will be a mistake, and a huge one at that. The shakey, flakey condition of our management has made Mangini's status here unsure, at best. He has performed under a lot of clouds and doubts AND more importantly to remember, today's players aren't the most noble as a group. Point being, if some of them perceived that Mangini wasn't going to be here long, they may have either loafed, or in the case of the players who don't like him, maybe not given everything.
Can he get us to the SB? He is a better coach and has more principles than Gruden. I don't believe Gruden would have held this team together.
Again, if Mangini gets fired, we will live to regret it. I think this guy has championship values and a champion's heart. That's the important thing to find.
agree 1000%. as others have said "the grass is always greener ".
i know i can come off as being against gruden but i'm really not. i'm against the OMG we're not in the playoffs, fire the coach faction of our fan base. let the MFer sit down and stretch out, order a drink before you run him out of town already. geez imagine if these guys went into their new job and didn't know when to take out the fries when the bell rings......they'd be out whistling dixie before the sun hit their wives' ass down on the docks. imagine their 11 kids then.
in all seriousness... let the guy fulfill his contract and let's see what he can do next year....with the draft, fa and all. next year: no playoffs....send him packing.
agree 1000%. as others have said "the grass is always greener ".
i know i can come off as being against gruden but i'm really not. i'm against the OMG we're not in the playoffs, fire the coach faction of our fan base. let the MFer sit down and stretch out, order a drink before you run him out of town already. geez imagine if these guys went into their new job and didn't know when to take out the fries when the bell rings......they'd be out whistling dixie before the sun hit their wives' ass down on the docks. imagine their 11 kids then.
in all seriousness... let the guy fulfill his contract and let's see what he can do next year....with the draft, fa and all. next year: no playoffs....send him packing.
Im not sure I follow alot of your arguments. No one here said play offs. I think we were thinking 7 or 8 wins.
You also talk a whole bunch about guys not giving enough time to turn things around. So since we have been back in the league, who have we run out of town??
Romeo, Butch Davis, Chris Palmer??? Really, your telling me if we stuck we any of these bafoons we would be a solid team now?
Its like this, what if you were driving in the wrong direction but have already turned around a couple of times.. Would you keep on driving hoping you made it to your destination? If you feel Mangini is the guy then you keep him, if you dont then you replace him.
Its not at black and white as that, but to stay the course for the purpose of stability is just a foolish argument.
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I also feel that McCoy will have a better NFL career than Vince Young and i dono about Fisher as well just wanted to get your take on it, i do not believe Holmgerm will step down and become HC i just dont see it happening maybe they bring in someone new but id like to see mangini get one more year to put a couple more of the peices of the puzzle togehter
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Yeah im not sold on Fox i wouldnt mind if Rob Ryan bolts for a HC job we bring him in as Defensive Cordinator i think he runs a 4-3 defense though, same can be said as Lovie Smith wouldnt want him as a HC but a great DC and he plays a Cover 2 4-3 defense when we've been trying to draft and surrond this team to mold the 3-4
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This is just my opinion but this is who i think will be the next coaching staff
HC: Mike Holmgren or Jon Gruden
OC: Jim Zorn
DC: John Fox
and i do believe who ever our next HC is we will make the change to a 4-3 Defence OR we will show multipul fronts
HC: Mike Holmgren or Jon Gruden
Either of these guys will do, but gruden is going to be in high demand and will be expensive or may chose to hold off another year so maybe holmgren holds down the fort until chucky comes home...
OC: Jim Zorn
After daboll a bum off the skids would be an upgrade and thats about how much an upgrade this casket bait would be..
DC: John Fox
He has been an HC to long to consider a step down..
I also believe with a new coach and DC we will go 4-3 and it cant be soon enough..
With mangini we know what to expect, solid below mediocre performance with a new coach even gruden or holmy himself we dont know what to expect other than it has to equate to a better situation with moderately immediate improvement...
HC: Mike Holmgren or Jon Gruden
Either of these guys will do, but gruden is going to be in high demand and will be expensive or may chose to hold off another year so maybe holmgren holds down the fort until chucky comes home...
