Untouchable?
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I believe it cannot be as cut and dried as they do or don't get amnesty. If you take a first year coach and stick him in a "good situation" I would expect to see decent performance and improvement. If you send the same coach to a team that is full of rookies and offensively largely devoid of talent I would expect ups and downs. Further to that if that coach had to run the team for more than half the season with the 3rd string QB, practice squad running backs and one receiver worth a shit I would NOT expect to see improvement.
On the offensive side of the ball we did practically nothing to improve the talent on this team in 2013. The "genius" trade for Bess was a total flop as he was apparently more involved in tweeting pics smoking weed as opposed to catching footballs. Regardless of how it's spun this team was all about assessing the existing offense in 2013 for better or worse and moving forward from there. They as much as said so in the preseason. When it became quickly apparent Weeden was a complete failure all expectations from the FO should have been tempered with reality. For a brief few games we got a glimpse of our potential with Hoyer at the helm. Sure it is a small data set but given good QB play we were dominant. The defense played their ass off because they were sparked by the offense. Those few games alone should have given Chud a year two to prove his system with the incredible influx of talent the 2014 draft SHOULD net us.
Even with mostly sub par QB's we managed to have the league leading receiver in yardage even with a two game suspension. We ranked 11th in passing TD's and tied for 4th in passing TD's over 40 yards. Our rushing performance was just as abysmal as the talent carrying the ball. Overall though there were times at least of excitement in the passing game and glimmers of future hope any time Weeden wasn't on the field. The passing piece of the offense did show improvement over 2012 at least in my opinion. If we would have had any kind of running attack at all it likely would have opened the passing game further and also our total points scored might have climbed if we had rushed for more than 4 TD's. I know statistics are just that but it was progress.
Defensively while I bought into the early hype statistically we either regressed or stayed par in most categories. Points per game increased from 23 to 25ish. After investing heavily in Horton and D players our sacks only increased from 38 to 40. Interceptions dropped by 3 from 17 to 14. Our run defense which everyone thought was spectacular? 111 ypg for 13 TD's last year vs 118 ypg and 14 TDs this year.
Given the fact we invested most of our draft and free agency in defensive players for the "aggressive" 3/4 Horton defense who really failed as a coach this year? If I had to pick a scapegoat (and most teams would) it is Horton I would have sent packing. The aggressive shock and awe type defense we were told we would see was a crock of shit. Never happened.
I could be completely wrong but as a fan (a season ticket paying fan at that) I have the right to my opinion. My opinion is that egos got in the way here and fucked us with yet ANOTHER redo.
Regarding the insubordination crap.... if it was 100% true and he was that insubordinate they would have fired him then. I don't like Little at all BUT the day in day out decisions of who starts, who's benched and who is cut it supposed to be that of the coach. I don't want us to be like Oakland of old and Dallas and Jerry for gods sake. Let the coach run the team. As I have said in other threads - "Jimmy if you believe wholeheartedly that Chud is the wrong buy and could not possible move us forward you are obligated to fire Banner as well. It was his most important act as the new president and you are both saying he failed."
Do any of you truly believe someone like McDaniels or Whisenhunt would have shown a vastly different results in wins and losses given the current talent????
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jcam,
I think I agree with most of what you said in reference to statistics. I think a lot of what you're citing, though, can be traced back to the emphasis on passing and de-emphasis on running that was Chud's whole baby. That resulted in better passing/receiving totals and worse rushing totals. They simply passed more and ran less than the previous regime. Because everyone is so in love with the idea of passing, people were convinced it would work or that it did work. All it really did was make the offense ineffective in a different way. The team couldn't score on the ground and couldn't hold onto a lead late in the game. A lot of people want to blame the defense for this, but I think it was more a matter of the defense being on the field too much. I saw too many three-and-outs with three incomplete passes late in the game with the team ahead than I care to see. The offense wasn't any better, it just looked different in a way that appeals to people who like to watch passing. It didn't win any more games because it was weak when it came to sustaining a lead.
Do I believe McDaniels or Wisenhunt would have had vastly different results? I'm not sure. But let's say they didn't. Personally, I wouldn't ask for "vastly" different results, I'd ask to see some small sign of improvement. And if McDaniels and Wisenhunt couldn't provide that, I'd have suggested that they be fired too. I don't think it was absolutely impossible for any coach in the world to have shown any signs of improvement at all. Another couple of wins, a sustainable offense, the ability to come from behind now and then, the ability to hold a lead, anything. Chud threw the ball more times and that resulted in higher passing/receiving totals and lower rushing totals. That's not "improvement" enough, in my book.
