Real Question
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You know that Huntsman is a Mormon, too, right?
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You know that Huntsman is a Mormon, too, right?
You know that Huntsman is a Mormon, too, right?
nope, I never bothered to dig deeper on him once I realized he had zero shot.... but that would have crossed him off my list. I know its not PC to have a anti Mormon stance but I do.
I have done or attempted to do some business in Utah.... and have met some really nice people who practice that faith. It just gives me all kinds of problems.
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Sev I gotta admit that surprised me.
Would you feel that way about Jews, Muslims or Catholics?
Anyway many years ago Mormon missionaries stopped by and we actually had an ongoing dialogue. I even went to a LDS service. They all seemed like nice consevative folks without the fire and brimstone you might find elsewhere.
That's one realon I like Romney.
Anyway I'm not religious but I guess the jump from virgin birth to water into wine to healing the sick to the ressurection and then to showing up among the Indians isn't that much of a stretch.
And Heck, sure I figure Newt has a huge ego and never tires of expounding on whatever thoughts he has. So that makes for a big backlog of state3ments for the left to sift through.
But I don't suppose anyone with aspiratyions of power on the world stage is all that selfless.
I also assume that any politician will have members of the team go renegade.
Turncoats get a lot of attention and we all love attention.
Maybe that love of attention is one reason I like Newt.
But he'd be the one I'd pick if it were up to me.
If I was speaking for the Republican party I'd pick Mitt, if getting rid of Obama is the goal.
Actually I can live with Obama and a Republican house and senate.
Of course that'd be rough assumoing Obama wins by bringing out the liberal vote.
We'll see.
WSS
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Wow, heck that was quite insightful on Romney.
I agree with your rationalization.... however I will be totally honest.... I could never vote for a Mormon. There is something inherently wrong with people who tune out their logic to
agree with Joseph Smith and his rewriting of North American History. I could not vote for someone who has no position and is a literal talking head to what ever the wind blows at that moment.
Huntsmen would get a serious look from me as even Ron Paul (not as serious but a good look) neither will get the opportunity. Romney will win and I think your right they will go after the Florida Hispanic vote with Rubio as VP.
Obama will win again in a close race but he will win again because frankly he is better than anything the opposition has. I think we will see real growth in his second term now that stabilization has happened.
Wow, heck that was quite insightful on Romney.
I agree with your rationalization.... however I will be totally honest.... I could never vote for a Mormon. There is something inherently wrong with people who tune out their logic to
agree with Joseph Smith and his rewriting of North American History. I could not vote for someone who has no position and is a literal talking head to what ever the wind blows at that moment.
And yet you're a Christian. How very ironic. I want to say that I really appreciate your honesty here, but damn is it ironic.
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Wow, heck that was quite insightful on Romney.
I agree with your rationalization.... however I will be totally honest.... I could never vote for a Mormon. There is something inherently wrong with people who tune out their logic to
agree with Joseph Smith and his rewriting of North American History. I could not vote for someone who has no position and is a literal talking head to what ever the wind blows at that moment.
And yet you're a Christian. How very ironic. I want to say that I really appreciate your honesty here, but damn is it ironic.
And yet you're a Christian. How very ironic. I want to say that I really appreciate your honesty here, but damn is it ironic.
I didn't think Sev was a Chrisatian.
Am I wrong Sev?
WSS
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@vaportrail said:
Oh damn. I must still be drunk. I thought I was quoting you, Steve. Okay, so that begs the question, sev, are you religious?
FWIW I'm not but I have no problem with those that are.
WSS
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Well I apologize for the misunderstanding. So, I'm assuming that sev is okay voting for a Protestant or a Catholic, yet he won't vote for a Mormon because he thinks Mormonism is silly? I find that troubling. You could easily say the same about EVERY SINGLE religion.
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Vapor,
No issues and Steve is correct I do not follow any major/minor religion, however you could classify science as a religion to some degree.
I understand your comment about the mainstream subsets of Christianity, I have made the mental decision that most people in the U.S. claim
one of the denominations or even Judaism. This is totally subjective and I dont expect people to agree, I happen to classify Mormonism as the same as say
Scientology. I would not vote for a Scientologist either... they are both to "cultish" and both are founded within the last 100 or so years by people we can get
decent insight on.
I agree this is subjective, but this is a personal choice on data about "founding" personalities versus thousands of years of individuals we dont have reliable or consistent data on.
