Quarterbacks of the Ages
-
I thought Stabler was clutch, and he should be in. The playoff game against the Dolphins was an all time classic, when he basically heaved a desperation shovel pass to the Oakland RB in the endzone (Clarence Davis) amongst a sea of Dolphins.
I think Ken Anderson is a lot like Jim Hart, solid QB with longevity. Those guys were good, not great.
My top HOF shuns are Hanford Dixon & Clay Matthews. I don't understand how they aren't in.
Karlis Missed -
Zombo said:
None of these guys not in belong in, including Anderson.
Zombo
Based on their total career accomplishment then can we assume that you believe that Dan Fouts would not belong in either? Here are their comparative stats:
Fouts: 86-84-1 as a starting QB
3297/5604 58.8 completion pct. 43030 yards
254 TDs 4.5% TD%
242 Ints. 4.3% Int.%
7.7 yards per attempt
13.1 yards per catch
237.8 yards per game
80.2 passer rating
319 sacks for 2304 yards lost
24 4th qtr. comebacks
26 game winning drives
Ken Anderson: 91-81 as a starting QB
2654/4475 59.3 completion % 32838 yards
197 TDs 4.4 TD %
160 Ints. 3.6 Int.%
7.3 yards per attempt
12.4 yards per completion
171.0 yards per game
81.9 passer rating
398 sacks for 2875 sack yards
10 4th quarter comebacks
15 game winning drives
This shows me a couple of things: Fouts played in a more pass happy offense than Anderson what with Air Coryell and all that.
Most of the other stats I think were reflective of that.
To me, the biggest edge Fouts has is in the 4th Qtr comeback and game winning drive areas. Anderson had only 10-15 of those in his career. (I think Brian Hoyer has 4-5 just this year alone, no?)
Otherwise I think the two are pretty comparable in their achievement.
-
I thought Stabler was clutch, and he should be in. The playoff game against the Dolphins was an all time classic, when he basically heaved a desperation shovel pass to the Oakland RB in the endzone (Clarence Davis) amongst a sea of Dolphins.
I think Ken Anderson is a lot like Jim Hart, solid QB with longevity. Those guys were good, not great.
My top HOF shuns are Hanford Dixon & Clay Matthews. I don't understand how they aren't in.
I thought Stabler was clutch, and he should be in. The playoff game against the Dolphins was an all time classic, when he basically heaved a desperation shovel pass to the Oakland RB in the endzone (Clarence Davis) amongst a sea of Dolphins.
I think Ken Anderson is a lot like Jim Hart, solid QB with longevity. Those guys were good, not great.
My top HOF shuns are Hanford Dixon & Clay Matthews. I don't understand how they aren't in.
The bold may be a fair statement, but per the statistic I am using, Anderson had about 20% more production in his 15-16 year career than Hart did in a 20 year career.
-
Zombo said:
None of these guys not in belong in, including Anderson.
Zombo
Based on their total career accomplishment then can we assume that you believe that Dan Fouts would not belong in either? Here are their comparative stats:
Fouts: 86-84-1 as a starting QB
3297/5604 58.8 completion pct. 43030 yards
254 TDs 4.5% TD%
242 Ints. 4.3% Int.%
7.7 yards per attempt
13.1 yards per catch
237.8 yards per game
80.2 passer rating
319 sacks for 2304 yards lost
24 4th qtr. comebacks
26 game winning drives
Ken Anderson: 91-81 as a starting QB
2654/4475 59.3 completion % 32838 yards
197 TDs 4.4 TD %
160 Ints. 3.6 Int.%
7.3 yards per attempt
12.4 yards per completion
171.0 yards per game
81.9 passer rating
398 sacks for 2875 sack yards
10 4th quarter comebacks
15 game winning drives
This shows me a couple of things: Fouts played in a more pass happy offense than Anderson what with Air Coryell and all that.
Most of the other stats I think were reflective of that.
To me, the biggest edge Fouts has is in the 4th Qtr comeback and game winning drive areas. Anderson had only 10-15 of those in his career. (I think Brian Hoyer has 4-5 just this year alone, no?)
Otherwise I think the two are pretty comparable in their achievement.
