TRAVIS HAFNER
-
Wow. First, I have no idea what you mean by OBS. Must be one of those made up stats. Concerning OPS, it's been around for 25 years. Been in existence forever, though it has only found its way on the back of baseball cards in the last four years so that's what you must be talking about.
It was a typo. I meant OBP. As for OPS, it is baseball's version of a QB rating. You can put stock in it if you want. I don't. But according to you, if I don't put stock in every stat you do, I must not know anything. *yawn*
The "only real number" thing? You're that guy? Awesome. I've met the rest of your family all over the internet.
And your one of those guys. You know the type. Your OPINION is fact and no others can differ *sigh*
Hafner's walk rate dropped from 18.1 to 15.8, his OBP from .439 to .385, his SLG from .659 to .451, his OPS from 1.097 to .837, his ISO from .350 to .185 and his BABIP from .326 to .298. And to you, that's simply explained away by a drop in home runs. I must say, I admire your innocence. Not your inquisitiveness so much, but that sadness at the suggestion of steroid use is very cute.
So now steroids impact walks? Here I thought it came down to pitches. Yeah, his walks were down. And? SLG and OPS are both greatly impacted by a reduction in HR. I just showed how the OPS is calculated. What are the two things that make it up? Oh yes, it's OBP and SLG. Gee, if my slugging is down why oh why would my OPS drop significatantly? It's not lack of inquisitive, it's understanding math. Stats are pretty useless if you don't understand how they are achieved. Slugging is total bases (so Travis in 07 lost roughly 60 TB by having less HRs, or roughly .100 points off the SLG by getting that many less HR), while getting 100 more ABs, which is what TB is devided by to get you that SLG. See how easy less HRs can impact the slugging?
For the OPS, his AB went up 100 but walks and SO were pretty much the same between 2006 and 2007, as well as total hits. Why golly gee, perhaps he was just lining out more, especially with the shift teams started putting on him. That's gonna be a big hit on the OBP. You know the other half of the OPS. But I guess whe should assume all players will do more with an extra 100 ABs, rather than it possibly taking a toll on a player (or the players shoulder that he jerks practically out of place with every swing).
This is why I can't take you seriously. You say that "steroids don't increase a persons hand/eye coordination" while that very topic is the source of much debate.
For every Bobby Valentine comment about steroids not being injected in the eyes, there's a comment from Tony Gwynn about steroids improving muscle responses and hand/eye coordination. Or as Lee Jenkins wrote in the New York Times:
But their uncertain influence on a player's strength, bat speed, hand-eye coordination and confidence has become a source of debate
According to you, the debate is finished and there's little to discuss.
So what you go to show is how inclussive so many things are about the impact of steroids, yet the first assumption and accusation you make on a player is steriod use. See why I can't you seriously? I certainly don't think the debate is finished. But it's so damn inconslusive I won't latch on to everything and instantly jump to conclusions about any player who has their first injury or their first off year.
That's nothing. I'm starting to question if you're not my sister. She's a big baseball fan but she struggles with stats and logic. I'm just happy she's a fan. Ignoring the back and forth, I feel the same way about you.
I am starting to question if you're the cranky old guy sitting on his front porch yelling at kids to get off his lawn. Of course this proves my point that you like to jump to conclusions.
I have no freaking clue if Pronk was a roid junkie. But pointing at his "down year" - when he had ~50 fewer total bases than the prior season - even with far more plate appearances, isn't exactly a point in the favor of those who suggest he was clean.[/b]
One down year. It as easily can just be an off year for a guy going through contract negotations, still coming off the broken hand the year before, pitchers making more adjustments against him, spending more time in the 3 hole instead of the 4 hole in the line up (remember, Travis was hitting clean up in 2006 the majority of time, while batting 3rd 2007. But I'll guess you don't think where a guy hits in the order ever impacts his production, pitches seen, or the players comfort level at the plate), teams starting to do the shifting of the infield around on him, etc.
Do you think Miguel Cabrera, Jim Thome, David Ortiz, and may others were all on, off, and back on steriods? I can point to an off year for everyone of those guys and 100's more of MLB players. If you are such the expert you are now trying to portray yourself as and belittle me, you'd think you'd be aware of how oftern player in MLB, the NFL, NBA, or any other sport have an off year that doesn't match up with all their other production. As well as how easly other distractions can impact them.
