Draft Talk
-
Problem with your comparison is that most OL are laid back dudes. I had a buddy that started at DE next to Aaron Donald and he always laughs about how OL are a different breed. Shove them after a play--most of them don't do anything. Talk about their mothers--same thing. Try the same stuff with a front 7 player and see what happens.
Joe fits that mold. Garrett does too, but he's at a position where you have to be an animal.
I don't know if I'd necessarily buy that. I'm a former OL and I've seen just as varied pool of mentality and temperament across the OL as any other position.
Even still, how you play on the field isn't necessarily how you act off of it. Guys like Howie Long and Golic possess that same calm demeanor, but were on field animals. Some guys can flip the switch.
The difference is ego. Guys with big egos gotta have the last word, last swipe, last whatever. Guys like JT don't have that issue, they do their talking with the pads. Those are the guys you gotta watch out for.
I don't know if I'd necessarily buy that. I'm a former OL and I've seen just as varied pool of mentality and temperament across the OL as any other position.
Even still, how you play on the field isn't necessarily how you act off of it. Guys like Howie Long and Golic possess that same calm demeanor, but were on field animals. Some guys can flip the switch.
The difference is ego. Guys with big egos gotta have the last word, last swipe, last whatever. Guys like JT don't have that issue, they do their talking with the pads. Those are the guys you gotta watch out for.
A buddy played against David Pollack when he was in college. Said that Pollack made animal noises the whole time and growl the entire game. Played out of his mind. Off the field, Pollack was mild mannered and friendly.
-
I like this one .... no trades
Your Picks:Round 1 Pick 1: Myles Garrett, DE/OLB, Texas A&M (A+)Round 1 Pick 10: Dalvin Cook, RB, Florida State (A)Round 2 Pick 1: DeShone Kizer, QB, Notre Dame (B+)Round 2 Pick 15: Roderick Johnson, OT, Florida State (B+)Round 3 Pick 1: Chidobe Awuzie, CB, Colorado (B+)Round 4 Pick 1: Artavis Scott, WR, Clemson (A)Round 5 Pick 31: Vincent Taylor, DT, Oklahoma State (B+)Round 6 Pick 1: Johnathan Ford, FS, Auburn (A+)Obviously Kizer would not fall to 2nd round in reality -
You say 'obviously' but I'm not so sure.
-
I like their on-field production almost as much as Garrett's and I'd be more inclined to go the Williams route if it weren't for Garrett's off-field personality and mentality. Granted, it may just be media overblowing things, but he gives off that Joe Thomas vibe to me - a laid back, non off-field threat, superstar who a fanbase can truly rally around.
Unfortunately, that torch is going to have to be passed here soon. Haden is okay, but he doesn't carry the same sort of reverence that JT does. I feel like Garrett could fill those shoes in terms of fan-favorite, all around great and talented player. Will he be a 9x Pro Bowler? That's a question I can't answer.
One thing that can't be discounted is reverence...or star power...or whatever you want to call it. I truly believe that it can equate to on-field production; its part of the reason why some guys can have monumental years and then collapse. What a lot of people sometimes fail to realize is that it takes two people to make a play. Sometimes, guys are beat before the play even starts just because they think they are. Garrett, so far, carries that kind of power in college. If he can bring that to the NFL, it would be worth the #1 pick for me, for sure.
There are 20 QBs in the league who can throw the ball better than Cam Newton, yet he's still the reigning MVP. There's a ton of other stuff that goes into that, but star power is definitely one of them.
Problem with your comparison is that most OL are laid back dudes. I had a buddy that started at DE next to Aaron Donald and he always laughs about how OL are a different breed. Shove them after a play--most of them don't do anything. Talk about their mothers--same thing. Try the same stuff with a front 7 player and see what happens.
Joe fits that mold. Garrett does too, but he's at a position where you have to be an animal.
Agree... Kizer might get squeezed towards Day 2 due to an excess of R1 talent this year, but it is easy to see someone pull an Oakland and move into the end of R1 to snatch him from us.
Problem with your comparison is that most OL are laid back dudes. I had a buddy that started at DE next to Aaron Donald and he always laughs about how OL are a different breed. Shove them after a play--most of them don't do anything. Talk about their mothers--same thing. Try the same stuff with a front 7 player and see what happens.
Joe fits that mold. Garrett does too, but he's at a position where you have to be an animal.
First thought: Incognito is laid back?
