James Harrison
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It just really does humor me how you can hide behind stats as if they tells black and white a QB's worth. Just let me ask you a few hypothetical questions and just give your me honest, hopefully unbiased opinion
1. Do you think Ben reaches 3 super bowls without a defense that has consistently ranked top 5 in the league since he's been in?
2. Do you think Ben is as good of a QB without learning under a HOF and all time great coach when he entered the league?
3. Do you think Ben has as much success early in his career without a HOF running back and above average WR's?
I clearly stated I think he's a good QB. but manning came from NOTHING in indy and made that team great. Ben didn't have to make the steelers, the steelers made him. THAT'S exactly why Manning is and always will be known through history as a better QB
1. Absolutely
2. 100% he won under Tomlin so you're point is more than moot and to think that Cowher had this over whelming influence is a little crazy. They didn't even have that great of a relationship. Ken Anderson had more of an effect on Ben than Cowher.
3. Yes and why wouldn't he? Bettis wasn't in the prime of his career when they won the Super Bowl XL. Willie Parker was carrying most of that load and Bettis was a situational back. He had a pretty meager 110 carries that season. Peyton Manning had the team built around him and it still took him a good long while to grab his first ring and your comment on the Steelers making Ben is stupid because the Colts put the pieces around Manning to get the job done. The Steelers had pieces in place and added Ben after the fact. I guess Aaron Rodgers is pretty sorry then too right? He sat under Favre and inherited one hell of a defense. He sucks too aye? lol. Your logic is flawed and your argument is weak. And Zombo yes I said Manning is a choke artist. His team routinely had the best record in the league and they routinely made a early exit. Once because of the arm of one Ben Roethlisberger when the Steelers won XL and the colts expected us to come out running. No instead we came out passing and Ben put up a quick 14 and the colts never recovered. The Steelers WOULD NOT have made any of the 3 recent Super Bowls without Ben and you can take that to the damn bank.
Homotron said:
1. Absolutely
2. 100% he won under Tomlin so you're point is more than moot and to think that Cowher had this over whelming influence is a little crazy. They didn't even have that great of a relationship. Ken Anderson had more of an effect on Ben than Cowher.
3. Yes and why wouldn't he? Bettis wasn't in the prime of his career when they won the Super Bowl XL. Willie Parker was carrying most of that load and Bettis was a situational back. He had a pretty meager 110 carries that season. Peyton Manning had the team built around him and it still took him a good long while to grab his first ring and your comment on the Steelers making Ben is stupid because the Colts put the pieces around Manning to get the job done. The Steelers had pieces in place and added Ben after the fact. I guess Aaron Rodgers is pretty sorry then too right? He sat under Favre and inherited one hell of a defense. He sucks too aye? lol. Your logic is flawed and your argument is weak. And Zombo yes I said Manning is a choke artist. His team routinely had the best record in the league and they routinely made a early exit. Once because of the arm of one Ben Roethlisberger when the Steelers won XL and the colts expected us to come out running. No instead we came out passing and Ben put up a quick 14 and the colts never recovered. The Steelers WOULD NOT have made any of the 3 recent Super Bowls without Ben and you can take that to the damn bank.
welp, I can safely say I will never take anything you say as more than a biased, ignorant argument. I guarantee you that if you asked even 10 of steeler fans, 9 of them would at least admit those things to be true. However, I suppose living in your ignorant, biased steeler world is better. If you truly, 100% believe that going to that steelers team had NO affect on his prowess as a QB, God help you. You can live in that world haha. They may not have made it to those super bowls without him, but football more than anything is a TEAM sport.
I've literally said twice now Ben is a good NFL QB, and i'd even go far as to say he is underrated for what he's done. But come on, really? You truly can sit there with a straight face and say going to the steelers and that team had no impact on how he's preformed in the NFL? Give me a damn break man.
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Zombo said:
Ben is no Peyton Manning. There is no link in the world that could change my mind.
If Manning had had the Steelers defense the past decade he would probably own four or five rings.
Peyton is the greatest QB of our generation. Ben is just a guy on a good team. That rapes.
Zombo
Peyton Manning is a great QB but he's also one of the biggest choke artists in the league. Give Ben a solid offensive line and the Steelers have another two rings. His stats also show EXACTLY the opposite of what you claim but hey those stats must be wrong. lol
Homotron said:
Peyton Manning is a great QB but he's also one of the biggest choke artists in the league. Give Ben a solid offensive line and the Steelers have another two rings. His stats also show EXACTLY the opposite of what you claim but hey those stats must be wrong. lol
The Colts have won and been in Super Bowls because of Peyton Manning. To a large extent the Steelers have won and been in Super Bowls in spite of Ben Roethlisberger. He is a good QB, but I think the Steelers could have won that SB in 2005? with Spergeon Wynn at QB. Or at least with Charlie Batch. He was a bad QB on a team with a great defense.
In 2008 BR had more to do with winning. He was a good QB that year and in that SB game.
Without Manning the Colts would be a below .500 team possibly.
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mikeyP72 said:
I don't think anyone is saying BR is a BAD QB. But to pick him over Manning is asinine dude.
