Browns have $42.368m in cap space
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Har- so Farmer was right wrs don't matter. W-L don't matter. You're not listening. Gordon may only be a year away from getting the slate wiped clean. Or you forget that one?
I don't feel sorry for Josh- if you want to know. You didn't answer MY question Tom- is Gordon worth more than a fourth round pick- yes or no.
MHO- you're over rating Benjamin- here's the NFL.com opinion http://51. Travis Benjamin, Cleveland Browns wide receiver: Coming off a career year, Benjamin may find out that NFL teams refuse to pay for undersized slot receivers.
Also underrating Gordon. You're just ranting on past transgressions. That's your prerogative.
So Flash will have a 1,000 yard season (barring injury) - bottle of $20 buck cab vs a case of your favorite beer- up for the challenge?
So maybe we value Benji as more than a slot receiver. We're paying Hawkins a piddly $1 million this year. Punt returners that can run 4.3s are a dime a dozen- to paraphrase Ghoolie. If he wants more than Hartline's $4 million- sorry you're replaceable. Will Fuller runs 4.3 at the combine.
There was an article someone shared a week or so ago that Hartline probably won't be back.
If Gordon is not worth more than a 4th round pick Larry - put the pom poms down and understand why. He's been suspended 27 of our last 32 games. In the 5 games he played - we went 1-4 with him quitting on routes and not knowing the play book. We were 6-4 before that.
Boarding the plane knowing there would be a drug test at the end of the ride, Gordon drank alcohol anyway and failed the test to complete the following hat trick: 2013 suspended 2 games, 2014 suspended 16 games reduced to 10 (but suspended by team), 2015 suspended 16 games. Did Cris Carter make an accurate prediction? Thank you for bringing him up regardless of how sorry that makes you now.
Party animals aren't good with the truth. Manziel and Gordon haven't stopped lying to us yet. I've learned the hard way with both guys. You can hold your breath again all you want. I'm done counting on him for anything. History hasn't lied to us yet but Gordon has lied to us frequently. And you want to bet on Gordon and give me history? I'll take history.
This was the biggest red flag I saw out of Josh.In the 5 games he played - we went 1-4 with him quitting on routes and not knowing the play book. We were 6-4 before that.
I'm not sure if he really wants to be in Cleveland, or he was playing like shit because Johnny Boy wasn't the QB at the time...could be be both.
Two things that will define you: Your determination when you have nothing. Your attitude when you have everything. - Mike McCartney -
Lumping these two together makes your argument weaker, not stronger.
And you really need to cite sources for statements that are contrary to Josh's account, if you label him a liar. For instance drinking on a flight knowing what awaited him on the other end.
"Upon landing, I received the all-too-familiar notice by phone that I was to report to a testing location within four hours. I failed the test, obviously, and the rest is history ..."
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/01/josh_gordon_confirms_his_indef.html
I agree with the above. I think Tom has it wrong about the drinking on the plane. Gordon did know he could be tested at any time, but- according to him, he thought (wrongly) when the Browns season was over, it was OK to have a few. That doesn't excuse him from the DWI.
Oh- Mr Flugel- sure, let's trade Josh for a fourth rounder as you suggest. Easy, we'll just pull a Martavis Bryant out of our ass like the Steelers did. The odds of getting All-Pro talent in that round are mighty small. It's why I'm sticking with Josh.
& Here's Gordon's side of the story- you can believe it or not. Sounds to me like a kid who grew up on the wrong side of the tracks- and is trying to get his life back in order.
https://thecauldron.si.com/an-open-letter-to-charles-barkley-co-cb5c4e64cf3#.dxpo9z2il
I agree with the above. I think Tom has it wrong about the drinking on the plane. Gordon did know he could be tested at any time, but- according to him, he thought (wrongly) when the Browns season was over, it was OK to have a few. That doesn't excuse him from the DWI.
Oh- Mr Flugel- sure, let's trade Josh for a fourth rounder as you suggest. Easy, we'll just pull a Martavis Bryant out of our ass like the Steelers did. The odds of getting All-Pro talent in that round are mighty small. It's why I'm sticking with Josh.
