Is the defensive scheme the problem? Or is it the players?
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Is it the new scheme the cause of the Browns' less-than-stellar defensive performance to-date? Is this scheme very difficult to learn - or is it not intuitive? Last week I kept reading that both Pettine and the players claimed that they just need to play their role and stop trying to make plays. Sounds like they haven't grasped the system yet, and their performance on the field is evidence of that.
Does this scheme require different players to operate effectively? Players that are more disciplined who will learn and play their "role"? I can't recall a stretch of 4 games where the Browns' tackling was as poor as this - is that a function of players abandoning their "role" and trying to make plays?
???
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It's a good question. I'm just not sure if what I'm seeing is scheme related or not. If it is, teams have def solved it the scheme. It's just hard to imagine a defense struggling with a scheme to still look that bad. I know people are going to say they pitched a shutout in the 2nd half...but I think that had a lot to do with the Titans offense getting away from the run because Hoyer was starting to score. Our defense will always look ok as long as it isn't faced with a strong running attack. I shudder to think what that 49'ers run master O line would do to the browns right now. I think Gore and Hyde would both go for over 100.
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dudes. savor the win.
stop it pleez.
enough said.
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Its scheme, man coverage these days in the NFL, with the new DB rules, just not a consistent way to stop an NFL defense, need to play zone more, our dbs (even Haden) just aren't good enough at just man coverage.
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Officiating has changed the game unfortunately.
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I think the talent is there. It just has to mesh with the system. Not that we couldn't use more talent....always can do that...but for now we can only hope this group improves in this system. It seemed to work for the second half yesterday...and in game 1 vs. Squibs. It now has to go for a full game.
Two more first round picks next year may help with some talent.
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Officiating has changed the game unfortunately.
Officiating has changed the game unfortunately.
Somewhat, yes. I don't think DBs can be as aggressive. I think that has hurt Haden.
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Officiating has changed the game unfortunately.
Officiating has changed the game unfortunately.
Watching the late game last night they noted that through week 5 last year there were 38 illegal contact/holding penalties on the defense. Halfway through the late game last night, there have been 90 such calls this year. When it's all said and done after tonight's game, we're looking at roughly 250% increase in that penalty being called. That stuff changes the game man.
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It's a good question. I'm just not sure if what I'm seeing is scheme related or not. If it is, teams have def solved it the scheme. It's just hard to imagine a defense struggling with a scheme to still look that bad. I know people are going to say they pitched a shutout in the 2nd half...but I think that had a lot to do with the Titans offense getting away from the run because Hoyer was starting to score. Our defense will always look ok as long as it isn't faced with a strong running attack. I shudder to think what that 49'ers run master O line would do to the browns right now. I think Gore and Hyde would both go for over 100.
It's a good question. I'm just not sure if what I'm seeing is scheme related or not. If it is, teams have def solved it the scheme. It's just hard to imagine a defense struggling with a scheme to still look that bad. I know people are going to say they pitched a shutout in the 2nd half...but I think that had a lot to do with the Titans offense getting away from the run because Hoyer was starting to score. Our defense will always look ok as long as it isn't faced with a strong running attack. I shudder to think what that 49'ers run master O line would do to the browns right now. I think Gore and Hyde would both go for over 100.
I do agree I think the titans got away from the run too early for some reason. What did they average, 7YPC in the first half?
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It's a good question. I'm just not sure if what I'm seeing is scheme related or not. If it is, teams have def solved it the scheme. It's just hard to imagine a defense struggling with a scheme to still look that bad. I know people are going to say they pitched a shutout in the 2nd half...but I think that had a lot to do with the Titans offense getting away from the run because Hoyer was starting to score. Our defense will always look ok as long as it isn't faced with a strong running attack. I shudder to think what that 49'ers run master O line would do to the browns right now. I think Gore and Hyde would both go for over 100.
I do agree I think the titans got away from the run too early for some reason. What did they average, 7YPC in the first half?
yeah something like that. Why they brought in Whitehurst and put the game in his arm is beyond me. Fuggin run the ball and maybe we don't make that comeback cause our defense wouldn't have gotten off the field for the entire 2nd half.
I do agree I think the titans got away from the run too early for some reason. What did they average, 7YPC in the first half?
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First, my answer to the OP's question is both.