Trent Dilfer won a SB with the Ravens D. I'm pretty sure Tim Couch could have walked into Pittsburgh, just off the couch, and beaten Arizona.
First and foremost Ben is NOT Trent Difler. Secondly I don't see why it is, Ben isn't asked to pass the ball 55 times a game. You can look in this very thread and see the stats from this past season. Manning threw 679 times to Ben's 389 so completely different offenses. Yet Ben is tops in yards per attempt. His passer rating is top 10, he's mobile AND has a tremendous deep ball both in the pocket and on the run. Above all else he's a winner. Yes Manning has won a lot of games and thrown for a lot of yards. However he's also lost a lot of big games and that isn't something Ben has done because Ben is a winner. It's a "IT" factor and the mass media comments on it all the time. Check his 4th quarter comeback stats, look at the stats I posted in this very thread about his passer rating and other factors on his side of the field. It's my opinion but I can assure you I'm not the only one with it. I think most people in Pittsburgh would take Ben over Peyton because Peyton would have been murdered behind our o-line this past season. Instead we went to the Super Bowl BECAUSE of Ben. You don't have to go back very far to find Manning's angry tirade when his o-line broke down against the STeelers. He through his entire line under the bus. Either way both great QB's and I'm still taking Ben. Sue me.
Homotron said:
First and foremost Ben is NOT Trent Difler.
Actually, I think the comparison of BR and Trent Dilfer is a very apt comparison. I believe they are both good solid QBs who were able to manage their teams offense while their team's defenses led them to titles.
BTW, I don't think this is necessarily a knock on BR. More to the point is that I think Dilfer is probably vastly underrated as a QB.
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mikeyP72 said:
I didn't mean to sound like BR was Trent Dilfer. That guy is a JOKE.
All I meant was that a caretaker QB could likely come in and be successful with your team because of its depth and DEFENSE.
Tommy Maddux had "it" too with Cowher and LeBeau's system.
Another good example is Charlie Batch, another system guy (average talent level at best) who didn't do to bad when called upon.
I think it has a lot to do with the team and system. It's your opinion, I don't agree but it is what it is.
Both good QB's.
Tommy Maddox didn't have "it" because Tommy Maddox chocked. Ben up until this most recent Super Bowl hasn't chocked and I know that I was pretty damn confident at the end of that game when Ben had the ball with two minutes on the clock. Unfortunately our defense dropped the ball that game. We were spread far too thin, Troy wasn't 100% and their WR's proved too much. A lot of people say GB put up the blue print on how to over come the vaunted Steeler defense. I guess we'll find out soon enough. Ben with or without the Steeler defense is a top 5 QB in this league.
Homotron said:
Tommy Maddox didn't have "it" because Tommy Maddox chocked. Ben up until this most recent Super Bowl hasn't chocked and I know that I was pretty damn confident at the end of that game when Ben had the ball with two minutes on the clock. Unfortunately our defense dropped the ball that game. We were spread far too thin, Troy wasn't 100% and their WR's proved too much. A lot of people say GB put up the blue print on how to over come the vaunted Steeler defense. I guess we'll find out soon enough. Ben with or without the Steeler defense is a top 5 QB in this league.
Top 10 maybe. Not top 5. He is behind Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Rivers for sure. Where he falls behind them can be subject to debate.
You can't just go by statistics. If you did then Jeff Garcia would be considered one of the greatest QBs of all time.
BR definitely fits the Trent Dilfer/Brad Johnson mold.
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mikeyP72 said:
I didn't mean to sound like BR was Trent Dilfer. That guy is a JOKE.
All I meant was that a caretaker QB could likely come in and be successful with your team because of its depth and DEFENSE.
Tommy Maddux had "it" too with Cowher and LeBeau's system.
Another good example is Charlie Batch, another system guy (average talent level at best) who didn't do to bad when called upon.
I think it has a lot to do with the team and system. It's your opinion, I don't agree but it is what it is.
Both good QB's.
Tommy Maddox didn't have "it" because Tommy Maddox chocked. Ben up until this most recent Super Bowl hasn't chocked and I know that I was pretty damn confident at the end of that game when Ben had the ball with two minutes on the clock. Unfortunately our defense dropped the ball that game. We were spread far too thin, Troy wasn't 100% and their WR's proved too much. A lot of people say GB put up the blue print on how to over come the vaunted Steeler defense. I guess we'll find out soon enough. Ben with or without the Steeler defense is a top 5 QB in this league.
Homotron said:
Tommy Maddox didn't have "it" because Tommy Maddox chocked. Ben up until this most recent Super Bowl hasn't chocked and I know that I was pretty damn confident at the end of that game when Ben had the ball with two minutes on the clock. Unfortunately our defense dropped the ball that game. We were spread far too thin, Troy wasn't 100% and their WR's proved too much. A lot of people say GB put up the blue print on how to over come the vaunted Steeler defense. I guess we'll find out soon enough. Ben with or without the Steeler defense is a top 5 QB in this league.
