Let's Get To A Root Cause of Browns Mediocrity (or Worse)
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It's the quarterback position guys. Look around the league and see the "worst to first" situations. You don't go from 2-14 like the Colts were the year before Andrew Luck was drafted to the AFC championship a few years later by accident. I really don't want to look it up, but what are we on now, 23 starting QB's since 1999? I'm sorry, but the people on here who think you can win without one is wrong. The QB makes everything else happens. It's the dude on the field that sparks everyone else on a constant basis to play better. This is EXACTLY why Manziel needs to start, we gotta see if he's the dude.
The second we find our Brady, Manning etc the whole ship will right itself.
We may have had those guys. But have never had an OL good enough to give QB's a fighting chance.
But we have missed on so many other players. I just watched an up drafted RB, Rawls, from UM, run all over the Bears. And it wasn't that the Bears sucked, but the kid had good vision, made plays when the holes weren't there by running outde the tackles.
And there there Wilson. We actually might have his clone sitting on our bench. But what made Seattle sign the kid while we have drafted bum after bum draft after draft, and we're not even talking the same regime. Every regime has driven this franchise into obscurity and its getting extremely frustrating as a life long fan.
Now we actually might have a Russell Wilson clone in manziel, but there he is sitting the bench. Wilson makes plays, despite his size. Let JM play. We can see he wants to and he's got the competitiveness that might motivate some players to actually play this fucking game.
We may have had those guys. But have never had an OL good enough to give QB's a fighting chance.
But we have missed on so many other players. I just watched an up drafted RB, Rawls, from UM, run all over the Bears. And it wasn't that the Bears sucked, but the kid had good vision, made plays when the holes weren't there by running outde the tackles.
And there there Wilson. We actually might have his clone sitting on our bench. But what made Seattle sign the kid while we have drafted bum after bum draft after draft, and we're not even talking the same regime. Every regime has driven this franchise into obscurity and its getting extremely frustrating as a life long fan.
Now we actually might have a Russell Wilson clone in manziel, but there he is sitting the bench. Wilson makes plays, despite his size. Let JM play. We can see he wants to and he's got the competitiveness that might motivate some players to actually play this fucking game.
I respect your opinion but just feel it's wrong. If any of the bums we've had behind center were worth a crap they'd be good somewhere else, but they aren't and never have been. Colt has an obvious chance to start for the tire fire in Washington but he doesn't. Derek Anderson had his shot in Arizona and only is remembered for laughing on the sidelines.
Don't get me started on the argument "if we had an OL to block, elite guys etc..we'd be great". There's a reason Brady, Manning (in his prime), and other dudes don't go down a lot and it's not because they have 5 pro bowl linemen. It's because they throw to guys who are open and don't hold the damn ball. McCown had good time on several blitzes yesterday, enough to at least try and make a throw. Brady makes that throw and gives a one on one guy a chance- McCown (and insert a bunch of other people) takes a sack. They also don't throw to elite first round dudes a lot either. Look around the league and true number 1 WR's and RB's and you'll find many are later round picks. There's a reason for that-a franchise QB elevates the team and the players around him to be better.
If you don't have a franchise QB you don't have a competitive football team for more than a year or two. It's clear as day and is the number reason the Browns have been in the cellar going on 15 years. I get that drafting a Luck, Manning etc is a challenge but it's what it takes to turn the corner.
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OL is the place we invested the majority of our money. Suffice it to say that group is no Dallas Cowboys OL.
The run D still stinks. 3-4/4-3/5-2/ I don't care, get the job done. They're not. And the rest of the D suffers.
It's not just one first-round DL that's going to fix this.
Everything after that is nonsense.
As for QB being the root of all evil...
What's the Lions record again? How, exactly, are the Colts doing? Hint: They both suck for the exact same reasons... yet they are good at both QB and WR. They ARE the counterexample to the assertion that it's "just" QB. Truth is, yes, QB matters --- but the additive bonus to team performance that you get with Brady/Luck under center is only applied after the OL and DL are solid.
The Seahawks OL is abysmal and because of that, they may not even make the playoffs this year - both the Rams and Cards are better than them. They just gave up 4 sacks to the Bears. But they have Wilson and a WR lining up at TE!
It isn't difficult to figure out, but it is tough to do: Build inside-out with the OL and DL, and hit on your draft picks.
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OL is the place we invested the majority of our money. Suffice it to say that group is no Dallas Cowboys OL.
