We need a Hard Hitting Safety
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So, what you are saying is there is, except for Delmas, a whole bunch of Sean Jones's available in the second round. But, they are healthy and hit harder.
I know it doesn't seem like it, but Jones actually was one of those combo guys. He was listed as a FS coming out of college and that's the position he's expected to play in Philly. Sure, injuries have affected his play, but I don't think playing better than a seriously hobbled Jones is anything to write home about.
Steuber's analysis of Moore says he has hard hitting tackling ability and he is very good defending in coverage. Never could accuse Sean Jones of being a good cover man.
If you go back & read scouting reports on Jones from when he was coming out of college, a lot of them talk about his great burst, body control, and fluid backpedal. A lot of good things were said about his coverage ability.
As for Moore - sorry, just don't see it. I know that some Mizzou fans criticize former DC/current Browns LB coach Matt Eberflus for playing him closer to the line this year. But it's not a good sign when a DB gets burned by slower receivers or is too tight-hipped to make plays in run support.
I'm kind of surprised that you like him so much; of all the prospects, he's the most similar to Sean Jones. As Mike Mayock says, Moore had a "Jekyll and Hyde" college career in which he looked like a top prospect his junior season but mostly played like a 5th rounder last year. That reminds me a lot of Jones.
Chung and Vaughn are weak in coverage, but that doesn't mean they can't cover, they didn't have to in college. They played in the box or dropped into the middle in zone coverage. Neither of their teams played a lot of cover 2
The first clip of Chung above shows him having some trouble in coverage. I think one of his biggest problems is that he doesn't change directions all too well.
Vaughn reportedly looked stiff during DB drills at his pro day. He also doesn't have great instincts, which hinders his ability to tap into his good athleticism.
This draft doesn't have a Sean Taylor or Reed but it has 4 or 5 very solid guys that could step right in as a starter for us and many other teams and grow into stars in this league. As much negative as you can find there is a whole lot of positive about these guys.
Just don't know who those 4 or 5 guys are. I guess you could start some of these guys immediately, but they're going to struggle like hell.
Just to add in an outside perspective, here's how theOBR's Brent "Sobo" Sobleski grades some of the top strong safety prospects:
- Patrick Chung - #54 (mid-late 2nd round)
- Kevin Ellison - #79 (mid 3rd round)
- Stephen Hodge - #86 (mid-late 3rd round)
- William Moore - #94 (late 3rd round)
- Chip Vaughn - #118 (mid-late 4th round)
- Michael Hamlin - #196 (early 7th round)
- Courtney Greene - #290 (UDFA)
Aloysius said:
I know it doesn't seem like it, but Jones actually was one of those combo guys. He was listed as a FS coming out of college and that's the position he's expected to play in Philly. Sure, injuries have affected his play, but I don't think playing better than a seriously hobbled Jones is anything to write home about.If you go back & read scouting reports on Jones from when he was coming out of college, a lot of them talk about his great burst, body control, and fluid backpedal. A lot of good things were said about his coverage ability.
As for Moore - sorry, just don't see it. I know that some Mizzou fans criticize former DC/current Browns LB coach Matt Eberflus for playing him closer to the line this year. But it's not a good sign when a DB gets burned by slower receivers or is too tight-hipped to make plays in run support.
I'm kind of surprised that you like him so much; of all the prospects, he's the most similar to Sean Jones. As Mike Mayock says, Moore had a "Jekyll and Hyde" college career in which he looked like a top prospect his junior season but mostly played like a 5th rounder last year. That reminds me a lot of Jones.
The first clip of Chung above shows him having some trouble in coverage. I think one of his biggest problems is that he doesn't change directions all too well.
Vaughn reportedly looked stiff during DB drills at his pro day. He also doesn't have great instincts, which hinders his ability to tap into his good athleticism.
Just don't know who those 4 or 5 guys are. I guess you could start some of these guys immediately, but they're going to struggle like hell.
Just to add in an outside perspective, here's how theOBR's Brent "Sobo" Sobleski grades some of the top strong safety prospects:
- Patrick Chung - #54 (mid-late 2nd round)
- Kevin Ellison - #79 (mid 3rd round)
- Stephen Hodge - #86 (mid-late 3rd round)
- William Moore - #94 (late 3rd round)
- Chip Vaughn - #118 (mid-late 4th round)
- Michael Hamlin - #196 (early 7th round)
- Courtney Greene - #290 (UDFA)
Well, this time of year you can get 10 different opinions of the draft status of these players. Some say Dalmas and Moore could be 1st rounders. So, we'll see how they fall and they end up players or not. Personally, Delmas, Moore, Chung and Vaughn are all better then Jones and would be a major upgrade.
