Quarterbacks matter
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Of course the fact that Quarterbacks matter in the success of a team is not news to any of you. It is just this year, despite a couple of anomalies, it is the team's with clearly the Best QBs that are going to be into the playoffs.
Look at the AFC. Which teams with which QBs are in the hunt for the playoff? Those with the consensus best QBs:
Brady with New EnglandManning with Denver
Luck with Indy
BR with Pitt
Flacco with Baltimore
Rivers with San Diego
Dalton is perhaps an anomaly.....but with him it is like having the little girl with the curl, when he is good he is very good, but when he is bad he is horrid.
Those with bad QBs or rookies are in the bottom group:
Jax with rookie Bortles
Oakland with rookie Derek Carr
Tenn. with rookie Zack Mettenberg
Jets with Geno Smith who doesn't seem to be making it.
Some teams with QB upheavals or with QBs not considered to be elite in any way are teams on the cusp of the playoffs, but look to be out
KC with Alex SmithMiami with Tannehill
Buffalo with Kyle Orton
Houston with 3 different QBs
Cleveland with Hoyer/Manziel
In the NFC, it is the great to good QBs that have their teams in it:
Green Bay with Rodger
Detroit with Stafford
New Orleans with Brees (he does have his team in it despite the record)
Seattle with Wilson
Dallas with Romo....who is have a good year
Though one team with a very unfortunate QB situation is still on top: Arizona....definitely an anomaly.
Philly is in it though their QB situation is in flux.
Some teams with QBs that many think are elite are not doing that well:
NY Giants with Eli
Carolina with Newton
Atlanta with Ryan.
San Fran with Kaepernick
A couple of teams with QB disappointments are disappointing:
Washington with RGIII
Chicago with Cutler
And three teams with rookies or no real QB
Minnesota with Bridgewater
St. Louis with ???? it ain't gonna be Bradford.
Tampa with ??? Glennon/McCown?
I will state this however: it does seem that it is the AFC that has more of a disparity between older proven elite QBs and younger rookie unproven QBs.
And it may be a couple of those AFC teams that get a hold of Mariota and Winston....unless Tampa gets one.
So that would be more competition with new young QBs for the Browns and JFF, fair to say?
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The above begs the question of: Who would I like to see succeed?
Well, I am tired of the old chestnuts ( AFC: Brady/BR/Peyton) Besides the Browns I would like to see Rivers in SD and Smith in KC step it up a level and overthrow that previous group.
In the NFC I would like to see Stafford finally do what he is supposed to be capable of doing. Plus the guys in Philly.
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Talk in Tampa is Jameis or Mariotta. But these great quarterbacks like Brady and Luck have the luxury of playing the Jets, Buffalo, Miami, Jacksonville, Texas, and Tennessee twice a year. We should have beat Luck. Our defense played well and he stunk the whole game. Too bad we fell apart this year. There's an article on ESPN that quotes Bitonio's view of miscommunication on the O Line and talks about the injuries. If anything Pettine will be a better coach for the future. Things don't come easy in the NFL and our plug in play due to injuries finally took its toll.
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Talk in Tampa is Jameis or Mariotta. But these great quarterbacks like Brady and Luck have the luxury of playing the Jets, Buffalo, Miami, Jacksonville, Texas, and Tennessee twice a year. We should have beat Luck. Our defense played well and he stunk the whole game. Too bad we fell apart this year. There's an article on ESPN that quotes Bitonio's view of miscommunication on the O Line and talks about the injuries. If anything Pettine will be a better coach for the future. Things don't come easy in the NFL and our plug in play due to injuries finally took its toll.
Talk in Tampa is Jameis or Mariotta. But these great quarterbacks like Brady and Luck have the luxury of playing the Jets, Buffalo, Miami, Jacksonville, Texas, and Tennessee twice a year. We should have beat Luck. Our defense played well and he stunk the whole game. Too bad we fell apart this year. There's an article on ESPN that quotes Bitonio's view of miscommunication on the O Line and talks about the injuries. If anything Pettine will be a better coach for the future. Things don't come easy in the NFL and our plug in play due to injuries finally took its toll.
