Is Haden Washed Up?
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For those critics of Haden, who do you compare him to? I can't think of one CB who plays as much press-man against the opposing #1 (probably the most physically demanding job in the NFL), sans Revis who is an all-time great talent.
In our man coverage scheme, it is ESSENTIAL to get pressure on the QB... Haden makes the mistake of allowing the deep route bc he's expecting QB pressure. This works when you force a QB into throwing too soon, but it doesnt work when the QB has all day...
CB is one of the most thankless jobs in the game. When you're invisible (not letting guys get open) nobody notices. and when you're seen (giving up catches) you're the skapegoat...
For those critics of Haden, who do you compare him to? I can't think of one CB who plays as much press-man against the opposing #1 (probably the most physically demanding job in the NFL), sans Revis who is an all-time great talent.
In our man coverage scheme, it is ESSENTIAL to get pressure on the QB... Haden makes the mistake of allowing the deep route bc he's expecting QB pressure. This works when you force a QB into throwing too soon, but it doesnt work when the QB has all day...
CB is one of the most thankless jobs in the game. When you're invisible (not letting guys get open) nobody notices. and when you're seen (giving up catches) you're the skapegoat...
Amen on pressure being essential to a jamming CB.
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Faded said:
Well, sure, if you are going to just insist that I compare him to some actual, like, you know, flesh-and-blood-real-boy kind of cornerback, that plays real football and stuff, then it makes the whole assessment a little less cut and dried.
But when you compare him to the ideal, made-up, fantasy cornerback in my head, well, let me tell you, dude, he comes up pretty freakin' short! Or, if you like, we can compare him to the other pretend guy that I'm envisioning right now who isn't so great, and who has never done much in the league at corner, but will come here right now for, like, 1/100th of the money that Haden gets and do absolutely no worse than Haden.
I haven't even told you about the one that I came up with where the guy has webbed hands and feet and vestigial wings...
Not sure what you're trying to say...
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He's saying that you need to evaluate every play, not just the 3 during which he didn't execute something perfectly.
He's saying that few humans not named Josh Norman can actually meet the expectations you have assigned to Haden.
He's reminding you that your analysis of "washed up" doesn't mean that the DB coaching staff agrees with you.
The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you. "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
Why isn't this on the second page already?
Because l posted just now, that's why.
And if any of you think differently, it's because you think differently.
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He's saying that you need to evaluate every play, not just the 3 during which he didn't execute something perfectly.
He's saying that few humans not named Josh Norman can actually meet the expectations you have assigned to Haden.
He's reminding you that your analysis of "washed up" doesn't mean that the DB coaching staff agrees with you.
He's saying that you need to evaluate every play, not just the 3 during which he didn't execute something perfectly.
He's saying that few humans not named Josh Norman can actually meet the expectations you have assigned to Haden.
He's reminding you that your analysis of "washed up" doesn't mean that the DB coaching staff agrees with you.
I am very happy that there was a Josh Norman reference here.
Also, it was my analysis of washed up - which, in my sense of the phrase, means past your prime. And, through these last three games, Haden seems to be.
Doesn't mean he's not effective, it just means that his play at this current moment does not warrant his salary. If it's an injury, don't play. If it's a slow start, pick it up. Regardless of the excuse, he's not playing like a $13 million CB right now.
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He's saying that you need to evaluate every play, not just the 3 during which he didn't execute something perfectly.
He's saying that few humans not named Josh Norman can actually meet the expectations you have assigned to Haden.
He's reminding you that your analysis of "washed up" doesn't mean that the DB coaching staff agrees with you.
I am very happy that there was a Josh Norman reference here.
Also, it was my analysis of washed up - which, in my sense of the phrase, means past your prime. And, through these last three games, Haden seems to be.
Doesn't mean he's not effective, it just means that his play at this current moment does not warrant his salary. If it's an injury, don't play. If it's a slow start, pick it up. Regardless of the excuse, he's not playing like a $13 million CB right now.
Regardless of the excuse, he's not playing like a $13 million CB right now.
But he is playing better than our $9 million receiver.
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Regardless of the excuse, he's not playing like a $13 million CB right now.
But he is playing better than our $9 million receiver.
But he is playing better than our $9 million receiver.
Anything is better than nothing.
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I'm in the minority here but I never put a ton of stock in Haden. I think he has been very solid throughout his career. The issues the last few years is he has started slow and the rule changes have made it next to impossible to be that "lockdown corner". Joe has always played physical but he gives up space rather easily but in his defense he typically defends the best WR on a defense that puts little to no pressure on the QB.
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Haden was trash again last season.
The hype and laziness, along with Joe's public love for Cleveland, made him a superstar that he never was.
Not mentioned here, either http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000671496/article/patrick-peterson-darrelle-revis-or-richard-sherman-nfls-top-corner?campaign=tw-nf-sf29756586-sf29756586
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Haden was trash again last season.
The hype and laziness, along with Joe's public love for Cleveland, made him a superstar that he never was.
Not mentioned here, either http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000671496/article/patrick-peterson-darrelle-revis-or-richard-sherman-nfls-top-corner?campaign=tw-nf-sf29756586-sf29756586
Haden was trash again last season.
The hype and laziness, along with Joe's public love for Cleveland, made him a superstar that he never was.
Not mentioned here, either http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000671496/article/patrick-peterson-darrelle-revis-or-richard-sherman-nfls-top-corner?campaign=tw-nf-sf29756586-sf29756586
He was one of the best DBs out there. He may not be now, but he was. And he was hurt. We shall see how does this year.