Second thought: It's the 2nd "shove" that gets flagged.
Biggest thought:
Back in "the day" there were a lot more "notorious" OL. Individually... Dobler, Shell, Schlereth... and collectively The Hogs. (Come to think of it... Is there a current OL that has a group nickname?). And back in the day teams ran as much as they passed... and the only run game was the power run game.
In today's game with its near 2:1 pass to run ratio I can see OL being more laid back. PassPro is a passive-ish activity. Run blocking? Depends on the scheme... ZBS is fairly passive as well. Even done well, success in PassPro is not exactly an adrenaline surge inducing event.
A sack on the other hand...
Frequency of success is a factor as well. Never thought of it quite like this before, but we canonize a DE who can average a sack a game... who in one play out of 30 or more per game succeeds.
Conversely the above DE's opposite is succeeding 29 times out of 30. Maybe it's not "passivity". Maybe it's familiarity.
I know I get a lot more excited draining a 10 foot putt than a 5 footer; 20 than 10; 40 than 20; etc... Once drained an 85 footer in a scramble tourney. Came out of my shoes, but that was back when I still could muster a 20" vertical leap.
-
Ken Carmen said. . .Here ya go, Ag...
Browns have 'astronomical grade' on Texas A&M's Myles Garrett, per source
Adam Schefter ESPN Senior Writer As the 0-12 Cleveland Browns get closer to clinching the No. 1 overall draft pick, there is a real chance that the team will not use its top selection on a quarterback.The Browns have what one source close to the situation described as an "astronomical grade" on Texas A&M defensive end Myles Garrett, a blue-chip prospect who could dramatically upgrade Cleveland's defense. The Browns are enamored with Garrett, according to the source.
Then again it is Schefter...The Browns have an extremely high grade on a player who measures extremely high.
Welcome to progress.
Ken Carmen said. . .
The Browns have an extremely high grade on a player who measures extremely high.
Welcome to progress.
Does anyone trust the Browns grading system on player prospects.
-
Ken Carmen said. . .
The Browns have an extremely high grade on a player who measures extremely high.
Welcome to progress.
Does anyone trust the Browns grading system on player prospects.
Does anyone trust the Browns grading system on player prospects.
You apparently did when you read that one article saying Mitch was their guy.
-
Does anyone trust the Browns grading system on player prospects.
You apparently did when you read that one article saying Mitch was their guy.
You apparently did when you read that one article saying Mitch was their guy.
Having them express interest in a player....and trusting that they can evaluate talent are two different things. I don't trust them to believe that Mitch is the best player for the Browns....I trust myself. And I trust this FO enough to know that they HAVE to believe that they must get a QB of the future....that Kessler/RG ain't it....and that the best place to get that player is in the draft and the best place in the draft is at #1 overall, if there is a guy qualified there....which I think MT is. Most services have him as a Top 5 talent...and if he is in Top 5, that is sufficient to push a QB into the #1 spot....given the premium on QBs and the Browns needs.
Ya follow?
-
You apparently did when you read that one article saying Mitch was their guy.
Having them express interest in a player....and trusting that they can evaluate talent are two different things. I don't trust them to believe that Mitch is the best player for the Browns....I trust myself. And I trust this FO enough to know that they HAVE to believe that they must get a QB of the future....that Kessler/RG ain't it....and that the best place to get that player is in the draft and the best place in the draft is at #1 overall, if there is a guy qualified there....which I think MT is. Most services have him as a Top 5 talent...and if he is in Top 5, that is sufficient to push a QB into the #1 spot....given the premium on QBs and the Browns needs.
Ya follow?
Having them express interest in a player....and trusting that they can evaluate talent are two different things. I don't trust them to believe that Mitch is the best player for the Browns....I trust myself. And I trust this FO enough to know that they HAVE to believe that they must get a QB of the future....that Kessler/RG ain't it....and that the best place to get that player is in the draft and the best place in the draft is at #1 overall, if there is a guy qualified there....which I think MT is. Most services have him as a Top 5 talent...and if he is in Top 5, that is sufficient to push a QB into the #1 spot....given the premium on QBs and the Browns needs.
Ya follow?
So you've been watching tape on Mitch and scouting him yourself then?
