O-line Grades Week 2
-
All positive numbers again. THat's a good sign
-
Anyone caught quoting this post in its entirety to make a one line comment, will be disciplined severely...
Lol. Wow this must've taken some time to review and document all this. Nice to read, especially when I don't have time to study the o-line in that much detail. They have the least thankful job to the majority of fans, unless they clearly mess up or have a key block. (Myself included as well.)
I am still not sure I completely buy this, but I appreciate the effort.
Curious as to why you say this? I do find it impressive that Tour can tell what all of the assignments are without a Browns playbook in hand, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to dispute that. (No doubt why I find it impressive.)
Curious as to why you say this? I do find it impressive that Tour can tell what all of the assignments are without a Browns playbook in hand, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to dispute that. (No doubt why I find it impressive.)
Well, it was either Mark Twain or Winston Churchill who said: "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics".
-
Curious as to why you say this? I do find it impressive that Tour can tell what all of the assignments are without a Browns playbook in hand, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to dispute that. (No doubt why I find it impressive.)
Well, it was either Mark Twain or Winston Churchill who said: "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics".
Well, it was either Mark Twain or Winston Churchill who said: "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics".
Mark Twain. -one of my favorite quotes.
-
Excellent stuff, thanks for sharing. Much appreciated.
I'm not a big O-line fan, but more appreciate the reports on the backs. Many great runners don't see the field in early years because they can't pick up a blitz. Sounds like Crowell and West are doing as well in this department as they are carrying the rock so far?
-
Looking forward to part 2 now that I have seen the seen the full replay.
-
I love this effort - really enjoy the detail - helping me get some subtleties that are new also thanks. Im going to - yes this is sad - watch the first half tonight (won't be able to sleep as heading to CLE at 0430 tomorrow) with your notes and see if that helps me understand more line play detail.
A football addicts life is sweet.
Thanks again.
-
Anyone caught quoting this post in its entirety to make a one line comment, will be disciplined severely...
Lol. Wow this must've taken some time to review and document all this. Nice to read, especially when I don't have time to study the o-line in that much detail. They have the least thankful job to the majority of fans, unless they clearly mess up or have a key block. (Myself included as well.)
I am still not sure I completely buy this, but I appreciate the effort.
Curious as to why you say this? I do find it impressive that Tour can tell what all of the assignments are without a Browns playbook in hand, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to dispute that. (No doubt why I find it impressive.)
So, Z... "The check is in the mail?"
Lol. Wow this must've taken some time to review and document all this. Nice to read, especially when I don't have time to study the o-line in that much detail. They have the least thankful job to the majority of fans, unless they clearly mess up or have a key block. (Myself included as well.)
Curious as to why you say this? I do find it impressive that Tour can tell what all of the assignments are without a Browns playbook in hand, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to dispute that. (No doubt why I find it impressive.)
Yup... usually only gross failures that get a RB or QB blown up make replay, but the reason a run only goes for 3 yds usually goes unnoticed. Similar can be said about positive efforts.
As far as "all of the assignments"... that's where the Zone scheme is really analysis friendly. The assignments are pretty much run left or run right... lol...
In good old-fashioned, drive-pull-trap power schemes Rule #1 is "man over or inside". In the zone they do so much "over or outside" it's mind-blowing to an O-line fossil like me. Even more mind-blowing is that they make it work... Also as I said in the OP, the way they pass defenders off is way beyond anything I'm used to seeing. Especially this week...
This unit is growing...
Excellent stuff, thanks for sharing. Much appreciated.[/size]
Sounds like Crowell and West are doing as well in this department as they are carrying the rock so far?[/size]
You're welcome and thank you...
Crowell's good, but West in particular seems to have good blitz-vision. He missed one p/u week one, but none in Week 2's first half. Now it looks like seeing who is blitzing is the next step. He's tending to meet bigger LBs high and smaller DBs low... kinda bass-ackwards...
-
Second Half Grades
We ran 41 plays in 4 series in our second half.
Joe Thomas: +15 -11 net +4
By his standards Joe had a bad half. He registered no dbl+, but 5... yes 5... dbl-'s starting with his holding penalty. He had issues with the outside speed rush much of the half including a sack of BH in the last drive. He whiffed on one critical point of attack block.
Joel Bitonio: +20 -2 net +18
Joel had a true lunch-bucket half in which he did not register a single dbl of either type. His only trap pull of the half was wasted when West chose the wrong gap. One thing was obvious this half... Joel has a motor. Motor's a term you generally associate with D-linemen, but it applies to Bito. He's inexhaustible... always looking for the next target until the whistle blows...
Alex Mack: +21 -4 net +17
Speaking of motors... damn, but Alex is earning his money. His half included 2 dbl+ and one dbl-. Odd thing about the dbl- is that it came on the heels of a +. He turned a D-line nicely to pass to Grecco, but then whiffed on his 2nd lvl LB who blew up a run. He gave up one pressure of BH when the NT got him with a nice rip. Otherwise his pass protection was solid. Alex hustled his ass off to get a downfield block on the bubble screen to Gabe in our winning drive... did not get a block (or a +), but he hustled.
