D-Line: Where 2 Deep Isn't Too Deep
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Ah. I am now smarter for that. I really didn't know !
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As we know, the volume of injuries to our defensive front really put the challenge to the "play like a Brown" mission in 2014. Nonetheless, guys sucked it up and played hurt or in a technique they probably weren't best suited to succeed in. Rubin is gone while film alley-ooops the reality Phil Taylor should never line up in a 5 technique again. My gut says we should keep at least 7 guys. There's a couple BIG salaries that could very well be factored in to who gets cut as well as ongoing abilities to perform at 100% and show up in shape. I know some people aren't all that thrilled with the type of inside push Ishy Kitchen generates; BUT he played quite a bit when Craig Robertson successfully replaced Karlos Dansby. Is that possible if the NT isn't keeping blockers off him? I think I also remembered reading in here that PFF rated Dansby really high against the run. Ishy was rotating in all year and I get the impression our staff thinks he'd continue to give us fresh legs in the rotation. My hope is Shelton helps us accomplish more 3 and outs so the frequency of needing the backup NT is less. Another thing we can easily do is kick John Hughes inside especially if Cooper and Bryant are rocking outside. A lot of good options available.
I know people and magazines like to focus on who will start; but we're going to go 2 deep not only for situational strengths/specialties but for fresh legs and replenished motors. That means we'll see a whole lotta everybody we keep. I see some great veterans for younger guys to learn from like John Hughes, Randy Starks and Billy Winn. If Des Bryant can get back to the form he showcased before he had that minor heart valve procedure in 2013 - he's applicable to that group as well.
When we go 3 man line - here's what we'll probably start the year off with:
RE: John Hughes (sub) Des Bryant/Xavier Cooper
NT: Danny Shelton (sub) Phil Taylor/Ishmaa'ily Kitchen
LE: Randy Starks (sub) Billy Winn/Xavier Cooper
This could be a 4 man look - I'm stealthing in OLBs (but keeping Orchard standing up for ideal X-stunts)
RE: Des Bryant (subs) Billy Winn/Armonty Bryant
RT: Danny Shelton (subs) Ishmaa'ily Kitchen/Xavier Cooper
LT: Randy Starks (subs) Phil Taylor/Xavier Cooper
LE: Paul Kruger (subs) Billy Winn/Scott Solomon
Understand that positions above are subject to change once we get some games behind us. Please feel free tweak either front as necessary folks. It's just fun to put the names in places we might see them; and discuss some exciting possibilities. This will get a lot easier to place guys as training camp, scrimmages and preseason games separate the doe's from the bucks and the do's from the don'ts. Injuries usually play a role in it all too.
I cannot FREAKIN wait to see Danny Shelton and Xavier Cooper; and I don't feel like saying FREAKIN if ya know what I mean. Sounds like a season long prescription for sic em, sock em and sack em. Game on!
All true, but Cooper seems to me to be a better 4-3 DE candidate than my Billy boy...
When we go 3 man line - here's what we'll probably start the year off with:
RE: John Hughes (sub) Des Bryant/Xavier Cooper
NT: Danny Shelton (sub) Phil Taylor/Ishmaa'ily Kitchen
LE: Randy Starks (sub) Billy Winn/Xavier Cooper
This could be a 4 man look - I'm stealthing in OLBs (but keeping Orchard standing up for ideal X-stunts)
RE: Des Bryant (subs) Billy Winn/Armonty Bryant
RT: Danny Shelton (subs) Ishmaa'ily Kitchen/Xavier Cooper
LT: Randy Starks (subs) Phil Taylor/Xavier Cooper
LE: Paul Kruger (subs) Billy Winn/Scott Solomon
I appreciate your inference case for him, Flugs, but I have trouble seeing Kitchen sticking. Hughes is a more than adequate rotational NT in addition to his DE role. And Kit's departure opens the slot for reported wunderkind Wynn as a pure DE. As you mention contract considerations might raise the possibility of Taylor departing rather than Kit.