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Having them express interest in a player....and trusting that they can evaluate talent are two different things. I don't trust them to believe that Mitch is the best player for the Browns....I trust myself. And I trust this FO enough to know that they HAVE to believe that they must get a QB of the future....that Kessler/RG ain't it....and that the best place to get that player is in the draft and the best place in the draft is at #1 overall, if there is a guy qualified there....which I think MT is. Most services have him as a Top 5 talent...and if he is in Top 5, that is sufficient to push a QB into the #1 spot....given the premium on QBs and the Browns needs.
Ya follow?
So you've been watching tape on Mitch and scouting him yourself then?
So you've been watching tape on Mitch and scouting him yourself then?
I'm just gonna wait for the reply to this. I'm interested to know which is his best, most pro-ready game, which is his worst.
-
Having them express interest in a player....and trusting that they can evaluate talent are two different things. I don't trust them to believe that Mitch is the best player for the Browns....I trust myself. And I trust this FO enough to know that they HAVE to believe that they must get a QB of the future....that Kessler/RG ain't it....and that the best place to get that player is in the draft and the best place in the draft is at #1 overall, if there is a guy qualified there....which I think MT is. Most services have him as a Top 5 talent...and if he is in Top 5, that is sufficient to push a QB into the #1 spot....given the premium on QBs and the Browns needs.
Ya follow?
So you've been watching tape on Mitch and scouting him yourself then?
So you've been watching tape on Mitch and scouting him yourself then?
A bit. But also, as I said, most other prospect surveys have him now in like the Top 5. So, its not like I made this shit up or something.
-
So you've been watching tape on Mitch and scouting him yourself then?
A bit. But also, as I said, most other prospect surveys have him now in like the Top 5. So, its not like I made this shit up or something.
A bit. But also, as I said, most other prospect surveys have him now in like the Top 5. So, its not like I made this shit up or something.
And most of those surveys have Garrett in the top 2. So do you believe Garrett is a better prospect than Mitch?
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
So you've been watching tape on Mitch and scouting him yourself then?
I'm just gonna wait for the reply to this. I'm interested to know which is his best, most pro-ready game, which is his worst.
I'm just gonna wait for the reply to this. I'm interested to know which is his best, most pro-ready game, which is his worst.
From the highlights and what I have seen on TV, it seems his game is absolutely pro style. Could he use more experience? Certainly. Who couldn't really. He is not perfect. Who is.
But, as a major prospect at a position of major need for the Browns....he makes sense.
Not saying he is absolutely THE slam dunk of the world....but he looks more pro capable than Goff or Wentz did.
-
A bit. But also, as I said, most other prospect surveys have him now in like the Top 5. So, its not like I made this shit up or something.
And most of those surveys have Garrett in the top 2. So do you believe Garrett is a better prospect than Mitch?
And most of those surveys have Garrett in the top 2. So do you believe Garrett is a better prospect than Mitch?
As a prospect, sure, Garrett is equal to Trubisky, apparently.
But Garrett is NOT a Quarterback. And if you saw my recent thread about #1 overall picked QBs....you know that a QB has been taken in that slot 14 times in the last 20 years. Again...hello....QBs get the premium treatment.
Plus...I think that the Browns can get a closer to Garrett like talent with the Eagles pick than they can get a Trubisky like talent with that pick.
Just my opinion.
But, hell.....let's go with PoG's suggestion. Trade up that Eagles pick so we take 1 and 2 and get them both. I'm game. What would it cost?
-
I have a feeling that my mind is going to change about a billion times during the next 5 months. Right now, I'm having a VERY hard time getting my mind off of Garrett. That speed around the edge, and his ability to actually stop the run are so tantalizing (did I say tantalizing?). With Ogbah stringing together a stretch of 8 games where he is top ten in the NFL in "QB Pressures", AND actually finishing a few sacks, the ability to put a speed rusher on the other side might be too much to pass over. Danny Shelton made a HUGE leap this year, and if he can get better next year, we could have consistent pressure from the sides AND the middle. That's how you completely bugger an offense. Toss in Desmond Bryant for good measure, and you have the beginning of a nasty front.
But...if we do that, we're back to the age old, "WTF do we do about the QB position?!". Best case scenario for us is that we fall in love with the other QB prospects. We're obviously NOT going to get both Garrett and Mitch, so we'll have to hope that either Watson is the real deal, or Kizer is better than many think. Kizer seems so difficult to fully evaluate because of the cluster chicken that is Notre Dame. Let's hope Hue Jackson and the front office know what they're doing.
