Reciever Situation is on GM Ray Farmer
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First to grade this draft from Farmer an F is beyond absurd. We loaded up on talent AND got an extra first round pick next year. Closer to an A than an F.
Secondly I would agree that no one is going to step in and replace Gordon's numbers. That includes any rookie that was available in the draft. There are a lot of ways to win football games and many of those ways don't require a super stud receiver. You may not like it but its a fact.
Lastly you have no idea how long Gordon is actually going to be suspended for. The longer it stretches out the more I start to think it wont be a year. If it is we deal with it. If he is you are going to see a lot of ground and pound along with some killer plays by Baby Hawk. We can still win.
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@everlastingxxx said:
I think the wide receiver core without Gordon is probably second worst in the league. You cant rely on Austin to play a full season. Armstrong is fools gold. I saw him last year in the Cowboys training camp. The guy looked like an all pro the first few weeks, then did nothing the rest of camp and was cut early. Hawkins is a nice 3rd or 4th WR but nothing more. Without Gordon its a scary position and was terribly neglected.
How was it terribly neglected? We signed four free agents, including two guys with tons of starting experience and slot receiver who is a definite upgrade.
Are you saying that we shouldnt have drafted Manziel or the guy that will block for Manziel? Because the cover corner was a no brainer.
I can only guess that you are saying we should have drafted a 1st round impact receiver for Hoyer instead of taking Manziel.
Z
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maybe all the experts/pundits who absolutely love JF as much as the biggest JF fanboys on this forum who gave the browns draft an A would persuade them to STFU already?
nothing is good enough for these people. amazing.
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@everlastingxxx said:
I think the wide receiver core without Gordon is probably second worst in the league. You cant rely on Austin to play a full season. Armstrong is fools gold. I saw him last year in the Cowboys training camp. The guy looked like an all pro the first few weeks, then did nothing the rest of camp and was cut early. Hawkins is a nice 3rd or 4th WR but nothing more. Without Gordon its a scary position and was terribly neglected.
How was it terribly neglected? We signed four free agents, including two guys with tons of starting experience and slot receiver who is a definite upgrade.
Are you saying that we shouldnt have drafted Manziel or the guy that will block for Manziel? Because the cover corner was a no brainer.
I can only guess that you are saying we should have drafted a 1st round impact receiver for Hoyer instead of taking Manziel.
Z
Zombo said:
How was it terribly neglected? We signed four free agents, including two guys with tons of starting experience and slot receiver who is a definite upgrade.
Are you saying that we shouldnt have drafted Manziel or the guy that will block for Manziel? Because the cover corner was a no brainer.
I can only guess that you are saying we should have drafted a 1st round impact receiver for Hoyer instead of taking Manziel.
Z
I said all along they should have drafted Watkins. I suppose a top CB and a first round pick next year is a fair trade off though. However- minus Gordon our wrs probably are some of the worst in the NFL- How many of them are a legit #2 on other teams? Certainly none of them are in #1 wr territory. Now you can posit great qb play and having all day to throw can offset some of that- as the Patriots do with their rag tags, but Hoyer isn't Tom Brady, and Manziel is a rookie.
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The F was not in relation to the entire draft, just the situation at WR. While I don't give the draft an A right now, it certainly has the potential to be one with the Buffalo trade, and the play of our selections (many of which will be starters really soon). I don't mean to bash Farmer or the FO because I can't imagine another group having done a better job. So I'll tip my cap to them as we head into summer camp, even though I am not happy about their efforts to proactively address the void at WR.
Indeed, I fully realize that it might be difficult to address all the areas of need in one draft. But have they not done that (except for WR)? It seems they populated a stable of quality RB's and DB's -that's excellent. ILB and QB is still a concern but they tried their best to address them in the draft. OG was clearly addressed in the draft. Slot R was addressed as Hawkins replaced Bess. But WR has gone from Gordon & Little to ? and ?. Sorry, but why should I be happy with that? I'm having visions of 11 men in the box (J/K) as we have no proven/healthy/unsuspended WR's. We all know that we need a balanced attack in order to consistently win in our division.
And yes, call me crazy, but I think with Gordon and a good #2 WR, combined with Hoyer's quick release and accurate pass, and with this defence, why shouldn't I project a playoff calibre team. For the first time in a while, I can really see some progress and potential.
