Four Fifths Of Ol Determined
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Something I've never understood, maybe someone can help.. What is the difference in size and skill set between a guard and a tackle? Obv LT is most important and needs to be big, strong, agile to defend the blindside of the QB. But like what would make someone a better RG than RT or vice versa?
Usually wing span is the more desirable measure but if your taller you usually have a longer wing span which helps you in pass protection. Dlineman use a swim technique and its widely known that it works well on shorter lineman.
If you look at a guy like Zeitler he is 6'3 1/2'' and his socuting report says he's a worker a mauler a strong kid that struggles with quicker DLineman- all this to me doesn't equate to a RT and suggests he probably works better in tighter spaces. A RT isn't your typical run blocker as it used to be - now NFL teams are lining up viable pash rushers (like Sheard) on that side.
Usually wing span is the more desirable measure but if your taller you usually have a longer wing span which helps you in pass protection. Dlineman use a swim technique and its widely known that it works well on shorter lineman.
If you look at a guy like Zeitler he is 6'3 1/2'' and his socuting report says he's a worker a mauler a strong kid that struggles with quicker DLineman- all this to me doesn't equate to a RT and suggests he probably works better in tighter spaces. A RT isn't your typical run blocker as it used to be - now NFL teams are lining up viable pash rushers (like Sheard) on that side.
At a minimum the wingspan insures the OT can hold the faster DE...
Arm length does help force speed rushers deep and beyond the QB, but you still have to get within arm's reach. Ya gotta have the feet.Have not seen the above criticism of Zeitler. Only that he had some trouble getting to the 2nd level LB's while run blocking. Reports I've seen on his pass blocking technique are glowing.
Cribbsey,
Originally in the run oriented NFL when the 4-3 was the standard D, OG's needed the quickness as they did all the pulling while OT's needed the strength to close down the D-line sealing the end to be pulled around. Pass protection was almost an afterthought and bull rushing was the norm.
When the 3-4 came along suddenly OT's were facing faster, smaller OLB's regularly and speed rushing became prominent. The 3-4 (which really was a run defense) helped usher in the pass oriented era we're "enjoying" today. Then a 4-3 featuring smaller, faster DE's emerged... and to keep the rushing under control DT's/ NT's got massive.
As speed on the D's edges became common, the premium on OT agility emerged. As interior DL grew in size, the OG premium shifted to strength. Essentially the opposite of the original, desirable traits for each position.
And the role reversal yielded zone blocking... no speed to pull required... no strength to set the edge required...
Anyway agility is now a key OT trait.
What was the question???
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Straight from Profootball Weekly...
Upside:
• Excellent mass and girth — thick-bodied and wide-shouldered
• Midwestern work ethic
• Tough, smart and competitive
• Superb weight-room and functional playing strength
• Good grip strength to lock up, steer and control
• Plays on his feet with balance
Downside:
• Lumbers some on the move and can be stressed by quickness• Labors to connect with a moving target on the second level
• Can do a better job gauging his power, striking with more power
• Tends to grab and hold more than strike and reload punch
• Has a history of ankle injuries
The Way We See It:
A very smart, steady, blue-collar power blocker who’s capable of eliminating defenders when he gets his hands on them. Can step into a lineup readily but always might have some struggles handling quickness.
I don't want to turn this into a Zeitler v. Osemele debate....I honestly think we need to do better than both of these guys...but if I had to pick a right tackle it would be Osemele.
Also, wingspan is just as big IMO- although you are correct you need feet. You extend the arc and make a dlineman come further up the field with a longer wingspan- HUGE in the NFL as most QBs stay in the pocket. You also work into their body before they engage you- if your wingspan is longer. Wingspan can create a pocket.
Also, would like to add. Most NFL teams can and will convert college tackles into guards in the NFL- it usually doesn't work the other way.
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What was the question???
Who do the Browns have or who can they get to start a Right Tackle?
How about this guy in the third round: Mitchell Schwartz of Cal:
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=71693&draftyear=2012&genpos=OT
Randy Lerner may want to push for this guy. He's Jewish!
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So is everyone in our O-Line a Browns Draft product?
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Straight from Profootball Weekly...
