Draft Talk
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TCPO, what is your take on Deshaun Watson? I have only watched a limited amount of football from the guy so I can't make heads or tails of him.
I'm high on his character, but thats really it. I was intrigued by his fantastic performance last season, but I didn't see enough this season to warrant a first round selection on him. As Tour stated, injury has me a little worried. I think he's gonna be a decent pro, but I personally don't see him carrying over the gamechanging potential he has displayed in the NCAA. I think he's a good fit for a mild-climate or dome team with spread tendencies, who can more easily integrate read-option plays here and there. People like to say the read option isn't viable in the NFL, but I have to disagree. When used as a complimentary piece to an offense you are already adept at running, it creates a new wrinkle for defenses to game plan for. The problem lies in molding your offense strictly around the read option or running a more traditional offense and trying to add in read-option tendencies.
If Watson can land with a team like, say, New Orleans...I think he'll have a crazy amount of success. That roster is built for the spread, they have athletic offensive linemen who are versed in the system and a stable of receivers and runningbacks who can operate in space. Watson should have no trouble there. But if he were to go a New York or Houston, I don't see that working in his favor at all.
I'm high on his character, but thats really it. I was intrigued by his fantastic performance last season, but I didn't see enough this season to warrant a first round selection on him. As Tour stated, injury has me a little worried. I think he's gonna be a decent pro, but I personally don't see him carrying over the gamechanging potential he has displayed in the NCAA. I think he's a good fit for a mild-climate or dome team with spread tendencies, who can more easily integrate read-option plays here and there. People like to say the read option isn't viable in the NFL, but I have to disagree. When used as a complimentary piece to an offense you are already adept at running, it creates a new wrinkle for defenses to game plan for. The problem lies in molding your offense strictly around the read option or running a more traditional offense and trying to add in read-option tendencies.
If Watson can land with a team like, say, New Orleans...I think he'll have a crazy amount of success. That roster is built for the spread, they have athletic offensive linemen who are versed in the system and a stable of receivers and runningbacks who can operate in space. Watson should have no trouble there. But if he were to go a New York or Houston, I don't see that working in his favor at all.
Kiffin seems to have done an interesting marriage of the read-option and pro style this year.
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TCPO, you're not attracted to the more value-based non-Garrett pass rushers? Williams, Barnett, Lawson.
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It's all going to depend on who is available when that team that has a need is up. There might be ten players that are worthy of being top five guys but as you know, only five of them are going to be top five guys. Then if that #6 team decided that the best player available has now come from a different position. That player might drop down the board and maybe right out the first round.
It doesn't matter where you are projected to be taken, a first round player is picked in the first round.
Wasn't there a first round kicker somewhere back there?
Let's find the guys that will make us better functionally. We have to find that player/players that can elevate the team around them.
Is anyone doubting that the Browns would have the capital to move anywhere from #10-14(eagles pick) up to number 2 to secure the future of this organization. I don't care about the cost, there isn't a price that I'm unwilling to pay- if I'm 100% certain that there are two players in this draft that can turn this thing around, why not?
Let's say that this Trubisky kid is the real deal. Let's say he blows away the combine, puts up great numbers, passes flawlessly at his pro-day, says all the right things and answers all the tough questions. He's the guy. His ability on the football field makes the guys play harder and block longer. His receivers rave about his catchable balls and his leadership. Most importantly he wills the team to wins.
Let us also say there is a guy on defense that plays much like a man playing amongst boys. He faster, he's stronger, he's just plain out better than everyone else. Not only that but he's quick cheetah like reflexes slip him past the lumbering lineman to fiercely destroy any poor soul he catches with their hands on his football. With a player like this the entire Defense benefits from his presence. The impact he makes classifies him as a game-changer.
If there are two guys like that what about giving like #10, 2 - #2s and a fourth this year and a 2nd and a third next year?
The secret of getting ahead is getting started. The secret of getting started is breaking your complex overwhelming tasks into small manageable tasks, and then starting on the first one. -Mark Twain- "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." -Mark Twain- -
TCPO, you're not attracted to the more value-based non-Garrett pass rushers? Williams, Barnett, Lawson.