And jumping to the weight loss and injury as a point to steroids is what makes it quite laughable. If you go off the juice, you don't lose only 10lbs. That is all Travis has reportedly lost. Wow, that's quite a reduction. Maybe my girlfriend was on steroids too. Here I thought she was just eating better, but I guess she was juicing and that's why she lost 10lbs over the winter.
The injury, as pointed out by the doctor is a normal injury for a hitter. It's also Travis first and only injury of that type. Every player that ever needed Tommy John surgery or any other arm, shoulder, or elbow injury must have been juicing.
You know what I find sad? That the person calling someone who is giving a player the benifit of the doubt ignorant. But I guess making people guilty until proven innocent is your idea of non-ignorance.
You'll have to forgive me for waiting and seeing if Travis now stays healthy and returns to form before I presume he was juicing.
-
Wow. First, I have no idea what you mean by OBS. Must be one of those made up stats. Concerning OPS, it's been around for 25 years. Been in existence forever, though it has only found its way on the back of baseball cards in the last four years so that's what you must be talking about.
It was a typo. I meant OBP. As for OPS, it is baseball's version of a QB rating. You can put stock in it if you want. I don't. But according to you, if I don't put stock in every stat you do, I must not know anything. *yawn*
The "only real number" thing? You're that guy? Awesome. I've met the rest of your family all over the internet.
And your one of those guys. You know the type. Your OPINION is fact and no others can differ *sigh*
Hafner's walk rate dropped from 18.1 to 15.8, his OBP from .439 to .385, his SLG from .659 to .451, his OPS from 1.097 to .837, his ISO from .350 to .185 and his BABIP from .326 to .298. And to you, that's simply explained away by a drop in home runs. I must say, I admire your innocence. Not your inquisitiveness so much, but that sadness at the suggestion of steroid use is very cute.
So now steroids impact walks? Here I thought it came down to pitches. Yeah, his walks were down. And? SLG and OPS are both greatly impacted by a reduction in HR. I just showed how the OPS is calculated. What are the two things that make it up? Oh yes, it's OBP and SLG. Gee, if my slugging is down why oh why would my OPS drop significatantly? It's not lack of inquisitive, it's understanding math. Stats are pretty useless if you don't understand how they are achieved. Slugging is total bases (so Travis in 07 lost roughly 60 TB by having less HRs, or roughly .100 points off the SLG by getting that many less HR), while getting 100 more ABs, which is what TB is devided by to get you that SLG. See how easy less HRs can impact the slugging?
For the OPS, his AB went up 100 but walks and SO were pretty much the same between 2006 and 2007, as well as total hits. Why golly gee, perhaps he was just lining out more, especially with the shift teams started putting on him. That's gonna be a big hit on the OBP. You know the other half of the OPS. But I guess whe should assume all players will do more with an extra 100 ABs, rather than it possibly taking a toll on a player (or the players shoulder that he jerks practically out of place with every swing).
This is why I can't take you seriously. You say that "steroids don't increase a persons hand/eye coordination" while that very topic is the source of much debate.
For every Bobby Valentine comment about steroids not being injected in the eyes, there's a comment from Tony Gwynn about steroids improving muscle responses and hand/eye coordination. Or as Lee Jenkins wrote in the New York Times:
But their uncertain influence on a player's strength, bat speed, hand-eye coordination and confidence has become a source of debate
According to you, the debate is finished and there's little to discuss.
So what you go to show is how inclussive so many things are about the impact of steroids, yet the first assumption and accusation you make on a player is steriod use. See why I can't you seriously? I certainly don't think the debate is finished. But it's so damn inconslusive I won't latch on to everything and instantly jump to conclusions about any player who has their first injury or their first off year.
That's nothing. I'm starting to question if you're not my sister. She's a big baseball fan but she struggles with stats and logic. I'm just happy she's a fan. Ignoring the back and forth, I feel the same way about you.
I am starting to question if you're the cranky old guy sitting on his front porch yelling at kids to get off his lawn. Of course this proves my point that you like to jump to conclusions.
I have no freaking clue if Pronk was a roid junkie. But pointing at his "down year" - when he had ~50 fewer total bases than the prior season - even with far more plate appearances, isn't exactly a point in the favor of those who suggest he was clean.[/b]
One down year. It as easily can just be an off year for a guy going through contract negotations, still coming off the broken hand the year before, pitchers making more adjustments against him, spending more time in the 3 hole instead of the 4 hole in the line up (remember, Travis was hitting clean up in 2006 the majority of time, while batting 3rd 2007. But I'll guess you don't think where a guy hits in the order ever impacts his production, pitches seen, or the players comfort level at the plate), teams starting to do the shifting of the infield around on him, etc.