& Here's Gordon's side of the story- you can believe it or not. Sounds to me like a kid who grew up on the wrong side of the tracks- and is trying to get his life back in order.
https://thecauldron.si.com/an-open-letter-to-charles-barkley-co-cb5c4e64cf3#.dxpo9z2il
Hey Rip Van Winkle, what round do you suppose the WRs picking up the slack in Cleveland in 2015 were once drafted in such as Travis Benjamin and Brian Hartline? Round 4. No different than the round we drafted Brian Brennan in. Seems like friendlier magic than those that have come out of round 2 since we got our team back. Believe it or not, we actually once had undrafted free agents named Lance Moore (career extends 2005-present) and Willie Snead (who ended up coming out of nowhere last year with some big games). You mentioned Martavis Bryant being drafted by Pitt in round 4 but they also drafted Antonio Brown in round 6 while guys like Wes Welker, Wayne Chrebet, and Victor Cruz went undrafted to the wise consumers that found them.
BTW, you were the one that first pre-determined only a 4th round trade value for Gordon before I couldn't resist replying. My #1 trade candidate for him has always been Jerruh Jones who wouldn't even think Gordon is a risk with that God Complex of his. Consequently, he's more apt to offer something higher than round 4.
If you had actually read my first post in this thread, you might have actually understood where I was coming from in a very appropriate subject heading about our cap up against how close we already were to signing Benjamin. When we drafted Travis - he was only a 4th round pick that could only run straight aheads, banana routes and drags. No evidence of change of directions, stop and go routes, curls, quick outs. All he could do was return punts/kicks. Today, he's a pretty good #2 that faced a lot of #1 corners since we never had a #1 WR and I dare say I was pleased with the results and progress. Anyone else in our WR Corps since 2012 steadily improve throughout the changes to the QBs, FO, HC, OC, and WR Coaches? I know you want to blow Gordon for how committed he's been to football but I'd rather keep guys I know will stay out of trouble, work hard to improve while they are steadily improving. And when you have a WR that can jet 4.3s - guess what opens up? Underneath and seams, how pumped do you think Gary Barnidge will be to lose Benjamin for Josh might feel like playing THIS week. So we trained up a player for 4 years that is ready for his best football ahead so we can let him go? I hope the nit picking that stopped just shy of lassoing the yes tag is worth it especially if we have to go right back to free agency only to overpay again. Hell yeah, I'm frustrated.
For the life of me, I can't understand what people think was so wonderful about Josh telling us we'd see the best version of him yet in 2014 only to see a disinterested, distracted, and unmotivated player quitting on routes,not knowing plays and getting suspended by the coaching staff for similar reasons. We were 6-4 while he was suspended and (1-4 after he returned before he got suspended again for 1 game). The guy who kept telling us he learned from his mistakes was suspended in 2013, 2014, 2015.
If that full year suspension cut short by 6 weeks in 2014 wasn't a come to Jesus, turn the corner, moment - I began to realize we're never going to see the guy we saw in 2013 again. Sure enough, he got suspended for a full year in the very next off-season. I'm not nearly as patient with him as you and others. He's played 5 football games for us since 2013; and they weren't anything special.
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I agree with the above. I think Tom has it wrong about the drinking on the plane. Gordon did know he could be tested at any time, but- according to him, he thought (wrongly) when the Browns season was over, it was OK to have a few. That doesn't excuse him from the DWI.
Oh- Mr Flugel- sure, let's trade Josh for a fourth rounder as you suggest. Easy, we'll just pull a Martavis Bryant out of our ass like the Steelers did. The odds of getting All-Pro talent in that round are mighty small. It's why I'm sticking with Josh.
& Here's Gordon's side of the story- you can believe it or not. Sounds to me like a kid who grew up on the wrong side of the tracks- and is trying to get his life back in order.
https://thecauldron.si.com/an-open-letter-to-charles-barkley-co-cb5c4e64cf3#.dxpo9z2il
Hey Rip Van Winkle, what round do you suppose the WRs picking up the slack in Cleveland in 2015 were once drafted in such as Travis Benjamin and Brian Hartline? Round 4. No different than the round we drafted Brian Brennan in. Seems like friendlier magic than those that have come out of round 2 since we got our team back. Believe it or not, we actually once had undrafted free agents named Lance Moore (career extends 2005-present) and Willie Snead (who ended up coming out of nowhere last year with some big games). You mentioned Martavis Bryant being drafted by Pitt in round 4 but they also drafted Antonio Brown in round 6 while guys like Wes Welker, Wayne Chrebet, and Victor Cruz went undrafted to the wise consumers that found them.