TCPO, you're not attracted to the more value-based non-Garrett pass rushers? Williams, Barnett, Lawson.
I like their on-field production almost as much as Garrett's and I'd be more inclined to go the Williams route if it weren't for Garrett's off-field personality and mentality. Granted, it may just be media overblowing things, but he gives off that Joe Thomas vibe to me - a laid back, non off-field threat, superstar who a fanbase can truly rally around.
Unfortunately, that torch is going to have to be passed here soon. Haden is okay, but he doesn't carry the same sort of reverence that JT does. I feel like Garrett could fill those shoes in terms of fan-favorite, all around great and talented player. Will he be a 9x Pro Bowler? That's a question I can't answer.
One thing that can't be discounted is reverence...or star power...or whatever you want to call it. I truly believe that it can equate to on-field production; its part of the reason why some guys can have monumental years and then collapse. What a lot of people sometimes fail to realize is that it takes two people to make a play. Sometimes, guys are beat before the play even starts just because they think they are. Garrett, so far, carries that kind of power in college. If he can bring that to the NFL, it would be worth the #1 pick for me, for sure.
There are 20 QBs in the league who can throw the ball better than Cam Newton, yet he's still the reigning MVP. There's a ton of other stuff that goes into that, but star power is definitely one of them.
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On a side note, I'll take Myles Garrett who's 2 years younger than Tim Williams.
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It's all going to depend on who is available when that team that has a need is up. There might be ten players that are worthy of being top five guys but as you know, only five of them are going to be top five guys. Then if that #6 team decided that the best player available has now come from a different position. That player might drop down the board and maybe right out the first round.
It doesn't matter where you are projected to be taken, a first round player is picked in the first round.
Wasn't there a first round kicker somewhere back there?Let's find the guys that will make us better functionally. We have to find that player/players that can elevate the team around them.
Is anyone doubting that the Browns would have the capital to move anywhere from #10-14(eagles pick) up to number 2 to secure the future of this organization. I don't care about the cost, there isn't a price that I'm unwilling to pay- if I'm 100% certain that there are two players in this draft that can turn this thing around, why not?
Let's say that this Trubisky kid is the real deal. Let's say he blows away the combine, puts up great numbers, passes flawlessly at his pro-day, says all the right things and answers all the tough questions. He's the guy. His ability on the football field makes the guys play harder and block longer. His receivers rave about his catchable balls and his leadership. Most importantly he wills the team to wins.
Let us also say there is a guy on defense that plays much like a man playing amongst boys. He faster, he's stronger, he's just plain out better than everyone else. Not only that but he's quick cheetah like reflexes slip him past the lumbering lineman to fiercely destroy any poor soul he catches with their hands on his football. With a player like this the entire Defense benefits from his presence. The impact he makes classifies him as a game-changer.
If there are two guys like that what about giving like #10, 2 - #2s and a fourth this year and a 2nd and a third next year?
It's all going to depend on who is available when that team that has a need is up. There might be ten players that are worthy of being top five guys but as you know, only five of them are going to be top five guys. Then if that #6 team decided that the best player available has now come from a different position. That player might drop down the board and maybe right out the first round.
It doesn't matter where you are projected to be taken, a first round player is picked in the first round.
Wasn't there a first round kicker somewhere back there?
Let's find the guys that will make us better functionally. We have to find that player/players that can elevate the team around them.
Is anyone doubting that the Browns would have the capital to move anywhere from #10-14(eagles pick) up to number 2 to secure the future of this organization. I don't care about the cost, there isn't a price that I'm unwilling to pay- if I'm 100% certain that there are two players in this draft that can turn this thing around, why not?
Let's say that this Trubisky kid is the real deal. Let's say he blows away the combine, puts up great numbers, passes flawlessly at his pro-day, says all the right things and answers all the tough questions. He's the guy. His ability on the football field makes the guys play harder and block longer. His receivers rave about his catchable balls and his leadership. Most importantly he wills the team to wins.
