Draft Talk
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Does anyone trust the Browns grading system on player prospects.
You apparently did when you read that one article saying Mitch was their guy.
You apparently did when you read that one article saying Mitch was their guy.
Having them express interest in a player....and trusting that they can evaluate talent are two different things. I don't trust them to believe that Mitch is the best player for the Browns....I trust myself. And I trust this FO enough to know that they HAVE to believe that they must get a QB of the future....that Kessler/RG ain't it....and that the best place to get that player is in the draft and the best place in the draft is at #1 overall, if there is a guy qualified there....which I think MT is. Most services have him as a Top 5 talent...and if he is in Top 5, that is sufficient to push a QB into the #1 spot....given the premium on QBs and the Browns needs.
Ya follow?
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You apparently did when you read that one article saying Mitch was their guy.
Having them express interest in a player....and trusting that they can evaluate talent are two different things. I don't trust them to believe that Mitch is the best player for the Browns....I trust myself. And I trust this FO enough to know that they HAVE to believe that they must get a QB of the future....that Kessler/RG ain't it....and that the best place to get that player is in the draft and the best place in the draft is at #1 overall, if there is a guy qualified there....which I think MT is. Most services have him as a Top 5 talent...and if he is in Top 5, that is sufficient to push a QB into the #1 spot....given the premium on QBs and the Browns needs.
Ya follow?
Having them express interest in a player....and trusting that they can evaluate talent are two different things. I don't trust them to believe that Mitch is the best player for the Browns....I trust myself. And I trust this FO enough to know that they HAVE to believe that they must get a QB of the future....that Kessler/RG ain't it....and that the best place to get that player is in the draft and the best place in the draft is at #1 overall, if there is a guy qualified there....which I think MT is. Most services have him as a Top 5 talent...and if he is in Top 5, that is sufficient to push a QB into the #1 spot....given the premium on QBs and the Browns needs.
Ya follow?
So you've been watching tape on Mitch and scouting him yourself then?
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Having them express interest in a player....and trusting that they can evaluate talent are two different things. I don't trust them to believe that Mitch is the best player for the Browns....I trust myself. And I trust this FO enough to know that they HAVE to believe that they must get a QB of the future....that Kessler/RG ain't it....and that the best place to get that player is in the draft and the best place in the draft is at #1 overall, if there is a guy qualified there....which I think MT is. Most services have him as a Top 5 talent...and if he is in Top 5, that is sufficient to push a QB into the #1 spot....given the premium on QBs and the Browns needs.
Ya follow?
So you've been watching tape on Mitch and scouting him yourself then?
So you've been watching tape on Mitch and scouting him yourself then?
I'm just gonna wait for the reply to this. I'm interested to know which is his best, most pro-ready game, which is his worst.
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Having them express interest in a player....and trusting that they can evaluate talent are two different things. I don't trust them to believe that Mitch is the best player for the Browns....I trust myself. And I trust this FO enough to know that they HAVE to believe that they must get a QB of the future....that Kessler/RG ain't it....and that the best place to get that player is in the draft and the best place in the draft is at #1 overall, if there is a guy qualified there....which I think MT is. Most services have him as a Top 5 talent...and if he is in Top 5, that is sufficient to push a QB into the #1 spot....given the premium on QBs and the Browns needs.
Ya follow?
So you've been watching tape on Mitch and scouting him yourself then?
So you've been watching tape on Mitch and scouting him yourself then?
A bit. But also, as I said, most other prospect surveys have him now in like the Top 5. So, its not like I made this shit up or something.
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So you've been watching tape on Mitch and scouting him yourself then?
A bit. But also, as I said, most other prospect surveys have him now in like the Top 5. So, its not like I made this shit up or something.
A bit. But also, as I said, most other prospect surveys have him now in like the Top 5. So, its not like I made this shit up or something.
And most of those surveys have Garrett in the top 2. So do you believe Garrett is a better prospect than Mitch?
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
So you've been watching tape on Mitch and scouting him yourself then?
I'm just gonna wait for the reply to this. I'm interested to know which is his best, most pro-ready game, which is his worst.
I'm just gonna wait for the reply to this. I'm interested to know which is his best, most pro-ready game, which is his worst.