Based on their total career accomplishment then can we assume that you believe that Dan Fouts would not belong in either? Here are their comparative stats:
Fouts: 86-84-1 as a starting QB
3297/5604 58.8 completion pct. 43030 yards
254 TDs 4.5% TD%
242 Ints. 4.3% Int.%
7.7 yards per attempt
13.1 yards per catch
237.8 yards per game
80.2 passer rating
319 sacks for 2304 yards lost
24 4th qtr. comebacks
26 game winning drives
Ken Anderson: 91-81 as a starting QB
2654/4475 59.3 completion % 32838 yards
197 TDs 4.4 TD %
160 Ints. 3.6 Int.%
7.3 yards per attempt
12.4 yards per completion
171.0 yards per game
81.9 passer rating
398 sacks for 2875 sack yards
10 4th quarter comebacks
15 game winning drives
This shows me a couple of things: Fouts played in a more pass happy offense than Anderson what with Air Coryell and all that.
Most of the other stats I think were reflective of that.
To me, the biggest edge Fouts has is in the 4th Qtr comeback and game winning drive areas. Anderson had only 10-15 of those in his career. (I think Brian Hoyer has 4-5 just this year alone, no?)
Otherwise I think the two are pretty comparable in their achievement.
It's not even close. Look at the yards per game, they played in the same era same time, except for a couple seasons in the 80's , Anderson was a "game manager". Fouts was a freaking stud. And more than twice the 4th quarter comebacks tells you a lot too. You are old enough to remember both of these guys, put away the stats and remember watching them play ... who stood out?
Plus there is this:
6× Pro Bowl (1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1985)2× First-team All-Pro (1979, 1982)2× Second-team All-Pro (1980, 1985)Pro Bowl Co-MVP (1982)NFL MVP (PFWA, NEA, 1982)NFL Offensive Player of the Year (AP, PW, 1982)2× UPI AFC Player of the Year (1979, 1982)NFL 1980s All-Decade Team
-
Here is the generation of QBs that started their careers in like 1990 to 1997. I didn't want to go further so that the Manningbrady generation could be done separate. But here are these guys:
Brett Favre.....105
Drew Bledsoe.....103
Steve McNair.....100
Marke Brunell.....96
Trent Green.....94
Kerry Collins.....81
Jake Plummer.....77
Brad Johnson.....74
Jeff Blake.....68
Jeff George.....65
Neil O'Donnell.....59
Kordell Stewart.....59
Gus Frerotte.....56
Trent Dilfer.....51
Rodney Peete.....46
Elvis Grbac....46
Tony Banks....42
It seems to me that only Favre out of this group is a certain HOFer. Bledsoe and McNair are unlikely's
-
Based on their total career accomplishment then can we assume that you believe that Dan Fouts would not belong in either? Here are their comparative stats:
Fouts: 86-84-1 as a starting QB
3297/5604 58.8 completion pct. 43030 yards
254 TDs 4.5% TD%
242 Ints. 4.3% Int.%
7.7 yards per attempt
13.1 yards per catch
237.8 yards per game
80.2 passer rating
319 sacks for 2304 yards lost
24 4th qtr. comebacks
26 game winning drives
Ken Anderson: 91-81 as a starting QB
2654/4475 59.3 completion % 32838 yards
197 TDs 4.4 TD %
160 Ints. 3.6 Int.%
7.3 yards per attempt
12.4 yards per completion
171.0 yards per game
81.9 passer rating
398 sacks for 2875 sack yards
10 4th quarter comebacks
15 game winning drives
This shows me a couple of things: Fouts played in a more pass happy offense than Anderson what with Air Coryell and all that.
Most of the other stats I think were reflective of that.
To me, the biggest edge Fouts has is in the 4th Qtr comeback and game winning drive areas. Anderson had only 10-15 of those in his career. (I think Brian Hoyer has 4-5 just this year alone, no?)
Otherwise I think the two are pretty comparable in their achievement.
It's not even close. Look at the yards per game, they played in the same era same time, except for a couple seasons in the 80's , Anderson was a "game manager". Fouts was a freaking stud. And more than twice the 4th quarter comebacks tells you a lot too. You are old enough to remember both of these guys, put away the stats and remember watching them play ... who stood out?