Let us also say there is a guy on defense that plays much like a man playing amongst boys. He faster, he's stronger, he's just plain out better than everyone else. Not only that but he's quick cheetah like reflexes slip him past the lumbering lineman to fiercely destroy any poor soul he catches with their hands on his football. With a player like this the entire Defense benefits from his presence. The impact he makes classifies him as a game-changer.
If there are two guys like that what about giving like #10, 2 - #2s and a fourth this year and a 2nd and a third next year?
No
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Here ya go, Ag...
Browns have 'astronomical grade' on Texas A&M's Myles Garrett, per source
Adam Schefter ESPN Senior Writer
As the 0-12 Cleveland Browns get closer to clinching the No. 1 overall draft pick, there is a real chance that the team will not use its top selection on a quarterback.
The Browns have what one source close to the situation described as an "astronomical grade" on Texas A&M defensive end Myles Garrett, a blue-chip prospect who could dramatically upgrade Cleveland's defense. The Browns are enamored with Garrett, according to the source.
Then again it is Schefter...
Ken Carmen said. . .Here ya go, Ag...
Browns have 'astronomical grade' on Texas A&M's Myles Garrett, per source
Adam Schefter ESPN Senior Writer As the 0-12 Cleveland Browns get closer to clinching the No. 1 overall draft pick, there is a real chance that the team will not use its top selection on a quarterback.The Browns have what one source close to the situation described as an "astronomical grade" on Texas A&M defensive end Myles Garrett, a blue-chip prospect who could dramatically upgrade Cleveland's defense. The Browns are enamored with Garrett, according to the source.
Then again it is Schefter...The Browns have an extremely high grade on a player who measures extremely high.
Welcome to progress.
Two things that will define you: Your determination when you have nothing. Your attitude when you have everything. - Mike McCartney -
TCPO, you're not attracted to the more value-based non-Garrett pass rushers? Williams, Barnett, Lawson.
I like their on-field production almost as much as Garrett's and I'd be more inclined to go the Williams route if it weren't for Garrett's off-field personality and mentality. Granted, it may just be media overblowing things, but he gives off that Joe Thomas vibe to me - a laid back, non off-field threat, superstar who a fanbase can truly rally around.
Unfortunately, that torch is going to have to be passed here soon. Haden is okay, but he doesn't carry the same sort of reverence that JT does. I feel like Garrett could fill those shoes in terms of fan-favorite, all around great and talented player. Will he be a 9x Pro Bowler? That's a question I can't answer.
One thing that can't be discounted is reverence...or star power...or whatever you want to call it. I truly believe that it can equate to on-field production; its part of the reason why some guys can have monumental years and then collapse. What a lot of people sometimes fail to realize is that it takes two people to make a play. Sometimes, guys are beat before the play even starts just because they think they are. Garrett, so far, carries that kind of power in college. If he can bring that to the NFL, it would be worth the #1 pick for me, for sure.
There are 20 QBs in the league who can throw the ball better than Cam Newton, yet he's still the reigning MVP. There's a ton of other stuff that goes into that, but star power is definitely one of them.
I like their on-field production almost as much as Garrett's and I'd be more inclined to go the Williams route if it weren't for Garrett's off-field personality and mentality. Granted, it may just be media overblowing things, but he gives off that Joe Thomas vibe to me - a laid back, non off-field threat, superstar who a fanbase can truly rally around.
Unfortunately, that torch is going to have to be passed here soon. Haden is okay, but he doesn't carry the same sort of reverence that JT does. I feel like Garrett could fill those shoes in terms of fan-favorite, all around great and talented player. Will he be a 9x Pro Bowler? That's a question I can't answer.
One thing that can't be discounted is reverence...or star power...or whatever you want to call it. I truly believe that it can equate to on-field production; its part of the reason why some guys can have monumental years and then collapse. What a lot of people sometimes fail to realize is that it takes two people to make a play. Sometimes, guys are beat before the play even starts just because they think they are. Garrett, so far, carries that kind of power in college. If he can bring that to the NFL, it would be worth the #1 pick for me, for sure.
There are 20 QBs in the league who can throw the ball better than Cam Newton, yet he's still the reigning MVP. There's a ton of other stuff that goes into that, but star power is definitely one of them.