In the 3-4 I see:
RE: Desmond Bryant- (sub) Xavier Cooper/Dylan Wynn
NT: Danny Shelton - (sub) Phil Taylor/John Hughes
LE: Randy Starks -- (sub) John Hughes/Billy Winn
In the 4-3:
RE: Scott Solomon- (subs) Armonty Bryant/Dylan Wynn
RT: John Hughes -- (subs) Billy Winn/Danny Shelton
LT: Xavier Cooper- (subs) Randy Starks/Phil Taylor
LE: Paul Kruger -- (subs) Nate Orchard
Man... that looks like a quick, strong, aggressive 4-3 front.
Also looking at the above the name that looks to be in trouble is Armonty's... his value in a 3-4 at either DE or OLB is just not evident.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Whatever they run 4/3, 3/4, hybrid.....I agree that depth now is a key....as last year with so many injuries what turned out to be what we thought was a strength became a weakness. You just can't have like 4 of your top 5 DL sitting on the sideline and expect maximum production.
The scenarios you all point out here look great.....but let's get lucky for once and remove the injury but. Then, yes, like Stacy's mom I think we will have something going on.
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All true, but Cooper seems to me to be a better 4-3 DE candidate than my Billy boy...
When we go 3 man line - here's what we'll probably start the year off with:
RE: John Hughes (sub) Des Bryant/Xavier Cooper
NT: Danny Shelton (sub) Phil Taylor/Ishmaa'ily Kitchen
LE: Randy Starks (sub) Billy Winn/Xavier Cooper
This could be a 4 man look - I'm stealthing in OLBs (but keeping Orchard standing up for ideal X-stunts)
RE: Des Bryant (subs) Billy Winn/Armonty Bryant
RT: Danny Shelton (subs) Ishmaa'ily Kitchen/Xavier Cooper
LT: Randy Starks (subs) Phil Taylor/Xavier Cooper
LE: Paul Kruger (subs) Billy Winn/Scott Solomon
I appreciate your inference case for him, Flugs, but I have trouble seeing Kitchen sticking. Hughes is a more than adequate rotational NT in addition to his DE role. And Kit's departure opens the slot for reported wunderkind Wynn as a pure DE. As you mention contract considerations might raise the possibility of Taylor departing rather than Kit.
In the 3-4 I see:
RE: Desmond Bryant- (sub) Xavier Cooper/Dylan Wynn
NT: Danny Shelton - (sub) Phil Taylor/John Hughes
LE: Randy Starks -- (sub) John Hughes/Billy Winn
In the 4-3:
RE: Scott Solomon- (subs) Armonty Bryant/Dylan Wynn
RT: John Hughes -- (subs) Billy Winn/Danny Shelton
LT: Xavier Cooper- (subs) Randy Starks/Phil Taylor
LE: Paul Kruger -- (subs) Nate Orchard
Man... that looks like a quick, strong, aggressive 4-3 front.
Also looking at the above the name that looks to be in trouble is Armonty's... his value in a 3-4 at either DE or OLB is just not evident.
All true, but Cooper seems to me to be a better 4-3 DE candidate than my Billy boy...
I appreciate your inference case for him, Flugs, but I have trouble seeing Kitchen sticking. Hughes is a more than adequate rotational NT in addition to his DE role. And Kit's departure opens the slot for reported wunderkind Wynn as a pure DE. As you mention contract considerations might raise the possibility of Taylor departing rather than Kit.
In the 3-4 I see:
RE: Desmond Bryant- (sub) Xavier Cooper/Dylan Wynn
NT: Danny Shelton - (sub) Phil Taylor/John Hughes
LE: Randy Starks -- (sub) John Hughes/Billy Winn
In the 4-3:
RE: Scott Solomon- (subs) Armonty Bryant/Dylan Wynn
RT: John Hughes -- (subs) Billy Winn/Danny Shelton
LT: Xavier Cooper- (subs) Randy Starks/Phil Taylor
LE: Paul Kruger -- (subs) Nate Orchard
Man... that looks like a quick, strong, aggressive 4-3 front.
