Where to start.....

Flugel

@mudfly said:

We said the same last year....about who the coach inherited and all the bad picks....

and the year before...

and the year before....etc...

Fact is...Pettine WAS the coach that got an immediate turn around....then fell back the next year.....and THEN was blamed for the mess, when he had ZERO talent....his DB's were all hurt....and JFF was being forced down his throat....

You normalIy use cut and paste so I'll just cut and paste what I already clarified: 2015 came pretty freakin close considering the reality this team was 7-9 in 2014. That's why I don't think it was ALL Pettine's fault like some people want to insinuate even though it was insane to CUT Pryor (erasing some serious development time) only to bring him back so late Pettine wouldn't feel comfortable playing him. Huh??? That said, we got off to a 6-4 start WITHOUT Josh Gordon in 2014 so something had to be going right with the coaching. It's up to your front office to identify guys on film that can BLOCK people, get OPEN, CATCH the ball, TACKLE people, SHED blockers, HURRY passers, and play with ideal 1st step instinct. If they come here needing to be taught that at the Pro Level like Mingo (or take your pick), the teams drafting guys that don't need to learn those same essentials have a competitive advantage.

And you never once blamed Farmer at all when you defended Pettine throughout 2015? Really? Look at your careful wording above that says he had ZERO talent.

Let's not get so extreme and pretend Pettine didn't have an ounce of credibility though. It wasn't like Joe Haden was really struggling in life before Pettine. Neither was Whitner out in SF before he came here and got the bad habit of leading with his head all the time. People started calling him Whiffner and I think you made some comments on his decline in 2015 while it was unfolding. All our DBs sharing a large volume of concussions coincidentally also shared a bad habit of tackling with their heads down in 2015 explaining why there was also a lot of missed tackles back there too. Coaches need to be somewhat accountable if there's a trend of injuries stemming from a bad habit. Talented people can develop bad habits (Tiger Woods) especially if they're playing through an injury which is why teams employ position coaches and coordinators. 2015 was some of the worst tackling I've seen throughout our defense so I blame the guy bringing the bad tacklers here and the coaching that didn't correct guys that were good tacklers picking up bad habits. The Head Coach chooses his defensive coaches right? Some of this is on Pettine like it or not.

I would have accepted Johnny excuse if I didn't witness "Play like a Brown" regardless of injury volumes in 2014 and how few games Johnny was able to play that year. Who drafted Johnny? Oh wait, you told me not to blame the front office. BTW, Pettine didn't choose to start Manziel - McCown trying to pretend he was Larry Csonka at the goal line in the opener and other injuries he suffered thereafter was what caused him to go to the next QB on the depth chart. As soon as McCown was ready to play again, Pettine had no trouble demoting Manziel.

I'm not doing anything different here today than I ended up doing on behalf of Pettine. I gave a lot more of that blame to front office sentencing us to playing gridiron chess with pawns. The only difference here today is we're only 3 preseason games deep into this front office-head coach marriage. Let's hope it's not another War of the Roses type of divorce we just came out of.

You're a nice guy with endless optimism....

I think the same about you. Your optimism always reeled me in. You were my go-to guy for a game face when it wasn't always easy to find one. I DO get frustration because I hate losing as much as anyone. You NEVER have to prove yourself to me, which is why I don't get your unwillingness to let the Pettine thing go today. Okay, you LIKED the guy with enough passion to where you always made your pov make sense to your readers. If anything, you made me see it more your way than my way and I posted that late in 2015. Is this all you want to dwell on this year though?

but one only needs to look at this team to see there are no play makers and the talent is LESS this year, than it's been in a while.....

Again, we're only 3 preseason games deep where some starters have only played about once or twice in not very many series. I'm told Josh Gordon is back for good quite a bit and I'm finally believing that. He's had 1 game with his new QB and brand new WRs. Coleman only has limited parts of 1 preseason game to his name too. He'll score more TDs by accident than the sum of 1 by Gabriel in 2 regular seasons here.

There's also a draft volume of 14 only 3 preseason games old while most of Farmer's draftees and overpaid FAs are gone within 2 years beside a few exceptions to that rule. Our front office also added to our 2017 draft volume (including another 1st rd pick and either a 2nd rd pick).

