Interesting Qb Discussion
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Wallace is more mobile than McCoy? baloney, unless it's that McCoy has been beaten up a whole lot more since he's been the guy.
The Browns don't have the luxury of drafting a qb. Even if you started him his rookie year - he'd get beaten up by rushes off the right side,
and still wouldn't find open receivers because Little would be double or triple covered, and he'd have no running game without Hillis.
I'll take McCoy over Flacculence any day, any time. Why? because just because Flacco has a solid oiine and solid rb's and solid te's and solid,
bigtime wr's... doesn't make him great. He isn't.
If McCoy had his offense all there, all the tools - McCoy is a smarter, quicker, more accurate qb than Flacco. I'm long since tired of the blaming of the qb
when Pashos should be a OG, when the Browns desperately need a blazing fast, get open quick wr to complement Little, MoMass is a long strider -
he doesn't make quick breaks, and doesn't have blazing speed. He all too often doesn't have the intensity to go after the ball - unless I'm just seeing him
having a lack of quick movement toward the ball because he isn't a quick stepper. I can see Richardson being in the same backfield with Hillis once in a while.
But the problem with the Browns' offense is not the qb's. Both Wallace and McCoy have the same problems, and any other qb will have the same problems.
Wallace is more mobile than McCoy? baloney, unless it's that McCoy has been beaten up a whole lot more since he's been the guy.
The Browns don't have the luxury of drafting a qb. Even if you started him his rookie year - he'd get beaten up by rushes off the right side,
and still wouldn't find open receivers because Little would be double or triple covered, and he'd have no running game without Hillis.
I'll take McCoy over Flacculence any day, any time. Why? because just because Flacco has a solid oiine and solid rb's and solid te's and solid,
bigtime wr's... doesn't make him great. He isn't.
If McCoy had his offense all there, all the tools - McCoy is a smarter, quicker, more accurate qb than Flacco. I'm long since tired of the blaming of the qb
when Pashos should be a OG, when the Browns desperately need a blazing fast, get open quick wr to complement Little, MoMass is a long strider -
he doesn't make quick breaks, and doesn't have blazing speed. He all too often doesn't have the intensity to go after the ball - unless I'm just seeing him
having a lack of quick movement toward the ball because he isn't a quick stepper. I can see Richardson being in the same backfield with Hillis once in a while.
But the problem with the Browns' offense is not the qb's. Both Wallace and McCoy have the same problems, and any other qb will have the same problems.
McCoy IS a more mobile QB than Wallace, although both have had to be mobile with the kind of time theyre getting after the snap.LOL.
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sure, sure.
but we need a serious compare/contrast of "franchise" QB's and the parts around them.
(including, perhaps most importantly, organizational and coaching/scheme structure)
Does one really exist without the other?
^^... and OL or at least OL depth... The needs are many. I think the point is you keep looking. History has shown that more "how'd we miss him" than "can't miss" collegiate QB's achieve greatness at the pro level.
As for the folks promoting RGIII... if he's the answer, I don't understand the question...
but we need a serious compare/contrast of "franchise" QB's and the parts around them. (including, perhaps most importantly, organizational and coaching/scheme structure) Does one really exist without the other?
Yes... I think it does... P. Manning in Indy? What would Indy's record be this year had he played every game? Are all of Indy's parts injured? Have they changed schemes? P. Manning is one-of-a-kind and an extreme example to be sure, but all great QB's elevate those around them.The physical talents that QB's who rise to franchise status feature vary greatly, e.g., size, speed, arm-strength, but the elements they all have in great quantity are a head for the game (high football IQ), leadership and a strong work ethic. Just ask Ryan Leaf... and Jamarcus Russell... and Matt Leinart... and Jeff George... and...
IMO, schemes and physical talent are far bigger factors at the collegiate level than the pro level.
Interesting April, 2011 article by Michael Lombardi, "Few have necessary traits to draft, coach quarterbacks".
"So if you were the Browns, you'd be looking for a quarterback," I said.
Really interesting read... and spot on."In that division, they have no other choice," he said. "But don't force it. That is a team that needs impact players at a lot of positions."