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1 - I'm 99.100% sure Burleson was a starter last year in Detroit. He had 461 yards in the 8 games he played in. When healthy, he is more than capable of being a solid WR2, and a definite upgrade over Little.
2 - Austin in the last 5 years had 1,320/1,041/579/943/244, that's 3 years over-or-close-to 1,000 yds in the past 5. The two low years, he was hurt. He's only 29, and is taking his time with the Browns trainers getting healthy. He is capable of being a solid WR1, but if healthy is certainly a great WR2. A definite upgrade over Little.
3 - Hawkins... I'm not too sold on, but he seems to have great potential. Hell, if he can catch the ball he's a definite upgrade over Little.
Other than adding these 3 to upgrade over Little (who sucked) and Bess (who is crazy)... how exactly did the FO mess up this WR situation?
If anybody is responsible for our WR position being weaker than desirable it's JOSH GORDON. If he's on the field, and we have Gordon/Austin/Burleson/Hawkins and they are all healthy... that is a more-than-solid WR corp
#Justsayin' -
I think the Browns were as proactive as they could be addressing the WR situation, while still sticking to their draft plan. How many #1 receivers were out there in free agency? And even if they didn't draft one, the undrafted ones they got have some really nice college credentials. It's pretty evident their FO targeted specific undrafted guys and went out and got them.
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@everlastingxxx said:
I think the wide receiver core without Gordon is probably second worst in the league. You cant rely on Austin to play a full season. Armstrong is fools gold. I saw him last year in the Cowboys training camp. The guy looked like an all pro the first few weeks, then did nothing the rest of camp and was cut early. Hawkins is a nice 3rd or 4th WR but nothing more. Without Gordon its a scary position and was terribly neglected.
Well, with your extensive knowledge of the roster of every pro team....lets see your comprehensive ranking from 1-32 of the WR corps in the NFL....go on.
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I think this team has made it clear they expect to build from the basics up. Defense first, O-line second and a QB to act like more of a point guard than a needle threading play call changer. Get the ball. Hold with great D and keep it with a great O-line blocking for power runners who know how to catch screens as well. Don;t be surprised if they go for a RT first pick next year to bookend with Thomas.
I think this team has made it clear they expect to build from the basics up. Defense first, O-line second and a QB to act like more of a point guard than a needle threading play call changer. Get the ball. Hold with great D and keep it with a great O-line blocking for power runners who know how to catch screens as well. Don;t be surprised if they go for a RT first pick next year to bookend with Thomas.
If you are talking "point guard as a game manager, then I agree. But regardless I am not sure how you got to the underlined bit.
Changing the play, be it to a different run or a pass, is an important part of a running game when the D is stacked to stop the run whether to one side or altogether.
And if the audible is to a quick slant, which it often is, there are few routes that call for more of a needle threading.
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The F was not in relation to the entire draft, just the situation at WR. While I don't give the draft an A right now, it certainly has the potential to be one with the Buffalo trade, and the play of our selections (many of which will be starters really soon). I don't mean to bash Farmer or the FO because I can't imagine another group having done a better job. So I'll tip my cap to them as we head into summer camp, even though I am not happy about their efforts to proactively address the void at WR.
Indeed, I fully realize that it might be difficult to address all the areas of need in one draft. But have they not done that (except for WR)? It seems they populated a stable of quality RB's and DB's -that's excellent. ILB and QB is still a concern but they tried their best to address them in the draft. OG was clearly addressed in the draft. Slot R was addressed as Hawkins replaced Bess. But WR has gone from Gordon & Little to ? and ?. Sorry, but why should I be happy with that? I'm having visions of 11 men in the box (J/K) as we have no proven/healthy/unsuspended WR's. We all know that we need a balanced attack in order to consistently win in our division.
And yes, call me crazy, but I think with Gordon and a good #2 WR, combined with Hoyer's quick release and accurate pass, and with this defence, why shouldn't I project a playoff calibre team. For the first time in a while, I can really see some progress and potential.
The F was not in relation to the entire draft, just the situation at WR. While I don't give the draft an A right now, it certainly has the potential to be one with the Buffalo trade, and the play of our selections (many of which will be starters really soon). I don't mean to bash Farmer or the FO because I can't imagine another group having done a better job. So I'll tip my cap to them as we head into summer camp, even though I am not happy about their efforts to proactively address the void at WR.