Plus there is this:
6× Pro Bowl (1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1985)2× First-team All-Pro (1979, 1982)2× Second-team All-Pro (1980, 1985)Pro Bowl Co-MVP (1982)NFL MVP (PFWA, NEA, 1982)NFL Offensive Player of the Year (AP, PW, 1982)2× UPI AFC Player of the Year (1979, 1982)NFL 1980s All-Decade Team
Zombo said:
It's not even close. Look at the yards per game, they played in the same era same time, except for a couple seasons in the 80's , Anderson was a "game manager". Fouts was a freaking stud. And more than twice the 4th quarter comebacks tells you a lot too. You are old enough to remember both of these guys, put away the stats and remember watching them play ... who stood out?
Plus there is this:
6× Pro Bowl (1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1985)2× First-team All-Pro (1979, 1982)2× Second-team All-Pro (1980, 1985)Pro Bowl Co-MVP (1982)NFL MVP (PFWA, NEA, 1982)NFL Offensive Player of the Year (AP, PW, 1982)2× UPI AFC Player of the Year (1979, 1982)NFL 1980s All-Decade Team
Yes, but as I noted, they also played in completely different systems. Anderson may have been capable of throwing the ball around like hackey sack if he were asked. So the YPG doesn't impress me as much.
But those 4th quarter comebacks do....and that is the best part of your argument.
As for the accolades you mention, it is highly possible that Anderson took his share of trophies home as well. I haven't looked that up.
As for what stood out? The head to head matchup to go to the Super Bowl. Anderson won that.
-
I thought Stabler was clutch, and he should be in. The playoff game against the Dolphins was an all time classic, when he basically heaved a desperation shovel pass to the Oakland RB in the endzone (Clarence Davis) amongst a sea of Dolphins.
I think Ken Anderson is a lot like Jim Hart, solid QB with longevity. Those guys were good, not great.
My top HOF shuns are Hanford Dixon & Clay Matthews. I don't understand how they aren't in.
The bold may be a fair statement, but per the statistic I am using, Anderson had about 20% more production in his 15-16 year career than Hart did in a 20 year career.
The bold may be a fair statement, but per the statistic I am using, Anderson had about 20% more production in his 15-16 year career than Hart did in a 20 year career.
I didn't really look into your stat analysis, just remembered the guys when they played. I never cared for Anderson, mainly due to the rivalry. Anderson had Booby Clark & Isaac Curtis. Jim Hart had Terry Metcalf and I think Roy Green.
Pastorini & Archie Manning were similar too- both played on awful teams for their careers. Pastorini had his team improve when Earl campbell came along, and they lost twice to the dreaded Steelers in the AFC Championship (Renfro was in btw).
-
Here are the generations of QBs who began their careers from 1998-2007. I stop at that date as it encompasses a 10 years span, but it puts a fair time for a QB to have played up to this day, like 7 years:
Peyton Manning....172
Tom Brady.....145
Drew Brees....134
Phillip Rivers.....107
Donovan McNabb.....107
Kurt Warner.....96
Ben Roethlisberger.....94
Michael Vick.....91
Eli Manning.....89
Jeff Garcia.....88
Aaron Rodgers.....88
Carson Palmer.....88
Daunte Culpepper....86
Matt Hasselback.....85
Tony Romo.....84
Jon Kitna.....75
Jay Cutler.....68
Matt Schaub.....68
Aaron Brooks....65
David Garrard.....61
Jake Delhomme.....59
Marc Bulger.....57
Chad Pennington.....55
Jason Campbell....48
Alex Smith.....47
David Carr.....44
Matt Cassell....44
Ryan Fitzpatrick.....44
...Tim Couch....30
-
Zombo said:
It's not even close. Look at the yards per game, they played in the same era same time, except for a couple seasons in the 80's , Anderson was a "game manager". Fouts was a freaking stud. And more than twice the 4th quarter comebacks tells you a lot too. You are old enough to remember both of these guys, put away the stats and remember watching them play ... who stood out?
Plus there is this:
6× Pro Bowl (1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1985)2× First-team All-Pro (1979, 1982)2× Second-team All-Pro (1980, 1985)Pro Bowl Co-MVP (1982)NFL MVP (PFWA, NEA, 1982)NFL Offensive Player of the Year (AP, PW, 1982)2× UPI AFC Player of the Year (1979, 1982)NFL 1980s All-Decade Team
Yes, but as I noted, they also played in completely different systems. Anderson may have been capable of throwing the ball around like hackey sack if he were asked. So the YPG doesn't impress me as much.