And, yes, lets blame Farmer....then be all optimistic about Orchard, Shelton, Barnidge, Crow, Cooper & Pryor....all of whom he just brought in......

That's not exactly a giant sum after 2 years inclusive of 4 first round picks. Barnidge played here in 2013 so Farmer doesn't get the credit you want to give him here. And you left Dwayne Bowe off that list considering all that cake Farmer prioritized his way? Do the Arizona Cardinals have any more reliable TEs we can look to after the last 2 studs Farmer brought here? Who is Hartline starting for this year? Whitner? Starks? I was optimistic about Orchard and Shelton before Farmer drafted them. Crow wasn't drafted but he was the Freshman of the Year in the SEC so I like that UFA choice given we already wasted a draft pick on Terrence East-n-west.

So what do you want to accomplish with all this Mud? You want everyone to know Hue needs to be defined by his first 3 preseason games in Cleveland - no excuses will be accepted because poor Mike Pettine is the only guy that ever got unfairly scapegoated in Cleveland?

Flugel

@tour2ma said:

Yeah... what was up with that? OBF playing with his thread's buttons?

IF it's only 4-years a la '91-'94, I'd be happy.

In general... blocking as well as tackling... I thought I saw a lot better form.

Should? Yes, but will it? He chases. As for bend... I'll look for improvement, but it could not be worse than it was last year when he was a jack-in-the-box. My latest concern is his level of athleticism... especially since he's "bulked up". He was in a shot of the O leaving the field last nite and broke into an awkward looking jog.

Thanks for your feedback. As for Erving, I thought his stance at Center yesterday looked like it gave him a way better chance at leverage than I saw from his stance much higher at OG in 2015. I'm looking forward to hearing what you found especially in comparison to how he looked at OG previously. I may go back and rewatch it too. He has trouble with the x stunts upfront and gave up a sack yesterday although it was out of a traditional cup protection where both OGs need to be protecting their inside as well. After practicing with TB for a couple days, that shouldn't have been real unexpected IMO.

Mudfly

It's simple Fluges.....it's not that I want to harp about Pettine all season....it's that I am CONTINUING to harp that the talent is bad....

And last season, I fought passionately about preventing another reset....and what I said is proving out....so I feel passionate about it.....

Im ranting because Ive been a lifelong Browns fans and HAVE ALWAYS HAD THEIR BACKS.....until now...

I have always given the new staff time and waited patiently....and when Farmer and Pettine came in WE ALL liked them, said they were doing great(like many are doing with Hue)...me YOU and a bunch of others PRAISED Farmers picks and BOTH drafts(generally)(like you are doing wiith Sashi)......

But....without predjudice....Ive not been impressed with the new staff.....and I chose to just shut my trap about.....actually left the board and didnt even discuss the draft, just because I had nothing nice to say....

Now....I waited a bit and watched....and Im saying what I see...and Im seeing what I feared I would.....and Im seeing my predictions from last fall(the purge PT IV) come to fruition right before my very eyes....

Why is it ok for people to say good, but I cant point to the bad....which is overwhelmingly obvious....why is it ok to say things like Rashrad Higgins was an amazing pick, but I cant point out I dont see it.....

Look....if there's obvious good stuff, id mention it....which I have....ala Dominque Alexander or Derrick Kindred standing out(but only due to no one else showing up)......Nassib had 2 easy sacks, but I gave him props.....was pretty excited at how JG showed up yesterday in mid season form.....Kirksey, Orchard, Crow and Dude have all had my praises this preseason(thanks Farmer).....

But....as painful as it is for you to hear.....there is nothing Ive said that isnt true....And Im not jumping in on this imaginary love train for Hue and Shashi, because they havent done anything to instill my confidence yet.....and have done a number of things that bother me deeply.....

Mudfly

Does anybody realize that our first 6 picks from last year are starting this year?

I know the team sucks....so some wouldnt be elsewhere(Erving? Cooper?)....but we ALL still have high hopes and good expectations for Cooper. Orchard, Campbell, Shelton & Duke....right?

And Crow, Bitonio and Kirksey are developing into some pretty damn good players....right?.....

So....thats a lot of starters for just 2 "Browns" drafts.....

Tour2ma

D Bone

Mud's new outlook on the Browns would best be told in a Hallmark Movie.......

