The Greatest QB in History. You Decide

[nickers]

I think its really hard to call one man the greatest as much as the game changes..Id prefer to say "greatest per era" makes more sense.

[The Cysko Kid]

@the-gipper said:

Tom Brady< vs. Jack Kemp

Joe Montana «vs. Bob Waterfied

John Elway«vs. Arnie Herber

Otto Graham «vs. Ed Danowski

Peyton «vs. Joe Namath

Terry Bradshaw «vs. George Blanda

Bart Starr vs. »Warren Moon

Sid Luckman vs.» Dan Fouts

Brett Favre« vs. Bernie Kosar

Sammy Baugh vs. »Jim McMahon

Dan Marino« vs. Bobby Layne

Troy Aikman« vs. Tommy Thompson

Steve Young« vs. Daryl Lamonica

Jim Kelly« vs. Brad Johnson

John Unitas« vs. Doug Williams

Roger Staubach« vs. Steve McNair

Norm Van Brocklin« vs. Mark Rypien

Frank Ryan vs. »Donovan McNabb

Eli Manning« vs. Trent Dilfer

Len Dawson «vs. Jake Delhomme

Aaron Rodgers« vs. Craig Morton

Fran Tarkenton« vs. Danny White

Ben Roethlisberger« vs. Earl Morrall

Bob Griese «vs. Jeff Hostetler

Phil Simms «vs. Phil Rivers

Kurt Warner« vs. Ron Jaworski

Joe Flacco« vs. Boomer Esiason

Ken Stabler« vs. Tony Eason

Joe Theisman« vs. Jim Plunkett

Tobin Rote vs. »Y.A. Tittle

Kerry Collins «vs. Neil O'Donnell

Randall Cunningham« vs. Don Meredith

[miktoxic]

greatest QB in my time, brian fucking sipe!

(cheers WSS!)

[The Gipper]

Sorry guys, but Sipe didn't make the 64 man cut. Start with the fact that he never QBd a team to a playoff victory in his career. For the Browns, at least that means he didn't match up with Otto Graham, Frank Ryan, Bill Nelsen, Bernie Kosar, and even Vinny Testaverde. Beyond that here is where he ranks in certain statistical categories all time:

Completions: 68th

Yards: 75th

TDs: 75th

Passer rating: 117th

YPG: 64th

Y/Att.: 106th

Comp. %: 105

Int. %: 142

TD%: 75th

Game winning drives: 34th

Comebacks: 38th

Those last two help, but don't put him into the round of 64.

[The Gipper]

@the-gipper said:

Here is your chance to choose the "Greatest QB in history"....but I am going to do it like the NCAA basketball tournament. I am going to list 64 of the best QBs in history and match them against each other. We will have 32 matches in the first round, then 16, then 8, 4, 2, 1. And go from there.

Here are the initial matchups. Simply highlight which QB you think wins the match. After so many votes are cast, I will then declare winners and then announce the 2 round matchups:

Winners from Round 1:

Tom Brady vs. Jack Kemp

Joe Montana vs. Bob Waterfied

John Elway vs. Arnie Herber

Otto Graham vs. Ed Danowski

Peyton vs. Joe Namath

Terry Bradshaw vs. George Blanda

Bart Starr vs. Warren Moon

Sid Luckman vs. Dan Fouts

Brett Favre vs. Bernie Kosar

Sammy Baugh vs. Jim McMahon

Dan Marino vs. Bobby Layne

Troy Aikman vs. Tommy Thompson

Steve Young vs. Daryl Lamonica

Jim Kelly vs. Brad Johnson

John Unitas vs. Doug Williams

Roger Staubach vs. Steve McNair

Norm Van Brocklin vs. Mark Rypien

Frank Ryan vs. Donovan McNabb

Eli Manning vs. Trent Dilfer

Len Dawson vs. Jake Delhomme

Aaron Rodgers vs. Craig Morton

Fran Tarkenton vs. Danny White

Ben Roethlisberger vs. Earl Morrall

Bob Griese vs. Jeff Hostetler

Phil Simms vs. Phil Rivers

Kurt Warner vs. Ron Jaworski

Joe Flacco vs. Boomer Esiason

Ken Stabler vs. Tony Eason

Joe Theisman vs. Jim Plunkett

Tobin Rote vs. Y.A. Tittle

Kerry Collins vs. Neil O'Donnell

Randall Cunningham vs. Don Meredith

[Zombo]

@the-gipper said:

Sorry guys, but Sipe didn't make the 64 man cut. Start with the fact that he never QBd a team to a playoff victory in his career. For the Browns, at least that means he didn't match up with Otto Graham, Frank Ryan, Bill Nelsen, Bernie Kosar, and even Vinny Testaverde. Beyond that here is where he ranks in certain statistical categories all time:

Completions: 68th

Yards: 75th

TDs: 75th

Passer rating: 117th

YPG: 64th

Y/Att.: 106th

Comp. %: 105

Int. %: 142

TD%: 75th

Game winning drives: 34th

Comebacks: 38th

Those last two help, but don't put him into the round of 64.

