Joe Thomas
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Can anyone tell me how it will effect the salary cap every year. How much will be coming off the cap for his deal?
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Can anyone tell me how it will effect the salary cap every year. How much will be coming off the cap for his deal?
Can anyone tell me how it will effect the salary cap every year. How much will be coming off the cap for his deal?
Most NFL contracts are back loaded so we probably won't see any devastating effects for a couple years to come.
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I'm surprised you guys are so excited about locking up Joe Thomas for $84M. That's not a bargain in my book. I understand you wanting to lock up a star player (and who is arguably the best at his position) but to me the cost is so high. He's being paid what a top QB currently makes. I have very mixed feelings about recent signings of my team, the Steelers, have made as well. Sure Pittsurgh locked up two outstanding linebackers (Woodley/Timmons) but they did so at such a premium at roughly $10M and $8M/yr.
I suppose my biggest concern with these type of contracts is that they are all back-loaded. They get the numbers down now but in 3-4 years your cap ballons. Then invariably you have to cut some star players to keep the core of your team intact. In terms of Mr. Thomas, to me it just makes no sense to pay him that kind of money unless you have a top QB for him to protect or the best overall offensive line in football.
Endymion said:
I'm surprised you guys are so excited about locking up Joe Thomas for $84M. That's not a bargain in my book. I understand you wanting to lock up a star player (and who is arguably the best at his position) but to me the cost is so high. He's being paid what a top QB currently makes. I have very mixed feelings about recent signings of my team, the Steelers, have made as well. Sure Pittsurgh locked up two outstanding linebackers (Woodley/Timmons) but they did so at such a premium at roughly $10M and $8M/yr.
I suppose my biggest concern with these type of contracts is that they are all back-loaded. They get the numbers down now but in 3-4 years your cap ballons. Then invariably you have to cut some star players to keep the core of your team intact. In terms of Mr. Thomas, to me it just makes no sense to pay him that kind of money unless you have a top QB for him to protect or the best overall offensive line in football.
What makes you think the Browns don't have a top QB to protect? Sometimes QBs and RBs become "top" because of the strength of their offensive lines. Bernie Kosar was a top QB when he had Cody Risien protecting him, but when Risien retired his replacement was like a paper mache doll and Bernie ended up on his ass quicker than you could say "spit". He was an outstanding QB, but no QB can be outstanding from his backside.
By the way....I have been reading those books you reccomended by Dan Simmons. Hyperion, The Fall of Hyperion, and just last night I finished Endymion and will probably be starting the Rise of Endymion tonight. I quite like them. Thanks for the heads up. In the words of Tim Tebow "ppreciate it".
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Endymion said:
I'm surprised you guys are so excited about locking up Joe Thomas for $84M. That's not a bargain in my book. I understand you wanting to lock up a star player (and who is arguably the best at his position) but to me the cost is so high. He's being paid what a top QB currently makes. I have very mixed feelings about recent signings of my team, the Steelers, have made as well. Sure Pittsurgh locked up two outstanding linebackers (Woodley/Timmons) but they did so at such a premium at roughly $10M and $8M/yr.
I suppose my biggest concern with these type of contracts is that they are all back-loaded. They get the numbers down now but in 3-4 years your cap ballons. Then invariably you have to cut some star players to keep the core of your team intact. In terms of Mr. Thomas, to me it just makes no sense to pay him that kind of money unless you have a top QB for him to protect or the best overall offensive line in football.
What makes you think the Browns don't have a top QB to protect? Sometimes QBs and RBs become "top" because of the strength of their offensive lines. Bernie Kosar was a top QB when he had Cody Risien protecting him, but when Risien retired his replacement was like a paper mache doll and Bernie ended up on his ass quicker than you could say "spit". He was an outstanding QB, but no QB can be outstanding from his backside.
By the way....I have been reading those books you reccomended by Dan Simmons. Hyperion, The Fall of Hyperion, and just last night I finished Endymion and will probably be starting the Rise of Endymion tonight. I quite like them. Thanks for the heads up. In the words of Tim Tebow "ppreciate it".
What makes you think the Browns don't have a top QB to protect? Sometimes QBs and RBs become "top" because of the strength of their offensive lines. Bernie Kosar was a top QB when he had Cody Risien protecting him, but when Risien retired his replacement was like a paper mache doll and Bernie ended up on his ass quicker than you could say "spit". He was an outstanding QB, but no QB can be outstanding from his backside.