I sure hope they don't quit in the next two games. At least play spoiler!
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Sure quarterbacks matter.
Fact number 2 most teams that draft a quarterback in the first round suck. And there are probably other reasons than the quarterback for that.
Fact number 3 a decent quarterback on a damn good team looks like a great quarterback while a decent quarterback on a terrible team looks like shit.
WSS
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VesnaKociper said:
Gipper,
here is my take. You know how much emphasis I place on the QB. I believe a great QB provides a lift to the entire team. Not just TDs, but less time on the field for the D, faith in come behind wins. I think a guy like Brady or Manning does a lot for the entire team. Is Hoyer that caliber guy? I think there is a more important issue here.
I always used to beat the Steeler fans up because they had Neil O'dumbell and Kordell Stewart. Nobody every really thought either of those guys we the end-all QB. For ahilwe fans gave them the benefit of the doubt, but all along, Cowher had impressive, physical teams and despite playoff heartbreak, kept a core team going until they pilfered Big Ben in pick #11.
I think Hoyer is at least as goof as those two guys were, and while we search for our stud, we could do a hell of a lot worse than Hoyer. Hell, we DID do worse, we got Manziel.
Very well. I guess my entire point is that in reality there are probably only really 10-12 really outstanding QBs that play in the NFL at any given time. (I suspect if you went back to the 90s/80s/70s/60s etc. that you would find in those eras only about 1/4th or 1/3rd of the teams as having a really good to outstanding QB). And my other point is that a team can be somewhat lucky (or have a really astute evaluator) to get one of those QBs. The Browns have not gotten "that guy" since they took Bernie in the 1985 Supplemental draft. That is now 30 years without getting a guy.....and there have been numerous attempts. Johnny Football is the 4th first round QB we have picked since then. I mean, are we going to bat goose eggs in all that time with these picks? The Seahawks got a gem in the third round.....in Wilson. Pats got supremely lucky in the 6th round. A guy like Montana goes in the third round.
What do we get in the 3rd to 6th rounds? Charlie Frye, Colt McCoy, Luke McCown, Spergon Wynn, Eric Zeier.
I guess I am saying that getting that guy....that QB that has it is a lot of luck.
As the old saying goes, if it weren't for bad luck the Browns would have no luck at all (at picking QBs)
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VesnaKociper said:
Gipper,
here is my take. You know how much emphasis I place on the QB. I believe a great QB provides a lift to the entire team. Not just TDs, but less time on the field for the D, faith in come behind wins. I think a guy like Brady or Manning does a lot for the entire team. Is Hoyer that caliber guy? I think there is a more important issue here.
I always used to beat the Steeler fans up because they had Neil O'dumbell and Kordell Stewart. Nobody every really thought either of those guys we the end-all QB. For ahilwe fans gave them the benefit of the doubt, but all along, Cowher had impressive, physical teams and despite playoff heartbreak, kept a core team going until they pilfered Big Ben in pick #11.
I think Hoyer is at least as goof as those two guys were, and while we search for our stud, we could do a hell of a lot worse than Hoyer. Hell, we DID do worse, we got Manziel.
Very well. I guess my entire point is that in reality there are probably only really 10-12 really outstanding QBs that play in the NFL at any given time. (I suspect if you went back to the 90s/80s/70s/60s etc. that you would find in those eras only about 1/4th or 1/3rd of the teams as having a really good to outstanding QB). And my other point is that a team can be somewhat lucky (or have a really astute evaluator) to get one of those QBs. The Browns have not gotten "that guy" since they took Bernie in the 1985 Supplemental draft. That is now 30 years without getting a guy.....and there have been numerous attempts. Johnny Football is the 4th first round QB we have picked since then. I mean, are we going to bat goose eggs in all that time with these picks? The Seahawks got a gem in the third round.....in Wilson. Pats got supremely lucky in the 6th round. A guy like Montana goes in the third round.