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Lol, all of the sudden everyone agrees with me. Come on, disagree-ers, I know you're out there. I saw where some of you said a HC should never be fired after just one year. Tell us how you think it should go.
Tell us how you think it should go.
Please go away...
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Lol, you're right. Offering to listen to your position instead of just arguing my side and not listening to yours is pretty annoying.
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8 halftime leads, and 2 halftime ties... yet only 4 wins. Halftime adjustments??
5 blown 4th quarter leads... If Horton was calling prevent, get in his face and tell him to blitz!!
Losing 7 consecutive games to end the season... Ouch, especially the way they lost some of them...
1-8 on the road... Way to be prepared...
Untouchable??? Not quite...
I feel bad for Chud, I really do, and I feel terrible for our team's lack of continuity. Having said that, I guess I'm ready for the next guy...
8 halftime leads, and 2 halftime ties... yet only 4 wins. Halftime adjustments??
5 blown 4th quarter leads... If Horton was calling prevent, get in his face and tell him to blitz!!
Losing 7 consecutive games to end the season... Ouch, especially the way they lost some of them...
1-8 on the road... Way to be prepared...
Untouchable??? Not quite...
I feel bad for Chud, I really do, and I feel terrible for our team's lack of continuity. Having said that, I guess I'm ready for the next guy...
I don't feel bad because you nailed it "halftime adjustments". Not only that, but I never saw new and interesting play calls. It was always predictable or idiotic play calls, watch bess run a fucking 3 yd drag route only to have the QB over/under throw him... no wonder we had so many drops as a team. We threw the ball 50+ times a game and never even attempted to be a tough physical football team by running the ball down an opponents throat. Chud was a pud and this team was in too many games to finish 4-12...6-10 at worst. The Jax, NE, and Chicago games sealed his fate
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Little got demoted and the #3 receiver that replaced him ended up being worse.No. They shouldn't be. If they told chud to cut little and he didn't that's on him. If your boss told you to do something and you failed to do it, that's insubordination and that will get you fired.
If that is remotely true Lombardi should be fired for the 6th time.
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8 halftime leads, and 2 halftime ties... yet only 4 wins. Halftime adjustments??
5 blown 4th quarter leads... If Horton was calling prevent, get in his face and tell him to blitz!!
Losing 7 consecutive games to end the season... Ouch, especially the way they lost some of them...
1-8 on the road... Way to be prepared...
Untouchable??? Not quite...
I feel bad for Chud, I really do, and I feel terrible for our team's lack of continuity. Having said that, I guess I'm ready for the next guy...
I don't feel bad because you nailed it "halftime adjustments". Not only that, but I never saw new and interesting play calls. It was always predictable or idiotic play calls, watch bess run a fucking 3 yd drag route only to have the QB over/under throw him... no wonder we had so many drops as a team. We threw the ball 50+ times a game and never even attempted to be a tough physical football team by running the ball down an opponents throat. Chud was a pud and this team was in too many games to finish 4-12...6-10 at worst. The Jax, NE, and Chicago games sealed his fate
I don't feel bad because you nailed it "halftime adjustments". Not only that, but I never saw new and interesting play calls. It was always predictable or idiotic play calls, watch bess run a fucking 3 yd drag route only to have the QB over/under throw him... no wonder we had so many drops as a team. We threw the ball 50+ times a game and never even attempted to be a tough physical football team by running the ball down an opponents throat. Chud was a pud and this team was in too many games to finish 4-12...6-10 at worst. The Jax, NE, and Chicago games sealed his fate
Another stat... #1 in the NFL in "most pass attempts" thrown. With Campbell/Weeden/Hoyer... WTF was that?
Between weeks, did we ever focus on blocking for our running backs? Seems to me we just kept trying to bring new RBs in and hoping they broke loose. Plus, I only saw Pinkston playing in "fill-in" roles despite "looking" like the best G on our team when he was in...
A lot of questions about the coaching and playcalling, especially on offense, which was supposed to be Chud's "specialty"
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That's not chuds call to make. I can't pick and choose what jobs I want to do at work and he can't either.
But assuming your boss hired you because he thinks you know what you are doing....
WSS
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That's not chuds call to make. I can't pick and choose what jobs I want to do at work and he can't either.
But assuming your boss hired you because he thinks you know what you are doing....
WSS
But assuming your boss hired you because he thinks you know what you are doing....