For what it's worth, Scouts.com has William Moore as the #45 player in the whole draft and #1 safety in the draft. Of course that isn't counting guys like Jenkins that most likely will end up as a safety.
Delmas #53 player in the draft
Chung #68 player in the draft
So, opinions are wide ranging and speculative, at best. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. fftoolbox.com list Moore as a 1st round pick, draftcountdown.com list him as a 1st rounder, walterfootball.com say Delmas and Moore are late 1st rounders or top of 2nd round. Their mock has Chung going first and Delmas to Cleveland and Moore to Atlanta in round 2. ESPN has Delmas as the #30 player in the draft.
You can google and find 50 places and all have different opinions. Some list both Delmas and Moore as FS. Chung is a pure SS, but every site I looked at had all three gone by the end of round two.
Hey, JMO
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In fairness Y-town, Jones was good when he was roaming free in a zone. But terrible when asked to play man.
Masters said:
In fairness Y-town, Jones was good when he was roaming free in a zone. But terrible when asked to play man.again, JMO, but Jones was a good SS when he had two good legs and never was a good cover guy. He hung McDonald and Wright out to dry way too many times last year when he couldn't get back to help in coverage. When he played deep in a cover 3 scheme he did do well but then again that isn't what you really need from a SS.
But, I respect your opinion.
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Sure, you can find varying opinions on these guys. The important thing is to find guys/sites you really respect and to take their opinions into account.
But I still don't see why you're high on all of these guys. Yes, beauty is in the eye of beholder, but when did these guys show you anything special? I've looked hard, and Delmas is the only one who's really impressed me. And because I haven't seen a lot of him, I can't really say whether he's going to be a good pro.
Moore, at times, looks like a solid player, but he also can look absolutely horrible. There's a reason why Geech doesn't think he's a first round type and why JD & others think he's a better fit at linebacker. He had a good combine and pro day, but that doesn't erase the 5th round play he exhibited last season.
Chung is a very good tackler, but I think his lack of size & explosion will prevent him from being an enforcer in the secondary type. He's a smaller James Sanders - adequate, but nothing special.
Because of that, I think some of the Day Two guys may offer better value. But - as I said - we may need to take a safety high. And that's unfortunate.
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Sure, you can find varying opinions on these guys. The important thing is to find guys/sites you really respect and to take their opinions into account.
But I still don't see why you're high on all of these guys. Yes, beauty is in the eye of beholder, but when did these guys show you anything special? I've looked hard, and Delmas is the only one who's really impressed me. And because I haven't seen a lot of him, I can't really say whether he's going to be a good pro.
Moore, at times, looks like a solid player, but he also can look absolutely horrible. There's a reason why Geech doesn't think he's a first round type and why JD & others think he's a better fit at linebacker. He had a good combine and pro day, but that doesn't erase the 5th round play he exhibited last season.
Chung is a very good tackler, but I think his lack of size & explosion will prevent him from being an enforcer in the secondary type. He's a smaller James Sanders - adequate, but nothing special.
Because of that, I think some of the Day Two guys may offer better value. But - as I said - we may need to take a safety high. And that's unfortunate.
Aloysius said:
.But - as I said - we may need to take a safety high. And that's unfortunate.
Amen.
For me that is a shame when day 1 is solid through so many other positions.
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Anybody else here think there's a good chance EM might think Adams is good enough for now, pass on a safety in the draft and hope one gets cut on roster trimdowns we could use?
It's just when you're hurting all over and Adams did decent PLUS there's a good crop next draft it makes you wonder if we'll hold out one more year to snag one that's an "impact" player instead of just "good enough."
I'm sorry I just don't see a safety this draft that could fit that Polyneedsahaircut/ Ed Reed mold for us and just because you need something when you have a wide variety of needs you take the best players that have the best chance at becoming long term starters for you.
3 seasons until our new head coach, let's hope they get it right this time. -
Anybody else here think there's a good chance EM might think Adams is good enough for now, pass on a safety in the draft and hope one gets cut on roster trimdowns we could use?
It's just when you're hurting all over and Adams did decent PLUS there's a good crop next draft it makes you wonder if we'll hold out one more year to snag one that's an "impact" player instead of just "good enough."
I'm sorry I just don't see a safety this draft that could fit that Polyneedsahaircut/ Ed Reed mold for us and just because you need something when you have a wide variety of needs you take the best players that have the best chance at becoming long term starters for you.