Players:
Our assembled D personnel were not "all that" last year; they had issues. This year 9 of 11 starters are back and at least in my estimation the two "new guys" are a net wash with the departed.
Scheme:
Going from a 3-4 with Kruger as a beefed-up, stand-up, rushing OLB to a "hybrid" with Kruger as a slimmed-down, stand-up, rushing OLB/DE is not as earth shatteringly different as I thought it would be.
Best I can see the biggest difference between last and this year's D is that last year I held out; this year I bought in.
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I had been thinking scheme was the issue since pre-season, but man, now I'm starting to wonder if it isn't more of a talent issue. When we drafted Gilbert, most, if not all of us assumed we would have 2 'shut down corners' which would allow us to do all sorts of aggressive packages, especially with the additions of Whitner and Dansby. Now, it's safe to declare we barley have just 1 above avg NFL CB, and the other guys just look, well, not very good. Yes, they do have their moments like yesterday's 4th and 1 stuffage, but they also stink it up for more plays than they don't.
Seems to me, there is only so much 'magic' in any particular scheme, and you simply have to have talent on the field to play well, no matter what magical scheme is being run.
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It may be a mixed bag of a lot of things but I am starting to believe in many cases its on the players lack of focus and execution. We miss so many tackles I can't believe my TV isnt broken. I don't think for most of the players its a talent issue either I simply think they come out flat and need a fire under their ass. The only place my opinion differs on that is with Haden and Skrine. The focus on playing man uncovers significant weaknesses on the part of both of them. This is an area that I think the coaches should fix by abandoning their obsession with man coverage and better utilizing the talent we have.
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the offenses are changing to more of a spread. with the new rules it neuters the db. this opens for allot of qb scramble.
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that's why nowadays as a DC DON"T put a stamp on your scheme. 4-3, 3-4. how about being a fluid changing thing depending on your opponent you are facing?
sheard mingo and kruger should have at least 2 sacks by now.
step up to the plate pettine and bring the gloves out of your panty drawer. sure you look tough but i'm still waiting for a knockout.
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Officiating has changed the game unfortunately.
Somewhat, yes. I don't think DBs can be as aggressive. I think that has hurt Haden.
Somewhat, yes. I don't think DBs can be as aggressive. I think that has hurt Haden.
Not just Haden. This is playing out all over the league, so this isn't just a Joe Haden sucks type of deal as some think.
The NFL brass doesn't want tough, low scoring defensive battles. They want arena league type scoring. First it was no touching the QB. Now you really can't cover the receivers. The most the DBs can do is run and chase and hope for a bad pass to fall incomplete or be underthrown where they might have a chance to defend it.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. -
Somewhat, yes. I don't think DBs can be as aggressive. I think that has hurt Haden.
Not just Haden. This is playing out all over the league, so this isn't just a Joe Haden sucks type of deal as some think.
The NFL brass doesn't want tough, low scoring defensive battles. They want arena league type scoring. First it was no touching the QB. Now you really can't cover the receivers. The most the DBs can do is run and chase and hope for a bad pass to fall incomplete or be underthrown where they might have a chance to defend it.
Not just Haden. This is playing out all over the league, so this isn't just a Joe Haden sucks type of deal as some think.
The NFL brass doesn't want tough, low scoring defensive battles. They want arena league type scoring. First it was no touching the QB. Now you really can't cover the receivers. The most the DBs can do is run and chase and hope for a bad pass to fall incomplete or be underthrown where they might have a chance to defend it.
from your lips to god's ears.
100% correct.
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Somewhat, yes. I don't think DBs can be as aggressive. I think that has hurt Haden.
Not just Haden. This is playing out all over the league, so this isn't just a Joe Haden sucks type of deal as some think.
The NFL brass doesn't want tough, low scoring defensive battles. They want arena league type scoring. First it was no touching the QB. Now you really can't cover the receivers. The most the DBs can do is run and chase and hope for a bad pass to fall incomplete or be underthrown where they might have a chance to defend it.
Not just Haden. This is playing out all over the league, so this isn't just a Joe Haden sucks type of deal as some think.
True... even Sherman has looked human. Makes it even more important to play tough in those first 5-yards where you can contact them.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
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Sherman got "beat" on a zone play like the one where Joe was slow or late in his reading of the play.
I think as the year goes on the players will adapt. It can't get any worse for our secondary..
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