John Greco +18 -4 net +14
John had no dbl+. He had a dbl- when he missed an LB shooting into his gap. The LB proceeded to blow up a promising run by Crow in our 7th series. Of even greater concern were a couple of "things" he got away with in our 7th series, which resulted in a TD. In Play #10, a 21 yd run at the 5:18 mark, it looked like he got away with a hold. On the series' final play, West's TD, it looked very much like John cut a D-line who was still in contact with Mack up high. Mack was moving onto the 2nd level where he made a great block (for a dbl+), so Alex may have disengaged, but...
M. Schwartz +17 -15 +2
Mitch got his only dbl+ on the above TD play. In all he received 4 dbl-, including three in a row at the start of our game winning drive where he... well... watch for yourself... series starts at 2:26 mark. But he recovered to achieve a net zero for the rest of the drive.... so there's that.
Again... Mitch simply cannot move well enough to handle speed rush. He was beaten badly by one with Greco waiting inside to help. Even when he only had the outside to worry about, he could not cut off the rusher. Why he cannot punch them like he does bigger, slower DEs I do not know. As effective as the couple of punches he threw this half were in stopping bigs, you'd think the smaller speed guys would go down...
Did I mention he had a dbl+? It was pretty...
General observations
1. The line posted their first straight + pass play... the 4th and 9 pass to Barn in the final drive. Best, cleanest pocket Brian saw all day. Setting aside the possible illegal cut, they also posted their first straight + run play... West's TD run. And it included dbl+ blocks by Mack and Mitch to boot. Both plays should be available for your viewing pleasure in our video highlights. They are worth watching...
2. A couple WRs got into the blocking act and earned dbl +'s. On our 7th Series' opening play the Goliath pair of Hawk and Moore were split right. They delivered a textbook X-block on a pair of DBs that Crow then split for a 9-yd gain. Might still be running... but for a certain OT that did not sustain his block of an LB... On the very next play Hawk got a dbl- for olaying a db downfield. Fame is fleeting...
3. Barn had a nice trap block in Q4. He and Drey were both good, not great blockers in the half. Barn gets a total pass though because of his 4th down catch...
4. West was again a mixed bag in his blitz p/u's. But in the last drive, when NO dialed up some serious heat, West sucked it up and went 4 for 5. His one miss was not the determining factor in the play's failure (pass was batted at the line by you-know-whose opposite). I think West did miss two "holes" in the half carrying the ball.
5. Crow is seriously getting with this one-cut program... At the 5:54 mark of Q3 he punished a NO Safety at the end of a 6-yd run
6. It's time to give some credit to Andy Moeller (O-Line Coach) and George DeLeone (Asst O-line Coach). They are building one helluva unit.
7. Also time to give some love to Wilbert Montgomery (RBs Coach). Our young RBs have talent, but Wilbert has quickly shaped them into more than anyone had a reason to expect.
Final, Week 2 grades coming right up...
-
Bitonio looking a great pick, thanks for your work.
-
Bitonio is looking all-world right now. Damn sure proving the draft pick was correct. JT is a competitor so I'm not really worried about the left side as the season progresses. Let's hope Schwartz picks it up as several here predict he will based on his play last year as the season went on. This is turning into the kind of line this team needs to go with a defense that never gets caught scoreboard watching like Tampa Bay did last night on both sides of the ball.
-
Week 2: Final Grades
9 series/ 75 offensive plays
Joe Thomas: +30 -13 net +17 C
Joel Bitonio : +37 - 7 net +30 A+
Alex Mack... : +31 - 9 net +22 B-
John Greco. : +31 - 6 net +25 B
M. Schwartz : +25 -22 net + 3 D-
Week 2: Final Grades
9 series/ 75 offensive plays
Joe Thomas: +30 -13 net +17 C
Joel Bitonio : +37 - 7 net +30 A+
Alex Mack... : +31 - 9 net +22 B-
John Greco. : +31 - 6 net +25 B
M. Schwartz : +25 -22 net + 3 D-
OK, I concede Schwartz is the weak link so far ... on a very good OL.
Any chance your scoring system favors interior lineman, because they don't have the riskier assignments or tougher opponents? Not being a smart ass, just asking. Like when you compare a second baseman's fielding percentage with a third baseman's ... much more room for error on the hot corner.
Zombo
-
Week 2: Final Grades
9 series/ 75 offensive plays
Joe Thomas: +30 -13 net +17 C
Joel Bitonio : +37 - 7 net +30 A+
Alex Mack... : +31 - 9 net +22 B-
John Greco. : +31 - 6 net +25 B
M. Schwartz : +25 -22 net + 3 D-
OK, I concede Schwartz is the weak link so far ... on a very good OL.
Any chance your scoring system favors interior lineman, because they don't have the riskier assignments or tougher opponents? Not being a smart ass, just asking. Like when you compare a second baseman's fielding percentage with a third baseman's ... much more room for error on the hot corner.