BTW, you were the one that first pre-determined only a 4th round trade value for Gordon before I couldn't resist replying. My #1 trade candidate for him has always been Jerruh Jones who wouldn't even think Gordon is a risk with that God Complex of his. Consequently, he's more apt to offer something higher than round 4.
If you had actually read my first post in this thread, you might have actually understood where I was coming from in a very appropriate subject heading about our cap up against how close we already were to signing Benjamin. When we drafted Travis - he was only a 4th round pick that could only run straight aheads, banana routes and drags. No evidence of change of directions, stop and go routes, curls, quick outs. All he could do was return punts/kicks. Today, he's a pretty good #2 that faced a lot of #1 corners since we never had a #1 WR and I dare say I was pleased with the results and progress. Anyone else in our WR Corps since 2012 steadily improve throughout the changes to the QBs, FO, HC, OC, and WR Coaches? I know you want to blow Gordon for how committed he's been to football but I'd rather keep guys I know will stay out of trouble, work hard to improve while they are steadily improving. And when you have a WR that can jet 4.3s - guess what opens up? Underneath and seams, how pumped do you think Gary Barnidge will be to lose Benjamin for Josh might feel like playing THIS week. So we trained up a player for 4 years that is ready for his best football ahead so we can let him go? I hope the nit picking that stopped just shy of lassoing the yes tag is worth it especially if we have to go right back to free agency only to overpay again. Hell yeah, I'm frustrated.
For the life of me, I can't understand what people think was so wonderful about Josh telling us we'd see the best version of him yet in 2014 only to see a disinterested, distracted, and unmotivated player quitting on routes,not knowing plays and getting suspended by the coaching staff for similar reasons. We were 6-4 while he was suspended and (1-4 after he returned before he got suspended again for 1 game). The guy who kept telling us he learned from his mistakes was suspended in 2013, 2014, 2015.
If that full year suspension cut short by 6 weeks in 2014 wasn't a come to Jesus, turn the corner, moment - I began to realize we're never going to see the guy we saw in 2013 again. Sure enough, he got suspended for a full year in the very next off-season. I'm not nearly as patient with him as you and others. He's played 5 football games for us since 2013; and they weren't anything special.
Hey Rip Van Winkle, what round do you suppose the WRs picking up the slack in Cleveland in 2015 were once drafted in such as Travis Benjamin and Brian Hartline? Round 4. No different than the round we drafted Brian Brennan in. Seems like friendlier magic than those that have come out of round 2 since we got our team back. Believe it or not, we actually once had undrafted free agents named Lance Moore (career extends 2005-present) and Willie Snead (who ended up coming out of nowhere last year with some big games). You mentioned Martavis Bryant being drafted by Pitt in round 4 but they also drafted Antonio Brown in round 6 while guys like Wes Welker, Wayne Chrebet, and Victor Cruz went undrafted to the wise consumers that found them.
BTW, you were the one that first pre-determined only a 4th round trade value for Gordon before I couldn't resist replying. My #1 trade candidate for him has always been Jerruh Jones who wouldn't even think Gordon is a risk with that God Complex of his. Consequently, he's more apt to offer something higher than round 4.
If you had actually read my first post in this thread, you might have actually understood where I was coming from in a very appropriate subject heading about our cap up against how close we already were to signing Benjamin. When we drafted Travis - he was only a 4th round pick that could only run straight aheads, banana routes and drags. No evidence of change of directions, stop and go routes, curls, quick outs. All he could do was return punts/kicks. Today, he's a pretty good #2 that faced a lot of #1 corners since we never had a #1 WR and I dare say I was pleased with the results and progress. Anyone else in our WR Corps since 2012 steadily improve throughout the changes to the QBs, FO, HC, OC, and WR Coaches? I know you want to blow Gordon for how committed he's been to football but I'd rather keep guys I know will stay out of trouble, work hard to improve while they are steadily improving. And when you have a WR that can jet 4.3s - guess what opens up? Underneath and seams, how pumped do you think Gary Barnidge will be to lose Benjamin for Josh might feel like playing THIS week. So we trained up a player for 4 years that is ready for his best football ahead so we can let him go? I hope the nit picking that stopped just shy of lassoing the yes tag is worth it especially if we have to go right back to free agency only to overpay again. Hell yeah, I'm frustrated.