The run D still stinks. 3-4/4-3/5-2/ I don't care, get the job done. They're not. And the rest of the D suffers.
It's not just one first-round DL that's going to fix this.
Everything after that is nonsense.
As for QB being the root of all evil...
What's the Lions record again? How, exactly, are the Colts doing? Hint: They both suck for the exact same reasons... yet they are good at both QB and WR. They ARE the counterexample to the assertion that it's "just" QB. Truth is, yes, QB matters --- but the additive bonus to team performance that you get with Brady/Luck under center is only applied after the OL and DL are solid.
The Seahawks OL is abysmal and because of that, they may not even make the playoffs this year - both the Rams and Cards are better than them. They just gave up 4 sacks to the Bears. But they have Wilson and a WR lining up at TE!
It isn't difficult to figure out, but it is tough to do: Build inside-out with the OL and DL, and hit on your draft picks.
As for QB being the root of all evil... What's the Lions record again? How, exactly, are the Colts doing? Hint: They both suck for the exact same reasons... yet they are good at both QB and WR. They ARE the counterexample to the assertion that it's "just" QB. Truth is, yes, QB matters --- but the change in performance that you get with Brady/Luck under center is only applied after the OL and DL are solid.The Colts went to the AFC championship last year after starting guess what? 1-2. I wish we could suck that bad.
The Lions went 11-5 and went to the playoffs and have been in the playoffs twice since 2011.
I honestly don't get how this isn't a consensus agreement because it could not any more common sense to me. The era of having a Trent Dilfer QB lead you to a Super Bowl are over. The only way to get over the hump for more than a fluke season is to have a sturdy, franchise guy behind center. Obviously you gotta have some good players all around on the football team, but no franchise QB makes it all moot. The Chiefs had 6 pro bowlers the year before they got Alex Smith and surprise! they are relevant now. 2+2=4 when you look at this.
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I used to think if I didnt watch - or didnt listen online
that the superstition would give the Browns a win...
I listened yesterday so Im sorry...
but seriously, its only 1-2 and its still early...
so just relax - Im still onboard with Pettine and not in the panic group
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I used to think if I didnt watch - or didnt listen online
that the superstition would give the Browns a win...
I listened yesterday so Im sorry...
but seriously, its only 1-2 and its still early...
so just relax - Im still onboard with Pettine and not in the panic group
I used to think if I didnt watch - or didnt listen online
that the superstition would give the Browns a win...
I listened yesterday so Im sorry...
So YOU are the root cause. Thanks a lot!
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I didn't watch the game today.
I haven''t watched a game all year, so come on and tell me how I don't know what I'm talking about.
With chagrin, I listened to my good friend Zombo lament about how the injury to Alex Mack created doom for the Browns' running game. I never understood how a Center could be a 'game changer' but I didn't say much (or anything because he forgot more about this team than I never knew).
However, just look at the stats from today's game (and I will be loose with them), but you cannot win - consistently - when you average about 2 yards per carry and the other team averages 6 yards per carry.
Well, Thomas, Botonio and Mack are all playing. Don't know a lot about the right side of the line but the problem is obvious:
The Browns' Running Backs SUCK! Runners make the OL look better, not the other way around.
Put as many All Pro Offensive Lineman as you want but, if the RBs SUCK, it wont make much difference.
Oh yea. Giving up 6 yards per carry is another topic for another day.
Seems like who plays QB right now is immaterial.
The team needs at least one NFL caliber Running Back, if not more than one.
The team has had a zillion Offensive Linemen since 1999 and the running game has ALWAYS sucked.
Wonder why.
The Browns' Running Backs SUCK! Runners make the OL look better, not the other way around.
Put as many All Pro Offensive Lineman as you want but, if the RBs SUCK, it wont make much difference.
Nope. DeMarco Murray. Enough said.
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I think the root cause is a failure to bring new players to the Browns and have them fit.
Attitude, talent...and sometimes attitude AND talent..was missing.
The first game - the Browns just weren't ready to play. The second game, they were closer,
but had miscommunication problems. Running a sophisticated offense and defense - sure, some things
don't work with the personel ya have, and it takes a bit of time to instinctively play without having to
take a second to think about assignments and "stuff".
The Browns are very, very close, but not there yet. Keep in mind, the Raiders are a very talented team,
and beat Balt in a high scoring game. I just wonder if McCown was somehow not right after the concussion,
or was playing with a bruised shoulder or something... but after I figured they'd start him ... he hurt the
Browns with inaccuracy in a bad, embarrassing way, and a lack of arm strength on long throws - leading
to an int, and just plain pitiful qb play.