Edit: Just saw a mock draft that had us taking Mitch with #1, and then Alabama's Rueben Foster with the Eagle's pick. He's a NASTY inside linebacker, and probably the hardest hitter in the entire draft. He does NOT mess around, and there are more than a few Browns' fans that would love a "nasty" type player enforcing the middle. The thing is....I don't understand where he'd play, assuming we manage to keep Collins. Kirksey is a good player, Collins is amazing...so what do you do? Move Collins to the outside and keep Kirksey and Foster inside? I dunno.
-
And most of those surveys have Garrett in the top 2. So do you believe Garrett is a better prospect than Mitch?
As a prospect, sure, Garrett is equal to Trubisky, apparently.
But Garrett is NOT a Quarterback. And if you saw my recent thread about #1 overall picked QBs....you know that a QB has been taken in that slot 14 times in the last 20 years. Again...hello....QBs get the premium treatment.
Plus...I think that the Browns can get a closer to Garrett like talent with the Eagles pick than they can get a Trubisky like talent with that pick.
Just my opinion.
But, hell.....let's go with PoG's suggestion. Trade up that Eagles pick so we take 1 and 2 and get them both. I'm game. What would it cost?
As a prospect, sure, Garrett is equal to Trubisky, apparently.
But Garrett is NOT a Quarterback. And if you saw my recent thread about #1 overall picked QBs....you know that a QB has been taken in that slot 14 times in the last 20 years. Again...hello....QBs get the premium treatment.
Plus...I think that the Browns can get a closer to Garrett like talent with the Eagles pick than they can get a Trubisky like talent with that pick.
Just my opinion.
But, hell.....let's go with PoG's suggestion. Trade up that Eagles pick so we take 1 and 2 and get them both. I'm game. What would it cost?
Ever consider that the QB premium might be inflating Mitch's stock?
-
As a prospect, sure, Garrett is equal to Trubisky, apparently.
But Garrett is NOT a Quarterback. And if you saw my recent thread about #1 overall picked QBs....you know that a QB has been taken in that slot 14 times in the last 20 years. Again...hello....QBs get the premium treatment.
Plus...I think that the Browns can get a closer to Garrett like talent with the Eagles pick than they can get a Trubisky like talent with that pick.
Just my opinion.
But, hell.....let's go with PoG's suggestion. Trade up that Eagles pick so we take 1 and 2 and get them both. I'm game. What would it cost?
Ever consider that the QB premium might be inflating Mitch's stock?
Ever consider that the QB premium might be inflating Mitch's stock?
Yes....just as it has inflated the stock of every QB drafted the last 20 years. But from what I have seen...in limited time, he fits right in with the upper echelon of those taken whose stock was either inflated or not.
-
So you've been watching tape on Mitch and scouting him yourself then?
A bit. But also, as I said, most other prospect surveys have him now in like the Top 5. So, its not like I made this shit up or something.
A bit.
Cool... sincerely... cool... More of this, please, and posts bringing what you see for discussion and debate. Less citing of mocks and rankings and "reports" of our intentions to bludgeon Mitch to the top of everyone's boards.
I have a feeling that my mind is going to change about a billion times during the next 5 months. Right now, I'm having a VERY hard time getting my mind off of Garrett. That speed around the edge, and his ability to actually stop the run are so tantalizing (did I say tantalizing?). With Ogbah stringing together a stretch of 8 games where he is top ten in the NFL in "QB Pressures", AND actually finishing a few sacks, the ability to put a speed rusher on the other side might be too much to pass over. Danny Shelton made a HUGE leap this year, and if he can get better next year, we could have consistent pressure from the sides AND the middle. That's how you completely bugger an offense. Toss in Desmond Bryant for good measure, and you have the beginning of a nasty front.
But...if we do that, we're back to the age old, "WTF do we do about the QB position?!". Best case scenario for us is that we fall in love with the other QB prospects. We're obviously NOT going to get both Garrett and Mitch, so we'll have to hope that either Watson is the real deal, or Kizer is better than many think. Kizer seems so difficult to fully evaluate because of the cluster chicken that is Notre Dame. Let's hope Hue Jackson and the front office know what they're doing.
Edit: Just saw a mock draft that had us taking Mitch with #1, and then Alabama's Rueben Foster with the Eagle's pick. He's a NASTY inside linebacker, and probably the hardest hitter in the entire draft. He does NOT mess around, and there are more than a few Browns' fans that would love a "nasty" type player enforcing the middle. The thing is....I don't understand where he'd play, assuming we manage to keep Collins. Kirksey is a good player, Collins is amazing...so what do you do? Move Collins to the outside and keep Kirksey and Foster inside? I dunno.