"Mud, a man who could only take so much" - The story of Mudfly, who once was a chipper lad, but soon became dark and self loathing - His friends tried to help, but there was no helping Mud.........

...... Until he met Sister Martha at the insane asylum and she was the only one who could save him.............

Mudfly

@d-bone said:

Mud's new outlook on the Browns would best be told in a Hallmark Movie.......

"Mud, a man who could only take so much" - The story of Mudfly, who once was a chipper lad, but soon became dark and angry - His friends tried to help, but there was no helping Mud.........

...... Until he met Sister Martha at the insane asylum and she was the only one who could save him.............

Ha!....nice....and fixed too.....

TexasAg1969

I'm surprised no one has said anything about how poor our punt coverage was, truly atrocious. It's like the left side needed no containment because maybe they will just run to our right for us. Amazing.

This team reminds me of what Tampa Bay looked like its first seasons as a franchise. You know the one McKay talked about:

"You do a lot of praying, but most of the time the answer is 'no.'" -- on why coaching an expansion team is a religious experience

CaineDeSoulis

I actually liked pettine near the end of the season last year and was hoping he would be kept but it was pretty evident that was impossible. Farmer is probably the worst GM in the History of the NFL and as far as i know is the only GM to be suspended. Farmer is the reason kyle left the way he did. Farmer tried and wanted so hard to be the coach and there was constant in fighting between the staff... Unfortunately Mud a reset NEEDED to be done there was no alternative. you don't want a coach that fights with his GM and you really don't want a GM that thinks he is the coach. it was not a healthy work environment. Pettine's biggest failing was his inability to CONTROL his team and bending to outside pressure(Farmer). Farmer's biggest problem was PRIDE "you play the players i give you" was his motto and it showed on the field. This being said the combination of the two was TOXIC to the franchise. That being said lets look at some positives of the new staff

Our running game has looked better this year than it did all of last year. We have ALOT more high motor type players. OUR WR's core is better built for the future and has a chance of being a plus for this team later in the year. Our offense looks more like an NFL offense this year. Our DL has some promise. We Hopefully have a front office and coaching staff that are working together rather than independently (We really wont know this until later in the season when the losses start piling up). Uptempo Practices and tackling drills are a plus I've noticed the newer players are better at following through on tackles than older players.

Lets look at some other things. Sashi is a lawyer and even though he "Says" he has personnel control we can all see it's not why he has the position. He's effectively a mediator for us which could work as it is not something that is common in the nfl front office structure. likely Hue on one side and Andrew Berry and Ken Kovash on the other. Sashi's job is to make sure every decision he makes or helps to make is in the best interest of the football team and follows the plan/strategy passed down from Paul DePodesta. Paul's job is our strategist. on the field and off the field from our athletic trainers to our play schemes and player acquisition. no one in the browns organization is higher than him except for the owner.

If Paul is the macromanagement of the browns. Hue is the Micromanagement he's got the biggest input on all things on the field and is pretty much the guy that says get me these "Type" of players to make my system work and then the office gets it done. Personally I like his offensive style and I like his coaching style our players look "Happy" to be on the field. Saying that he has made some decisions that are questionable. Signing RG3 is one but to be fair to him and the front office he was fairly cheap and is a low risk-high reward pickup he's likely not the future but he's pretty young and flashed that elite talent so there's a small chance 5% maybe?... Pep Hamilton was available to be a glorified QB Coach. Al Saunders and Hue have a pretty long history and Al is one of the Best Wideout coaches in the nfl and Ray Horton He has been bad his entire career he will likely always be bad and the ONLY reason he got this job was because of the Fritz Pollard Alliance. since Hue wanted to give Horton a chance based on that alone so be it but if our defense finishes top 30 and looks like this all season he should be fired as should Jackson. It was a Personal decision made not in the best interest of the browns but in the interest of a special interests group and the browns don't need that type of shit. Hopefully it just ends up as Horton getting released and not giving hue as much input on his replacement.

in the end i actually think that the coaching staff is designed to be MORE replaceable than in previous regimes. Few thoughts other than the great catch by barnidge and the 2 pushoffs 1 from pryor and 1 from gordan I've been completely unimpressed from griffin. he really struggles to make anything more than a first read or SOMETIMES he checks it down most of the time he holds it too long and takes the sack. His decision making is awful. mccown looked worse if that was possible. davis i've only seen like 5 minutes of and kessler has looked both like a complete rookie and the most competent in running the cleveland offense. it'll be fun to see how he develops. Nassib is my preseason mvp for sure. oh and mud you were totally right we should be in a 4-3 right now and its fucking STAGGERING that we RARELY play in it currently

One Post

Are you guys done crying over a preseason game yet?