I texted Flugels and Canton Mike at halftime that they needed to have put Manziel in. Naturally, it
didn't happen. But it should have. And we were camping, and just listened to most of the game on the
radio back home. But I will watch it on record sometime this week.
Dwayne Bowe was a healthy scratch? What the hell?
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McCown wasn't as bad as you think, Cal.
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Offense is a mess.....
Im going at Flip first......completely uninspired, vanilla & predictable......I see nothing here that gives me confidence.....
Interior O line is not performing.....Mack and Bito playing terrible?......say it aint so guys.....(it is...).....can only hope they wake up and start playing better(Mack actually looked a little better this week)......Bito?.....whats wrong man?....could the coach being gone have any bearing here?.....dunno.....
I did predict that McCown would distribute the ball better and we would see more to the TE's and Hartline....which happened....Im good with how he played, for the most part....too bad he shit the bed at exactly the moment we needed him to be good.....didnt really stand a chance with the porous line play and lack of run game, but still had the chance to make it all right....(fail)...
Crow?.....looks rough.....not too many holes, I know, but not earning too many yards on his own either.....Duke Johnson?....pretty unimpressive so far....
Offensively, very few props to offer......and no good feeling that Flip will or can work it out......
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There's more than one root cause. One root cause only exists for simplistic processes... and the performance we're seeing has many kpi's.
1) Terrible OL and DL play. The theory is that exorbitant OL/DL investment can result in success with average players elsewhere.
2) Terrible DB play.
3) Average players elsewhere who [although not terrible] can't compensate for the bad OL/DL play by themselves.
We saw what DeMarco produced before the Cowboys invested in OL.. he was average. In Philly he's worse than replacement-level.
4) Bad coaching -
a] OL coach isn't helping. I'm sure some high school will hire him.
b] I thought Pettine was a defensive mastermind? Or is he only a defensive mastermind if given the Bills top-3 defense? Perhaps Pettine is overrated... a truly "good" coach will get passing to successful performances from average players -- and excellent [not just successful] performances from his great players.
5) Hitting with draft picks. This year's looks potentially decent... but we don't know how good any draft was until 3,4 years down the road. And the years before 2015 were dreadful.
It's not just one of these. It's all of them. And the "road back," such as it is, will take a long time.
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Chuck Pagano is unhappy in Indy. Seriously, You might be right. Maybe we are overestimating our players. And maybe the offensive coordinator is in over his head. This would mean a long season. Pettine needs to right the ship now. They had a good draft I would play them. Cooper, Erving, Gaines....
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I think the root cause is a failure to bring new players to the Browns and have them fit.
Attitude, talent...and sometimes attitude AND talent..was missing.
The first game - the Browns just weren't ready to play. The second game, they were closer,
but had miscommunication problems. Running a sophisticated offense and defense - sure, some things
don't work with the personel ya have, and it takes a bit of time to instinctively play without having to
take a second to think about assignments and "stuff".
The Browns are very, very close, but not there yet. Keep in mind, the Raiders are a very talented team,
and beat Balt in a high scoring game. I just wonder if McCown was somehow not right after the concussion,
or was playing with a bruised shoulder or something... but after I figured they'd start him ... he hurt the
Browns with inaccuracy in a bad, embarrassing way, and a lack of arm strength on long throws - leading
to an int, and just plain pitiful qb play.
I texted Flugels and Canton Mike at halftime that they needed to have put Manziel in. Naturally, it
didn't happen. But it should have. And we were camping, and just listened to most of the game on the
radio back home. But I will watch it on record sometime this week.
Dwayne Bowe was a healthy scratch? What the hell?
I think the root cause is a failure to bring new players to the Browns and have them fit.
Attitude, talent...and sometimes attitude AND talent..was missing.
The first game - the Browns just weren't ready to play. The second game, they were closer,
but had miscommunication problems. Running a sophisticated offense and defense - sure, some things
don't work with the personel ya have, and it takes a bit of time to instinctively play without having to take a second to think about assignments and "stuff".
So talent evaluation is missing? Both in its selection and its utilization?
First and third games I think we may have been a little full of ourselves and taken opponent too lightly. Maybe Titan game as well, but we got away with it because we were pissed. Until we played the local press was good and certainly Pet was preaching improvement.