Problem with your comparison is that most OL are laid back dudes. I had a buddy that started at DE next to Aaron Donald and he always laughs about how OL are a different breed. Shove them after a play--most of them don't do anything. Talk about their mothers--same thing. Try the same stuff with a front 7 player and see what happens.
Joe fits that mold. Garrett does too, but he's at a position where you have to be an animal.
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I like their on-field production almost as much as Garrett's and I'd be more inclined to go the Williams route if it weren't for Garrett's off-field personality and mentality. Granted, it may just be media overblowing things, but he gives off that Joe Thomas vibe to me - a laid back, non off-field threat, superstar who a fanbase can truly rally around.
Unfortunately, that torch is going to have to be passed here soon. Haden is okay, but he doesn't carry the same sort of reverence that JT does. I feel like Garrett could fill those shoes in terms of fan-favorite, all around great and talented player. Will he be a 9x Pro Bowler? That's a question I can't answer.
One thing that can't be discounted is reverence...or star power...or whatever you want to call it. I truly believe that it can equate to on-field production; its part of the reason why some guys can have monumental years and then collapse. What a lot of people sometimes fail to realize is that it takes two people to make a play. Sometimes, guys are beat before the play even starts just because they think they are. Garrett, so far, carries that kind of power in college. If he can bring that to the NFL, it would be worth the #1 pick for me, for sure.
There are 20 QBs in the league who can throw the ball better than Cam Newton, yet he's still the reigning MVP. There's a ton of other stuff that goes into that, but star power is definitely one of them.
Problem with your comparison is that most OL are laid back dudes. I had a buddy that started at DE next to Aaron Donald and he always laughs about how OL are a different breed. Shove them after a play--most of them don't do anything. Talk about their mothers--same thing. Try the same stuff with a front 7 player and see what happens.
Joe fits that mold. Garrett does too, but he's at a position where you have to be an animal.
Problem with your comparison is that most OL are laid back dudes. I had a buddy that started at DE next to Aaron Donald and he always laughs about how OL are a different breed. Shove them after a play--most of them don't do anything. Talk about their mothers--same thing. Try the same stuff with a front 7 player and see what happens.
Joe fits that mold. Garrett does too, but he's at a position where you have to be an animal.
I don't know if I'd necessarily buy that. I'm a former OL and I've seen just as varied pool of mentality and temperament across the OL as any other position.
Even still, how you play on the field isn't necessarily how you act off of it. Guys like Howie Long and Golic possess that same calm demeanor, but were on field animals. Some guys can flip the switch.
The difference is ego. Guys with big egos gotta have the last word, last swipe, last whatever. Guys like JT don't have that issue, they do their talking with the pads. Those are the guys you gotta watch out for.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
You got to love a guy who spurns social media, wants to own a museum some day as a paleontologist, but plays like his favorite raptor (Deinonychus) on game day.
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Problem with your comparison is that most OL are laid back dudes. I had a buddy that started at DE next to Aaron Donald and he always laughs about how OL are a different breed. Shove them after a play--most of them don't do anything. Talk about their mothers--same thing. Try the same stuff with a front 7 player and see what happens.
Joe fits that mold. Garrett does too, but he's at a position where you have to be an animal.
I don't know if I'd necessarily buy that. I'm a former OL and I've seen just as varied pool of mentality and temperament across the OL as any other position.
Even still, how you play on the field isn't necessarily how you act off of it. Guys like Howie Long and Golic possess that same calm demeanor, but were on field animals. Some guys can flip the switch.
The difference is ego. Guys with big egos gotta have the last word, last swipe, last whatever. Guys like JT don't have that issue, they do their talking with the pads. Those are the guys you gotta watch out for.
I don't know if I'd necessarily buy that. I'm a former OL and I've seen just as varied pool of mentality and temperament across the OL as any other position.
Even still, how you play on the field isn't necessarily how you act off of it. Guys like Howie Long and Golic possess that same calm demeanor, but were on field animals. Some guys can flip the switch.