Indeed, I fully realize that it might be difficult to address all the areas of need in one draft. But have they not done that (except for WR)? It seems they populated a stable of quality RB's and DB's -that's excellent. ILB and QB is still a concern but they tried their best to address them in the draft. OG was clearly addressed in the draft. Slot R was addressed as Hawkins replaced Bess. But WR has gone from Gordon & Little to ? and ?. Sorry, but why should I be happy with that? I'm having visions of 11 men in the box (J/K) as we have no proven/healthy/unsuspended WR's. We all know that we need a balanced attack in order to consistently win in our division.
And yes, call me crazy, but I think with Gordon and a good #2 WR, combined with Hoyer's quick release and accurate pass, and with this defence, why shouldn't I project a playoff calibre team. For the first time in a while, I can really see some progress and potential.
The Cleveland Browns 2014 draft will match the Steelers 1974 draft for the number of Hall of Fame players taken.
Gilbert at CB
Manziel at QB
Bitonio at OL
And at least 1 other....maybe Kirksey, maybe Desir
What do you think about that?
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1 - I'm 99.100% sure Burleson was a starter last year in Detroit. He had 461 yards in the 8 games he played in. When healthy, he is more than capable of being a solid WR2, and a definite upgrade over Little.
2 - Austin in the last 5 years had 1,320/1,041/579/943/244, that's 3 years over-or-close-to 1,000 yds in the past 5. The two low years, he was hurt. He's only 29, and is taking his time with the Browns trainers getting healthy. He is capable of being a solid WR1, but if healthy is certainly a great WR2. A definite upgrade over Little.
3 - Hawkins... I'm not too sold on, but he seems to have great potential. Hell, if he can catch the ball he's a definite upgrade over Little.
Other than adding these 3 to upgrade over Little (who sucked) and Bess (who is crazy)... how exactly did the FO mess up this WR situation?
If anybody is responsible for our WR position being weaker than desirable it's JOSH GORDON. If he's on the field, and we have Gordon/Austin/Burleson/Hawkins and they are all healthy... that is a more-than-solid WR corp
1 - I'm 99.100% sure Burleson was a starter last year in Detroit.
Nate started 8 of the 9 games in which he appeared.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BurlNa00.htm
Overall I agree with you analysis. But our WR corps is still very "iffy"... as in:
- If Josh's suspension is not a full season...
- If Austin stays healthy...
- If Hawkins lives up to his early showing...
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http://collegespun.com/features/2014-nfl-draft-grades/3
Gave Browns a draft grade of A-. The same grade as the squeelers.
When the cap cuts hit, I bet that Farmer and Pettine will find another
veteran wr to step into the mix.
I loved the Browns draft. Like was said before, the Seahaws
went to the Superbowl with veteran receivers...
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Burleson > Little
Hawkins > Bess
Benjamin> no Benjamin
Austin & Armstrong ... We'll see
Udfa and johnson ... We'll see
I guess everyone wanted us to replace Josh Gordon instantly ... Because there are gobs of 1600 yard receivers out there running around.
Gordon isn't dead. He isn't even injured. He'll be back by 2015 at the latest, with two years on his contract.
The front office would have been foolish to abandon it's game plan to replace a star player for one year.
I wonder what the Manziel fans can tell us about the WRs that Seattle won a SB with?
Z
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I think this team has made it clear they expect to build from the basics up. Defense first, O-line second and a QB to act like more of a point guard than a needle threading play call changer. Get the ball. Hold with great D and keep it with a great O-line blocking for power runners who know how to catch screens as well. Don;t be surprised if they go for a RT first pick next year to bookend with Thomas.
If you are talking "point guard as a game manager, then I agree. But regardless I am not sure how you got to the underlined bit.
Changing the play, be it to a different run or a pass, is an important part of a running game when the D is stacked to stop the run whether to one side or altogether.
And if the audible is to a quick slant, which it often is, there are few routes that call for more of a needle threading.
If you are talking "point guard as a game manager, then I agree. But regardless I am not sure how you got to the underlined bit.
Changing the play, be it to a different run or a pass, is an important part of a running game when the D is stacked to stop the run whether to one side or altogether.
And if the audible is to a quick slant, which it often is, there are few routes that call for more of a needle threading.
Actually I was thinking more in line as game manager rather than a Payton Manning who constantly calls needle threading play calls at the LOS. Yes, I do expect him to have certain play changing abilities when it is obvious what is called will be stuffed. But it could be as simple as a change to a screen opposite of expected side of pressure. Or even an understanding with key receivers on hand signaled change of route on a passing play call, something he excels at already.