What do we get in the 3rd to 6th rounds? Charlie Frye, Colt McCoy, Luke McCown, Spergon Wynn, Eric Zeier.
I guess I am saying that getting that guy....that QB that has it is a lot of luck.
As the old saying goes, if it weren't for bad luck the Browns would have no luck at all (at picking QBs)
I guess I am saying that getting that guy....that QB that has it is a lot of luck.
As the old saying goes, if it weren't for bad luck the Browns would have no luck at all (at picking QBs)
I agree 100% with the luck part....you have to get lucky with who you pick in the later rounds....or get lucky by having "the" pick when one of the rare "cant missers" comes along......and its not often that they come along or you have the pick....
I tried to remember how many QB's coming out were honestly considered cant miss type prospects.....and by that I mean there had to be a consensus on them (by everyone) that they would be successful....
Every year there are guys we all debate....but very few we all say "yes, THAT guy for sure"....
So, I went back 50 years and only came up with 5 QB's "I remember" as being cant miss picks that basically EVERYONE agreed would be great pros and had few(if no) detractors. All the rest, everyone of them, were debated, had flaws and, though they may have been rated highly, were still not consensus.....
My 5....> Bert Jones(73), John Elway(83), Jeff George(90), Peyton Manning(98), Andrew Luck(2012)
The odds of having that pick the one time per decade it happens....is extremely slim...... So, you pick and hope for the best....
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I guess I am saying that getting that guy....that QB that has it is a lot of luck.
As the old saying goes, if it weren't for bad luck the Browns would have no luck at all (at picking QBs)
I agree 100% with the luck part....you have to get lucky with who you pick in the later rounds....or get lucky by having "the" pick when one of the rare "cant missers" comes along......and its not often that they come along or you have the pick....
I tried to remember how many QB's coming out were honestly considered cant miss type prospects.....and by that I mean there had to be a consensus on them (by everyone) that they would be successful....
Every year there are guys we all debate....but very few we all say "yes, THAT guy for sure"....
So, I went back 50 years and only came up with 5 QB's "I remember" as being cant miss picks that basically EVERYONE agreed would be great pros and had few(if no) detractors. All the rest, everyone of them, were debated, had flaws and, though they may have been rated highly, were still not consensus.....
My 5....> Bert Jones(73), John Elway(83), Jeff George(90), Peyton Manning(98), Andrew Luck(2012)
The odds of having that pick the one time per decade it happens....is extremely slim...... So, you pick and hope for the best....
I agree 100% with the luck part....you have to get lucky with who you pick in the later rounds....or get lucky by having "the" pick when one of the rare "cant missers" comes along......and its not often that they come along or you have the pick....
I tried to remember how many QB's coming out were honestly considered cant miss type prospects.....and by that I mean there had to be a consensus on them (by everyone) that they would be successful....
Every year there are guys we all debate....but very few we all say "yes, THAT guy for sure"....
So, I went back 50 years and only came up with 5 QB's "I remember" as being cant miss picks that basically EVERYONE agreed would be great pros and had few(if no) detractors. All the rest, everyone of them, were debated, had flaws and, though they may have been rated highly, were still not consensus.....
My 5....> Bert Jones(73), John Elway(83), Jeff George(90), Peyton Manning(98), Andrew Luck(2012)
The odds of having that pick the one time per decade it happens....is extremely slim...... So, you pick and hope for the best....
And even with those.....you had one miss....in George.
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Interesting thread Gip, I agree with how you bracketed those QB's- makes sense. Eventually the luck will come around and you will find your franchise QB, which I think is just what this team needs to really step it up. This year showed so much promise, if given a franchise QB who knows how far you would have gone this year.
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I guess I am saying that getting that guy....that QB that has it is a lot of luck.
As the old saying goes, if it weren't for bad luck the Browns would have no luck at all (at picking QBs)
I agree 100% with the luck part....you have to get lucky with who you pick in the later rounds....or get lucky by having "the" pick when one of the rare "cant missers" comes along......and its not often that they come along or you have the pick....