While Bernie Kosar is legendary in Cleveland, he's not what I would've called a top QB or an elite QB. I could argue that Ben fits the "elite QB" just on the basis of 3 super bowl appearances, but he doesn't put up the stats like Brees, Manning, Brady or Rogers. Cowher pretty much built the Steelers up with the top notch offensive line strategy (as Schottenhiemer did) and put in a serviceable QB (i.e. not Ryan Leaf) to center the team and the results with less than "elite" QBs (O'Donnell, Stewart, Maddox) were favorable. The Steelers did not overcommit OL salaries in that era either, and we lost a number of top lineman due to injury over the years, which didn't kill our ability to recover from the cap hit.
You are investing star money in an offensive line player. That hampers you ability to sign back-ups and other star players. While the offensive line is a key to any successful football team (though the Steelers a bit of an exception to that rule right now), I'm not sure of the wisdom of committing $12M per year to Mr. Thomas. I suppose it would take alot more research than I have time to do, to analyze what else you could've done with that money. My gut tells me you could've bought alot of serious OL talent for that chunk of change in the coming years.
The veterans wanted the owners to invest in them moreso than the rookies, and it looks like it is paying off for them. I'm concerned that the owners are investing too much money in the veterans and driving the market scales out of proportion to value. The Browns have an abundance of cap room now, but in 3-4 years that investment in Joe may actually cause him to get released due to injury/cap drag. I want to see Troy stay a Steeler, but heavy investments in our linebackers and his injury streaks may have made Troy a 2012 cap casualty.
As for Colt McCoy, based on what I've seen, he hasn't impressed me. I'm not seeing "elite QB" talk in his future. I'm not totally writing him off as he is still young, he has shown some flashes of managing the offense well, but then again so did Kelly Holcomb. I think McCoys potential does not exceed that of Neil O'Donnells. Then again that is just my opinion.
Good to hear you are enjoying the Hyperion series.
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I'll pay Troy today to be a Cleveland Brown tomorrow same with James Harrison no lie i would pay them their market worth without a second thought with the rookies and vets we have now our defense would become outstanding.
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I'll pay Troy today to be a Cleveland Brown tomorrow same with James Harrison no lie i would pay them their market worth without a second thought with the rookies and vets we have now our defense would become outstanding.
I'll pay Troy today to be a Cleveland Brown tomorrow same with James Harrison no lie i would pay them their market worth without a second thought with the rookies and vets we have now our defense would become outstanding.
Yeah- for a year or two-and the we're in cap hell, and those guys go downhill faster than a bobsled. Not listening to the smart Steeler fan I see. The Steelers let guys like Harrison and Poly-moo-moo walk if they're getting old think they're overpaid, and bring in YOUNG talent to replace them. It's how they stay on top year after year.
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Hoorta,
Have u even read a single post I have done??? First I was totally against taylor mays, look it up. U can read I assume.
2nd show me where I wanted us to sign a washed up vet?? I love how the brain washed people in here use to the same standard response.
Hoorta,
Have u even read a single post I have done??? First I was totally against taylor mays, look it up. U can read I assume.
2nd show me where I wanted us to sign a washed up vet?? I love how the brain washed people in here use to the same standard response.
Yeah, me and Couch probably read everything you post, and most of it isn't what any intelligent GM would do. It's you that isn't listening to reason. Now you're flopping around like a fish out of water after every one of your arguments has been systematically shot down. Misquoted? Don't think so. I'm not going to waste my time going back through your posts again, just to prove AGAIN the top FAs weren't coming here, the second tier young vets that may have helped would have had to be seriously overpaid, and the rest of the stuff was third tier garbage that wouldn't' have helped.
And you've yet to explain how spending every every cent of cap dollars this year would have somehow magically turned the Browns into a Super Bowl contender, at the expense of cap hell down the road. We're not talking "improved", "playoff contender" we're talking "legitimate SB threat".
Get it though your head H&H are planning for long term success, not a one year flash in the pan.
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Hoorta,
Have u even read a single post I have done??? First I was totally against taylor mays, look it up. U can read I assume.