Just curious..is Chocked a word?...did you mean like "Chock it up " or "Choke"...And you have the nerve to convict others of bad grammar and spelling. get a life and grow up Retard.
Nickers...."There are no old running QB's in the NFL "~Sam Rutigliano~ -
homochigger choked with "chocked' - he must be "crocked"...
new variation nickname: "homochocked"
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homotron: we all know you love your steelers and will defend them to the end of time. sometimes you make valid arguments/points to which on occasions i have agreed with your statements......
BUT dude!
this is like a bad horror movie where you scream at the screen telling the victim not to open that door or like watching manny pacquiao take the drunk loudmouth at the bar outside and beat the piss out of him in front of 40 people. someone should stop the fight. or even better, just stay down cool hand luke.
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Homotron said:
Tommy Maddox didn't have "it" because Tommy Maddox chocked. Ben up until this most recent Super Bowl hasn't chocked and I know that I was pretty damn confident at the end of that game when Ben had the ball with two minutes on the clock. Unfortunately our defense dropped the ball that game. We were spread far too thin, Troy wasn't 100% and their WR's proved too much. A lot of people say GB put up the blue print on how to over come the vaunted Steeler defense. I guess we'll find out soon enough. Ben with or without the Steeler defense is a top 5 QB in this league.
Just curious..is Chocked a word?...did you mean like "Chock it up " or "Choke"...And you have the nerve to convict others of bad grammar and spelling. get a life and grow up Retard.
Just curious..is Chocked a word?...did you mean like "Chock it up " or "Choke"...And you have the nerve to convict others of bad grammar and spelling. get a life and grow up Retard.
I obviously meant choked you stupid xxxx. Please scour my other posts for misspelled words. You'll be looking for a while.
As for the other people that have replied since I last have are concerned. I at no point downplayed the Steeler organizations involvement in Ben. However it's equally ignorant to claim that some of the main reasons he's good is because of Bill Cowher and the Steeler defense. It's simply not true. Sure the defense is a great asset but the defense isn't leading the team to victory in the 4th quarter. The defense isn't making the game saving plays to put us in the lead. Just as Cowher's involvement with Ben all things considered would likely be listed under "minimal". As I said before Ken Anderson had a much greater hand. Yes Ben is a product of the Steelers but to imply that he isn't his own man and ridiculously skilled is short sited and equally bias. I also think more Steeler fans than you think would take Ben. I know my primary Steeler board would because as I've said 10 times already Manning wouldn't have survived behind our offensive line. Period.
"OH but he knows the defenses before the defense does, he's Peyton Manning" lol
AKA SNATCH98 or Rorbotron. The boards glorious admins decided to get cute and change my name to "homotron" Classy group of people. (Lost a bet with Columbus king and got banned for a month) -
Please don't ever close this board or poor homo will have nothing to do with his "life".
Please don't ever close this board or poor homo will have nothing to do with his "life".
He could always get a gig on "TEEN Beat' mag
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Just curious..is Chocked a word?...did you mean like "Chock it up " or "Choke"...And you have the nerve to convict others of bad grammar and spelling. get a life and grow up Retard.
I obviously meant choked you stupid xxxx. Please scour my other posts for misspelled words. You'll be looking for a while.
As for the other people that have replied since I last have are concerned. I at no point downplayed the Steeler organizations involvement in Ben. However it's equally ignorant to claim that some of the main reasons he's good is because of Bill Cowher and the Steeler defense. It's simply not true. Sure the defense is a great asset but the defense isn't leading the team to victory in the 4th quarter. The defense isn't making the game saving plays to put us in the lead. Just as Cowher's involvement with Ben all things considered would likely be listed under "minimal". As I said before Ken Anderson had a much greater hand. Yes Ben is a product of the Steelers but to imply that he isn't his own man and ridiculously skilled is short sited and equally bias. I also think more Steeler fans than you think would take Ben. I know my primary Steeler board would because as I've said 10 times already Manning wouldn't have survived behind our offensive line. Period.
"OH but he knows the defenses before the defense does, he's Peyton Manning" lol
Homotron said:
I obviously meant choked you stupid xxxx. Please scour my other posts for misspelled words. You'll be looking for a while.
As for the other people that have replied since I last have are concerned. I at no point downplayed the Steeler organizations involvement in Ben. However it's equally ignorant to claim that some of the main reasons he's good is because of Bill Cowher and the Steeler defense. It's simply not true. Sure the defense is a great asset but the defense isn't leading the team to victory in the 4th quarter. The defense isn't making the game saving plays to put us in the lead. Just as Cowher's involvement with Ben all things considered would likely be listed under "minimal". As I said before Ken Anderson had a much greater hand. Yes Ben is a product of the Steelers but to imply that he isn't his own man and ridiculously skilled is short sited and equally bias. I also think more Steeler fans than you think would take Ben. I know my primary Steeler board would because as I've said 10 times already Manning wouldn't have survived behind our offensive line. Period.
"OH but he knows the defenses before the defense does, he's Peyton Manning" lol
Of course,Most Stooler fans are blinded by Piss and black lenses like you...
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