Do you think Miguel Cabrera, Jim Thome, David Ortiz, and may others were all on, off, and back on steriods? I can point to an off year for everyone of those guys and 100's more of MLB players. If you are such the expert you are now trying to portray yourself as and belittle me, you'd think you'd be aware of how oftern player in MLB, the NFL, NBA, or any other sport have an off year that doesn't match up with all their other production. As well as how easly other distractions can impact them.
And jumping to the weight loss and injury as a point to steroids is what makes it quite laughable. If you go off the juice, you don't lose only 10lbs. That is all Travis has reportedly lost. Wow, that's quite a reduction. Maybe my girlfriend was on steroids too. Here I thought she was just eating better, but I guess she was juicing and that's why she lost 10lbs over the winter.
The injury, as pointed out by the doctor is a normal injury for a hitter. It's also Travis first and only injury of that type. Every player that ever needed Tommy John surgery or any other arm, shoulder, or elbow injury must have been juicing.
You know what I find sad? That the person calling someone who is giving a player the benifit of the doubt ignorant. But I guess making people guilty until proven innocent is your idea of non-ignorance.
You'll have to forgive me for waiting and seeing if Travis now stays healthy and returns to form before I presume he was juicing.
Masters said:
It was a typo. I meant OBP. As for OPS, it is baseball's version of a QB rating. You can put stock in it if you want. I don't. But according to you, if I don't put stock in every stat you do, I must not know anything. *yawn*First off, I don't put any stock in typos. Hell, I misspelled my own screen-name in an earlier reply. I just had no idea what you meant by OBS. I disagree with you about the value of OPS (and think it's not remotely similar to QB rating) but I do apologize for suggesting that you don't know anything. I've been trying to build this board for nearly a decade in various formats (btw, I'm in my 30's and you're still not allowed on my lawn) and a dissenting voice is welcome.
I will take exception with this comment of yours:
yet the first assumption and accusation you make on a player is steriod use.
That's simply not true and I'm curious as to how you came to that conclusion. It certainly didn't happen in this thread and I'd like for you to back that up, if at all possible.
BTW, the greatest evidence that Hafner didn't use roids is his 2006 season, when testing was first implemented. We disagree about the strength of it compared to his 2007 season, but it's evidence enough for me (with my fanboy hat placed firmly atop my head) that Pronk was clean.
Beanpot
-
Masters said:
It was a typo. I meant OBP. As for OPS, it is baseball's version of a QB rating. You can put stock in it if you want. I don't. But according to you, if I don't put stock in every stat you do, I must not know anything. *yawn*First off, I don't put any stock in typos. Hell, I misspelled my own screen-name in an earlier reply. I just had no idea what you meant by OBS. I disagree with you about the value of OPS (and think it's not remotely similar to QB rating) but I do apologize for suggesting that you don't know anything. I've been trying to build this board for nearly a decade in various formats (btw, I'm in my 30's and you're still not allowed on my lawn) and a dissenting voice is welcome.
I will take exception with this comment of yours:
yet the first assumption and accusation you make on a player is steriod use.
That's simply not true and I'm curious as to how you came to that conclusion. It certainly didn't happen in this thread and I'd like for you to back that up, if at all possible.
BTW, the greatest evidence that Hafner didn't use roids is his 2006 season, when testing was first implemented. We disagree about the strength of it compared to his 2007 season, but it's evidence enough for me (with my fanboy hat placed firmly atop my head) that Pronk was clean.
Beanpot
First off, I don't put any stock in typos. Hell, I misspelled my own screen-name in an earlier reply. I just had no idea what you meant by OBS. I disagree with you about the value of OPS (and think it's not remotely similar to QB rating) but I do apologize for suggesting that you don't know anything. I've been trying to build this board for nearly a decade in various formats (btw, I'm in my 30's and you're still not allowed on my lawn) and a dissenting voice is welcome.
I will take exception with this comment of yours:
That's simply not true and I'm curious as to how you came to that conclusion. It certainly didn't happen in this thread and I'd like for you to back that up, if at all possible.