Upside:
• Excellent mass and girth — thick-bodied and wide-shouldered
• Midwestern work ethic
• Tough, smart and competitive
• Superb weight-room and functional playing strength
• Good grip strength to lock up, steer and control
• Plays on his feet with balance
Downside:
• Lumbers some on the move and can be stressed by quickness• Labors to connect with a moving target on the second level
• Can do a better job gauging his power, striking with more power
• Tends to grab and hold more than strike and reload punch
• Has a history of ankle injuries
The Way We See It:
A very smart, steady, blue-collar power blocker who’s capable of eliminating defenders when he gets his hands on them. Can step into a lineup readily but always might have some struggles handling quickness.
I don't want to turn this into a Zeitler v. Osemele debate....I honestly think we need to do better than both of these guys...but if I had to pick a right tackle it would be Osemele.
Also, wingspan is just as big IMO- although you are correct you need feet. You extend the arc and make a dlineman come further up the field with a longer wingspan- HUGE in the NFL as most QBs stay in the pocket. You also work into their body before they engage you- if your wingspan is longer. Wingspan can create a pocket.
Also, would like to add. Most NFL teams can and will convert college tackles into guards in the NFL- it usually doesn't work the other way.
Straight from Profootball Weekly...
Upside:
• Plays on his feet with balance
Downside:
• Lumbers some on the move and can be stressed by quickness• Labors to connect with a moving target on the second level
• Can do a better job gauging his power, striking with more power
• Tends to grab and hold more than strike and reload punch
The Way We See It:
Can step into a lineup readily but always might have some struggles handling quickness.
I don't want to turn this into a Zeitler v. Osemele debate....I honestly think we need to do better than both of these guys...but if I had to pick a right tackle it would be Osemele.
Also, wingspan is just as big IMO- although you are correct you need feet. You extend the arc and make a dlineman come further up the field with a longer wingspan- HUGE in the NFL as most QBs stay in the pocket. You also work into their body before they engage you- if your wingspan is longer. Wingspan can create a pocket.
Also, would like to add. Most NFL teams can and will convert college tackles into guards in the NFL- it usually doesn't work the other way.
True... more move inside than outside, but it's not a one-way street.
Zeitler points taken... thanks for the info. Everything I've read was far more glowing, including one which saw him as a capable RT, with the only negative being the 2nd level shortcomings. For example:
3. Kevin Zeitler' date=' Wisconsin 6-4, 315Proj. 2
Positives: A tackle-sized guard. A terrific run blocker who’s able to get a great shove on the inside. … Tremendously consistent. As reliable as any blocker in the draft. Doesn’t make mistakes. Can start out of the box. … Terrific in a phone booth. Gets a great push in a power game and is excellent on the move.
Negatives: Might have to work to keep his weight up. He’s not thin, but he’s a bit lean for a blasting guard, down a little bit during Senior Bowl weigh ins. … Won’t necessarily bury his man. While a powerful blocker, he’s not a pancake guy. … Not necessarily quick. Might not work in every system. [/quote']
I've watched video on both and granted Osemele was at LT, but I wasn't impressed. Not quick... I'm thinking we'll agree to disagree.
What was the question???
Who do the Browns have or who can they get to start a Right Tackle?
How about this guy in the third round: Mitchell Schwartz of Cal:
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=71693&draftyear=2012&genpos=OT
Schwartz has back issues. Not that strong (23 reps). Not that athletic. Most projections I've seen have him in the 5th or 6th Rnd. A couple have him likely ending up at OG.
How high a pick do you want to spend? There are four or five projected to go in Rnd 1...
Zerbie Sanders (FSU) is a 2nd (maybe 3rd) round prospect, but is more of a project.
Ditto for Bobby Massie (Mississippi) coming out as a Jr.
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Here is a blog I found:
BROWNS: Jason Pinkston and Shawn Lauvao will "almost certainly" be the starting guards for a second straight season, according to the Canton Repository. Pinkson was a rookie fifth-round pick a year ago, and Lauvao was drafted in the third round in 2010. “Hopefully, those guys improve and play even better than they played last year," general manager Tom Heckert said. Hensley's slant: The right side of the line is a concern with Lauvao and the current hole at right tackle. Lauvao gave up 4.5 sacks and committed eight penalties in his first full season as a starter. It's unknown what the Browns plan to do at tackle after injured Tony Pashos was cut and Artis Hicks signed with Miami. Oniel Cousins isn't the answer there.
So, we will have Joe Thomas at LT, Pinkston at LG, Mack at C, and Lauvao at RG. OK, then there is the RT spot.