WSS
Perhaps it became clear he didn't know what he was doing. A billion dollar business where the entire public is calling for your head when you fail is no place for a bumbler to get on the job training
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People (both people on the boards and media folks) keep asking, "Well, what guarantee does the next guy have that this won't happen to him?" He doesn't. SHOULD he? Why does everyone act like it is so unbelievable that the FO won't guarantee that a coach gets to keep his job after the first season even if he sucks? That seems crazy to me. Now, if the FO was like, "Either come in and win the AFC in 2014 or get out!" then yeah, that's too much to ask. But is it too much to ask that the coach who gets hired comes in and makes ANY improvement at all over the course of a season? Everyone is like, "Why would any coach agree to that?!" What does that mean? Does every potential coach in the league have the right to demand a consequence-free first year?
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But assuming your boss hired you because he thinks you know what you are doing....
WSS
Perhaps it became clear he didn't know what he was doing. A billion dollar business where the entire public is calling for your head when you fail is no place for a bumbler to get on the job training
Perhaps it became clear he didn't know what he was doing. A billion dollar business where the entire public is calling for your head when you fail is no place for a bumbler to get on the job training
Well that is certainly a possibility. It would seem to me that with an established and professional offensive and defensive coordinator your coaching staff should be able to scrape together an idea who should start and who shouldn't. Especially more than a dickhead and a two bit chisler like Lombardi and Banner.
Further remember whose job it was to hire these three coaches. So if somebody doesn't know shit from shinola about it maybe it's them.
WSS
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And wasn't it banner, the guy who knows everything about coaching, who ran Andy Reid out of town?
WSS
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And wasn't it banner, the guy who knows everything about coaching, who ran Andy Reid out of town?
WSS
And wasn't it banner, the guy who knows everything about coaching, who ran Andy Reid out of town?
WSS
Banner wasn't there when they fired Andy Reid, think that was the owner's move.
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For the record, I didn't know who the fuck Rob Chudzinski was when we hired him....I vaguely recollected the name then someone said he used to be our o coordinator. Fine, didn't like the hiring cause I"m like can't we get someone here with a proven track record? Well apparently we couldn't. Fuck, we were talking to a CFL guy before we talked to Chud. "BUT"...we fucking hired Chud and he did bring in Turner and Horton. Every last single fucking person here knew that this was going to be a rebuild. We wanted to toss out the Shurm years and start over. Fine. I saw some of things that were being done and I knew from the start that this was going to be a painful year. Than Weeden went down and Hoyer came in....now there seemed to be a glimmer of hope that maybe we could actually win the division with the rest of the teams struggling. Hoyer went down, it wasn't to be. Still too many holes left over from the Shurm era. These things can't be fixed in a year. They just can't. Whether you fuckers like Chuds or not is beside the point...the "optics" of firing yet another coach after such an appalingly short tenure will be DEVESTATING to this franchise. If anything we needed to give Chud time just to tell the rest of the league we're done selling coaches down the road after 2 years. God if it had lasted 2 years that would have been better than this and even 2 years is terrible. This is such a disaster that I think very few of you realize. If this was the only guy we'd let go after a short time it woudl be one thing...we could get away with it. We can't get away with this. The only reason to fire Chud at this point in time was if on monday they announced their new HC that was onboard before the firing. That was the only way this was remotely acceptable. Get ready for a humiliating offseason kids. If you thought Chip made our FO look like assholes last year just wait. McDaniels? Leave NE where he's being groomed to take over for Belichick? Leave to come to CLeveland where even his mentor flailed about? You better beleive that Belichick told him if you want to go that's fine, but don't even think about going to that place.
Oh and with Horton being gone a virtual certainty you can kiss goodbye whatever good things we did on defense this year. Just as an example, if were to say get that DC from Seattle....a good part of our front 7 doesn't fit what he likes to do even though they run 3-4 personnel. Sheard and Kruger are out for sure...Mingo "might" stay as he fits more what they like to do with their OLB's. Next year WILL be a rebuild and we'll be lucky if we win 4 games.
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So, ClevFan, if I understand your post correctly, you don't think Chud should have been expected to do anything this year? It should have been a free year and a free paycheck for him? No need to do anything at all?
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So, ClevFan, if I understand your post correctly, you don't think Chud should have been expected to do anything this year? It should have been a free year and a free paycheck for him? No need to do anything at all?
So, ClevFan, if I understand your post correctly, you don't think Chud should have been expected to do anything this year? It should have been a free year and a free paycheck for him? No need to do anything at all?