Game winning drives: 34th

Comebacks: 38th

That's why Browns fans love him. And that's why they are intrigued by Hoyer, who got us into a jam against Minnesota on the road, and then pulled us out. ( And then delivered the biggest win of our season the next week.)

Everyone loves gunslingers and leaders, and he was both.

No, he probably doesn't belong in your tournament, but he's in our Final Four and in our hearts forever.

And when the NFL MVP Club meets, Ryan, Nelson, Kosar and Testeverde just don't have the credentials to get in.

Zombo

[The Gipper]

Here we go with the Round of 32 matchups. Cast your vote for the better QB from these pairings:

Tom Brady...or...Donovan McNabb

Joe Montana...or...Randall Cunningham

John Elway...or...Boomer Esiason

Otto Graham...or...Kerry Collins

Peyton Manning...or...Joe Theisman

Terry Bradshaw...or...Phil Simms

Bart Starr...or...Bob Griese

Brett Favre...or...Ken Stabler

Sid Luckman...or...Kurt Warner

Sammy Baugh...or...Ben Roethlisberger

Dan Marino...or...Fran Tarkenton

Troy Aikman...or...Eli Manning

Steve Young...or...Aaron Rodgers

Jim Kelly...or...Len Dawson

John Unitas...or...Norm Van Brocklin

Roger Staubach...or Y.A. Tittle

[The Cysko Kid]

I know we hate the ravens but I do believe flacco has eclipsed boomer

[The Cysko Kid]

@the-gipper said:

Here we go with the Round of 32 matchups. Cast your vote for the better QB from these pairings:

Tom Brady w...or...Donovan McNabb

Joe Montana w...or...Randall Cunningham

John Elway w...or...Boomer Esiason

Otto Graham w...or...Kerry Collins

Peyton Manning w...or...Joe Theisman

Terry Bradshaw w...or...Phil Simms

Bart Starr w...or...Bob Griese

Brett Favre w...or...Ken Stabler

Sid Luckman...or... W Kurt Warner

Sammy Baugh...or... W ben Roethlisberger

Dan Marino w...or...Fran Tarkenton

Troy Aikman w...or...Eli Manning

Steve Young w...or...Aaron Rodgers toughest choice

Jim Kelly w...or...Len Dawson

John Unitas w...or...Norm Van Brocklin

Roger Staubach w...or Y.A. Tittle

[The Gipper]

Zombo said:

That's why Browns fans love him. And that's why they are intrigued by Hoyer, who got us into a jam against Minnesota on the road, and then pulled us out. ( And then delivered the biggest win of our season the next week.)

Everyone loves gunslingers and leaders, and he was both.

No, he probably doesn't belong in your tournament, but he's in our Final Four and in our hearts forever.

And when the NFL MVP Club meets, Ryan, Nelson, Kosar and Testeverde just don't have the credentials to get in.

Zombo

Fair enough. Note this though: there were several guys that ranked very very high in some of those passing stat categories that I did not include in this tournament. Guys like Vinny, Drew Bledsoe, Dave Kreig, Carson Palmer, Steve DeBerg, Jim Everett. Some of them ranked as high as Top Ten or 20 in some stat areas.

But I will be honest with you: I did make two now glaring errors to me when compiling this field of 64 by leaving off Sonny Jurgenson and Drew Brees. Those two should have been on the list over 10 or 12 guys that I did put on there. But I don't think I can fix it now.

[The Gipper]

@the-cysko-kid said:

I know we hate the ravens but I do believe flacco has eclipsed boomer

Maybe, but the votes did not go that way. I think Ryan is better than McNabb, but that lost too.

[Dste Ace]

@the-gipper said:

Here we go with the Round of 32 matchups. Cast your vote for the better QB from these pairings:

Tom Brady...or...Donovan McNabb

Joe Montana...or...Randall Cunningham

John Elway...or...Boomer Esiason

Otto Graham...or...Kerry Collins

Peyton Manning...or...Joe Theisman

Terry Bradshaw...or...Phil Simms

Bart Starr...or...Bob Griese

Brett Favre...or...Ken Stabler

Sid Luckman...or...Kurt Warner

Sammy Baugh...or...Ben Roethlisberger

Dan Marino...or...Fran Tarkenton

Troy Aikman...or...Eli Manning

Steve Young...or...Aaron Rodgers

Jim Kelly...or...Len Dawson

John Unitas...or...Norm Van Brocklin

Roger Staubach...or Y.A. Tittle

[Remarker]

This link 'Cold Hard Football Facts' is to an old (2008) article titled "The definitive list: Top 10 NFL quarterbacks".