You guys bitch and bawl over stupid shit. Listen go ahead and stay negative because once we start winning some games you'll know I was right.

They shouldn't have played rg3 that long in a meaningless game for one and the defense we're going to run hasn't been shown. Pisses me off go ahead because it's easier to be negative and not put stock into a 3-13 team. (last year)

Flugel

@mudfly said:

It's simple Fluges.....it's not that I want to harp about Pettine all season....it's that I am CONTINUING to harp that the talent is bad....

And last season, I fought passionately about preventing another reset....and what I said is proving out....so I feel passionate about it.....

Fair enough.

I'm ranting because Ive been a lifelong Browns fans and HAVE ALWAYS HAD THEIR BACKS.....until now...

You're a very loyal dude Mud! Dom gummit! It sucks to see the steady course of disappointment leading passionate fans like you to this point.

Other fan bases get treated to exciting X's and O's from their talented Jimmys and Joes while we keep seeing the X's and Uh-Oh's causing Ex's and Oh-No's.

Sometimes I question why I'm still believing in Santa Claus with this thing at 52 years of age. The last game my dad saw before he died was when Patty Shurmur decided to punt the ball on 4th and 1 at the Indy 38 yard line late in the 2nd half when they had well over a TD lead on us with one of the worst defenses in the league against the run. Needless to say, we punted the ball out of the end zone for a touchback and netted only 18 yards. My dad said I can't believe this team hired such a pussy. Then he tried to apologize for reeling me and my brother into it all. He said, he's already experienced the best run any professional football team has ever had over a 10 year period so don't feel bad about him not being here if the winning should ever return again. He tried to tell me you're free to go root for anyone else with something like: "Please don't feel you need to stay sentenced to this bullshit any longer."

Do you know what I told him? Football and the Browns always gave me my favorite sense of community and family. You took me and John to our first Cleveland Browns game the day Turkey Jones laid down the law about an eye for an eye and a quarterback for a quarterback (only Jones did it in-bounds before the play was whistled dead). Driving to Cleveland from Rochester (Fairport), NY and coming out on the contour of Lake Erie listening to Gordon Lightfoot singing "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" on the radio was really freakin cool as a kid. The Browns won with a Dentist named David Mays playing QB that day with a front 4 that attacked QBs (not to be confused with this gay, limp wristed 3-4 defense that has rarely justifies it's use here). I can't remember when/how Jack Lambert lost his 2 front teeth back in the day; but something sure stopped him from wanting to hit or put his arms around our QBs. On top of that, the emergence of Greg Pruitt and the excitement he added totally reeled me into unconditional loyalty. Don't feel sorry for any of it.

Before there were satellite feeds, which my dad had - he used to put big antennaes on the roof he got from working at Rochester Telephone. We'd see the Browns playing teams with feeds out of Ottawa, Canada broadcasted in French. He'd get feeds almost every Sunday from some of the most surprising places. My brother died unexpectedly within a year or so of my dad.

I'm still hanging on to all that Mud. I may not have those 2 guys anymore; but passionate fans in here like you and others keep me feeling that sense of community I've always felt the Browns and football has given me. Bonds and friendships develop in here you see exemplified in road trips, fantasy football leagues and daily discussions.

I have always given the new staff time and waited patiently....and when Farmer and Pettine came in WE ALL liked them, said they were doing great(like many are doing with Hue)...me YOU and a bunch of others PRAISED Farmers picks and BOTH drafts(generally)(like you are doing wiith Sashi)......

No denying any of that Mud. When you lead with your heart instead of your brain - you can go from 1999 to 2016 at warped speed only to ask yourself why am I buying the quick sand this time? Not that I don't appreciate an abrasive bastard like Ghoolie for his willingness to try to break open some of our domes with his cyber mallet. I'm way better at pegging how guys will do on teams I couldn't give 2 shits about. Make sense? It shouldn't.