I tried to remember how many QB's coming out were honestly considered cant miss type prospects.....and by that I mean there had to be a consensus on them (by everyone) that they would be successful....
Every year there are guys we all debate....but very few we all say "yes, THAT guy for sure"....
So, I went back 50 years and only came up with 5 QB's "I remember" as being cant miss picks that basically EVERYONE agreed would be great pros and had few(if no) detractors. All the rest, everyone of them, were debated, had flaws and, though they may have been rated highly, were still not consensus.....
My 5....> Bert Jones(73), John Elway(83), Jeff George(90), Peyton Manning(98), Andrew Luck(2012)
The odds of having that pick the one time per decade it happens....is extremely slim...... So, you pick and hope for the best....
I agree 100% with the luck part....you have to get lucky with who you pick in the later rounds....or get lucky by having "the" pick when one of the rare "cant missers" comes along......and its not often that they come along or you have the pick....
I tried to remember how many QB's coming out were honestly considered cant miss type prospects.....and by that I mean there had to be a consensus on them (by everyone) that they would be successful....
Every year there are guys we all debate....but very few we all say "yes, THAT guy for sure"....
So, I went back 50 years and only came up with 5 QB's "I remember" as being cant miss picks that basically EVERYONE agreed would be great pros and had few(if no) detractors. All the rest, everyone of them, were debated, had flaws and, though they may have been rated highly, were still not consensus.....
My 5....> Bert Jones(73), John Elway(83), Jeff George(90), Peyton Manning(98), Andrew Luck(2012)
The odds of having that pick the one time per decade it happens....is extremely slim...... So, you pick and hope for the best....
It's funny that all five of your can't miss qb's were drafted by the Colts franchise. Almost kind of spooky...
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I agree 100% with the luck part....you have to get lucky with who you pick in the later rounds....or get lucky by having "the" pick when one of the rare "cant missers" comes along......and its not often that they come along or you have the pick....
I tried to remember how many QB's coming out were honestly considered cant miss type prospects.....and by that I mean there had to be a consensus on them (by everyone) that they would be successful....
Every year there are guys we all debate....but very few we all say "yes, THAT guy for sure"....
So, I went back 50 years and only came up with 5 QB's "I remember" as being cant miss picks that basically EVERYONE agreed would be great pros and had few(if no) detractors. All the rest, everyone of them, were debated, had flaws and, though they may have been rated highly, were still not consensus.....
My 5....> Bert Jones(73), John Elway(83), Jeff George(90), Peyton Manning(98), Andrew Luck(2012)
The odds of having that pick the one time per decade it happens....is extremely slim...... So, you pick and hope for the best....
It's funny that all five of your can't miss qb's were drafted by the Colts franchise. Almost kind of spooky...
It's funny that all five of your can't miss qb's were drafted by the Colts franchise. Almost kind of spooky...
Makes you wonder.....the odds have to be millions to 1 for that to happen
They went 10-6, then 2-12 & got Luck, then went back to 10-6.....how does that happen?
And before you tell me they tanked, tell me how you get 54+ players to lay down & have intentionally bad years, just so you can draft someone.....
Nope...something stinks bad in Indy....
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Well, we could tank this week and move up at least a couple spots in next years draft....
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Of the 11 Qb's you have listed at the top of the conferences
7 were high first round picks.. I include the rapist at pick 11 there
1 at the top of the 2nd round
1 in the middle of the 3rd round
1 in the 6th round
1 undrafted
So I guess they can be found anywhere, but at the top of the 1st round they are found WAY more often
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Not only that, but what if we started seeing improvement with Luck under the old regime of the Walrus and Shurmur? Sorry but I'm glad they are behind us. Luck might've been another Couch if they were still here running the show. All speculation. Let it go and look forward.