From the highlights and what I have seen on TV, it seems his game is absolutely pro style. Could he use more experience? Certainly. Who couldn't really. He is not perfect. Who is.
But, as a major prospect at a position of major need for the Browns....he makes sense.
Not saying he is absolutely THE slam dunk of the world....but he looks more pro capable than Goff or Wentz did.
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A bit. But also, as I said, most other prospect surveys have him now in like the Top 5. So, its not like I made this shit up or something.
And most of those surveys have Garrett in the top 2. So do you believe Garrett is a better prospect than Mitch?
And most of those surveys have Garrett in the top 2. So do you believe Garrett is a better prospect than Mitch?
As a prospect, sure, Garrett is equal to Trubisky, apparently.
But Garrett is NOT a Quarterback. And if you saw my recent thread about #1 overall picked QBs....you know that a QB has been taken in that slot 14 times in the last 20 years. Again...hello....QBs get the premium treatment.
Plus...I think that the Browns can get a closer to Garrett like talent with the Eagles pick than they can get a Trubisky like talent with that pick.
Just my opinion.
But, hell.....let's go with PoG's suggestion. Trade up that Eagles pick so we take 1 and 2 and get them both. I'm game. What would it cost?
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I have a feeling that my mind is going to change about a billion times during the next 5 months. Right now, I'm having a VERY hard time getting my mind off of Garrett. That speed around the edge, and his ability to actually stop the run are so tantalizing (did I say tantalizing?). With Ogbah stringing together a stretch of 8 games where he is top ten in the NFL in "QB Pressures", AND actually finishing a few sacks, the ability to put a speed rusher on the other side might be too much to pass over. Danny Shelton made a HUGE leap this year, and if he can get better next year, we could have consistent pressure from the sides AND the middle. That's how you completely bugger an offense. Toss in Desmond Bryant for good measure, and you have the beginning of a nasty front.
But...if we do that, we're back to the age old, "WTF do we do about the QB position?!". Best case scenario for us is that we fall in love with the other QB prospects. We're obviously NOT going to get both Garrett and Mitch, so we'll have to hope that either Watson is the real deal, or Kizer is better than many think. Kizer seems so difficult to fully evaluate because of the cluster chicken that is Notre Dame. Let's hope Hue Jackson and the front office know what they're doing.
Edit: Just saw a mock draft that had us taking Mitch with #1, and then Alabama's Rueben Foster with the Eagle's pick. He's a NASTY inside linebacker, and probably the hardest hitter in the entire draft. He does NOT mess around, and there are more than a few Browns' fans that would love a "nasty" type player enforcing the middle. The thing is....I don't understand where he'd play, assuming we manage to keep Collins. Kirksey is a good player, Collins is amazing...so what do you do? Move Collins to the outside and keep Kirksey and Foster inside? I dunno.
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And most of those surveys have Garrett in the top 2. So do you believe Garrett is a better prospect than Mitch?
As a prospect, sure, Garrett is equal to Trubisky, apparently.
But Garrett is NOT a Quarterback. And if you saw my recent thread about #1 overall picked QBs....you know that a QB has been taken in that slot 14 times in the last 20 years. Again...hello....QBs get the premium treatment.
Plus...I think that the Browns can get a closer to Garrett like talent with the Eagles pick than they can get a Trubisky like talent with that pick.
Just my opinion.
But, hell.....let's go with PoG's suggestion. Trade up that Eagles pick so we take 1 and 2 and get them both. I'm game. What would it cost?
As a prospect, sure, Garrett is equal to Trubisky, apparently.
But Garrett is NOT a Quarterback. And if you saw my recent thread about #1 overall picked QBs....you know that a QB has been taken in that slot 14 times in the last 20 years. Again...hello....QBs get the premium treatment.
Plus...I think that the Browns can get a closer to Garrett like talent with the Eagles pick than they can get a Trubisky like talent with that pick.
Just my opinion.
But, hell.....let's go with PoG's suggestion. Trade up that Eagles pick so we take 1 and 2 and get them both. I'm game. What would it cost?
Ever consider that the QB premium might be inflating Mitch's stock?