But those 4th quarter comebacks do....and that is the best part of your argument.
As for the accolades you mention, it is highly possible that Anderson took his share of trophies home as well. I haven't looked that up.
As for what stood out? The head to head matchup to go to the Super Bowl. Anderson won that.
Yes, but as I noted, they also played in completely different systems. Anderson may have been capable of throwing the ball around like hackey sack if he were asked. So the YPG doesn't impress me as much.
But those 4th quarter comebacks do....and that is the best part of your argument.
As for the accolades you mention, it is highly possible that Anderson took his share of trophies home as well. I haven't looked that up.
As for what stood out? The head to head matchup to go to the Super Bowl. Anderson won that.
No Anderson did not have nearly the accolades. Yes, they played in different systems, Anderson played in safe WCO (the original) and Fouts had a vertical passing game yet his numbers were still as efficient.
It's the "Hall of FAME", not the "Hall of nifty stats". You are giving way too much value toward efficiency numbers and not enough toward production numbers IMO. Production counts. More yards ... More TDs ... that's the stuff that matters. Not just per attempt ...actual production.
43k yards versus 32k yards is huge, as is 254 TDs to 197. Fouts has Hall of Fame production. Systems don't make the HOF, the players that execute them do.
Fouts is absoulely in my Hall, Anderson is absolutely not.
Zombo
-
Yes, but as I noted, they also played in completely different systems. Anderson may have been capable of throwing the ball around like hackey sack if he were asked. So the YPG doesn't impress me as much.
But those 4th quarter comebacks do....and that is the best part of your argument.
As for the accolades you mention, it is highly possible that Anderson took his share of trophies home as well. I haven't looked that up.
As for what stood out? The head to head matchup to go to the Super Bowl. Anderson won that.
No Anderson did not have nearly the accolades. Yes, they played in different systems, Anderson played in safe WCO (the original) and Fouts had a vertical passing game yet his numbers were still as efficient.
It's the "Hall of FAME", not the "Hall of nifty stats". You are giving way too much value toward efficiency numbers and not enough toward production numbers IMO. Production counts. More yards ... More TDs ... that's the stuff that matters. Not just per attempt ...actual production.
43k yards versus 32k yards is huge, as is 254 TDs to 197. Fouts has Hall of Fame production. Systems don't make the HOF, the players that execute them do.
Fouts is absoulely in my Hall, Anderson is absolutely not.
Zombo
Zombo said:
No Anderson did not have nearly the accolades. Yes, they played in different systems, Anderson played in safe WCO (the original) and Fouts had a vertical passing game yet his numbers were still as efficient.
It's the "Hall of FAME", not the "Hall of nifty stats". You are giving way too much value toward efficiency numbers and not enough toward production numbers IMO. Production counts. More yards ... More TDs ... that's the stuff that matters. Not just per attempt ...actual production.
Well, that CA average that PFR has come up with....and which I am basing this all on is supposed to be based purely on Production, not on efficiency. Fouts has a 122 production score, Anderson a 121.
Now, I don't begin to claim how that all works mathematically....because as you said, the pure volume numbers favor Fouts, but the CA has them even.
But here is one easy stat where Anderson is better: Winning. Fouts was barely over .500 (86-84-1). Anderson beat him head to head in the most important game that counted.
And, I would wager that if Anderson had won that SB, which was a close game, he probably would be in the HOF now. One win in one game would have been enough to get him in.
Fair to say?
43k yards versus 32k yards is huge, as is 254 TDs to 197. Fouts has Hall of Fame production. Systems don't make the HOF, the players that execute them do.
I agree and disagree somewhat: A QB in the right system for him who executes it very well can produce. But that same QB in another system could suck. Joe Montana and Steve Young were masters of the WCO. And really, so was Jeff Garcia. But when Garcia was taken out of that system....he was really no good. If Young say had gone to Tampa Bay....he may have never been in the system he was so good at and may have never put up the quality numbers that he did. He may have been Jeff Garcia with the Browns.
Fouts is absoulely in my Hall, Anderson is absolutely not.
Also, pure production isn't the only thing. Drew Bledsoe and Vinny Testaverde have better numbers probably than 75% of the QBs that are in the HOF.
Zombo
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login