I'm moving Myles' way as well. Love Allen, and his fit, but every time I do the First-Pick thing, I can't pull the trigger on him at #1. Despite the assurances of Mud and others tho, I still suffer from Garrett-scheme-paranoia.
Assume we go Garrett and 4-3... Would Foster in the middle flanked by Collins and Kirksey, in an Iowa, OLB redux, float your boat?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Ever consider that the QB premium might be inflating Mitch's stock?
Yes....just as it has inflated the stock of every QB drafted the last 20 years. But from what I have seen...in limited time, he fits right in with the upper echelon of those taken whose stock was either inflated or not.
Yes....just as it has inflated the stock of every QB drafted the last 20 years. But from what I have seen...in limited time, he fits right in with the upper echelon of those taken whose stock was either inflated or not.
In your evaluation, what makes you think that Trubisky is on the level of Manning, Luck, Newton, Elway, Stafford, etc?
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
A bit.
Cool... sincerely... cool... More of this, please, and posts bringing what you see for discussion and debate. Less citing of mocks and rankings and "reports" of our intentions to bludgeon Mitch to the top of everyone's boards.
I have a feeling that my mind is going to change about a billion times during the next 5 months. Right now, I'm having a VERY hard time getting my mind off of Garrett. That speed around the edge, and his ability to actually stop the run are so tantalizing (did I say tantalizing?). With Ogbah stringing together a stretch of 8 games where he is top ten in the NFL in "QB Pressures", AND actually finishing a few sacks, the ability to put a speed rusher on the other side might be too much to pass over. Danny Shelton made a HUGE leap this year, and if he can get better next year, we could have consistent pressure from the sides AND the middle. That's how you completely bugger an offense. Toss in Desmond Bryant for good measure, and you have the beginning of a nasty front.
But...if we do that, we're back to the age old, "WTF do we do about the QB position?!". Best case scenario for us is that we fall in love with the other QB prospects. We're obviously NOT going to get both Garrett and Mitch, so we'll have to hope that either Watson is the real deal, or Kizer is better than many think. Kizer seems so difficult to fully evaluate because of the cluster chicken that is Notre Dame. Let's hope Hue Jackson and the front office know what they're doing.
Edit: Just saw a mock draft that had us taking Mitch with #1, and then Alabama's Rueben Foster with the Eagle's pick. He's a NASTY inside linebacker, and probably the hardest hitter in the entire draft. He does NOT mess around, and there are more than a few Browns' fans that would love a "nasty" type player enforcing the middle. The thing is....I don't understand where he'd play, assuming we manage to keep Collins. Kirksey is a good player, Collins is amazing...so what do you do? Move Collins to the outside and keep Kirksey and Foster inside? I dunno.
I'm moving Myles' way as well. Love Allen, and his fit, but every time I do the First-Pick thing, I can't pull the trigger on him at #1. Despite the assurances of Mud and others tho, I still suffer from Garrett-scheme-paranoia.
Assume we go Garrett and 4-3... Would Foster in the middle flanked by Collins and Kirksey, in an Iowa, OLB redux, float your boat?
Cool... sincerely... cool... More of this, please, and posts bringing what you see for discussion and debate. Less citing of mocks and rankings and "reports" of our intentions to bludgeon Mitch to the top of everyone's boards.
I'm moving Myles' way as well. Love Allen, and his fit, but every time I do the First-Pick thing, I can't pull the trigger on him at #1. Despite the assurances of Mud and others tho, I still suffer from Garrett-scheme-paranoia.
Assume we go Garrett and 4-3... Would Foster in the middle flanked by Collins and Kirksey, in an Iowa, OLB redux, float your boat?
I don't see why we'd have to subscribe one way or the other, to be honest. With Collins, Garrett, Kirksey, Nassib, Ogbah and Shelton on the field, we'd be able to transition from 3-4 to 4-3 on the field seamlessly.
4-3 LBs: ROLB Kirksey MLB Foster LOLB Collins
4-3 DL: RE Garrett DT Cooper?? DT Shelton LE Nassib/Ogbah
Moving to a 3-4, just trot Garrett back to ROLB and slide Cooper to RE. Having guys like Nassib, Ogbah, and Collins enables us to have a transformative defense.
-
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login