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As a prospect, sure, Garrett is equal to Trubisky, apparently.
But Garrett is NOT a Quarterback. And if you saw my recent thread about #1 overall picked QBs....you know that a QB has been taken in that slot 14 times in the last 20 years. Again...hello....QBs get the premium treatment.
Plus...I think that the Browns can get a closer to Garrett like talent with the Eagles pick than they can get a Trubisky like talent with that pick.
Just my opinion.
But, hell.....let's go with PoG's suggestion. Trade up that Eagles pick so we take 1 and 2 and get them both. I'm game. What would it cost?
Ever consider that the QB premium might be inflating Mitch's stock?
Ever consider that the QB premium might be inflating Mitch's stock?
Yes....just as it has inflated the stock of every QB drafted the last 20 years. But from what I have seen...in limited time, he fits right in with the upper echelon of those taken whose stock was either inflated or not.
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So you've been watching tape on Mitch and scouting him yourself then?
A bit. But also, as I said, most other prospect surveys have him now in like the Top 5. So, its not like I made this shit up or something.
A bit.
Cool... sincerely... cool... More of this, please, and posts bringing what you see for discussion and debate. Less citing of mocks and rankings and "reports" of our intentions to bludgeon Mitch to the top of everyone's boards.
I have a feeling that my mind is going to change about a billion times during the next 5 months. Right now, I'm having a VERY hard time getting my mind off of Garrett. That speed around the edge, and his ability to actually stop the run are so tantalizing (did I say tantalizing?). With Ogbah stringing together a stretch of 8 games where he is top ten in the NFL in "QB Pressures", AND actually finishing a few sacks, the ability to put a speed rusher on the other side might be too much to pass over. Danny Shelton made a HUGE leap this year, and if he can get better next year, we could have consistent pressure from the sides AND the middle. That's how you completely bugger an offense. Toss in Desmond Bryant for good measure, and you have the beginning of a nasty front.
But...if we do that, we're back to the age old, "WTF do we do about the QB position?!". Best case scenario for us is that we fall in love with the other QB prospects. We're obviously NOT going to get both Garrett and Mitch, so we'll have to hope that either Watson is the real deal, or Kizer is better than many think. Kizer seems so difficult to fully evaluate because of the cluster chicken that is Notre Dame. Let's hope Hue Jackson and the front office know what they're doing.
Edit: Just saw a mock draft that had us taking Mitch with #1, and then Alabama's Rueben Foster with the Eagle's pick. He's a NASTY inside linebacker, and probably the hardest hitter in the entire draft. He does NOT mess around, and there are more than a few Browns' fans that would love a "nasty" type player enforcing the middle. The thing is....I don't understand where he'd play, assuming we manage to keep Collins. Kirksey is a good player, Collins is amazing...so what do you do? Move Collins to the outside and keep Kirksey and Foster inside? I dunno.
I'm moving Myles' way as well. Love Allen, and his fit, but every time I do the First-Pick thing, I can't pull the trigger on him at #1. Despite the assurances of Mud and others tho, I still suffer from Garrett-scheme-paranoia.
Assume we go Garrett and 4-3... Would Foster in the middle flanked by Collins and Kirksey, in an Iowa, OLB redux, float your boat?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Ever consider that the QB premium might be inflating Mitch's stock?
Yes....just as it has inflated the stock of every QB drafted the last 20 years. But from what I have seen...in limited time, he fits right in with the upper echelon of those taken whose stock was either inflated or not.
Yes....just as it has inflated the stock of every QB drafted the last 20 years. But from what I have seen...in limited time, he fits right in with the upper echelon of those taken whose stock was either inflated or not.
In your evaluation, what makes you think that Trubisky is on the level of Manning, Luck, Newton, Elway, Stafford, etc?
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
A bit.
Cool... sincerely... cool... More of this, please, and posts bringing what you see for discussion and debate. Less citing of mocks and rankings and "reports" of our intentions to bludgeon Mitch to the top of everyone's boards.