For the life of me, I can't understand what people think was so wonderful about Josh telling us we'd see the best version of him yet in 2014 only to see a disinterested, distracted, and unmotivated player quitting on routes,not knowing plays and getting suspended by the coaching staff for similar reasons. We were 6-4 while he was suspended and (1-4 after he returned before he got suspended again for 1 game). The guy who kept telling us he learned from his mistakes was suspended in 2013, 2014, 2015.
If that full year suspension cut short by 6 weeks in 2014 wasn't a come to Jesus, turn the corner, moment - I began to realize we're never going to see the guy we saw in 2013 again. Sure enough, he got suspended for a full year in the very next off-season. I'm not nearly as patient with him as you and others. He's played 5 football games for us since 2013; and they weren't anything special.
Well said, Tom. I guess we'll just have to wait & see (and live with) what happens.
Mike
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I agree with Flugs that Gordon will probably let us down at some point. If it truly is a one strike and you're out situation, it's hard to think he'll never be "out." At the same time, I agree with others that there's basically no reason to get rid of him if a 4th or 5th is the best we can get. You might as well take the gamble at that point. I also don't think we should pay Benjamin #1 money, and I'm saying this as one of his biggest believers. It's not that I don't want to pay him because we're counting on Gordon to be our #1, it's simply that he's not worth #1 and we should get that guy in the draft or FA.
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I agree with Flugs that Gordon will probably let us down at some point. If it truly is a one strike and you're out situation, it's hard to think he'll never be "out." At the same time, I agree with others that there's basically no reason to get rid of him if a 4th or 5th is the best we can get. You might as well take the gamble at that point. I also don't think we should pay Benjamin #1 money, and I'm saying this as one of his biggest believers. It's not that I don't want to pay him because we're counting on Gordon to be our #1, it's simply that he's not worth #1 and we should get that guy in the draft or FA.
Bingo!I also don't think we should pay Benjamin #1 money, and I'm saying this as one of his biggest believers.
I'm a fan of Benji as well, but just because he was #1 on the Browns doesn't mean he's a true NFL caliber #1 WR.
Two things that will define you: Your determination when you have nothing. Your attitude when you have everything. - Mike McCartney -
This was the biggest red flag I saw out of Josh.In the 5 games he played - we went 1-4 with him quitting on routes and not knowing the play book. We were 6-4 before that.
I'm not sure if he really wants to be in Cleveland, or he was playing like shit because Johnny Boy wasn't the QB at the time...could be be both.
This was the biggest red flag I saw out of Josh.
I'm not sure if he really wants to be in Cleveland, or he was playing like shit because Johnny Boy wasn't the QB at the time...could be be both.
Wasn't going to get into it, but I suspect the latter. The two were running together. We know that from their shared suspension for Week 17.
Sometimes messages get through... even years late. I want to see JG after a full camp with QBs who can hit him 50+ yards down the field.
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Extra cap money you say?
WSS
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Bingo!I also don't think we should pay Benjamin #1 money, and I'm saying this as one of his biggest believers.
I'm a fan of Benji as well, but just because he was #1 on the Browns doesn't mean he's a true NFL caliber #1 WR.
Bingo!
I'm a fan of Benji as well, but just because he was #1 on the Browns doesn't mean he's a true NFL caliber #1 WR.
Yup- Tom the franchise tag for WRs is going to be around $13 million. At what point do you think Benjamin is asking too much?
PS I won't debate you on Gordon anymore, it's going nowhere. I respect your points. I'll personally LMAO when Gordon tears it up this season.
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another Gordon failure is very, very possible. I never saw Gordon all in on playing
football when he -wasn't- suspended.
and he's still making excuses about his upbringing. Maybe the first time or two I could accept that,
depending...
but seriously... any player who had been in trouble as he has been in... "thinks the no alcohol only lasted
til the season was over"..
???
What ever happened to "get off your ass and find out the specifics, find out from your agent....make sure
you get to play football".