OC: Jim Zorn
After daboll a bum off the skids would be an upgrade and thats about how much an upgrade this casket bait would be..
DC: John Fox
He has been an HC to long to consider a step down..
I also believe with a new coach and DC we will go 4-3 and it cant be soon enough..
With mangini we know what to expect, solid below mediocre performance with a new coach even gruden or holmy himself we dont know what to expect other than it has to equate to a better situation with moderately immediate improvement...
geez some people are clueless... we have been building our defense to be a 3-4, there is no way we would all of a sudden scratch that for a 4-3. That would set us back another few years...
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A lot has been written in this forum concerning the head coach and going with Mangini and Gruden. There are lovers and haters on both sides. At the end of the day, business will come first, then firends and family in the decision making process. Then, of course, TIMING IS EVERYTHING. Here are some things that enter into the equation and what I think will happen. Holmgren is the key in all of this so it is geared toward what and how I think he assesses things.
Mangini--
a. In 5 years of coaching he has two winning seasons and one post season loss.
b. Keeping him will likely cost at least half per year of what it would take to get Gruden. I can't quote numbers other than Gruden wants $7m per year. Mangini made approx. $2.5m per year as the Jets head coach and reports were he accepted a similar deal with the Browns. If anyone has more Mangini salary specifics, please reply.
c. Mangini has big-time family ties to Cleveland. He is married to Julie Shapiro who is the daughter of Indians President Mark Shapiro and brother-in-law to well-known sports agent Ron Shapiro. Everyone knows Mangini was a former Browns ball boy. If he loses his job in Cleveland, he will have to pick up and move with the kids, grandkids, daughter etc. These are big, behind-the-scenes incentives for him to take less to stay in Cleveland, assuming he gets the chance to do so.
d. Mangini has no long term ties with the Holmgren football family. He owes his NFL coaching chance to Bill Belichick who went to the same college and joined the same fraternity as Mangini.
e. Mangini is so into football his 3 kids' middle names were named after Brett Favre, Bill Belichick, and Rodney Harrison. He loves the Browns. Doesn't really matter, but is a fun factoid.
f. His background is defense.
g. He signed a 4 year deal when he came to Cleveland. In 2 years his record is............not good.
Gruden---
a. In 11 years of coaching he has five winning seasons (and 2 ties where he went 8-8), 5 post season appearances where he won 1 superbowl and lost the other 4 times.
b. Keeping him will likely cost at least $7m per year which is way more than it will cost to keep Mangini.
c. Gruden has ties to Ohio. He was born in Sandusky and played dollege ball in Ohio. He's also publicly stated he grew up a Browns fan. An apparent big issue for Gruden is he has promised his son that he can finish high school in his current location. This leads many to believe he wouldn't come to Cleveland until 2012.
d. Gruden has strong ties to Holmgren. He owes his NFL coaching chance to Holmgren who has taken Gruden with his as he moved from one team to another.
e. Gruden hasn't named his children after football players, or at least he hasn't admittted to it.
f. His background is offense and he is very knowlegeable of the West Coast Office which is the way Holmgren wants the team to go.
g. He has one year left on his contract with ESPN.
Holmgren---
a. He has shown he likes "his people" around him. He has been loyal to his people and vice versa.
b. He wants to coach....but does he REALLY want to coach.
c. He is 100% committed to the West Cost Offense and is considered an offensive "guru".
d. He is credited with developing Favre, Hasslebeck, and Young. Does he need a "Chucky"? Does he want a Chucky?
e. He was high on McCoy before the draft. But, he picked other needs first. Was his intent to wait till 2011 for a franchise QB since he couldn't get there in 2010? If so, as was stated in a recent post, the Browns got a steal for the now franchise-potential McCoy. This leaves the door wide open to get some big name receivers in here and/or beef up the o-line.
f. In 17 years of coaching Holmgren only had 3 losing seasons. He's won a superbowl and had 11 other post season appearances.
g. Holmgren still has much to do in lining up more talented players for the Browns' future.