I have a feeling that my mind is going to change about a billion times during the next 5 months. Right now, I'm having a VERY hard time getting my mind off of Garrett. That speed around the edge, and his ability to actually stop the run are so tantalizing (did I say tantalizing?). With Ogbah stringing together a stretch of 8 games where he is top ten in the NFL in "QB Pressures", AND actually finishing a few sacks, the ability to put a speed rusher on the other side might be too much to pass over. Danny Shelton made a HUGE leap this year, and if he can get better next year, we could have consistent pressure from the sides AND the middle. That's how you completely bugger an offense. Toss in Desmond Bryant for good measure, and you have the beginning of a nasty front.
But...if we do that, we're back to the age old, "WTF do we do about the QB position?!". Best case scenario for us is that we fall in love with the other QB prospects. We're obviously NOT going to get both Garrett and Mitch, so we'll have to hope that either Watson is the real deal, or Kizer is better than many think. Kizer seems so difficult to fully evaluate because of the cluster chicken that is Notre Dame. Let's hope Hue Jackson and the front office know what they're doing.
Edit: Just saw a mock draft that had us taking Mitch with #1, and then Alabama's Rueben Foster with the Eagle's pick. He's a NASTY inside linebacker, and probably the hardest hitter in the entire draft. He does NOT mess around, and there are more than a few Browns' fans that would love a "nasty" type player enforcing the middle. The thing is....I don't understand where he'd play, assuming we manage to keep Collins. Kirksey is a good player, Collins is amazing...so what do you do? Move Collins to the outside and keep Kirksey and Foster inside? I dunno.
I'm moving Myles' way as well. Love Allen, and his fit, but every time I do the First-Pick thing, I can't pull the trigger on him at #1. Despite the assurances of Mud and others tho, I still suffer from Garrett-scheme-paranoia.
Assume we go Garrett and 4-3... Would Foster in the middle flanked by Collins and Kirksey, in an Iowa, OLB redux, float your boat?
Cool... sincerely... cool... More of this, please, and posts bringing what you see for discussion and debate. Less citing of mocks and rankings and "reports" of our intentions to bludgeon Mitch to the top of everyone's boards.
I'm moving Myles' way as well. Love Allen, and his fit, but every time I do the First-Pick thing, I can't pull the trigger on him at #1. Despite the assurances of Mud and others tho, I still suffer from Garrett-scheme-paranoia.
Assume we go Garrett and 4-3... Would Foster in the middle flanked by Collins and Kirksey, in an Iowa, OLB redux, float your boat?
I don't see why we'd have to subscribe one way or the other, to be honest. With Collins, Garrett, Kirksey, Nassib, Ogbah and Shelton on the field, we'd be able to transition from 3-4 to 4-3 on the field seamlessly.
4-3 LBs: ROLB Kirksey MLB Foster LOLB Collins
4-3 DL: RE Garrett DT Cooper?? DT Shelton LE Nassib/Ogbah
Moving to a 3-4, just trot Garrett back to ROLB and slide Cooper to RE. Having guys like Nassib, Ogbah, and Collins enables us to have a transformative defense.
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A bit.
Cool... sincerely... cool... More of this, please, and posts bringing what you see for discussion and debate. Less citing of mocks and rankings and "reports" of our intentions to bludgeon Mitch to the top of everyone's boards.
I have a feeling that my mind is going to change about a billion times during the next 5 months. Right now, I'm having a VERY hard time getting my mind off of Garrett. That speed around the edge, and his ability to actually stop the run are so tantalizing (did I say tantalizing?). With Ogbah stringing together a stretch of 8 games where he is top ten in the NFL in "QB Pressures", AND actually finishing a few sacks, the ability to put a speed rusher on the other side might be too much to pass over. Danny Shelton made a HUGE leap this year, and if he can get better next year, we could have consistent pressure from the sides AND the middle. That's how you completely bugger an offense. Toss in Desmond Bryant for good measure, and you have the beginning of a nasty front.
But...if we do that, we're back to the age old, "WTF do we do about the QB position?!". Best case scenario for us is that we fall in love with the other QB prospects. We're obviously NOT going to get both Garrett and Mitch, so we'll have to hope that either Watson is the real deal, or Kizer is better than many think. Kizer seems so difficult to fully evaluate because of the cluster chicken that is Notre Dame. Let's hope Hue Jackson and the front office know what they're doing.