But no, he just goes by what he "thinks". That is witless, and maybe he isn't smart enough to learn the playbook..
and maybe getting suspended was cover for that.
I don't know, but if I could trade him for a second round pick... I'd do it.
It's possible he can come back, be serious, really want to be that player he COULD HAVE BEEN...
but who knows. I believe this coaching staff will judge him based on his interview if he's reinstated,
and the look in his eyes that he's serious.
Okay, even a third round pick. dammit.
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Bingo!
I'm a fan of Benji as well, but just because he was #1 on the Browns doesn't mean he's a true NFL caliber #1 WR.
Yup- Tom the franchise tag for WRs is going to be around $13 million. At what point do you think Benjamin is asking too much?
PS I won't debate you on Gordon anymore, it's going nowhere. I respect your points. I'll personally LMAO when Gordon tears it up this season.
Yup- Tom the franchise tag for WRs is going to be around $13 million. At what point do you think Benjamin is asking too much?
PS I won't debate you on Gordon anymore, it's going nowhere. I respect your points. I'll personally LMAO when Gordon tears it up this season.
No, you don't respect my points. You think it's insane I'm frustrated with a player that's only suited up for us 5 times since 2013 and 4 of those were very forgettable.
The Passion of Hoorta's football messiah where the light at the end of the tunnel has been the headlamp of an oncoming train since 2013. Now back to our regularly scheduled "he's gonna" which of course means "he still hasn't."
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FWIW, I never said I wanted to pay Benjamin #1 WR money - I said I wanted us to re-sign him after learning how close we got and seeing how much $ we always leave unspent. Anyone happen catch the subject heading of this thread?
I also said it wasn't his fault that the guy we have been counting on to be our #1 WR has only been able to play 5 football games since 2013. So by all means make Benjamin the bad guy so we can go right back to relying on Josh Gordon. We saw that magic he added to our 6-4 team he joined in progress in 2014.
What am I missing about a guy that Baylor suspended twice that has continued to be suspended? I'm missing a #1 WR for 27 of our last 32 football games on a Cheech and Chong learning curve.
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No shit Tom. I don't think anyone in their right mind suggest we keep our favorite players at inflated prices.
I do think as a fan continuity is important. Guys that seem like they play their hearts out, they turn into fan favorites. And we lost enough guys that turned out to be damn good players elsewhere. So there's that.
So if a guy doesn't care if he's here or not let him chase the buck. Just remember one of the reasons everybody seems to love Hue Jackson is that he's such a respected guy. Hey if that's true maybe he can convince some guys on the bubble to stick around.
But hell, if you have cap money you might as well spend it on this season's version of Karlos Dansby.
WSS
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No shit Tom. I don't think anyone in their right mind suggest we keep our favorite players at inflated prices.
I do think as a fan continuity is important. Guys that seem like they play their hearts out, they turn into fan favorites. And we lost enough guys that turned out to be damn good players elsewhere. So there's that.
So if a guy doesn't care if he's here or not let him chase the buck. Just remember one of the reasons everybody seems to love Hue Jackson is that he's such a respected guy. Hey if that's true maybe he can convince some guys on the bubble to stick around.
But hell, if you have cap money you might as well spend it on this season's version of Karlos Dansby.
WSS
No shit Tom. I don't think anyone in their right mind suggest we keep our favorite players at inflated prices.
I do think as a fan continuity is important. Guys that seem like they play their hearts out, they turn into fan favorites. And we lost enough guys that turned out to be damn good players elsewhere. So there's that.
So if a guy doesn't care if he's here or not let him chase the buck. Just remember one of the reasons everybody seems to love Hue Jackson is that he's such a respected guy. Hey if that's true maybe he can convince some guys on the bubble to stick around.
But hell, if you have cap money you might as well spend it on this season's version of Karlos Dansby.
WSS
Really good post Steve! Thanks.