Zombo
Zombo said:
OK, I concede Schwartz is the weak link so far ... on a very good OL.
Any chance your scoring system favors interior lineman, because they don't have the riskier assignments or tougher opponents? Not being a smart ass, just asking. Like when you compare a second baseman's fielding percentage with a third baseman's ... much more room for error on the hot corner.
Zombo
Fair question and a good point, finally.
Schwartz is bad. We need him to achieve his assignments this week v Baltimore's blitzing OLB's.
-
Week 2: Final Grades
9 series/ 75 offensive plays
Joe Thomas: +30 -13 net +17 C
Joel Bitonio : +37 - 7 net +30 A+
Alex Mack... : +31 - 9 net +22 B-
John Greco. : +31 - 6 net +25 B
M. Schwartz : +25 -22 net + 3 D-
OK, I concede Schwartz is the weak link so far ... on a very good OL.
Any chance your scoring system favors interior lineman, because they don't have the riskier assignments or tougher opponents? Not being a smart ass, just asking. Like when you compare a second baseman's fielding percentage with a third baseman's ... much more room for error on the hot corner.
Zombo
Zombo said:
OK, I concede Schwartz is the weak link so far ... on a very good OL.
Any chance your scoring system favors interior lineman, because they don't have the riskier assignments or tougher opponents? Not being a smart ass, just asking. Like when you compare a second baseman's fielding percentage with a third baseman's ... much more room for error on the hot corner.
Very fair question taken in the spirit it was intended... asshole...
What you suggest may well be the case, Z, especially for pass plays. The end of the line in battle always carries the added risk of being outflanked to being overrun. I also agree that the OTs face the biggest potential mismatches, or at least the widest variety of talent... strong bulls vs. fast speedsters.
In pass protection the OTs seem far more likely to fail physically than their interior counterparts. The potential for mental failures are probably close to the same across the O-line (excepting the Center given his line call responsibilities, but I have no way of judging this).
I don't think the same can be said for run plays. Physical failure potentials seem to equalize while mental remains level. This may be even more true in our zone scheme. In the 1st two games there have been a couple times when I did not give a - for a failed assignment, because the apparent assignment looked to be undoable.
For grins I looked at Mitch's negs and of his -22 total, half were earned in runs, and half in passes. Three of his four dbl -'s came on run plays; his one dbl+ was a run play.
As mentioned above Mitch is the weakest link... physically and mentally. That's a bad combo made even worse in a zone scheme. Yet there are times when he absolutely wows me. Then there are times like Series 9 Play 3 (around Q4's 2:30 mark) when:
West ran over left guard; Greco and Mitch cut across to shallow downfield in lock step; John engaged Defender 1 and slid to Defender 2, passing D1 to Mitch; Mitch promptly passed D1 to West... and D1 made the tackle after a 4-yd gain that could have been more.
I do have to note that there were only a handful of plays where it appeared an assist for Mitch was in the design. Then again, I am hard pressed to think of any plays where assists seemed to be designed for any other O-lineman.
Mitch may well improve as the season progresses. Lord knows until he does, other teams are going to supply plenty of opportunities for him to strengthen his weaknesses.
-
Bitonio is looking all-world right now. Damn sure proving the draft pick was correct. JT is a competitor so I'm not really worried about the left side as the season progresses. Let's hope Schwartz picks it up as several here predict he will based on his play last year as the season went on. This is turning into the kind of line this team needs to go with a defense that never gets caught scoreboard watching like Tampa Bay did last night on both sides of the ball.
Bitonio is looking all-world right now. Damn sure proving the draft pick was correct. JT is a competitor so I'm not really worried about the left side as the season progresses. Let's hope Schwartz picks it up as several here predict he will based on his play last year as the season went on. This is turning into the kind of line this team needs to go with a defense that never gets caught scoreboard watching like Tampa Bay did last night on both sides of the ball.
Which kind of backs my point that we shouldn't burn high first round skill player picks on OL, when we can get solid "all world" performance further down the list......Bitonio is freaking solid.....love this guy!
-
Bitonio is looking all-world right now. Damn sure proving the draft pick was correct. JT is a competitor so I'm not really worried about the left side as the season progresses. Let's hope Schwartz picks it up as several here predict he will based on his play last year as the season went on. This is turning into the kind of line this team needs to go with a defense that never gets caught scoreboard watching like Tampa Bay did last night on both sides of the ball.
Which kind of backs my point that we shouldn't burn high first round skill player picks on OL, when we can get solid "all world" performance further down the list......Bitonio is freaking solid.....love this guy!
Which kind of backs my point that we shouldn't burn high first round skill player picks on OL, when we can get solid "all world" performance further down the list......Bitonio is freaking solid.....love this guy!
lol... there are those *cough cough Ghoulie cough cough* that will argue a 2nd is too high for a "dime-a-dozen O-lineman"...
-
Any count on how many times a back or TE was assigned to chip on Schwartz side? I'm sure there's no approximate count you have - a guess would be interesting though.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login