There was nothing that could have been done this year under any coach. Fucking Vince Lombardi could have come out of his grave and maybe gotten us 1-2 extra wins. I'm dead fucking serious. The time to evaluate this team and the coaches under a more intense microscope would have been the next few years when they would have gotten all their pieces together. It takes time in the NFL to build a team. Now we're gonna beg one fgt after another this offseason to come here. On the field we weren't the worst team in this league by far this year, yet we are the laughing stock....and it's gonna get worse this offseason.
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I'm not sure that I agree. When I think of the difference between a "good coach" and a "bad coach", I think that the "good coach" can do a better job with the same personnel as the "bad coach". Getting the team to perform better AFTER you've gotten better players doesn't necessarily signal to me that you're a better coach than the last guy (it just signals that you have better players than he had).
The Browns blew a number of leads late in the game this year. That, I think, is at least partially a coaching issue. Like has been said, there were teams with less talent who did better. Plus, if I recall correctly, Banner and Haslam didn't specifically mention more wins (or at least not too often). What they seemed to me to be saying was that they didn't see improvement. There could have been improvement (or the appearance of the potential for improvement) without additional wins.
Now, I'll state it again to be clear: I think Chud did get the shaft from the FO in a way, but not because he just automatically deserved another year or because he showed any improvement. I think he got the shaft because I think the FO gave him the impression that it was okay to not improve until after the draft and then they crucified him for it. Haslam says that he said before the season started that they needed to seem improvement between the first three games and the last three games, and I believe he did say that. However, to me, the Browns FO gave the distinct impression during the season that they didn't really expect anything at all until the 2014 Draft. Then, suddenly, at the end of the season, they went back to saying they had expected to see improvement.
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People (both people on the boards and media folks) keep asking, "Well, what guarantee does the next guy have that this won't happen to him?" He doesn't. SHOULD he? Why does everyone act like it is so unbelievable that the FO won't guarantee that a coach gets to keep his job after the first season even if he sucks? That seems crazy to me. Now, if the FO was like, "Either come in and win the AFC in 2014 or get out!" then yeah, that's too much to ask. But is it too much to ask that the coach who gets hired comes in and makes ANY improvement at all over the course of a season? Everyone is like, "Why would any coach agree to that?!" What does that mean? Does every potential coach in the league have the right to demand a consequence-free first year?
People (both people on the boards and media folks) keep asking, "Well, what guarantee does the next guy have that this won't happen to him?" He doesn't. SHOULD he? Why does everyone act like it is so unbelievable that the FO won't guarantee that a coach gets to keep his job after the first season even if he sucks? That seems crazy to me. Now, if the FO was like, "Either come in and win the AFC in 2014 or get out!" then yeah, that's too much to ask. But is it too much to ask that the coach who gets hired comes in and makes ANY improvement at all over the course of a season? Everyone is like, "Why would any coach agree to that?!" What does that mean? Does every potential coach in the league have the right to demand a consequence-free first year?
1) You're basing your view that Chud sucked as a coach on the teams record. There's so many variables to this it's not worth getting into. But if you don't intrinsically understand this than you don't understand football. Again, if we had a name like Gruden or Cowher waiting on board this firing makes sense. Seeing as we don't, seeing as we're going to begging CFL fgts to come coach this team....this firing makes "zero" sense.
2) The next coach absolutely should have a gurantee he lasts at least 3 years barring some kind of kiddie porn disclosure or something like making foot fetish video's (wait)....anyway, barring some kind of Sandusky'ing around, he should get 3 years to build the team he wants. If you think the Cleveland Browns can tell someone like Gruden, for one, that he has to play a 3-4 cause that's the personnel we got....you think he's gonna come here? You're high
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1). You're assuming I'm basing my view on Chud on the win-loss record. You know what they say about assuming; and you're wrong. I'm basing it on play-calling, personnel decisions, and the fact that I didn't see how the team improved at all.
2). I just disagree. And I don't think we're going to resolve this one. I don't think someone should get 3 years of guaranteed paychecks with no guarantee or indication of results. I just don't. Gruden isn't coming, regardless. I think you're assuming that whomever this hypothetical guy is, he'll definitely be able to improve things if he's given that three years. But what if he's not? 3 years is a LOT of time and money invested to get no return at all. Not every guy in football is going to be able to do what needs to be done to improve a team like the Browns. In order to figure out whether or not you've got the guy who can do it, you've got to check in and see if he's making progress. You and I disagree on when that "checking in" needs to be made. I think 3 years (or even 2 years) is too large of an investment to still have the potential for getting nothing back.
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