You are being a bit trashy for trashing Joe here in the offseason. Wait until about December 1, then come back with your reevaluation.
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Haden sucks. Even Serpentini doesn't use him for their TV commercials anymore.
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baloney.
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Haden was trash again last season.
The hype and laziness, along with Joe's public love for Cleveland, made him a superstar that he never was.
Not mentioned here, either http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000671496/article/patrick-peterson-darrelle-revis-or-richard-sherman-nfls-top-corner?campaign=tw-nf-sf29756586-sf29756586
Haden was trash again last season.
The hype and laziness, along with Joe's public love for Cleveland, made him a superstar that he never was.
Not mentioned here, either http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000671496/article/patrick-peterson-darrelle-revis-or-richard-sherman-nfls-top-corner?campaign=tw-nf-sf29756586-sf29756586
Haden gets a lot of credit around here and is mentioned a bit in the media because he was the biggest deal on the worst team. For me you can evaluate a veteran player by envisioning another NFL team paying him his current salary if he were a free agent. No team in the NFL would sign Joe Haden today to his previous deal.
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Haden could very well be washed up, but we have to hope that he's got a few years left in the tank. DB's can have successful late careers, but of course, that generally depends on their HEALTH. We've all seen how Haden's health has deteriorated in the past several years, so I think it's safe to say that the odds are against him. But I'll say this about the guy...he's a hard worker and he loves this city. Although the odds might be against him, I still wouldn't bet on him to fail.
Our defense is short on stars, and we NEED him to come back at a high level. We obviously can't depend on Justin Gilbert, although I have to admit I'm starting to regain some optimism with him.
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I'm in the minority here but I never put a ton of stock in Haden. I think he has been very solid throughout his career. The issues the last few years is he has started slow and the rule changes have made it next to impossible to be that "lockdown corner". Joe has always played physical but he gives up space rather easily but in his defense he typically defends the best WR on a defense that puts little to no pressure on the QB.
he typically defends the best WR on a defense that puts little to no pressure on the QB.
I agree you can't really grade any of the db's well when the D allows 5-7 seconds per play for QB's to sit there and pick apart the D backfield. We rarely pressure anyone.
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Thread resurrected in the spirit of "I'll be right eventually"???
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Thread resurrected in the spirit of "I'll be right eventually"???
Well. Yes. Eventually Haden...and every player will become unable, ill suited to do their job. Right now, with Haden, I think it is a wait and see. He has had injuries that have hampered his effectiveness. If he comes back healthy and it appears that he has lost a step or so, then we can judge. Sometimes good CBs who have lost a step can stilll get the job done through guile, intellect. Some don't. We shall have to see about him. How old is he, and how long has he been in the league. Ordinarily I would say that neither figure should bring an expectation of "losing it." But it can and does happen.....but I, again, think we must wait and see.
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Joe is one of the few CB's I think would be able to make the transition to safety. He has the recognition skills, hands, eyes, time on the offensive side of the ball (high school and college, but still) and ability to put on a few pounds so he'll hover at that 200 spot.
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Joe is one of the few CB's I think would be able to make the transition to safety. He has the recognition skills, hands, eyes, time on the offensive side of the ball (high school and college, but still) and ability to put on a few pounds so he'll hover at that 200 spot.
Joe is one of the few CB's I think would be able to make the transition to safety. He has the recognition skills, hands, eyes, time on the offensive side of the ball (high school and college, but still) and ability to put on a few pounds so he'll hover at that 200 spot.
and that is very cool an idea - Joe is physical enough... nice job.
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Joe is one of the few CB's I think would be able to make the transition to safety. He has the recognition skills, hands, eyes, time on the offensive side of the ball (high school and college, but still) and ability to put on a few pounds so he'll hover at that 200 spot.
Joe is one of the few CB's I think would be able to make the transition to safety. He has the recognition skills, hands, eyes, time on the offensive side of the ball (high school and college, but still) and ability to put on a few pounds so he'll hover at that 200 spot.
Very good point! I'm hoping we don't need to do this yet because I love how instinctive he is at playing corner. IMO, the 2015 season was a product of nagging injuries snowballing on him coupled with the reality RBs were turning our corners without contain with full heads of steam on our secondary that was coincidentally ravaged by concussions in 2015.
Aside from his talent in coverage, Joe has ALWAYS been a great tackler in space with a willingness to come off his man to tackle a big TE breaking free or another WR crossing thirds. There's always going to be a forgettable day for a great corner just ask Patrick Peterson about the day he had covering Julio Jones a year or 2 ago. OR, how about when Antoine Winfield had to cover Plex Burress the day Ohio State fell asleep at the wheel on a big lead vrs Michigan State and kissed their National Championship hopes good night. I'm bringing this up because I know someone that finally wants to be right about Haden can't wait to remind us about opening day vrs Brandon Marshall in 2015. Marshall did that almost every week to corners with his size and wing span advantage as well as made himself one of the toughest WRs in this league to tackle after the catch. The film doesn't lie.
My only worry with Haden is once you start getting dome injuries - they tend to increase in frequency. Anyone remember what happened to Evan Moore after he got a huge salary increase before training camp? He got so many concussions he turned into a porcelain doll and rarely played the year of the big contract. One guy used to call him Evan Moorcelain. If anyone understands this game, they don't question Joe Haden at all.
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