Randy Lerner---
a. Has shown he will open up his wallet when he needs to do so. I doubt money will be a limiting factor if and when a new coach is needed.
b. He is a business guy. The bottomline is what matters most. Other than revenue, the bottomline in the NFL is wins vs. losses.
c. He will do what Holmgren recommends.
The fans----
a. Whatever is done regarding the head coach, a bunch of people will be pissed off. Likewise, a bunch will be happy.
The others----
a. John Fox and Ray Rhodes have been mentioned. It is my opinion, therefore worth little, that if either come to Cleveland it will only be as defensive coordinator. Rhodes had serious medical issues in the past and I don't know if he is 100% back health-wise.
So, here are the key decisions I see that will be made.
a. Does Mike Holmgren still REALLY want to be the head coach? I say no, for now and probably long term. There's still too much work to be done now to arrange talent. I also don't see him coming in to coach for one season till Chucky can move. He's also a lot older than he used to be and coaching is hard, physical work.
b. Will there be a lockout? If there is, then things will stay status quo. More lockout = more Mangini.
c. Is Mangini the long term answer and has he been successful to get the team turned around fast. I say no. If you compare his success to Holmgren's and Gruden's, Mangini's success is limited at best. He may be a great motivator and instill workmanship among his players (personally, I think the workers are starting to take off each Sunday of late) but his bottomline success is not good. With Ryan's and Mangini's defensive background, the Browns should have been much stronger on defense this year. The Browns did win a couple that no one expected but they've lost 3-4 more they should have won. In the end, Mangini's people that he brought on board are not cutting it where it counts.
d. Does Holmgren want to surround himself with his own people? Of course he does, just like you, me or any of us would.
I see this going only one of three ways.
1. Holmgren sits where he is and lets Mangini have one more year, but Mangini has not proven he is the long term guy. A big decider on this will be if there is a lockout and how long it may last. The greater the likelyhood of a lockout, the better for Mangini, at least for one more year.
2. Holmgren lets Mangini go at the end of the current season and brings in a whole new set of coaches that are his boys. In that case it's 50/50 in my opinion that Chucky comes here. He may end up in Miami with the Dolphins. I would be fine with seeing Gruden, Zorn, Rhodes, et all come as soon as possible. I am fairly convinced that Holmgren has determined, or will determine, Mangini isn't the future for the Browns. Had he kept winning at the end of the year that might have changed.
3. Of course IF, IF, IF Holmgren REALLY wants to coach, he will and next year would be a great time to start. If that happens, Zorn, Rhodes or Fox and a few other "Holmgrenites" will be looking for homes in the Cleveland area. Personally, I'd be totally fine with that scenario too.
This I think you can count on:
--A winning team needs to come soon. Waiting 2-3 more years isn't viable from where Holmgren sits. I bet Holmgren's goals include playoff's by 2012.
--It's time for the west coast offense to get beefed up.
--It's time for a reality check on what real NFL defensive success means.
--The team needs to be built on a framework that includes consistently beating the Steelers and the Ravens. Hurry up, West Coast offense is a good way to go. The defense has to play well too.
--Winners win, they don't talk about improving. Improving AND losing never helped the gladiators. They learned to fight or die. Football-wise, that is what it takes in the NFL.
1) Money won't matter. Lerner will get whoever Holmgren wants.
2) Mangini won't be here in 2012. He isn't producing in the bottomline. He is not one of Holmgren's boys. He's been given a fair enough chance to turn heads.
3) Holmgren or one of his boys will be the head coach by 2012 and a totally new set of coaches will be in Cleveland.
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Gruden once told play boy he lost his virginity to the notre dame fight song..
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agree 1000%. as others have said "the grass is always greener ".
i know i can come off as being against gruden but i'm really not. i'm against the OMG we're not in the playoffs, fire the coach faction of our fan base. let the MFer sit down and stretch out, order a drink before you run him out of town already. geez imagine if these guys went into their new job and didn't know when to take out the fries when the bell rings......they'd be out whistling dixie before the sun hit their wives' ass down on the docks. imagine their 11 kids then.
in all seriousness... let the guy fulfill his contract and let's see what he can do next year....with the draft, fa and all. next year: no playoffs....send him packing.