Link: http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/index.ssf/2011/12/cleveland_browns_colt_mccoy_mi.html
Ben is the AFC North's only franchise QB at present. Dalton has a chance of developing into one. Flacco has no chance.
I don't remember Brian Sipe being very big........but he had weapons.........just sayin.
Ozzie, Mike/ Greg Pruitt and who? Rucker? Logan? Sipe had a great football mind and that most elusive quality... Leadership. I think he was able to elevate the play of those around him... Of course it didn't hurt that he also played at the same time as one of the Browns', all-time Defenses...
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Because we've been "improving" on that position since 1999 without improving the rest of the offense. How many different QB's do we have to bring in before everyone realizes that changing QB's is not going to magically fix this team?! QB is not the problem people!!! We have had #1 overall QB's, veterans, 3rd round picks...None have been able to fix the problem, because the problem is the lack of talent that we have offensively around every QB we bring in!
How many times have I said it: Use the Steelers model when they got BR. What did they do? They built up the nastiest defense in the league, they built up a great running game with really good receivers.
Finally, ultimately, they brought in a QB as the final piece. In that QBs rookie season they went 15-1, but that rookie played only a minor part in that record. He did fine for a rookie, but he was by no means the difference.
If the Browns used their first 3 picks in the draft to take a linebacker, another DB, and a DE it would not break my heart. Seriously.
I know they need offensive playmakers....a #1 receiver and a scatback, but if they went for defense that is a strategy that wouldn't upset me. In a year or 2 the Browns could find their version of BR.
How many times have I said it: Use the Steelers model when they got BR. What did they do? They built up the nastiest defense in the league, they built up a great running game with really good receivers.
Finally, ultimately, they brought in a QB as the final piece. In that QBs rookie season they went 15-1, but that rookie played only a minor part in that record. He did fine for a rookie, but he was by no means the difference.
If the Browns used their first 3 picks in the draft to take a linebacker, another DB, and a DE it would not break my heart. Seriously.
I know they need offensive playmakers....a #1 receiver and a scatback, but if they went for defense that is a strategy that wouldn't upset me. In a year or 2 the Browns could find their version of BR.
Ben Rothlisberger is a unique QB. They dont make them like him very often, but you have the right idea. Ideally, a team would spend their money on building a reliable core of defensive players then add playmakers around that. This idea going around that linemen are a dime a dozen and are fat, unintelligent, useless athletes is Retarded. I hate how so many people here are quick to throw around the term "Franchise QB" and acknowledge how the trend at the QB position is moving toward a mobile QB who is a dual threat with both his ability to scramble and throw, but fail to make the correlation between that and how the average NFL lineman's duties have changed. A lineman like DeMarcus Ware, Suh, Thomas, etc. can make all the difference in the way a QB is perceived and in the success he has, even if he is on D, because a defensive game can affect the personnel and packages that an offense is going to run in their offensive series'.
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Ben is the AFC North's only franchise QB at present. Dalton has a chance of developing into one. Flacco has no chance.
At this point in their careers Dalton is the far superior player....or at least the more productive QB. Whether or not he would continue on an arc that would make him as good as BR has turned out to be remains to be seen.
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Rookie numbers for BR:
Played 14 games, started 13. 196 completions in 295 attempts for a 66.4 completion pct.
17 TD passes 5.8% TD pct.
11 Ints. 3.7 int. pct.
8.9 ypa
13.4 ypc
187.2 ypg
98.1 rating
30 sacks
Rookie numbers for Dalton:
Played 15 games, started 14. 278 completions in 472 attempts for a 58.9 completion pct.
20 TD passes 4.2% TD
13 ints. 2.8% int.
6.7 ypa
11.4 ypc
211.1 ypg
81.8 rating
23 sacks
maybe it is closer than I thought.
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Something Ben and dalton both had that colt doesn't......some talented WRs
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http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2011/12/cleveland_browns_colt_mccoy_ha_1.html
What does everyone think of this? Ive been arguing these exact same points with all my typical, unrealistic browns buddies but they are all for getting rid of colt and drafting RG3 and its makes me sick to my stomach how dumb people are. Getting rid of people every year and starting fresh hasnt worked for how long now?