Also looking at the above the name that looks to be in trouble is Armonty's... his value in a 3-4 at either DE or OLB is just not evident.
Coop absolutely has the quickness to play 5 tech in either scheme. As for your 3 man lineup, I can see that or Hughes rotating in at either spot as a de-facto starter. After all, he's our highest rated run stopper on the team. If we're going for a pure 4 hands down (assuming passing down) then you'll be replacing Hughes with Winn or Desmond.
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All true, but Cooper seems to me to be a better 4-3 DE candidate than my Billy boy...
When we go 3 man line - here's what we'll probably start the year off with:
RE: John Hughes (sub) Des Bryant/Xavier Cooper
NT: Danny Shelton (sub) Phil Taylor/Ishmaa'ily Kitchen
LE: Randy Starks (sub) Billy Winn/Xavier Cooper
This could be a 4 man look - I'm stealthing in OLBs (but keeping Orchard standing up for ideal X-stunts)
RE: Des Bryant (subs) Billy Winn/Armonty Bryant
RT: Danny Shelton (subs) Ishmaa'ily Kitchen/Xavier Cooper
LT: Randy Starks (subs) Phil Taylor/Xavier Cooper
LE: Paul Kruger (subs) Billy Winn/Scott Solomon
I appreciate your inference case for him, Flugs, but I have trouble seeing Kitchen sticking. Hughes is a more than adequate rotational NT in addition to his DE role. And Kit's departure opens the slot for reported wunderkind Wynn as a pure DE. As you mention contract considerations might raise the possibility of Taylor departing rather than Kit.
In the 3-4 I see:
RE: Desmond Bryant- (sub) Xavier Cooper/Dylan Wynn
NT: Danny Shelton - (sub) Phil Taylor/John Hughes
LE: Randy Starks -- (sub) John Hughes/Billy Winn
In the 4-3:
RE: Scott Solomon- (subs) Armonty Bryant/Dylan Wynn
RT: John Hughes -- (subs) Billy Winn/Danny Shelton
LT: Xavier Cooper- (subs) Randy Starks/Phil Taylor
LE: Paul Kruger -- (subs) Nate Orchard
Man... that looks like a quick, strong, aggressive 4-3 front.
Also looking at the above the name that looks to be in trouble is Armonty's... his value in a 3-4 at either DE or OLB is just not evident.
All true, but Cooper seems to me to be a better 4-3 DE candidate than my Billy boy...
I appreciate your inference case for him, Flugs, but I have trouble seeing Kitchen sticking. Hughes is a more than adequate rotational NT in addition to his DE role. And Kit's departure opens the slot for reported wunderkind Wynn as a pure DE. As you mention contract considerations might raise the possibility of Taylor departing rather than Kit.
In the 3-4 I see:
RE: Desmond Bryant- (sub) Xavier Cooper/Dylan Wynn
NT: Danny Shelton - (sub) Phil Taylor/John Hughes
LE: Randy Starks -- (sub) John Hughes/Billy Winn
In the 4-3:
RE: Scott Solomon- (subs) Armonty Bryant/Dylan Wynn
RT: John Hughes -- (subs) Billy Winn/Danny Shelton
LT: Xavier Cooper- (subs) Randy Starks/Phil Taylor
LE: Paul Kruger -- (subs) Nate Orchard
Man... that looks like a quick, strong, aggressive 4-3 front.
Also looking at the above the name that looks to be in trouble is Armonty's... his value in a 3-4 at either DE or OLB is just not evident.
Man, this is fun. Those look really good Tour. I really like how you did your 4 man front. In particular, look at the depth of the DTs. Our Defensive Staff is going to have a blast putting together some killer combos. All that kind of makes it easy to see why you feel Kitchen might have trouble making the team.
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All true, but Cooper seems to me to be a better 4-3 DE candidate than my Billy boy...
I appreciate your inference case for him, Flugs, but I have trouble seeing Kitchen sticking. Hughes is a more than adequate rotational NT in addition to his DE role. And Kit's departure opens the slot for reported wunderkind Wynn as a pure DE. As you mention contract considerations might raise the possibility of Taylor departing rather than Kit.