Im not sure I follow alot of your arguments. No one here said play offs. I think we were thinking 7 or 8 wins.
You also talk a whole bunch about guys not giving enough time to turn things around. So since we have been back in the league, who have we run out of town??
Romeo, Butch Davis, Chris Palmer??? Really, your telling me if we stuck we any of these bafoons we would be a solid team now?
Its like this, what if you were driving in the wrong direction but have already turned around a couple of times.. Would you keep on driving hoping you made it to your destination? If you feel Mangini is the guy then you keep him, if you dont then you replace him.
Its not at black and white as that, but to stay the course for the purpose of stability is just a foolish argument.
Im not sure I follow alot of your arguments. No one here said play offs. I think we were thinking 7 or 8 wins.
You also talk a whole bunch about guys not giving enough time to turn things around. So since we have been back in the league, who have we run out of town??
Romeo, Butch Davis, Chris Palmer??? Really, your telling me if we stuck we any of these bafoons we would be a solid team now?
Its like this, what if you were driving in the wrong direction but have already turned around a couple of times.. Would you keep on driving hoping you made it to your destination? If you feel Mangini is the guy then you keep him, if you dont then you replace him.
Its not at black and white as that, but to stay the course for the purpose of stability is just a foolish argument.
the only one of the coaches you mentioned that are decent HEAD coaches is butch davis. he has give NC some football cred.
hey people above us with much more knowledge in this game gave the guy three years. yes we are going in the right direction. we need key personnel to get healthy and to add more in the draft of FA. you gotta give a guy a chance to see if his system works. i think it takes more than a year to evaluate.
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@king-ghoolie-lives said:
This is a very good and frequently asked comment. So let's be fair about it. Guys like you and I really have the Jones for the Super bowl. We all do. But here is the unfair part of using the SB as a ruler. The SB is big, bold, glitzy, flashy, sexy and for 30 teams every year, unattainable.So really, if you were to put any coach on stage and ask the question......... "is the guy to get us to a super bowl", most coaches that haven't been there, probably would not elicit a huge YES from the fans. No disrespect meant, but really how can we say any man is the guy who will get us there?
When you take a look at Mangini's press demeanor, he comes off as a polite, non-talkative guy. Not flashy, not boisterous. Judging the way we fans are conditioned by the media to think, maybe we can't see clearly.
I always thought Cowher was a great coach. If he never won a SB I wouldn't think any less of him. Marty never made it to a SB, but does that make him a bad coach?
I can flip this back on you. What would the Browns record be with Gruden coaching? Can you say without a doubt he would have done better than Mangini?
Of the coaches you like, who do you think would have taken THIS Browns team to the SB?
What is it that you feel Mangini hasn't done, that if he did, would have lead to more wins? Would this team be 10 - 4 with Gruden or Cowher? See, I don't think so.
Another flip, what do you think our record would have been IF we had a flashy, explosive running back, a break away WR and a badass pass rusher and bone crushing shut down DB?
According to the CB website we lost 8 football games by 7 points or less, and a bunch by 3 or 4.
Yet one more flip............ if Mangini had a flashy RB, potent WR, badass DB and one more pass rusher, do you really think we would not have put more than 7 points on the board in most of, if not ALL of those 8 games? DO you also think that the added talent on D would not have lowered our opponents scores?
From what I can see, the Mangini Browns were a few players away from reasonably being a 12 - 2 team this year.
Final flip - You think Gruden would have been this consistent and disciplined with the talent we have?
Can Mangini get us to the SB? I know this much, the guy has been consistently respectable and just a twat hair away from a bunch of wins.
Firing this kid will be a mistake, and a huge one at that. The shakey, flakey condition of our management has made Mangini's status here unsure, at best. He has performed under a lot of clouds and doubts AND more importantly to remember, today's players aren't the most noble as a group. Point being, if some of them perceived that Mangini wasn't going to be here long, they may have either loafed, or in the case of the players who don't like him, maybe not given everything.
Can he get us to the SB? He is a better coach and has more principles than Gruden. I don't believe Gruden would have held this team together.
Again, if Mangini gets fired, we will live to regret it. I think this guy has championship values and a champion's heart. That's the important thing to find.