2nd show me where I wanted us to sign a washed up vet?? I love how the brain washed people in here use to the same standard response.
Yeah, me and Couch probably read everything you post, and most of it isn't what any intelligent GM would do. It's you that isn't listening to reason. Now you're flopping around like a fish out of water after every one of your arguments has been systematically shot down. Misquoted? Don't think so. I'm not going to waste my time going back through your posts again, just to prove AGAIN the top FAs weren't coming here, the second tier young vets that may have helped would have had to be seriously overpaid, and the rest of the stuff was third tier garbage that wouldn't' have helped.
And you've yet to explain how spending every every cent of cap dollars this year would have somehow magically turned the Browns into a Super Bowl contender, at the expense of cap hell down the road. We're not talking "improved", "playoff contender" we're talking "legitimate SB threat".
Get it though your head H&H are planning for long term success, not a one year flash in the pan.
Yeah, me and Couch probably read everything you post, and most of it isn't what any intelligent GM would do. It's you that isn't listening to reason. Now you're flopping around like a fish out of water after every one of your arguments has been systematically shot down. Misquoted? Don't think so. I'm not going to waste my time going back through your posts again, just to prove AGAIN the top FAs weren't coming here, the second tier young vets that may have helped would have had to be seriously overpaid, and the rest of the stuff was third tier garbage that wouldn't' have helped.
And you've yet to explain how spending every every cent of cap dollars this year would have somehow magically turned the Browns into a Super Bowl contender, at the expense of cap hell down the road. We're not talking "improved", "playoff contender" we're talking "legitimate SB threat".
Get it though your head H&H are planning for long term success, not a one year flash in the pan.
Ok let me tell you how spending every cent matters. I posted an article of the 5 bottom teams in regards to spending rams, bills, cheifs, bengals and bucs this was an article i beleive written in 2010. Funny cause they said all these teams consistantly lose.
So yes spend every dollar. And if you planning on the future, then spend every freaking cent to resign the players we have now, and use there signing bonus towards this years cap number.
Regardless, there is no reason we should not spend every cent!!
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Yeah, me and Couch probably read everything you post, and most of it isn't what any intelligent GM would do. It's you that isn't listening to reason. Now you're flopping around like a fish out of water after every one of your arguments has been systematically shot down. Misquoted? Don't think so. I'm not going to waste my time going back through your posts again, just to prove AGAIN the top FAs weren't coming here, the second tier young vets that may have helped would have had to be seriously overpaid, and the rest of the stuff was third tier garbage that wouldn't' have helped.
And you've yet to explain how spending every every cent of cap dollars this year would have somehow magically turned the Browns into a Super Bowl contender, at the expense of cap hell down the road. We're not talking "improved", "playoff contender" we're talking "legitimate SB threat".
Get it though your head H&H are planning for long term success, not a one year flash in the pan.
Ok let me tell you how spending every cent matters. I posted an article of the 5 bottom teams in regards to spending rams, bills, cheifs, bengals and bucs this was an article i beleive written in 2010. Funny cause they said all these teams consistantly lose.
So yes spend every dollar. And if you planning on the future, then spend every freaking cent to resign the players we have now, and use there signing bonus towards this years cap number.
Regardless, there is no reason we should not spend every cent!!
Ok let me tell you how spending every cent matters. I posted an article of the 5 bottom teams in regards to spending rams, bills, cheifs, bengals and bucs this was an article i beleive written in 2010. Funny cause they said all these teams consistantly lose.
So yes spend every dollar. And if you planning on the future, then spend every freaking cent to resign the players we have now, and use there signing bonus towards this years cap number.
Regardless, there is no reason we should not spend every cent!!
It's not that they consistently lose because of a lack of spending so much as it's that top FA's don't want to go to those places because of their current lack of success.
Know what I'm sayin, know what I'm sayin?
It's a cycle, and the only way to break out of that cycle is to draft good talent and bring it along in house, then when you've proven to be a legitimate contender, you can go out of pocket to bring in those top players that will in hopes push the team over the top.
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What makes you think the Browns don't have a top QB to protect? Sometimes QBs and RBs become "top" because of the strength of their offensive lines. Bernie Kosar was a top QB when he had Cody Risien protecting him, but when Risien retired his replacement was like a paper mache doll and Bernie ended up on his ass quicker than you could say "spit". He was an outstanding QB, but no QB can be outstanding from his backside.