Edit: Just saw a mock draft that had us taking Mitch with #1, and then Alabama's Rueben Foster with the Eagle's pick. He's a NASTY inside linebacker, and probably the hardest hitter in the entire draft. He does NOT mess around, and there are more than a few Browns' fans that would love a "nasty" type player enforcing the middle. The thing is....I don't understand where he'd play, assuming we manage to keep Collins. Kirksey is a good player, Collins is amazing...so what do you do? Move Collins to the outside and keep Kirksey and Foster inside? I dunno.
I'm moving Myles' way as well. Love Allen, and his fit, but every time I do the First-Pick thing, I can't pull the trigger on him at #1. Despite the assurances of Mud and others tho, I still suffer from Garrett-scheme-paranoia.
Assume we go Garrett and 4-3... Would Foster in the middle flanked by Collins and Kirksey, in an Iowa, OLB redux, float your boat?
Cool... sincerely... cool... More of this, please, and posts bringing what you see for discussion and debate. Less citing of mocks and rankings and "reports" of our intentions to bludgeon Mitch to the top of everyone's boards.
I am not sure why you would want to hear more of my opinion about this, really. As I am not an expert. I know that I like what I see. I am assuming that those doing the mocks and rankings are done by professionals.
So...perhaps you should be thankful that I do list the opinions of those others....as, if you really want my opinions, those can be had by the payment of my hourly rate. Where should I send my invoice?
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Yes....just as it has inflated the stock of every QB drafted the last 20 years. But from what I have seen...in limited time, he fits right in with the upper echelon of those taken whose stock was either inflated or not.
In your evaluation, what makes you think that Trubisky is on the level of Manning, Luck, Newton, Elway, Stafford, etc?
In your evaluation, what makes you think that Trubisky is on the level of Manning, Luck, Newton, Elway, Stafford, etc?
Well, from my unprofessional point of view (unless you too wish to be paying me for my professional point of view), I just see a certain innate talent.
Marino/Namath like quickness of release. As strong an arm as any of those (except probably Elway....who has ever had a stronger arm). Accuracy, poise. Mobility. Touch.
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Cool... sincerely... cool... More of this, please, and posts bringing what you see for discussion and debate. Less citing of mocks and rankings and "reports" of our intentions to bludgeon Mitch to the top of everyone's boards.
I am not sure why you would want to hear more of my opinion about this, really. As I am not an expert. I know that I like what I see. I am assuming that those doing the mocks and rankings are done by professionals.
So...perhaps you should be thankful that I do list the opinions of those others....as, if you really want my opinions, those can be had by the payment of my hourly rate. Where should I send my invoice?
I am not sure why you would want to hear more of my opinion about this, really. As I am not an expert. I know that I like what I see. I am assuming that those doing the mocks and rankings are done by professionals.
So...perhaps you should be thankful that I do list the opinions of those others....as, if you really want my opinions, those can be had by the payment of my hourly rate. Where should I send my invoice?
Did you mean to say "stick"?
Because it's your opinion of a player vs. your opinion of an opinion or opinions.
Shit, Gip... we're all amateur evaluators here... something you remind us of almost daily. And we can also all read mocks and rankings... whenever we want to.
Right now, I choose to pretty much ignore the published stuff. With so much time to go... so many league-wide needs TBD... so many underclassmen yet to decide... I find that it's just not worth the time yet.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
A bit.
Cool... sincerely... cool... More of this, please, and posts bringing what you see for discussion and debate. Less citing of mocks and rankings and "reports" of our intentions to bludgeon Mitch to the top of everyone's boards.
I have a feeling that my mind is going to change about a billion times during the next 5 months. Right now, I'm having a VERY hard time getting my mind off of Garrett. That speed around the edge, and his ability to actually stop the run are so tantalizing (did I say tantalizing?). With Ogbah stringing together a stretch of 8 games where he is top ten in the NFL in "QB Pressures", AND actually finishing a few sacks, the ability to put a speed rusher on the other side might be too much to pass over. Danny Shelton made a HUGE leap this year, and if he can get better next year, we could have consistent pressure from the sides AND the middle. That's how you completely bugger an offense. Toss in Desmond Bryant for good measure, and you have the beginning of a nasty front.