I was recently on the Cold Hard Football Facts site looking for a comprehensive article for explaining the need for balance in football teams as opposed to thinking 'defenses wins games', so I thought I would check to see what those guys had to say. The above link is what I found.

Whereas the GOAT NFL QB is somewhat subjective (in the eyes of the beholder) the CHFF guys put numbers to the QBs to came up with their view.

I don't necessarily agree with them because I have strong biases against some in the list but I think you guys will like what's said about their their #4 GOAT.

Article excerpt:

4. OTTO GRAHAM (Cleveland 1946-55)

Best NFL season (1953): 167 for 258 (64.7%), 2,722 yards, 10.6 YPA, 11 TD, 9 INT, 99.7 passer rating

Career (includes AAFC career): 1,464 for 2,626 (55.8%), 23,584 yards, 9.0 YPA, 174 TD, 135 INT, 86.6 passer rating

Championships: AAFC 1946-49; NFL 1950, 1954, 1955

Overview: Otto Graham was Tom Brady before Tom Brady, putting up gaudy numbers for his time while winning games and championships at an unprecedented rate. He led the Browns to a championship in all four years of the AAFC's existence (1946-49). But he and the Browns proved they belonged in the big leagues by capturing the NFL title in their first year in the league.

In fact, they'd go on to set a record that still stands, appearing in six straight NFL championship games from 1950 to 1955, winning three of them. Bottom line: Graham played in a pro football championship game every single season of his 10-year career, winning seven of them in two different leagues.

He also set passing marks that stood for decades. His 86.6 passer rating, for example, is the top mark of the pre-Live Ball Era. And his career 9.0 YPA is No. 1 by a sizable margin.

So why, then, isn't Graham higher on the list?

His four years in the AAFC make for some awkward comparisons. There's every reason to believe the Browns would have been a dominant NFL team over those four years, but little reason to believe they would have won four straight championships. Graham's numbers also declined pretty noticeably when he went to the NFL, from simply unbelievable to merely spectacular. His career 9.0 YPA average, for example, drops to 8.63 if we look only at his NFL numbers. Of course, that 8.63 YPA mark is the best in NFL history, too.

The full measure of Graham's impact is this: the organization has never recovered from his departure at the end of the 1955 season. Sure, they remained competitive through the Jim Brown years (1957-65), winning a championship in 1964.

But that's the only championship the organization won since Graham last took a snap for the Browns.

[Zombo]

Tom Brady...or...Donovan McNabb

Joe Montana...or...Randall Cunningham

John Elway...or...Boomer Esiason

Otto Graham...or...Kerry Collins

Peyton Manning...or...Joe Theisman

Terry Bradshaw...or...Phil Simms

Bart Starr...or...Bob Griese

Brett Favre...or...Ken Stabler

Sid Luckman...or...Kurt Warner

Sammy Baugh...or...Ben Roethlisberger

Dan Marino...or...Fran Tarkenton

Troy Aikman...or...Eli Manning

Steve Young...or...Aaron Rodgers

Jim Kelly...or...Len Dawson

John Unitas...or...Norm Van Brocklin

Roger Staubach...or Y.A. Tittle

Kelly/Dawson and Starr/Griese were the tough choices.

[The Gipper]

@remarker said:

This link 'Cold Hard Football Facts' is to an old (2008) article titled "The definitive list: Top 10 NFL quarterbacks".

I was recently on the Cold Hard Football Facts site looking for a comprehensive article for explaining the need for balance in football teams as opposed to thinking 'defenses wins games', so I thought I would check to see what those guys had to say. The above link is what I found.

Whereas the GOAT NFL QB is somewhat subjective (in the eyes of the beholder) the CHFF guys put numbers to the QBs to came up with their view.

I don't necessarily agree with them because I have strong biases against some in the list but I think you guys will like what's said about their their #4 GOAT.

Article excerpt:

4. OTTO GRAHAM (Cleveland 1946-55)

Best NFL season (1953): 167 for 258 (64.7%), 2,722 yards, 10.6 YPA, 11 TD, 9 INT, 99.7 passer rating

Career (includes AAFC career): 1,464 for 2,626 (55.8%), 23,584 yards, 9.0 YPA, 174 TD, 135 INT, 86.6 passer rating

Championships: AAFC 1946-49; NFL 1950, 1954, 1955

Overview: Otto Graham was Tom Brady before Tom Brady, putting up gaudy numbers for his time while winning games and championships at an unprecedented rate. He led the Browns to a championship in all four years of the AAFC's existence (1946-49). But he and the Browns proved they belonged in the big leagues by capturing the NFL title in their first year in the league.