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2011/12/cleveland_browns_colt_mccoy_ha_1.html
What does everyone think of this? Ive been arguing these exact same points with all my typical, unrealistic browns buddies but they are all for getting rid of colt and drafting RG3 and its makes me sick to my stomach how dumb people are. Getting rid of people every year and starting fresh hasnt worked for how long now?
We need to remember that Colt is still basically a rookie. Sure, he had the "Camp Colts", but all he had was a playbook (of a new system) & HIS interpretation of all the new stuff. He has shown me guts, determination, leadership, & a great attitude. Now let's surround him with some playmakers, a full & functional off season, THEN see what he shows. What I find ridiculous is that many naysayers are pushing for that big, physical, strong armed QB for the AFC North yet they have suggested Barkley (Colt's height, 8 lbs heavier, not as mobile), & RG3 (Colt's height, also 8 lbs heavier, more mobile, inaccurate under heavy pressure, & a college underclassman who has yet to have consecutive dominant COLLEGE seasons!). Sorry folks, I fail to see the logic in that type change. I want to see what Colt does with some tools & I trust Heckert & Co to provide those.
Mike
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How many times have I said it: Use the Steelers model when they got BR. What did they do? They built up the nastiest defense in the league, they built up a great running game with really good receivers.
Finally, ultimately, they brought in a QB as the final piece. In that QBs rookie season they went 15-1, but that rookie played only a minor part in that record. He did fine for a rookie, but he was by no means the difference.
If the Browns used their first 3 picks in the draft to take a linebacker, another DB, and a DE it would not break my heart. Seriously.
I know they need offensive playmakers....a #1 receiver and a scatback, but if they went for defense that is a strategy that wouldn't upset me. In a year or 2 the Browns could find their version of BR.
Ben Rothlisberger is a unique QB. They dont make them like him very often, but you have the right idea. Ideally, a team would spend their money on building a reliable core of defensive players then add playmakers around that. This idea going around that linemen are a dime a dozen and are fat, unintelligent, useless athletes is Retarded. I hate how so many people here are quick to throw around the term "Franchise QB" and acknowledge how the trend at the QB position is moving toward a mobile QB who is a dual threat with both his ability to scramble and throw, but fail to make the correlation between that and how the average NFL lineman's duties have changed. A lineman like DeMarcus Ware, Suh, Thomas, etc. can make all the difference in the way a QB is perceived and in the success he has, even if he is on D, because a defensive game can affect the personnel and packages that an offense is going to run in their offensive series'.
Ideally, a team would spend their money on building a reliable core of defensive players then add playmakers around that. This idea going around that linemen are a dime a dozen and are fat, unintelligent, useless athletes is Retarded.
So you pay no attention to lineman in your build-a-team scenario and then condemn those that slight linemen?
You have to build a serviceable O-line. Spend top picks when the talent-level of the prospect demands you do (ala Joe Thomas or PTG's Pouncey pick) and then fill with mid/ low round prospects with promise. It is these linemen that are "dime a dozen" in NFL pay terms... and many of them become very serviceable, long-term assets.
Nothing unique to linemen about the above approach... same case could be made for every position.
Something Ben and dalton both had that colt doesn't......some talented WRs
Colt has some WR talent, they just have more... but it's not like Cinci and PTG are stocked with wide-outs that were blue-chippers coming out of college. They both scouted well and drafted well...
He has shown me guts, determination, leadership, & a great attitude. What I find ridiculous is that many naysayers are pushing for that big, physical, strong armed QB for the AFC North...
While I agree with your Colt assessment, you have to keep looking...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Ideally, a team would spend their money on building a reliable core of defensive players then add playmakers around that. This idea going around that linemen are a dime a dozen and are fat, unintelligent, useless athletes is Retarded.
So you pay no attention to lineman in your build-a-team scenario and then condemn those that slight linemen?