Very good insight.. I must say I am not sure Gruden would have been the right coach this year. Im not sold on Gruden being a guy who can handle the rebuilding process. He is more the sexy, hoo ra ra coach.. I do beleive with the peices in place he is a very good coach and can maximize his talent.
When you ask what would mangini have done with a star WR, a pass rusher.. Im really not sure.. Thats what scares me on Mangini..
Let me ask you, what happens if mangini stays next year and we have another below 500 season? What would be your expectations with Mangini 3rd year?
a 3rd year under mangini in which we have 6 or less wins would really put us back. It wouldnt only be Mangini taking heat but now the Heckert and Holmgren.
Very good insight.. I must say I am not sure Gruden would have been the right coach this year. Im not sold on Gruden being a guy who can handle the rebuilding process. He is more the sexy, hoo ra ra coach.. I do believe with the peices in place he is a very good coach and can maximize his talent.
When you ask what would mangini have done with a star WR, a pass rusher.. Im really not sure.. Thats what scares me on Mangini..
Let me ask you, what happens if mangini stays next year and we have another below 500 season? What would be your expectations with Mangini 3rd year?
a 3rd year under mangini in which we have 6 or less wins would really put us back. It wouldnt only be Mangini taking heat but now the Heckert and Holmgren.
Mangini took over a train wreck of a team...and depending on what your after, it can take more than 3 yrs
I look at last year as a wash...Kokinis was never on board with the players Mangini wanted...so that draft was shit from the start
In any pro sport you can buy your way into the playoffs in two years or less...all it takes is money
What most of us want to see is sustainable success...all that takes is time
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Great analysis! I expect mangini to get one more year for a few reasons: 1) Another coach may not be able to come in here and produce a winning record next season which won't make holmgren look good, 2) If I were in Holmgren's position I would think mangini deserves one more year but a winning record will be expected next year with playoffs expected the following year if not next year 3) Mangini should get the chance to produce with a viable QB for an entire season which will be colt 4) Getting rid of mangini will not be a popular decision if we beat either the ravens or steelers, many fans feel we are going in the right direction.
We are only a few players away from being significantly better. Get some of those players and if the team doesn't have a winning record next year most people will be ready for another coach
I am in the keep mangini camp. We have greatly improved from last year. If we improve that much next year we should have a winning record
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Great analysis! I expect mangini to get one more year for a few reasons: 1) Another coach may not be able to come in here and produce a winning record next season which won't make holmgren look good, 2) If I were in Holmgren's position I would think mangini deserves one more year but a winning record will be expected next year with playoffs expected the following year if not next year 3) Mangini should get the chance to produce with a viable QB for an entire season which will be colt 4) Getting rid of mangini will not be a popular decision if we beat either the ravens or steelers, many fans feel we are going in the right direction.
We are only a few players away from being significantly better. Get some of those players and if the team doesn't have a winning record next year most people will be ready for another coach
I am in the keep mangini camp. We have greatly improved from last year. If we improve that much next year we should have a winning record
Great analysis! I expect mangini to get one more year for a few reasons: 1) Another coach may not be able to come in here and produce a winning record next season which won't make holmgren look good, 2) If I were in Holmgren's position I would think mangini deserves one more year but a winning record will be expected next year with playoffs expected the following year if not next year 3) Mangini should get the chance to produce with a viable QB for an entire season which will be colt 4) Getting rid of mangini will not be a popular decision if we beat either the ravens or steelers, many fans feel we are going in the right direction.
We are only a few players away from being significantly better. Get some of those players and if the team doesn't have a winning record next year most people will be ready for another coach
I am in the keep mangini camp. We have greatly improved from last year. If we improve that much next year we should have a winning record
Agree with every word
Yr # 1 "You learn how to work" = worked their asses off ,added character, and he flushed the shitter
Yr # 2 "You learn how to compete"= any arguments? we were in almost every game
Yr # 3 "You learn how to win" = with more talent added...no more excuses
Yr# 4 "You learn to win consistently" = if number 3 doesn't happen...he'll never make it this far
BTW excellent post longhorn
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