In the 3-4 I see:
RE: Desmond Bryant- (sub) Xavier Cooper/Dylan Wynn
NT: Danny Shelton - (sub) Phil Taylor/John Hughes
LE: Randy Starks -- (sub) John Hughes/Billy Winn
In the 4-3:
RE: Scott Solomon- (subs) Armonty Bryant/Dylan Wynn
RT: John Hughes -- (subs) Billy Winn/Danny Shelton
LT: Xavier Cooper- (subs) Randy Starks/Phil Taylor
LE: Paul Kruger -- (subs) Nate Orchard
Man... that looks like a quick, strong, aggressive 4-3 front.
Also looking at the above the name that looks to be in trouble is Armonty's... his value in a 3-4 at either DE or OLB is just not evident.
Man, this is fun. Those look really good Tour. I really like how you did your 4 man front. In particular, look at the depth of the DTs. Our Defensive Staff is going to have a blast putting together some killer combos. All that kind of makes it easy to see why you feel Kitchen might have trouble making the team.
Man, this is fun. Those look really good Tour. I really like how you did your 4 man front. In particular, look at the depth of the DTs. Our Defensive Staff is going to have a blast putting together some killer combos. All that kind of makes it easy to see why you feel Kitchen might have trouble making the team.
How many DL will they keep on the roster? That 4-3 depth chart puts 11 of them there....but some of those: Kruger/Orchard, could be DE/LB hybrids.
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this Browns defense will be kickass. I can't wait for the football to start.
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Whatever they run 4/3, 3/4, hybrid.....I agree that depth now is a key....as last year with so many injuries what turned out to be what we thought was a strength became a weakness. You just can't have like 4 of your top 5 DL sitting on the sideline and expect maximum production.
The scenarios you all point out here look great.....but let's get lucky for once and remove the injury but. Then, yes, like Stacy's mom I think we will have something going on.
Whatever they run 4/3, 3/4, hybrid.....I agree that depth now is a key....as last year with so many injuries what turned out to be what we thought was a strength became a weakness. You just can't have like 4 of your top 5 DL sitting on the sideline and expect maximum production.
The scenarios you all point out here look great.....but let's get lucky for once and remove the injury but. Then, yes, like Stacy's mom I think we will have something going on.
Try to look at it this way. I've never seen us have 4 of our top 5 defensive linemen standing healthy on the sideline for extended periods between reps. When I went to the TN game - the thing that jumped out at me was how often our big defensive linemen were running on and off the field in every series. And it wasn't like we were all that healthy either. If this year's goal is to improve against the run - the Dline will be prioritized. That's a good thing considering the types of running games we face in the AFC North.
When we predict how many Dline and how many LBers we think they will keep, we're using their positions in the 3-4 (our Base D at least allegedly) even though we will use multiple fronts and occasionally see OLBers used as DEs. I think that's how they get classified by position when they're listed on the active roster as well. Therefore, I'm not including Kruger, Solomon, A. Bryant and Orchard as Dline in the head count of Dlinemen I think we'll keep.
The outrageous volume of injuries to our dline in 2014 has me thinking we'll keep about 7 defensive linemen (and stash a young stud on the practice squad). Part of this planning factors in guys will get dinged up and miss games or play hurt - "play like a Brown."
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I think Phil Taylor is going to be on the field a lot more than you guys are perhaps surmising.
Zombo
Zombo said:
I think Phil Taylor is going to be on the field a lot more than you guys are perhaps surmising.
In what role? Coaches seemed to say Phil's 3-4 DE time was over, so to see significant time he'd have to beat out Shelton at NT. Can't see that, but he might be able to push his way to a "1B" status in a heavy rotation.
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Zombo said:
I think Phil Taylor is going to be on the field a lot more than you guys are perhaps surmising.
In what role? Coaches seemed to say Phil's 3-4 DE time was over, so to see significant time he'd have to beat out Shelton at NT. Can't see that, but he might be able to push his way to a "1B" status in a heavy rotation.