While Bernie Kosar is legendary in Cleveland, he's not what I would've called a top QB or an elite QB. I could argue that Ben fits the "elite QB" just on the basis of 3 super bowl appearances, but he doesn't put up the stats like Brees, Manning, Brady or Rogers. Cowher pretty much built the Steelers up with the top notch offensive line strategy (as Schottenhiemer did) and put in a serviceable QB (i.e. not Ryan Leaf) to center the team and the results with less than "elite" QBs (O'Donnell, Stewart, Maddox) were favorable. The Steelers did not overcommit OL salaries in that era either, and we lost a number of top lineman due to injury over the years, which didn't kill our ability to recover from the cap hit.
You are investing star money in an offensive line player. That hampers you ability to sign back-ups and other star players. While the offensive line is a key to any successful football team (though the Steelers a bit of an exception to that rule right now), I'm not sure of the wisdom of committing $12M per year to Mr. Thomas. I suppose it would take alot more research than I have time to do, to analyze what else you could've done with that money. My gut tells me you could've bought alot of serious OL talent for that chunk of change in the coming years.
The veterans wanted the owners to invest in them moreso than the rookies, and it looks like it is paying off for them. I'm concerned that the owners are investing too much money in the veterans and driving the market scales out of proportion to value. The Browns have an abundance of cap room now, but in 3-4 years that investment in Joe may actually cause him to get released due to injury/cap drag. I want to see Troy stay a Steeler, but heavy investments in our linebackers and his injury streaks may have made Troy a 2012 cap casualty.
As for Colt McCoy, based on what I've seen, he hasn't impressed me. I'm not seeing "elite QB" talk in his future. I'm not totally writing him off as he is still young, he has shown some flashes of managing the offense well, but then again so did Kelly Holcomb. I think McCoys potential does not exceed that of Neil O'Donnells. Then again that is just my opinion.
Good to hear you are enjoying the Hyperion series.
Endymion said:
While Bernie Kosar is legendary in Cleveland, he's not what I would've called a top QB or an elite QB.
Oh, yea, he was at the time, for a while before injuries got to him.
I could argue that Ben fits the "elite QB" just on the basis of 3 super bowl appearances, but he doesn't put up the stats like Brees, Manning, Brady or Rogers.
If Bernie had a defense like BR does, he would have won 4-5 SBs, or at least 3.
Cowher pretty much built the Steelers up with the top notch offensive line strategy (as Schottenhiemer did)
(Schottenheimer never had a DC as good as LeBeau. Not many teams in history have)
and put in a serviceable QB (i.e. not Ryan Leaf) to center the team and the results with less than "elite" QBs (O'Donnell, Stewart, Maddox) were favorable. The Steelers did not overcommit OL salaries in that era either, and we lost a number of top lineman due to injury over the years, which didn't kill our ability to recover from the cap hit.
You are investing star money in an offensive line player. That hampers you ability to sign back-ups and other star players. While the offensive line is a key to any successful football team (though the Steelers a bit of an exception to that rule right now), I'm not sure of the wisdom of committing $12M per year to Mr. Thomas. I suppose it would take alot more research than I have time to do, to analyze what else you could've done with that money. My gut tells me you could've bought alot of serious OL talent for that chunk of change in the coming years.
I guess I am not just into second guessing what this front office feels is important to this team. Joe Thomas is on his way to a Hall of Fame type career. Perhaps they do see the value of paying a premium for that type of talent.
The veterans wanted the owners to invest in them moreso than the rookies, and it looks like it is paying off for them. I'm concerned that the owners are investing too much money in the veterans and driving the market scales out of proportion to value. The Browns have an abundance of cap room now, but in 3-4 years that investment in Joe may actually cause him to get released due to injury/cap drag. I want to see Troy stay a Steeler, but heavy investments in our linebackers and his injury streaks may have made Troy a 2012 cap casualty.
As for Colt McCoy, based on what I've seen, he hasn't impressed me. I'm not seeing "elite QB" talk in his future. I'm not totally writing him off as he is still young, he has shown some flashes of managing the offense well, but then again so did Kelly Holcomb. I think McCoys potential does not exceed that of Neil O'Donnells. Then again that is just my opinion.