The difference is ego. Guys with big egos gotta have the last word, last swipe, last whatever. Guys like JT don't have that issue, they do their talking with the pads. Those are the guys you gotta watch out for.
A buddy played against David Pollack when he was in college. Said that Pollack made animal noises the whole time and growl the entire game. Played out of his mind. Off the field, Pollack was mild mannered and friendly.
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I like this one .... no trades
Your Picks:Round 1 Pick 1: Myles Garrett, DE/OLB, Texas A&M (A+)Round 1 Pick 10: Dalvin Cook, RB, Florida State (A)Round 2 Pick 1: DeShone Kizer, QB, Notre Dame (B+)Round 2 Pick 15: Roderick Johnson, OT, Florida State (B+)Round 3 Pick 1: Chidobe Awuzie, CB, Colorado (B+)Round 4 Pick 1: Artavis Scott, WR, Clemson (A)Round 5 Pick 31: Vincent Taylor, DT, Oklahoma State (B+)Round 6 Pick 1: Johnathan Ford, FS, Auburn (A+)Obviously Kizer would not fall to 2nd round in reality -
You say 'obviously' but I'm not so sure.
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I like their on-field production almost as much as Garrett's and I'd be more inclined to go the Williams route if it weren't for Garrett's off-field personality and mentality. Granted, it may just be media overblowing things, but he gives off that Joe Thomas vibe to me - a laid back, non off-field threat, superstar who a fanbase can truly rally around.
Unfortunately, that torch is going to have to be passed here soon. Haden is okay, but he doesn't carry the same sort of reverence that JT does. I feel like Garrett could fill those shoes in terms of fan-favorite, all around great and talented player. Will he be a 9x Pro Bowler? That's a question I can't answer.
One thing that can't be discounted is reverence...or star power...or whatever you want to call it. I truly believe that it can equate to on-field production; its part of the reason why some guys can have monumental years and then collapse. What a lot of people sometimes fail to realize is that it takes two people to make a play. Sometimes, guys are beat before the play even starts just because they think they are. Garrett, so far, carries that kind of power in college. If he can bring that to the NFL, it would be worth the #1 pick for me, for sure.
There are 20 QBs in the league who can throw the ball better than Cam Newton, yet he's still the reigning MVP. There's a ton of other stuff that goes into that, but star power is definitely one of them.
Problem with your comparison is that most OL are laid back dudes. I had a buddy that started at DE next to Aaron Donald and he always laughs about how OL are a different breed. Shove them after a play--most of them don't do anything. Talk about their mothers--same thing. Try the same stuff with a front 7 player and see what happens.
Joe fits that mold. Garrett does too, but he's at a position where you have to be an animal.
Agree... Kizer might get squeezed towards Day 2 due to an excess of R1 talent this year, but it is easy to see someone pull an Oakland and move into the end of R1 to snatch him from us.
Problem with your comparison is that most OL are laid back dudes. I had a buddy that started at DE next to Aaron Donald and he always laughs about how OL are a different breed. Shove them after a play--most of them don't do anything. Talk about their mothers--same thing. Try the same stuff with a front 7 player and see what happens.
Joe fits that mold. Garrett does too, but he's at a position where you have to be an animal.
First thought: Incognito is laid back?
Second thought: It's the 2nd "shove" that gets flagged.
Biggest thought:
Back in "the day" there were a lot more "notorious" OL. Individually... Dobler, Shell, Schlereth... and collectively The Hogs. (Come to think of it... Is there a current OL that has a group nickname?). And back in the day teams ran as much as they passed... and the only run game was the power run game.
In today's game with its near 2:1 pass to run ratio I can see OL being more laid back. PassPro is a passive-ish activity. Run blocking? Depends on the scheme... ZBS is fairly passive as well. Even done well, success in PassPro is not exactly an adrenaline surge inducing event.
A sack on the other hand...
Frequency of success is a factor as well. Never thought of it quite like this before, but we canonize a DE who can average a sack a game... who in one play out of 30 or more per game succeeds.
Conversely the above DE's opposite is succeeding 29 times out of 30. Maybe it's not "passivity". Maybe it's familiarity.