In fact, they'd go on to set a record that still stands, appearing in six straight NFL championship games from 1950 to 1955, winning three of them. Bottom line: Graham played in a pro football championship game every single season of his 10-year career, winning seven of them in two different leagues.

He also set passing marks that stood for decades. His 86.6 passer rating, for example, is the top mark of the pre-Live Ball Era. And his career 9.0 YPA is No. 1 by a sizable margin.

So why, then, isn't Graham higher on the list?

His four years in the AAFC make for some awkward comparisons. There's every reason to believe the Browns would have been a dominant NFL team over those four years, but little reason to believe they would have won four straight championships. Graham's numbers also declined pretty noticeably when he went to the NFL, from simply unbelievable to merely spectacular. His career 9.0 YPA average, for example, drops to 8.63 if we look only at his NFL numbers. Of course, that 8.63 YPA mark is the best in NFL history, too.

The full measure of Graham's impact is this: the organization has never recovered from his departure at the end of the 1955 season. Sure, they remained competitive through the Jim Brown years (1957-65), winning a championship in 1964.

But that's the only championship the organization won since Graham last took a snap for the Browns.

Wonderful. Where are your votes? You can talk about him all you want...and that is all good talk, but he won't advance in this contest unless you vote for him.

Edit: I also think the same situation can be said for any number of other franchises...one great star brought them titles.

Look at New England. Had a couple of shots at the apple but no one ever matched Brady for what that team did.

Same with the Broncos and Elway. The Vikings haven't made it since Tarkenton. Dawson and the Chiefs. Where have the Jets been since Namath.

[The Gipper]

Zombo said:

Tom Brady...or...Donovan McNabb

Joe Montana...or...Randall Cunningham

John Elway...or...Boomer Esiason

Otto Graham...or...Kerry Collins

Peyton Manning...or...Joe Theisman

Terry Bradshaw...or...Phil Simms

Bart Starr...or...Bob Griese

Brett Favre...or...Ken Stabler

Sid Luckman...or...Kurt Warner

Sammy Baugh...or...Ben Roethlisberger

Dan Marino...or...Fran Tarkenton

Troy Aikman...or...Eli Manning

Steve Young...or...Aaron Rodgers

Jim Kelly...or...Len Dawson

John Unitas...or...Norm Van Brocklin

Roger Staubach...or Y.A. Tittle

Kelly/Dawson and Starr/Griese were the tough choices.

I think they will get tougher from here on out.

[The Gipper]

@the-gipper said:

Here we go with the Round of 32 matchups. Cast your vote for the better QB from these pairings:

My choices:

Tom Brady...or...Donovan McNabb

Joe Montana...or...Randall Cunningham

John Elway...or...Boomer Esiason

Otto Graham...or...Kerry Collins

Peyton Manning...or...Joe Theisman

Terry Bradshaw...or...Phil Simms

Bart Starr...or...Bob Griese

Brett Favre...or...Ken Stabler

Sid Luckman...or...Kurt Warner

Sammy Baugh...or...Ben Roethlisberger

Dan Marino...or...Fran Tarkenton

Troy Aikman...or...Eli Manning

Steve Young...or...Aaron Rodgers

Jim Kelly...or...Len Dawson

John Unitas...or...Norm Van Brocklin

Roger Staubach...or Y.A. Tittle

[Remarker]

@the-gipper said:

Wonderful. Where are your votes? You can talk about him all you want...and that is all good talk, but he won't advance in this contest unless you vote for him.

I don't know enough to vote. You guys know what you're talkin' 'bout.

[The Gipper]

@remarker said:

I don't know enough to vote. You guys know what you're talkin' 'bout.

OK, at least you are honest. But you are doing the right thing by reading stuff like what you quoted. Very good analysis.

[Thaak]

Tom Brady...or...Donovan McNabb

Joe Montana...or...Randall Cunningham

John Elway...or...Boomer Esiason

Otto Graham...or...Kerry Collins

Peyton Manning...or...Joe Theisman

Terry Bradshaw...or...Phil Simms

Bart Starr...or...Bob Griese

Brett Favre...or...Ken Stabler

Sid Luckman...or...Kurt Warner

Sammy Baugh...or...Ben Roethlisberger

Dan Marino...or...Fran Tarkenton

Troy Aikman...or...Eli Manning

Steve Young...or...Aaron Rodgers

Jim Kelly...or...Len Dawson

John Unitas...or...Norm Van Brocklin

Roger Staubach...or Y.A. Tittle