Anybody else here think there's a good chance EM might think Adams is good enough for now, pass on a safety in the draft and hope one gets cut on roster trimdowns we could use?
I think that makes a lot of sense.....There will have to be a decent SS available when teams make some cuts.
Although I still think they'll draft a safety for depth. Hopefully it's round 4 or 6 and not early.
I wish we had a 5th round pick I think MSU's Otis Wiley would be a nice 5th rounder.
Maybe EM likes Nick Sorenson?
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Anybody else here think there's a good chance EM might think Adams is good enough for now, pass on a safety in the draft and hope one gets cut on roster trimdowns we could use?
I think that makes a lot of sense.....There will have to be a decent SS available when teams make some cuts.
Although I still think they'll draft a safety for depth. Hopefully it's round 4 or 6 and not early.
I wish we had a 5th round pick I think MSU's Otis Wiley would be a nice 5th rounder.
Maybe EM likes Nick Sorenson?
I wish we had a 5th round pick I think MSU's Otis Wiley would be a nice 5th rounder.
Interesting - he's a guy I've been trying to get a handle on. Seems like durability and consistency are big issues for him, but he has the talent to be a decent player.
His 40 time at his pro day was unimpressive (4.64), but that may not be such an issue. Mangini's got a history of drafting safeties who compensate for poor long speed by having good to great short area quickness. When he was DC in New England, they drafted James Sanders, who ran a 4.65 40 but also had a great 4.02 shuttle time. And when he took over in New York, he drafted Eric Smith, who ran a 4.63 40 at the Combine but had a freakish 3.97 shuttle time at his pro day.
There doesn't seem to be a guy who fits the same profile this year - Wiley's shuttle time was an average 4.34. Not sure if he plays with good short area quicks - my only memory is of him falling on his ass on the first play from scrimmage in the Florida Atlantic game, resulting in a TD. But I'm guessing he's a better player than that would seem to indicate.
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Anybody else here think there's a good chance EM might think Adams is good enough for now, pass on a safety in the draft and hope one gets cut on roster trimdowns we could use?
It's just when you're hurting all over and Adams did decent PLUS there's a good crop next draft it makes you wonder if we'll hold out one more year to snag one that's an "impact" player instead of just "good enough."
I'm sorry I just don't see a safety this draft that could fit that Polyneedsahaircut/ Ed Reed mold for us and just because you need something when you have a wide variety of needs you take the best players that have the best chance at becoming long term starters for you.
Anybody else here think there's a good chance EM might think Adams is good enough for now, pass on a safety in the draft and hope one gets cut on roster trimdowns we could use?
It's just when you're hurting all over and Adams did decent PLUS there's a good crop next draft it makes you wonder if we'll hold out one more year to snag one that's an "impact" player instead of just "good enough."
I'm sorry I just don't see a safety this draft that could fit that Polyneedsahaircut/ Ed Reed mold for us and just because you need something when you have a wide variety of needs you take the best players that have the best chance at becoming long term starters for you.
Pool is adaquate, at best, and one concussion away from the end of his career. Adams is a backup FS and a very good special teams player. I would hope EM is looking for a safety or we are in deep shit. When you go thin at a position and have an injury, like we did at CB last year, you end up with a guy like Cousins. If they bring in Milloy then I would be willing to wait until next year.
My question is why do you think we would be in line for an impact SS next year? Steubers, who Alo quotes and thinks is on top of things says Moore is stud SS who blew people away on his pro day. This was a top 10 pick until he played hurt most of his senior year. He is now healthy again. Kiper thinks Delmas is a first rounder this year. So, why again would you want to wait until next year?
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Anybody else here think there's a good chance EM might think Adams is good enough for now, pass on a safety in the draft and hope one gets cut on roster trimdowns we could use?
It's just when you're hurting all over and Adams did decent PLUS there's a good crop next draft it makes you wonder if we'll hold out one more year to snag one that's an "impact" player instead of just "good enough."
I'm sorry I just don't see a safety this draft that could fit that Polyneedsahaircut/ Ed Reed mold for us and just because you need something when you have a wide variety of needs you take the best players that have the best chance at becoming long term starters for you.
Pool is adaquate, at best, and one concussion away from the end of his career. Adams is a backup FS and a very good special teams player. I would hope EM is looking for a safety or we are in deep shit. When you go thin at a position and have an injury, like we did at CB last year, you end up with a guy like Cousins. If they bring in Milloy then I would be willing to wait until next year.
My question is why do you think we would be in line for an impact SS next year? Steubers, who Alo quotes and thinks is on top of things says Moore is stud SS who blew people away on his pro day. This was a top 10 pick until he played hurt most of his senior year. He is now healthy again. Kiper thinks Delmas is a first rounder this year. So, why again would you want to wait until next year?