Based on the Browns official website roster, these are the other OL on the roster (it does not distinguish between guards, tackles, centers):
Dominic Alford
Oneil Cousins
Stanley Daniels
John Greco
Jarrod Shaw
and Steve Vallos is a FA, but unsigned elsewhere.
The Canton Depository sees no starter in this group. Do any of you?
It pretty clear that a RT must be high on the Browns hit list for the draft. Maybe even at #22, and probably not any lower than their #37 pick
Here is a blog I found:
The Canton Depository sees no starter in this group. Do any of you?
It pretty clear that a RT must be high on the Browns hit list for the draft. Maybe even at #22, and probably not any lower than their #37 pick[/color]
And despite protestations from a certain corner- I really don't understand why in the hell the Browns didn't make a serious effort to land Winston- unless their intention all along is to use the #22 on a RT.
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Here is a blog I found:
The Canton Depository sees no starter in this group. Do any of you?
It pretty clear that a RT must be high on the Browns hit list for the draft. Maybe even at #22, and probably not any lower than their #37 pick[/color]
And despite protestations from a certain corner- I really don't understand why in the hell the Browns didn't make a serious effort to land Winston- unless their intention all along is to use the #22 on a RT.
And despite protestations from a certain corner- I really don't understand why in the hell the Browns didn't make a serious effort to land Winston- unless their intention all along is to use the #22 on a RT.
Again, I agree. Makes no sense.
As for starters, I think Greco will take one of the guard spots.....probably Luavo's spot.
We need a RT in a bad way. We have to draft one, and the sooner the better.
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Mike Adams will be a first-round pick, he's the fourth OT behind kalil/reiff(iowa)/martin(stanford). he's quite easily better than sanders from FSU.
I'd be happy with him at RT, it's who I've thought they'll target with that pick.
Cleveland could take Kalil at 4 if Minn takes Claiborne, then WR at 22.
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Mike Adams will be a first-round pick, he's the fourth OT behind kalil/reiff(iowa)/martin(stanford). he's quite easily better than sanders from FSU.
I'd be happy with him at RT, it's who I've thought they'll target with that pick.
Cleveland could take Kalil at 4 if Minn takes Claiborne, then WR at 22.
Mike Adams will be a first-round pick, he's the fourth OT behind kalil/reiff(iowa)/martin(stanford). he's quite easily better than sanders from FSU.
I'd be happy with him at RT, it's who I've thought they'll target with that pick.
Cleveland could take Kalil at 4 if Minn takes Claiborne, then WR at 22.
Seriously? You dont take a Right Tackle with the #4 pick....
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Mike Adams will be a first-round pick, he's the fourth OT behind kalil/reiff(iowa)/martin(stanford). he's quite easily better than sanders from FSU.
I'd be happy with him at RT, it's who I've thought they'll target with that pick.
Cleveland could take Kalil at 4 if Minn takes Claiborne, then WR at 22.
Seriously? You dont take a Right Tackle with the #4 pick....
Seriously? You dont take a Right Tackle with the #4 pick....
The point would be to trade him to StL for two firsts or to CAR for a lot of picks plus Stewart to be our starting RB - or someone else willing to pay for an All-Pro LT.
Kalil would be the pick, he just wouldn't end up in a Browns uniform.
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Seriously? You dont take a Right Tackle with the #4 pick....
The point would be to trade him to StL for two firsts or to CAR for a lot of picks plus Stewart to be our starting RB - or someone else willing to pay for an All-Pro LT.
Kalil would be the pick, he just wouldn't end up in a Browns uniform.
The point would be to trade him to StL for two firsts or to CAR for a lot of picks plus Stewart to be our starting RB - or someone else willing to pay for an All-Pro LT.
Kalil would be the pick, he just wouldn't end up in a Browns uniform.
You have no leverage to get the haul that you think we would get by drafting and then trading Kalil. They know we won't keep him and you Reiff and Martin as fall back guys.
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Schwartz has back issues. Not that strong (23 reps). Not that athletic. Most projections I've seen have him in the 5th or 6th Rnd. A couple have him likely ending up at OG.
Wrong. Nearly every scouting service disagrees with you and has him going in about the third round:
CBSSports
Pro Football Weekly
NFL Toolbox
Walter football
Todd McShay
ONLY NFL.com has him rated as low as 5th-6th round.
So, I stick by my comment that he may be a RT the Browns may consider as high as the third round.
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