We always hear we have to draft better or like Pittsburgh per say. I can't tell you how many pass rushing LBers/OLBs I've seen them bring in somewhere between round 2 and undrafted FAs whether we're talking Chad Brown, Greg Lloyd, Jason Gildon, Joey Porter, Lamar Woodley or James Harrison. They'd come in and learn vet making Pro Bowls. You DO that if you're not firing the DC/schemes every year or 2. All that perpetuates continuity and chemistry while keeping a cap healthy. By the time guys had been to a Pro Bowl or 2 and wanted FA money elsewhere - the next guy was already drafted a year or 2 ago for little to no drop off. Now compare that to the setup of our WR Corps in a passing era - what draftees are ready to step up once we lose a prior draft pick to free agency?
Speaking of WRs, Pitt did well with a lot draftees after the first 2 rounds such as: Martavis Bryant in round 4, Antonio Brown round 6, Hines Ward in round 3 and whatever rounds they drafted Wheaton or Emmanuel Sanders in before that. They didn't skip a beat when Sanders left for Denver because they continued to draft WRs worth keeping and developing. Sure they drafted Burress and Holmes in the first round over the years but both divas got themselves in trouble so they weren't as long term in Pitt as some may have projected.
That's why when this team drafts a 4th round WR like Benjamin embarking on his best football - it sucks to lose that even if he isn't a superstar. We can't afford to train guys so our competitors are cashing in on their best football. This is especilly so if we haven't been drafting anyone worth keeping or developing the last few years. We get the growing pains, learning curve and the first hint of what's around the corner. Then someone else benefits from it. Schwartz is a similar story even though he was a 2nd round pick. He's playing the best football of his career and we have a chance of losing him too. On my ride home from work here in Nashville, he was the most popular FA discussed on the radio here. That sucks! He hasn't always had reliable Guards next to him so our troubles were always running inside of tackle rather than off-tackle/outside - meaning he wasn't always as bad as the unfair criticism he received. We have the money to keep both guys without getting absurd. On top of that, draftees come in under a salary cap so we're not going to go broke keeping a couple players. If we haven't been good at the draft - does it make sense to get rid of draftees that are playing their best football and helping us?
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yeah too bad jimmy said we aren't spending anything in free agency....
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Up to $50 Mil without Mack.
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According to OvertheCap we have 3 extra compensatory draft picks - 2 in the 4th, one in the 5th - for Skrine, Sheard, Hoyer.
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Zombo said:
Yes Z, but not really so. When we send Johnny marching Home, ($4.3 million), and (probably) release Bowe ($4.6 million), that looks like a zero sum game.
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another Gordon failure is very, very possible. I never saw Gordon all in on playing
football when he -wasn't- suspended.
and he's still making excuses about his upbringing. Maybe the first time or two I could accept that,
depending...
but seriously... any player who had been in trouble as he has been in... "thinks the no alcohol only lasted
til the season was over"..
???
What ever happened to "get off your ass and find out the specifics, find out from your agent....make sure
you get to play football".
But no, he just goes by what he "thinks". That is witless, and maybe he isn't smart enough to learn the playbook..
and maybe getting suspended was cover for that.
I don't know, but if I could trade him for a second round pick... I'd do it.
It's possible he can come back, be serious, really want to be that player he COULD HAVE BEEN...
but who knows. I believe this coaching staff will judge him based on his interview if he's reinstated,
and the look in his eyes that he's serious.
Okay, even a third round pick. dammit.
another Gordon failure is very, very possible. I never saw Gordon all in on playing
football when he -wasn't- suspended.
and he's still making excuses about his upbringing. Maybe the first time or two I could accept that,
depending...
but seriously... any player who had been in trouble as he has been in... "thinks the no alcohol only lasted
til the season was over"..
???
What ever happened to "get off your ass and find out the specifics, find out from your agent....make sure
you get to play football".
But no, he just goes by what he "thinks". That is witless, and maybe he isn't smart enough to learn the playbook..
and maybe getting suspended was cover for that.
I don't know, but if I could trade him for a second round pick... I'd do it.
It's possible he can come back, be serious, really want to be that player he COULD HAVE BEEN...
but who knows. I believe this coaching staff will judge him based on his interview if he's reinstated,
and the look in his eyes that he's serious.
Okay, even a third round pick. dammit.
You realize he was on a plane with Joe Haden and Cleveland Browns coaches when he got popped, right? I don't think it was feigned ignorance, especially with coaches present. It was just pure ignorance all around, and for that he's less to blame.
I put more stock in his first suspension than the most recent one.
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