I know I get a lot more excited draining a 10 foot putt than a 5 footer; 20 than 10; 40 than 20; etc... Once drained an 85 footer in a scramble tourney. Came out of my shoes, but that was back when I still could muster a 20" vertical leap.
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Ken Carmen said. . .Here ya go, Ag...
Browns have 'astronomical grade' on Texas A&M's Myles Garrett, per source
Adam Schefter ESPN Senior Writer As the 0-12 Cleveland Browns get closer to clinching the No. 1 overall draft pick, there is a real chance that the team will not use its top selection on a quarterback.The Browns have what one source close to the situation described as an "astronomical grade" on Texas A&M defensive end Myles Garrett, a blue-chip prospect who could dramatically upgrade Cleveland's defense. The Browns are enamored with Garrett, according to the source.
Then again it is Schefter...The Browns have an extremely high grade on a player who measures extremely high.
Welcome to progress.
Ken Carmen said. . .
The Browns have an extremely high grade on a player who measures extremely high.
Welcome to progress.
Does anyone trust the Browns grading system on player prospects.
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Ken Carmen said. . .
The Browns have an extremely high grade on a player who measures extremely high.
Welcome to progress.
Does anyone trust the Browns grading system on player prospects.
Does anyone trust the Browns grading system on player prospects.
You apparently did when you read that one article saying Mitch was their guy.
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Does anyone trust the Browns grading system on player prospects.
You apparently did when you read that one article saying Mitch was their guy.
You apparently did when you read that one article saying Mitch was their guy.
Having them express interest in a player....and trusting that they can evaluate talent are two different things. I don't trust them to believe that Mitch is the best player for the Browns....I trust myself. And I trust this FO enough to know that they HAVE to believe that they must get a QB of the future....that Kessler/RG ain't it....and that the best place to get that player is in the draft and the best place in the draft is at #1 overall, if there is a guy qualified there....which I think MT is. Most services have him as a Top 5 talent...and if he is in Top 5, that is sufficient to push a QB into the #1 spot....given the premium on QBs and the Browns needs.
Ya follow?
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You apparently did when you read that one article saying Mitch was their guy.
Having them express interest in a player....and trusting that they can evaluate talent are two different things. I don't trust them to believe that Mitch is the best player for the Browns....I trust myself. And I trust this FO enough to know that they HAVE to believe that they must get a QB of the future....that Kessler/RG ain't it....and that the best place to get that player is in the draft and the best place in the draft is at #1 overall, if there is a guy qualified there....which I think MT is. Most services have him as a Top 5 talent...and if he is in Top 5, that is sufficient to push a QB into the #1 spot....given the premium on QBs and the Browns needs.
Ya follow?
Having them express interest in a player....and trusting that they can evaluate talent are two different things. I don't trust them to believe that Mitch is the best player for the Browns....I trust myself. And I trust this FO enough to know that they HAVE to believe that they must get a QB of the future....that Kessler/RG ain't it....and that the best place to get that player is in the draft and the best place in the draft is at #1 overall, if there is a guy qualified there....which I think MT is. Most services have him as a Top 5 talent...and if he is in Top 5, that is sufficient to push a QB into the #1 spot....given the premium on QBs and the Browns needs.
Ya follow?
So you've been watching tape on Mitch and scouting him yourself then?
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Having them express interest in a player....and trusting that they can evaluate talent are two different things. I don't trust them to believe that Mitch is the best player for the Browns....I trust myself. And I trust this FO enough to know that they HAVE to believe that they must get a QB of the future....that Kessler/RG ain't it....and that the best place to get that player is in the draft and the best place in the draft is at #1 overall, if there is a guy qualified there....which I think MT is. Most services have him as a Top 5 talent...and if he is in Top 5, that is sufficient to push a QB into the #1 spot....given the premium on QBs and the Browns needs.
Ya follow?
So you've been watching tape on Mitch and scouting him yourself then?
So you've been watching tape on Mitch and scouting him yourself then?
I'm just gonna wait for the reply to this. I'm interested to know which is his best, most pro-ready game, which is his worst.
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