Pool is adaquate, at best, and one concussion away from the end of his career. Adams is a backup FS and a very good special teams player. I would hope EM is looking for a safety or we are in deep shit. When you go thin at a position and have an injury, like we did at CB last year, you end up with a guy like Cousins. If they bring in Milloy then I would be willing to wait until next year.
My question is why do you think we would be in line for an impact SS next year? Steubers, who Alo quotes and thinks is on top of things says Moore is stud SS who blew people away on his pro day. This was a top 10 pick until he played hurt most of his senior year. He is now healthy again. Kiper thinks Delmas is a first rounder this year. So, why again would you want to wait until next year?
Why?
Because if you have a bonified pass rush you can get by without the best guys at safety or corner instead of going secondary, secondary, secondary and wondering why the hell we can't cover wrs when the opposing qb can take a nap before he throws the ball.
Working on stopping the run and providing a pass rush will do MORE for us than burning a pick on another secondary (which we need, I'll admit) we can FIX the core of the problem and then when we add in another safety he won't have to be a flat out stud to get the job done.
Really, you can have the 4 best guys in the league back in coverage but if an average qb is given all day he'll pick you apart, and we've been getting picked apart too damn long.
Right now I'll be happy with 2 linebackers (1 starter, 1 ready to start next season split reps this one), a center (start by next season, split reps this season), a defensive end (ready to start by next season, split reps this season) and maybe a wr (big guy, soft hands 3rd down kind of guy), guard (2 season project) or rb (low center of gravity, ground pounder, single cut hits the hole then goes straight) to go along with them.
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I wish we had a 5th round pick I think MSU's Otis Wiley would be a nice 5th rounder.
Interesting - he's a guy I've been trying to get a handle on. Seems like durability and consistency are big issues for him, but he has the talent to be a decent player.
His 40 time at his pro day was unimpressive (4.64), but that may not be such an issue. Mangini's got a history of drafting safeties who compensate for poor long speed by having good to great short area quickness. When he was DC in New England, they drafted James Sanders, who ran a 4.65 40 but also had a great 4.02 shuttle time. And when he took over in New York, he drafted Eric Smith, who ran a 4.63 40 at the Combine but had a freakish 3.97 shuttle time at his pro day.
There doesn't seem to be a guy who fits the same profile this year - Wiley's shuttle time was an average 4.34. Not sure if he plays with good short area quicks - my only memory is of him falling on his ass on the first play from scrimmage in the Florida Atlantic game, resulting in a TD. But I'm guessing he's a better player than that would seem to indicate.
Aloysius said:
Interesting - he's a guy I've been trying to get a handle on. Seems like durability and consistency are big issues for him, but he has the talent to be a decent player.His 40 time at his pro day was unimpressive (4.64), but that may not be such an issue. Mangini's got a history of drafting safeties who compensate for poor long speed by having good to great short area quickness. When he was DC in New England, they drafted James Sanders, who ran a 4.65 40 but also had a great 4.02 shuttle time. And when he took over in New York, he drafted Eric Smith, who ran a 4.63 40 at the Combine but had a freakish 3.97 shuttle time at his pro day.
There doesn't seem to be a guy who fits the same profile this year - Wiley's shuttle time was an average 4.34. Not sure if he plays with good short area quicks - my only memory is of him falling on his ass on the first play from scrimmage in the Florida Atlantic game, resulting in a TD. But I'm guessing he's a better player than that would seem to indicate.
some of the things I like about him are the non measurables. He had a an awful junior year. Even got benched at one point.Instead of crying about it he worked his butt off and came back to have an outstanding Senior season being named 1st team all Big Ten by both the coaches and the media.
His teammates also named him Captain coming into his senior season.
It's funny you mention the Florida Atlantic game....It ended up being one of his best games as he knocked down four passes that Saturday.
I like the fact that he played both Free safety and SS in college and is really pretty decent in coverge. Beside the pass break ups, he had four INT's his senior year and four INT's his junior year
I think he'd be a steal in the 5th round and really don't think he'll get past it. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Colts grab him near the end of the 4th. Sanders is hurt an awful lot.
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It's interesting that Cleveland is bringing in both Delmas and William Moore for private workouts. They are also bringing in a couple of CB/S combo guys.
I don't think they are satisfied at safety. Mangini says his first priority is to stop the run and you don't do that without a good SS and we don't have one. They have talked to Lawyer Milloy but haven't signed him. That would be a one year fix.
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