In what role? Coaches seemed to say Phil's 3-4 DE time was over, so to see significant time he'd have to beat out Shelton at NT. Can't see that, but he might be able to push his way to a "1B" status in a heavy rotation.
Inside. He's a big, talented guy, can be explosive if he comes back healthy. I think we'll see him a lot spelling Shelton at the nose and on the field in four linemen situations.
Zombo
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That's not to say Big Phil can't find time at DE, I'm certain he can. Is he a 2 gapping candidate? Absolutely not. He has the wingspan though to help set the edge and prevent tackle read cutbacks.
Obviously that would be a true 'heavy' package. I'm certain he'll get plenty of looks when we go to 4 down as well. However the possibility of seeing Shelton and Phil on the field at the same time is highly likely, especially given our first game against the run heavy Jets.
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well can shelton beat out phil? remember when phil was healthy last on the thursday night game at cincy? we looked pretty good on the dline with him playing LDE and rubin at NT. when those guys are healthy they are good.
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well can shelton beat out phil? remember when phil was healthy last on the thursday night game at cincy? we looked pretty good on the dline with him playing LDE and rubin at NT. when those guys are healthy they are good.
well can shelton beat out phil? remember when phil was healthy last on the thursday night game at cincy? we looked pretty good on the dline with him playing LDE and rubin at NT. when those guys are healthy they are good.
I remember Phil being completely miscast as a 34 DE kind of like Corey Williams was when Phillip traded for him.
His ass is on the line this year. It is put up or shut up, and will come down to camp performance. As it should be.
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XxDaBuckeyexX said:
Phil Taylor is a prime cut candidate
His contract is fully guaranteed this year, so that makes no sense unless you don't think he is good enough to make the team outright.
Zombo
Zombo said:
His contract is fully guaranteed this year, so that makes no sense unless you don't think he is good enough to make the team outright.
Zombo
He has to make the team outright, but it isn't a given. They will eat his contract because they can afford to and have the room.
This is what competition is all about under Pett and his staff.
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Well lets hope Phil shows up ready to compete this year......he was the "only" one to fail the conditioning test last year and, now, he has some serious competition ahead if he wants to keep his job....
I definitely dont see the Browns eating his contract though.....Phil has trade value, so if they feel he wont make the roster, I see him being traded for whatever we can get.....(but I really expect him to make the team and play well, as long as he stays healthy)
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Well lets hope Phil shows up ready to compete this year......he was the "only" one to fail the conditioning test last year and, now, he has some serious competition ahead if he wants to keep his job....
I definitely dont see the Browns eating his contract though.....Phil has trade value, so if they feel he wont make the roster, I see him being traded for whatever we can get.....(but I really expect him to make the team and play well, as long as he stays healthy)
Well lets hope Phil shows up ready to compete this year......he was the "only" one to fail the conditioning test last year and, now, he has some serious competition ahead if he wants to keep his job....
I definitely dont see the Browns eating his contract though.....Phil has trade value, so if they feel he wont make the roster, I see him being traded for whatever we can get.....(but I really expect him to make the team and play well, as long as he stays healthy)
Does he now?
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Here is a really good site on salary cap implications http://overthecap.com/calculator/cleveland-browns/ .
Phillip is sitting pretty and our new Gerard Warren apparently. His salary is at $5,477,000. If he is cut, it all goes to dead money and we get nothing gained toward the cap.
He will have to be Jabba the Hut in order for them to cut him. I still think he should be motivated though. Drafting Shelton is almost a direct smack in the nads to him I would think. Sure, they let Rubin walk, but drafting Shelton pretty much says "we don't trust you Phillip".
If he is in shape and has his game face on, Shelton and he could make a devastating pair in 43 sets and they could also spell each other in 34 rotations. Taylor is probably best playing no more than 60% of the snaps anyway to be effective. For Christ sake leave him off of 34 DE though, that was a bad experiment right there. Can't be a turtle and play 34 DE. No way, no how.
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