Your instinctual bit is intriguing, cal. Doesn't seem to be the way we play... not sure there's room for it "in the system".
Thinking on it seems like a little more "cog in a machine" feel from pressers... and it's no fun being a cog...
Yet BUF players loved Pet... so far ours seem to as well...
There's more than one root cause. One root cause only exists for simplistic processes... and the performance we're seeing has many kpi's.
But are the Key Process Indicators all properly represented on the "dashboard"?
There's a difference between a root cause analysis and throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks...
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The problem with this team ( on both sides of the ball ) is nothing more than strength and conditioning. Our OL and DL have been getting pushed around like three wheeled shopping carts for years. It seems to me no one puts in the work and no one is held accountable for it. It's frustrating watching the same old crap year after year. This franchise is soft.
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Tour I think you hit it on the head with the statement that the Buffalo players and ours love Mike Pettine.
I'm not calling anybody a liar, particularly, but did not seem like there were an awful lot of hamstrings and bullshit injuries which allowed players to take off most of the preseason? I'd imagine that that could carry over into not working really hard at practice either.
I know at rehearsal if a couple of guys, who are good players, blow off working on a few tunes with the assumption that will get it on show day, those are the incident when the performance tends to be sloppy. And if a bitch during practice then the guys get a little bit cranky.
Maybe we need a little more Eric Mangini?
WSS
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Tour I think you hit it on the head with the statement that the Buffalo players and ours love Mike Pettine.
I'm not calling anybody a liar, particularly, but did not seem like there were an awful lot of hamstrings and bullshit injuries which allowed players to take off most of the preseason? I'd imagine that that could carry over into not working really hard at practice either.
I know at rehearsal if a couple of guys, who are good players, blow off working on a few tunes with the assumption that will get it on show day, those are the incident when the performance tends to be sloppy. And if a bitch during practice then the guys get a little bit cranky.
Maybe we need a little more Eric Mangini?
WSS
Tour I think you hit it on the head with the statement that the Buffalo players and ours love Mike Pettine.
Not a great deal of support for my nail in my Browns' News google page this morning...
Dissention this...
Losing locker room that...
MKC sourcing TMZ Sports...
The noise machine is cranking up.
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OK, let's list them. If you have an idea as to why the Browns are sucking, please contribute.
But in the following organized fashion. Put your issue in the appropriate category.
PROBLEM: Browns run defense is 32nd out of 32 teams [as quickly verified on ESPN].
1) Methods - how the Browns function day-to-day. [ Is practice too short? Is the curfew too late? Do the OLB spend 30 minutes practicing whiffing on tackles?]
2) Materials - what the Browns physically use during training and games. [are the cleats too short? do the pants fit correctly? is the field too slippery? ]
3) Machines - Consider the machines they interact with - are the settings correct? [ Is the Jugs machine set up appropriately? Are the blocking sleds rust-free?]
4) People - What is done by a specific role that contributes to the problem? [focus on the PROBLEM, not the person - I agree Pettine doesn't have a clue and Haslam is a douchenozzle, but what specifically are they doing to keep the defense terrible]
5) Environment - Is there an environmental factor with the area around the Browns that needs to be considered? [ Is the air always humid and so the DB's can't practice interceptions? Is the climate control of the indoor facility broken and so the LB's are gassed 90 minutes into practice? ]
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Tour I think you hit it on the head with the statement that the Buffalo players and ours love Mike Pettine.
Not a great deal of support for my nail in my Browns' News google page this morning...
Dissention this...
Losing locker room that...
MKC sourcing TMZ Sports...
The noise machine is cranking up.
Yeah well the noise you hear from that machine is cranking out profits for the sports news media.Not a great deal of support for my nail in my Browns' News google page this morning...
Dissention this...
Losing locker room that...
MKC sourcing TMZ Sports...
The noise machine is cranking up.
I read some Facebook news post about the Browns that Mary Kay wrote in the opening line with something akin to the only name Johnny Manziel cares about is the one on the back of his jersey and then goes on to quote his disappointed take on being demoted to backup again. Nothing incendiary about his remarks whatsoever and exactly what one would expect from any player who wants to start. But that's how she open her story. So I know that doesn't answer the question of whether or not the players like Coach Mike. But usually if the players like the coach it's because they don't have to work very hard. Or am I just thinking of Romeo Crennel instead of Bill Belichick?
WSS
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