On the QB subject, things like Manziel picks should be avoided in the future with the new FO too. I don't like what I've heard about Mariota and Winston. One is supposedly another diva "look-at-me" and party-boy, before he ever takes a snap in the NFL? If he really looks promising for the NFL without much risk, ok then maybe. Except I don't want to see the Browns getting that type of attention with yet another diva QB. The other is another Rapistberger...except we don't know how well he'll do in the NFL. All we know for sure is he's been accused of rape. Stay away from that. Far away.
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I agree 100% with the luck part....you have to get lucky with who you pick in the later rounds....or get lucky by having "the" pick when one of the rare "cant missers" comes along......and its not often that they come along or you have the pick....
I tried to remember how many QB's coming out were honestly considered cant miss type prospects.....and by that I mean there had to be a consensus on them (by everyone) that they would be successful....
Every year there are guys we all debate....but very few we all say "yes, THAT guy for sure"....
So, I went back 50 years and only came up with 5 QB's "I remember" as being cant miss picks that basically EVERYONE agreed would be great pros and had few(if no) detractors. All the rest, everyone of them, were debated, had flaws and, though they may have been rated highly, were still not consensus.....
My 5....> Bert Jones(73), John Elway(83), Jeff George(90), Peyton Manning(98), Andrew Luck(2012)
The odds of having that pick the one time per decade it happens....is extremely slim...... So, you pick and hope for the best....
It's funny that all five of your can't miss qb's were drafted by the Colts franchise. Almost kind of spooky...
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@junkyard-dawg said:
Consider a few things....
1: Remember when D.A. had us on the cusp of Playoffs and the Queen fanclub was blowing the N.D. Princess? Remember we needed the Colts to win to make the Playoffs. The Colts rested their starters and tanked, and Dungy admitted gave a wink wink to I forget who it was, but it was the team we needed to lose. Dungy admitted they had a gentleman's agreement to rest their starters and put no effort into winning.
2: Iray alluded to throwing the season several times in the Media until the NFL started threatening to crack down on teams trying to throw games. Obviously they wouldn't say that if they weren't suspecting Indy of doing so.
The Colts tanked, period. All it takes is impacting one or two people to throw things outa wack. Besides they threw Painter to the wolves and didn't even try to get an upgrade for the season.
The English Premiere soccer league has a solution to this: its called relegation. Essentially, the teams that finish in the bottom 3 in the league get demoted to the high minor leagues, and the best teams in the high minor league get put into the big league for the following year.
We don't have any relegation in American sports.....but it could help with all this losing on purpose....suck for Luck BS. The same would go in basketball.
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Not only that, but what if we started seeing improvement with Luck under the old regime of the Walrus and Shurmur? Sorry but I'm glad they are behind us. Luck might've been another Couch if they were still here running the show. All speculation. Let it go and look forward.
On the QB subject, things like Manziel picks should be avoided in the future with the new FO too. I don't like what I've heard about Mariota and Winston. One is supposedly another diva "look-at-me" and party-boy, before he ever takes a snap in the NFL? If he really looks promising for the NFL without much risk, ok then maybe. Except I don't want to see the Browns getting that type of attention with yet another diva QB. The other is another Rapistberger...except we don't know how well he'll do in the NFL. All we know for sure is he's been accused of rape. Stay away from that. Far away.
Not only that, but what if we started seeing improvement with Luck under the old regime of the Walrus and Shurmur? Sorry but I'm glad they are behind us. Luck might've been another Couch if they were still here running the show. All speculation. Let it go and look forward.
On the QB subject, things like Manziel picks should be avoided in the future with the new FO too. I don't like what I've heard about Mariota and Winston. One is supposedly another diva "look-at-me" and party-boy, before he ever takes a snap in the NFL? If he really looks promising for the NFL without much risk, ok then maybe. Except I don't want to see the Browns getting that type of attention with yet another diva QB. The other is another Rapistberger...except we don't know how well he'll do in the NFL. All we know for sure is he's been accused of rape. Stay away from that. Far away.
And convicted of crab leg shoplifting.
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