I know some very nice people that are Mormon, but I also know some really nice people with felony records for some pretty heinous things. Its a personal thing but both of those would disqualify them for consideration based on subjective logic i apply to who should hold the most powerful position in the world
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I agree this is subjective, but this is a personal choice on data about "founding" personalities versus thousands of years of individuals we dont have reliable or consistent data on.
So you'd rather put your trust into someone who has faith in something that there is hardly any reliable or consistent data on? The only difference between mainstream Christianity and Mormonism is the length of time that a large group has followed them. Jesus' movement was originally viewed as a Messianic cult, too.
So if a candidate believes in something that's more widely accepted, but has the exact amount of concrete evidence for their beliefs as one of these "lesser" faiths (none), you exempt them from that scrutiny?
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I don't have a problem with people who vote or don't vote for someone based on their religious beliefs. Mostly because everyone does it, whether they acknowledge it or not. For instance, I almost certainly wouldn't vote for someone who has been taken in by Scientology. To me, it says something about their intellectual makeup and their gullibility. Some people view Mormonism in that same way. I don't happen to, but I can certainly see why people do. Mormonism requires people to believe in some things are not only utterly fantastical and surely improbable, but also things that are demonstrably false.
Joseph Smith was a con man. That seem 100% clear to me. The fact that people like Mitt Romney can't see that, or chooses not to see that, is a tad worrisome, yes. For me, it's not a disqualifier. But I can see why it would be for some people. And if someone like Sev wants to come to that conclusion, I think that's fine. As long as he doesn't believe in a religious test for office, he can assemble his voting priorities in whichever way he pleases.
And Vapor, I don't agree that Christianity and Mormonism are the same things. Do both require a belief in miraculous things that you or I believe never happened? Sure. But we know there was a Jesus Christ. We have a real good idea of what he preached about, how he died, etc. Even if you strip away the belief that he was divine, as Jefferson and many others have done, you're still left with some of the most sublime moral philosophies in human history, on which 2000 years of religious tradition have been based.
Mormonism is just something a guy with a wild imagination made up out of whole cloth. None of the people or places in the Book of Mormon have ever been shown to have existed. Some of the central tenets of the book have been proven to be false - or some might say fraudulent. It might as well be called "Harry Potter and the Golden Plates."
That's different.
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And Steve, I hope you were watching This Week this morning. People from all over the spectrum were weighing in on what a fraud Newt is.
I particularly liked George Will's line about Gingrich's "absurd rhetorical grandiosity" before noting "he's not a historian" (he's really not - he couldn't even get tenure at an obscure college in Georgia) and then this: “It is an amazingly efficient candidacy in that in embodies everything disagreeable about modern Washington."
Even better was Krugman's line that Newt is "a stupid person’s idea of what a smart person sounds like."
I think they're both right. But have fun with Newt, the man who thinks describing each of his ideas as "profound" or "historic" makes them so. Honestly, have you even looked at his new Contract For America? For all his talk about "fundamental change" it's just a list of dusted off old ideas, nonsense, and useless slogans. There's absolutely nothing new in it. It could have come from Sarah Palin's Facebook page. And he thinks it's all groundbreaking stuff.
He's a truly strange man.
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I don't have a problem with people who vote or don't vote for someone based on their religious beliefs. Mostly because everyone does it, whether they acknowledge it or not. For instance, I almost certainly wouldn't vote for someone who has been taken in by Scientology. To me, it says something about their intellectual makeup and their gullibility. Some people view Mormonism in that same way. I don't happen to, but I can certainly see why people do. Mormonism requires people to believe in some things are not only utterly fantastical and surely improbable, but also things that are demonstrably false.
Joseph Smith was a con man. That seem 100% clear to me. The fact that people like Mitt Romney can't see that, or chooses not to see that, is a tad worrisome, yes. For me, it's not a disqualifier. But I can see why it would be for some people. And if someone like Sev wants to come to that conclusion, I think that's fine. As long as he doesn't believe in a religious test for office, he can assemble his voting priorities in whichever way he pleases.
And Vapor, I don't agree that Christianity and Mormonism are the same things. Do both require a belief in miraculous things that you or I believe never happened? Sure. But we know there was a Jesus Christ. We have a real good idea of what he preached about, how he died, etc. Even if you strip away the belief that he was divine, as Jefferson and many others have done, you're still left with some of the most sublime moral philosophies in human history, on which 2000 years of religious tradition have been based.