I don't know, if we are talking about opinions, right now I see Colt McCoy as possibly a young Joe Montana!!! Who's to say which of us is right. The future I guess.
Good to hear you are enjoying the Hyperion series.
I am. Thanks again.
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Tim couch pulls,
I hear what your saying. But can you see what I'm saying? My point is ok so if you don't want to sign a free agent and want to build around the draft. You should at least spend the money we are under the cap extending current players. What good does it do to leave money on the books? Yes I thought and still believe we should have been more active in free agency.
but let's not be held in the same standards and bills, bucs cheifs and bengals. Can we at least agree on that?
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Exceptional signing. If a cornerstone player wants to make a career in one place, particular not a glitzy one, all the more reason to make it happen.
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Tim couch pulls,
I hear what your saying. But can you see what I'm saying? My point is ok so if you don't want to sign a free agent and want to build around the draft. You should at least spend the money we are under the cap extending current players. What good does it do to leave money on the books? Yes I thought and still believe we should have been more active in free agency.
but let's not be held in the same standards and bills, bucs cheifs and bengals. Can we at least agree on that?
Tim couch pulls,
I hear what your saying. But can you see what I'm saying? My point is ok so if you don't want to sign a free agent and want to build around the draft. You should at least spend the money we are under the cap extending current players. What good does it do to leave money on the books? Yes I thought and still believe we should have been more active in free agency.
but let's not be held in the same standards and bills, bucs cheifs and bengals. Can we at least agree on that?
You only bring in FAs if you don't overpay for them, and they're not one year band-aids- at least in the Browns current situation. Can you agree on that?
Here's the standards. The Bucs are owned by the Glazers- Cheap asses. The Bills are owned by Ralph Wilson who at 92 has no further business running a football team, he's 10 years older than Al Davis who I think looks like he's been legally dead for several years. The Bills have great fans, but the stadium is antiquated, and Buffalo is a marginal area for NFL football- ditto that for Jacksonville. If any team is going to move to LA- take those two as the frontrunners. The Chiefs are under new management with Scott Pioli running the show- and following the same path he took in New England. This brings us to the BUNGLES. I happen to know a thing or two about this s**t franchise, as I live way too close to Bungleland. Mike Brown is unquestionably the cheapest ass dumbest owner in the NFL, bar none- even outpacing the senile aforementioned Al Davis. 1) They're the only cold weather team without a covered indoor practice facility. 2) His whole front office is a bunch of inbred relatives of questionable football intelligence. 3) He could have gotten value for Carson Palmer, but just cut off his nose to spite his face. As Mike Golic said- "you expect Carson to honor his contract, when you cut players all the time before their contract ends?"
Now, as to your argument, why extend current players before they've truly earned it? Should we have thrown the bank at Hillis after ONE good season? McCoy looked damn good in a couple of games- but then, and only then, after another great year do you start paying him top money. You'd be crying a river if the the Browns had capped out this year, McCoy and Hillis have monster seasons and you saw the Browns cutting decent talent to give Hilis top RB money and in the process having to let other guys walk. OTOH, that's squarely biting the Colts in the ass this year- having to pay Peyton Manning way more than he's worth at this point in his career, at the expense of keeping the up and coming talent. The Steelers aren't as sentimental.
Additionally, Joe Thomas has proved he's in the Anthony Munoz category at LT, and the Browns had the cap room to pay him accordingly. So Mr Capologist. Browns are over the cap 2011, and 2012, so what happens to Joe? What? You say he walks, (he'd never leave a garden spot like Cleveland for more money- not) and the Browns are up shit creek at LT? Well, go to the head of the class. H&H will gladly pay anyone else the $$$ if they prove they've earned it.
You ever hear of the "Window of Opportunity?" Well the Browns aren't there yet, and they have the Cap room to be a player when they think that they are. FWIW, I think that window will open for the Browns starting in 2012. The Bengals, Bills, and Raiders will never get there- at least with their current management team in place. The Eagles and Jets think they're "there"- so like in poker, it was "all in" this year. The Patriots think the window is closing- Brady isn't getting any younger- so with a solid core, they took the risk on bringing in a couple of aging (maybe over the hill) stars for one last hurrah before the descent into the AFC East basement in the next couple of years. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the Colts window has closed. So there you have my take on the situation.
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