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Burleson > Little
Hawkins > Bess
Benjamin> no Benjamin
Austin & Armstrong ... We'll see
Udfa and johnson ... We'll see
I guess everyone wanted us to replace Josh Gordon instantly ... Because there are gobs of 1600 yard receivers out there running around.
Gordon isn't dead. He isn't even injured. He'll be back by 2015 at the latest, with two years on his contract.
The front office would have been foolish to abandon it's game plan to replace a star player for one year.
I wonder what the Manziel fans can tell us about the WRs that Seattle won a SB with?
Z
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Burleson > Little
Hawkins > Bess
Benjamin> no Benjamin
Austin & Armstrong ... We'll see
Udfa and johnson ... We'll see
I guess everyone wanted us to replace Josh Gordon instantly ... Because there are gobs of 1600 yard receivers out there running around.
Gordon isn't dead. He isn't even injured. He'll be back by 2015 at the latest, with two years on his contract.
The front office would have been foolish to abandon it's game plan to replace a star player for one year.
I wonder what the Manziel fans can tell us about the WRs that Seattle won a SB with?
Z
Zombo said:
Benjamin> no Benjamin
Very astute observation!!
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Tell ya what. ....
I'll bitch about it when it fucks up. ...
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
I would have liked Mike Evans, but am happy with Gilbert. CB was a big need too.
We just missed Brandon Cooks.
Marquis Lee injury red flags.
We needed CB and coverage linebacker. I like who we got, GIbert, Kirksey, Desir.
Bitonio big need on right side of line
Love West, have high hopes for Manziel.
Hopefully we can get WRs in trade or cuts
Pound the rock
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I don't know how these receivers will pan out, but you can't say Farmer isn't going for the speed. Here's the 40 yd times of all the new guys, plus Benjamin for comparison.
Jones- 4.34Hawkins- 4.34Benjamin- 4.36Armstrong- 4.38Johnson- 4.38Shaw- 4.56Snead- 4.6You realize that Benjamin is only .03 seconds away from being the FIFTH fastest in this group?! -
How about we let the season play out before bitching about draft picks with absolutely no sample size to work with. Hell I could understand bitching in preseason, but now? C'mon now. I hope you started this thread in the hopes of drumming up conversation. Else wise, you probably need to look into a hobby.
God forbid we discuss the team on a message board. That would be stupid.
Every year people bring up legitimate concerns about certain aspects of the team and every year the homers belittle those concerns.
How about the Browns actually win some games before we start believing that every fucking move they make is golden?
Our WR corps is questionable at best and putrid if you look at it realistically. It doesn't help that we are going to have an inexperienced QB throwing them the ball.
I don't agree w/much of what the original poster said, as I would not have drafted a WR in round 1, but quit acting like the WR unit is not a concern. It is a concern and more than likely---it's a problem area.
God forbid we discuss the team on a message board. That would be stupid.
Every year people bring up legitimate concerns about certain aspects of the team and every year the homers belittle those concerns.
How about the Browns actually win some games before we start believing that every fucking move they make is golden?
Our WR corps is questionable at best and putrid if you look at it realistically. It doesn't help that we are going to have an inexperienced QB throwing them the ball.
I don't agree w/much of what the original poster said, as I would not have drafted a WR in round 1, but quit acting like the WR unit is not a concern. It is a concern and more than likely---it's a problem area.
Where to start.
First off I never said this is the best group of WR the NFL has ever known. I said we don't know what we have and to preemptively freak out about is waste of time and effort, much like criticizing draft picks before they've played a down.
Secondly, please point out where I said every move made is golden. Saying there is no factual evidence or logical reasoning behind preemptively bitching doesn't equate to every move being golden. It means there is no factual evidence or logical reasoning behind preemptively bitching.
Thirdly, I said I hoped the OP created the thread for the sole reason of discussion which I contributed to by giving my opinion in that we should wait to actually see the team play before placing blame for a so far unknown problem. For all we know the leaking of Gordon's suspension before it had become official, along with the circumstances surrounding the violation (potentially Gordon missing the test due to a team organized event,) will result in no suspension. Will the WR's still be the biggest problem since AIDs then?
Relax, it's June for God's sake. Nothing is set in stone.
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