Mormonism is just something a guy with a wild imagination made up out of whole cloth. None of the people or places in the Book of Mormon have ever been shown to have existed. Some of the central tenets of the book have been proven to be false - or some might say fraudulent. It might as well be called "Harry Potter and the Golden Plates."
That's different.
And Vapor, I don't agree that Christianity and Mormonism are the same things. Do both require a belief in miraculous things that you or I believe never happened? Sure. But we know there was a Jesus Christ. We have a real good idea of what he preached about, how he died, etc. Even if you strip away the belief that he was divine, as Jefferson and many others have done, you're still left with some of the most sublime moral philosophies in human history, on which 2000 years of religious tradition have been based.
We don't necessarily know that there was a Jesus Christ, and we absolutely don't have a "real good idea" of what he preached about. The succession of various books which were written with different agendas obfuscates what we really can know about him. From my studies, I have come to the conclusion that if he existed, he never claimed to be divine, and Jesus Christ is more likely a compilation of people than a single person. Furthermore, there are no contemporary documents of his life nor his death. Everything we know about him is from things that were written, at best, a decade after his life ended.
Mormonism is just something a guy with a wild imagination made up out of whole cloth. None of the people or places in the Book of Mormon have ever been shown to have existed. Some of the central tenets of the book have been proven to be false - or some might say fraudulent. It might as well be called "Harry Potter and the Golden Plates."
I could go through the NT and point out a whole bunch of tenets from it that are "proven" to be false as well. For example, "Faith can move mountains." No, actually it can't, Jesus was thinking of plate tectonic theory.
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Heck,
I absolutely do not believe in a religious test to run for office, I am glad in theory that Mitt, Huntsmen and others can run for office legally and IF they get enough popular support can get elected.
That is democracy and a proper application of the separation of church and state..... I am just speaking for myself that I have a profound logical problem electing anyone who buys into concepts so
illogical to me as the most powerful person in the world. It immediately makes me question their critical thinking which I think is the most profound and important skill necessary for being President.
I also happen to think that Mormon's operate to similar to Scientology in terms of a very active/controlling organization which I am not comfortable with. The Mormons PR/money intervention in California
over gay marriage was a demonstration of how far they are willing to go to push their beliefs into law which is a major problem for me.
I dont care what other people believe in, I do not want them to push their beliefs that may stem from their religions on me by law and the Mormons are that type of organization. I am not just singling them out....
I equally have a high disdain for evangelicals and would not vote for someone who I think is influenced by them either.
Its just a personal preference, I am sure most who have read my posts know I do not like any of the mainstream religious establishments however there are a few I really dont like.
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While much of what you say about the Bible is true, the chronology of it and what not, that's hardly proof that Jesus didn't exist. It suggests embellishment over time, not complete fiction. But historians are pretty certain that Christ exists. The Romans kept their own lists, after all.
And Sev, I'm almost with you on the Mormon thing. I find the religion, the origins of it, almost comical. For the life of me, I can't understand how it convinces a man of Romney's intellect.
I'd just ask you to consider the clownish Republican alternatives. I'll take the two Mormons any day.
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While much of what you say about the Bible is true, the chronology of it and what not, that's hardly proof that Jesus didn't exist. It suggests embellishment over time, not complete fiction. But historians are pretty certain that Christ exists. The Romans kept their own lists, after all.
And Sev, I'm almost with you on the Mormon thing. I find the religion, the origins of it, almost comical. For the life of me, I can't understand how it convinces a man of Romney's intellect.
I'd just ask you to consider the clownish Republican alternatives. I'll take the two Mormons any day.
While much of what you say about the Bible is true, the chronology of it and what not, that's hardly proof that Jesus didn't exist. It suggests embellishment over time, not complete fiction. But historians are pretty certain that Christ exists. The Romans kept their own lists, after all.
Then please, cite a piece of contemporary evidence of Christ's existence. The Romans were NOT as good of bookkeepers as is held to common belief. And the amount of embellishment is ludicrous. If you actually read the NT, it makes little sense as to why Joseph had to return to Bethlehem, but then they call his son Jesus of Nazareth. It really makes the most sense to me that the guy wasn't divine, but lots of people wanted him to be. That's why he's a conglomeration of Jewish and pagan myths and that's why his deeds were so magnificent. This is how Man created God.
And Sev, I'm almost with you on the Mormon thing. I find the religion, the origins of it, almost comical. For the life of me, I can't understand how it convinces a man of Romney's intellect.