I'm not here to pretend I can quit my day job as a professional clairvoyant for the Cleveland Browns. I'd rather have a couple former smart football players from Harvard and Sashi without all my years of emotional investment to this team not clouding their judgement.

There's always going to be decisions I don't like such as re-hiring Ray Horton after hearing fans locally here in Nashville complaining on the radio about some of the worst tackling they've ever seen here the last 2 years after our tackling was pretty atrocious in 2013. Some of our coverage zones and as much as a 3rd of the field looked like ghost towns easily exploited in 2013. Like Rodney Harrison and Dungy agreed, you don't put your 3rd corner (McFadden) isolated on one of Brady's key receivers without any help over the top in the end.

Me doing what I always do - I'm trying to hope the reason we stayed married to a freakin 3man front with 5 techniques held hostage to 2 gap football was because of injuries and bare cupboards from a bad front office. Unfortunately, even though we have 14 draft picks in need of a lot of experience - I don't think we're breaking away from the 3man fronts I haven't seen work well since we got our team back. There's things I question. I'm not a big Tabor fan either. I see the same penalties haunting our return game/field position by the same culprits. Baltimore has beaten us twice in the last 2 years from STs melt downs. For that matter, if our PRO football team looked like they ever saw an onside kick at the NFL level - Tom Brady doesn't get over celebrated on a Sunday he played 50 minutes of very forgettable football.

But....without predjudice....Ive not been impressed with the new staff.....and I chose to just shut my trap about.....actually left the board and didnt even discuss the draft, just because I had nothing nice to say....

Now....I waited a bit and watched....and Im saying what I see...and Im seeing what I feared I would.....and Im seeing my predictions from last fall(the purge PT IV) come to fruition right before my very eyes....

Why is it ok for people to say good, but I cant point to the bad....which is overwhelmingly obvious....why is it ok to say things like Rashrad Higgins was an amazing pick, but I cant point out I dont see it.....

Fair enough Mud. Just be mindful that guys like Pryor and Lenz lit it up last preseason only to get cut for those thinking what they see in limited preseason action leads to clearcut conclusions about the NFL careers ahead.

I don't think anyone is predicting flawless football in 2016; but I see no reason we can't begin see some young guys emerging as reasons to provide enough excitement that we have no problem looking forward to game day. Greg Pruitt once brought about this feeling at least for me until there was eventually a team around him that could make the playoffs or miss the playoffs with a 9-5 record. You've mentioned Josh Gordon excites you when/if he returns motivated like yesterday advertised better than any game we saw him appear in outside of the Atlanta game in 2014. If that works and Coleman and Pryor also contribute some good stuff on top of the dimension Barnidge is capable of - there could be a very pleasant surprise in store for you on the offensive side. About time right?

Look....if there's obvious good stuff, id mention it....which I have....ala Dominque Alexander or Derrick Kindred standing out(but only due to no one else showing up)......Nassib had 2 easy sacks, but I gave him props.....was pretty excited at how JG showed up yesterday in mid season form.....Kirksey, Orchard, Crow and Dude have all had my praises this preseason(thanks Farmer).....

But....as painful as it is for you to hear.....there is nothing Ive said that isnt true....And Im not jumping in on this imaginary love train for Hue and Shashi, because they havent done anything to instill my confidence yet.....and have done a number of things that bother me deeply.....

It's not painful as much as I need to get used to that shattered rose colored glasses gone really far over to the opposite extreme. You're entitled to your opinions. You've been a fan EVERYONE in here likes to read. That's not by accident...

I'm just going to remind you every coin has 2 sides. If you don't think 3 pre-season losses is enough for you to have warm fuzzy conclusions - the other side of the coin says the same length of time isn't enough to feel like it's the appropriate time fire the entire front office and coaching staff as well as give up on all the players they brought in.

Tour2ma

@cainedesoulis said:
If Paul is the micromanagement of the browns. Hue is the Micromanagement he's got the biggest input on all things on the field and is pretty much the guy that says get me these "Type" of players to make my system work and then the office gets it done.

Is one of those supposed to be a "Macro"??? Cause you know... two micros do not a macro make.