But...if we do that, we're back to the age old, "WTF do we do about the QB position?!". Best case scenario for us is that we fall in love with the other QB prospects. We're obviously NOT going to get both Garrett and Mitch, so we'll have to hope that either Watson is the real deal, or Kizer is better than many think. Kizer seems so difficult to fully evaluate because of the cluster chicken that is Notre Dame. Let's hope Hue Jackson and the front office know what they're doing.
Edit: Just saw a mock draft that had us taking Mitch with #1, and then Alabama's Rueben Foster with the Eagle's pick. He's a NASTY inside linebacker, and probably the hardest hitter in the entire draft. He does NOT mess around, and there are more than a few Browns' fans that would love a "nasty" type player enforcing the middle. The thing is....I don't understand where he'd play, assuming we manage to keep Collins. Kirksey is a good player, Collins is amazing...so what do you do? Move Collins to the outside and keep Kirksey and Foster inside? I dunno.
I'm moving Myles' way as well. Love Allen, and his fit, but every time I do the First-Pick thing, I can't pull the trigger on him at #1. Despite the assurances of Mud and others tho, I still suffer from Garrett-scheme-paranoia.
Assume we go Garrett and 4-3... Would Foster in the middle flanked by Collins and Kirksey, in an Iowa, OLB redux, float your boat?
Cool... sincerely... cool... More of this, please, and posts bringing what you see for discussion and debate. Less citing of mocks and rankings and "reports" of our intentions to bludgeon Mitch to the top of everyone's boards.
I'm moving Myles' way as well. Love Allen, and his fit, but every time I do the First-Pick thing, I can't pull the trigger on him at #1. Despite the assurances of Mud and others tho, I still suffer from Garrett-scheme-paranoia.
Assume we go Garrett and 4-3... Would Foster in the middle flanked by Collins and Kirksey, in an Iowa, OLB redux, float your boat?
Ya...it sure as hell WOULD. I think Dick LaBeaux (sp?) once said, "You can NEVER have enough linebackers." Obviously, he was speaking in terms of a 3-4, but I believe it applies to our 4-3 as well. For all intents and purposes, we pretty much play a 4-3 now. I'm guessing our front 4 would look something like Ogbah, Shelton, D. Bryant, and Nassib. Our linebackers would then be Kirksey, Foster, and Collins. Now, I don't want to get ahead of myself, but geez...that doesn't actually look terrible. However, if we take Foster with Eagles' pick, we obviously can't take Garrett with our first pick because of the whole "we still don't have an effing QB" thingy. We take Foster, we have to go QB first. UNLESS we have a guy identified that will be available in the second, but then the odds of finding a "day 1" starter get pretty low. And make no bones about it, we NEED a day 1 starter.
There's one more option, and most aren't going to like it. Many years there are QB's (and other players) that slip in the first round for whatever reason. Maybe they had a bad pro day, didn't run as fast, or scored low on the Wonderlic. Remember how Teddy Twatwater was the #1 pick all year, and then all of the sudden he was thin, had a weak arm, and lord knows what else? Suppose we take Garrett first, then Foster with next pick...and then someone like Kizer or Watson starts to slip. He gets past the teams that need a QB, and the "QB rich" teams obviously pass on him. Then...we're sitting with the first pick of the second round....and then we TRADE UP to grab our QB. We have the resources to make this happen. Day 1 could very easily look like Garrett, Foster, and Watson. We get the dynamic pass rusher to go opposite Ogbah (sorry Nassib, haven't shown me anything lately), who is also stout against the run. Keep in mind that Garrett is VERY young, and his frame could easily hold another 15 pounds without sacrificing much speed. Then you add Foster...the ruthless, feared enforcer we desperately need. And make no mistake about it, we NEED somebody to instill FEAR inside the opposition. You want your TE to come across the middle?? Ok, well he's about to visit La-La Land. Then you tack on Watson, perhaps the most important of everyone. Would it hurt to give up resources? Hell yes. But if we grade Watson out to be a starter....then it's completely worth it.
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