Yet you're okay with someone not questioning alchemy (turning water into wine) and magic (walking on water) and necromancy (rising from the dead)? The NT is just as full of shit as the Book of Mormon. Mary probably got knocked up by Joseph and didn't want to get stoned to death. This little fib became the greatest lie ever told. Granted the battle of good and evil didn't take place in upstate New York, as it did in the BoM, but Lucifer was walking with Jesus for 40 days in the desert. Riiiiiiight. I mean, the whole damn book begins with a talking snake and ends with a 3-headed monster.
While scientist have continued to study and find new discoveries they only confirm that thre is a God and that everything written in the Bible is factual.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
boom roasted
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While much of what you say about the Bible is true, the chronology of it and what not, that's hardly proof that Jesus didn't exist. It suggests embellishment over time, not complete fiction. But historians are pretty certain that Christ exists. The Romans kept their own lists, after all.
Then please, cite a piece of contemporary evidence of Christ's existence. The Romans were NOT as good of bookkeepers as is held to common belief. And the amount of embellishment is ludicrous. If you actually read the NT, it makes little sense as to why Joseph had to return to Bethlehem, but then they call his son Jesus of Nazareth. It really makes the most sense to me that the guy wasn't divine, but lots of people wanted him to be. That's why he's a conglomeration of Jewish and pagan myths and that's why his deeds were so magnificent. This is how Man created God.
And Sev, I'm almost with you on the Mormon thing. I find the religion, the origins of it, almost comical. For the life of me, I can't understand how it convinces a man of Romney's intellect.
Yet you're okay with someone not questioning alchemy (turning water into wine) and magic (walking on water) and necromancy (rising from the dead)? The NT is just as full of shit as the Book of Mormon. Mary probably got knocked up by Joseph and didn't want to get stoned to death. This little fib became the greatest lie ever told. Granted the battle of good and evil didn't take place in upstate New York, as it did in the BoM, but Lucifer was walking with Jesus for 40 days in the desert. Riiiiiiight. I mean, the whole damn book begins with a talking snake and ends with a 3-headed monster.
While scientist have continued to study and find new discoveries they only confirm that thre is a God and that everything written in the Bible is factual.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
boom roasted
Then please, cite a piece of contemporary
C'mon guys, we don't klnow who shot Kennedy for sure, let alone a tale handed down over two thousand years and amanded every step of the way.
But my guess is that Mormonism is worse than Christianity because the Mormon candidates are Republicans and the fundamentalist Christian is Obama.....
Just a guess.
Would an atheist be just as far wrong?
WSS
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BTW Heck I missed This Week, though I usually record it.
I like Will a lot but he is what he is.
Also Krugman's line that Newt is "a stupid person’s idea of what a smart person sounds like" sounds autobiographical to me.....
And the new covenant with America 🥷 or whatever isn't any worse than Hope and Change I guess.
WSS
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C'mon guys, we don't klnow who shot Kennedy for sure, let alone a tale handed down over two thousand years and amanded every step of the way.
There's a huge difference between the two as there is video evidence of Jackie O reaching for her husband's brains from the exit wound.
But my guess is that Mormonism is worse than Christianity because the Mormon candidates are Republicans and the fundamentalist Christian is Obama.....
Well, it seems to me that the people who do have a problem with Mormonism tend to be be fundamentalist Christians who also believe Obama is a secret Muslim/African.
Just a guess.
Would an atheist be just as far wrong?
WSS
Apparently, seeing as anyone running for president that claimed to be one would be committing career suicide.
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C'mon guys, we don't klnow who shot Kennedy for sure, let alone a tale handed down over two thousand years and amanded every step of the way.
There's a huge difference between the two as there is video evidence of Jackie O reaching for her husband's brains from the exit wound.
But my guess is that Mormonism is worse than Christianity because the Mormon candidates are Republicans and the fundamentalist Christian is Obama.....
Well, it seems to me that the people who do have a problem with Mormonism tend to be be fundamentalist Christians who also believe Obama is a secret Muslim/African.
Just a guess.
Would an atheist be just as far wrong?
WSS
Apparently, seeing as anyone running for president that claimed to be one would be committing career suicide.
There's a huge difference between the two as there is video evidence of Jackie O reaching for her husband's brains from the exit wound.
Apparently, seeing as anyone running for president that claimed to be one would be committing career suicide.
Exactly the point doc.
That was within my lifetime and on TV and we still aren't that sure what happened.
Let alone 2000 years ago with little more than word of mouth among a fairly backwward population...
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons
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