You have to build a serviceable O-line. Spend top picks when the talent-level of the prospect demands you do (ala Joe Thomas or PTG's Pouncey pick) and then fill with mid/ low round prospects with promise. It is these linemen that are "dime a dozen" in NFL pay terms... and many of them become very serviceable, long-term assets.
Nothing unique to linemen about the above approach... same case could be made for every position.
Something Ben and dalton both had that colt doesn't......some talented WRs
Colt has some WR talent, they just have more... but it's not like Cinci and PTG are stocked with wide-outs that were blue-chippers coming out of college. They both scouted well and drafted well...
He has shown me guts, determination, leadership, & a great attitude. What I find ridiculous is that many naysayers are pushing for that big, physical, strong armed QB for the AFC North...
While I agree with your Colt assessment, you have to keep looking...
Colt has some WR talent, they just have more... but it's not like Cinci and PTG are stocked with wide-outs that were blue-chippers coming out of college. They both scouted well and drafted well...
You don't need a ton of talent...just a few quality Players
Gresham and green are certified studs in cincy
Wallace and Heath miller are great not to mention Hines ward who they've had for years and Antonio brown who was a steal
Of course you have to hit on ur picks but you also have to show them support even if they struggle early on. If a guy gets replaced early then he really can't develop properly
Pitt brings their guys along slowly...they always have and it helps them learn the offense
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Colt has some WR talent, they just have more... but it's not like Cinci and PTG are stocked with wide-outs that were blue-chippers coming out of college. They both scouted well and drafted well...
You don't need a ton of talent...just a few quality Players
Gresham and green are certified studs in cincy
Wallace and Heath miller are great not to mention Hines ward who they've had for years and Antonio brown who was a steal
Of course you have to hit on ur picks but you also have to show them support even if they struggle early on. If a guy gets replaced early then he really can't develop properly
Pitt brings their guys along slowly...they always have and it helps them learn the offense
Of course you have to hit on ur picks but you also have to show them support even if they struggle early on.
That depends on how they struggle. Some things (technique, strength, knowledge...) are addressable with time and experience; some things (speed, quickness, balance...) are innate and are not teachable.
How long do we "develop" Robiske?
The other side of that "show-them-support" coin, namely moving on after it's clear you've made a mistake, is just as important.
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Ideally, a team would spend their money on building a reliable core of defensive players then add playmakers around that. This idea going around that linemen are a dime a dozen and are fat, unintelligent, useless athletes is Retarded.
So you pay no attention to lineman in your build-a-team scenario and then condemn those that slight linemen?
You have to build a serviceable O-line. Spend top picks when the talent-level of the prospect demands you do (ala Joe Thomas or PTG's Pouncey pick) and then fill with mid/ low round prospects with promise. It is these linemen that are "dime a dozen" in NFL pay terms... and many of them become very serviceable, long-term assets.
Nothing unique to linemen about the above approach... same case could be made for every position.
Something Ben and dalton both had that colt doesn't......some talented WRs
Colt has some WR talent, they just have more... but it's not like Cinci and PTG are stocked with wide-outs that were blue-chippers coming out of college. They both scouted well and drafted well...
He has shown me guts, determination, leadership, & a great attitude. What I find ridiculous is that many naysayers are pushing for that big, physical, strong armed QB for the AFC North...
While I agree with your Colt assessment, you have to keep looking...
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Of course you have to hit on ur picks but you also have to show them support even if they struggle early on.
That depends on how they struggle. Some things (technique, strength, knowledge...) are addressable with time and experience; some things (speed, quickness, balance...) are innate and are not teachable.
How long do we "develop" Robiske?
The other side of that "show-them-support" coin, namely moving on after it's clear you've made a mistake, is just as important.
That depends on how they struggle. Some things (technique, strength, knowledge...) are addressable with time and experience; some things (speed, quickness, balance...) are innate and are not teachable.
How long do we "develop" Robiske?
The other side of that "show-them-support" coin, namely moving on after it's clear you've made a mistake, is just as important.
Admitting you made a mistake is one of the hardest things for a coach to do.
Giving a player time is one of the hardest things a browns fan can do
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