@one-post said:
You guys bitch and bawl over stupid shit. Listen go ahead and stay negative because once we start winning some games you'll know I was right.

Just for the record... define "some".

One Post

@tour2ma said:

Is one of those supposed to be a "Macro"??? Cause you know... two micros do not a macro make.

Just for the record... define "some".

More than 3

JAFBF

Wow Mud, weren't you on my case last year when I started pointing out how putrid this team was?

I didn't think it possible, but this version is even worse.

Of course, when you let what little talent you had walk (C, RG, S, etc.), then it's to be expected.

Could only stomach a half last night (they actually showed it here), saw some shots where Hue looked Pissed, and like WTF was he doing here.

Yeah, Koolaids long gone . . . I think they're keeping for themselves this year, they're going to need it.

Orion

@mudfly said:
it's not that I want to harp about Pettine all season....it's that I am CONTINUING to harp that the talent is bad....And last season, I fought passionately about preventing another reset....and what I said is proving out....so I feel passionate about it....

Nobody wants ANOTHER reset. But THAT one absolutely, positively HAD to be done.

Pettine was a ghost. Never teaching anybody anything. (Did you see Hue explaining Andy Lee's job to him when Andy allowed the punt returner to waltz into the end zone - Andy's ass was forcing the NEXT punt returner out of bounds).

And was there a DUMBER play ever than kicking a 60+ yard field goal at Devon Hester, standing in the end zone? TWICE? Pettine HAD to go.

Farmer was a dope! Holding almost NO value for wide receivers....in a passing era. (definition of a dope in today's nfl). And then, of course, drafting Manziel after not going to the pro day of any of the QB's in the draft because he 'Didn't need to'.

And let's not even talk about text gate. Farmer didn't even understand his job.

....and the two of them could not work together.

You cannot have consistency just for the sake of it. You've got to have at least SOME of the correct people in place.

This reset, more than any other, HAD to happen.

Canton Dawg

@jafbf said:

Wow Mud, weren't you on my case last year when I started pointing out how putrid this team was?

I didn't think it possible, but this version is even worse.

You ain't seen nothing yet.

stillmotion

I think for one it's absolutely pathetic that Jimmy thinks he can pay as little as possible and get superbowl quality talent. We did have the #2 pick and we utterly fucked it up. We traded down to 15 and took coleman, but honestly do you think he's an AJ green or Beckham? He might pan out to be a legit WR2, but christ, what about our Oline..... Meanwhile indy snags ryan kelly, and we have cam erving. Not saying Cam can't turn into a great player eventually, but our QB will get killed this season. Let's give Hue 7 years, at that point do you think we'll have a superbowl quality team? Jimmy wants to pay as little as possible and make as much money as possible. It's good to be optimistic about Hue, but he's proved JACK shit to us so far, so lets not put all of our blind faith in him. And what about our quality of players compared to lets say the Seahawks two years ago.... They're in a different fucking world. We're like Grambling State vs. an NFL team if we played them with what we have. Especially without Gordon, our shitty Oline, and Horton back.

I'm going to hope for the best but expect the worst.

TexasAg1969

@one-post said:
More than 3

Vegas has the over/under for the season at 4.5 so I guess that "more than 3" makes you just another negative Nancy. HA!!

mjp28

@texasag1969 said:

I'm surprised no one has said anything about how poor our punt coverage was, truly atrocious. It's like the left side needed no containment because maybe they will just run to our right for us. Amazing.

This team reminds me of what Tampa Bay looked like its first seasons as a franchise. You know the one McKay talked about:

"You do a lot of praying, but most of the time the answer is 'no.'" -- on why coaching an expansion team is a religious experience

Funny you mentioned that, when I saw it live I just thought oh yeah high school football starts this week because that's how bad it looked.

Hey young team, maybe they'll come around by week ____ . (pick a number)

Oh didn't McKay say when asked about his team's execution that he was in favor of it?

And the old Tampa Bay team is why we have better new team pool rules now.

GO BROWNS, we still love ya'.

One Post

@texasag1969 said:
Vegas has the over/under for the season at 4.5 so I guess that "more than 3" makes you just another negative Nancy. HA!!

Whatever. Lol! Trying to remain positive and I will. Can't believe you pussys get babyfied over a preseason game. Jeez