BTW, the greatest evidence that Hafner didn't use roids is his 2006 season, when testing was first implemented. We disagree about the strength of it compared to his 2007 season, but it's evidence enough for me (with my fanboy hat placed firmly atop my head) that Pronk was clean.
Beanpot
I came to that conclusion by your first post in this thread. You said the following:
"Let's see?? Body breaking down and noticeably lighter....what does that spell????
Jason Giambi??? "
What other conclusion could one draw from that?
Hafner very well could have been using the juice, but to me, at this time, there is far to little evidence to even make the assumption or accusation, imo. I guess I am just in the boat of I wouldn't say one way or the other on it. I don't find it fair either way.
And appology accepted. I appologize for my jabs as well. It's a message board, so I don't take them to heart. As I am sure you don't either.
-
First off, I don't put any stock in typos. Hell, I misspelled my own screen-name in an earlier reply. I just had no idea what you meant by OBS. I disagree with you about the value of OPS (and think it's not remotely similar to QB rating) but I do apologize for suggesting that you don't know anything. I've been trying to build this board for nearly a decade in various formats (btw, I'm in my 30's and you're still not allowed on my lawn) and a dissenting voice is welcome.
I will take exception with this comment of yours:
That's simply not true and I'm curious as to how you came to that conclusion. It certainly didn't happen in this thread and I'd like for you to back that up, if at all possible.
BTW, the greatest evidence that Hafner didn't use roids is his 2006 season, when testing was first implemented. We disagree about the strength of it compared to his 2007 season, but it's evidence enough for me (with my fanboy hat placed firmly atop my head) that Pronk was clean.
Beanpot
I came to that conclusion by your first post in this thread. You said the following:
"Let's see?? Body breaking down and noticeably lighter....what does that spell????
Jason Giambi??? "
What other conclusion could one draw from that?
Hafner very well could have been using the juice, but to me, at this time, there is far to little evidence to even make the assumption or accusation, imo. I guess I am just in the boat of I wouldn't say one way or the other on it. I don't find it fair either way.
And appology accepted. I appologize for my jabs as well. It's a message board, so I don't take them to heart. As I am sure you don't either.
Masters said:
I came to that conclusion by your first post in this thread. You said the following:"Let's see?? Body breaking down and noticeably lighter....what does that spell????
Jason Giambi??? "
What other conclusion could one draw from that?
I said that.
-
First off, I don't put any stock in typos. Hell, I misspelled my own screen-name in an earlier reply. I just had no idea what you meant by OBS. I disagree with you about the value of OPS (and think it's not remotely similar to QB rating) but I do apologize for suggesting that you don't know anything. I've been trying to build this board for nearly a decade in various formats (btw, I'm in my 30's and you're still not allowed on my lawn) and a dissenting voice is welcome.
I will take exception with this comment of yours:
That's simply not true and I'm curious as to how you came to that conclusion. It certainly didn't happen in this thread and I'd like for you to back that up, if at all possible.
BTW, the greatest evidence that Hafner didn't use roids is his 2006 season, when testing was first implemented. We disagree about the strength of it compared to his 2007 season, but it's evidence enough for me (with my fanboy hat placed firmly atop my head) that Pronk was clean.
Beanpot
I came to that conclusion by your first post in this thread. You said the following:
"Let's see?? Body breaking down and noticeably lighter....what does that spell????
Jason Giambi??? "
What other conclusion could one draw from that?
Hafner very well could have been using the juice, but to me, at this time, there is far to little evidence to even make the assumption or accusation, imo. I guess I am just in the boat of I wouldn't say one way or the other on it. I don't find it fair either way.
And appology accepted. I appologize for my jabs as well. It's a message board, so I don't take them to heart. As I am sure you don't either.
Masters said:
I came to that conclusion by your first post in this thread. You said the following:"Let's see?? Body breaking down and noticeably lighter....what does that spell????
Jason Giambi??? "
What other conclusion could one draw from that?
You could have come to the conclusion that you confused me with another poster, as Peen explains above. In fact, that may be the source of much of this debate, at least on my end.
And appology accepted. I appologize for my jabs as well. It's a message board, so I don't take them to heart. As I am sure you don't either.
No need to apologize for jabs, I enjoy the back and forth.
Beanpot
-
Beanpot, Beenpot, Peenpot.....something like that.
This has been a fun thread to read!!
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login