Trade Down Implications
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you guys always say things better than i do so i end up doing more reading than posting, so i just wanted to give some credit to WPB Dawg Fan for breaking this down so well, and let him know that i used his breakdown on my humble blog:
http://bmer916.blogspot.com/2009/05/my-fee...owns-draft.html
Also, living here in Denver, i gotta say i'm feeling much better about the Browns this season than Bronco fans are feeling about Denver. and i'm glad our connection to the Patriots is Mangini and not McDaniels or Weiss.
Go Browns.
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To quote Michael Corleone from The Godfather: "It's the smart move. Tessio was always smarter." Well this draft was the "smart move" for Kokinis, Mangini, and the rest of the Browns organization.
Get out of the top five which is barren of top five talent in our need areas. Check.
Acquire extra picks. Check.
Fill areas of need, at least temporarily, with veterans in the trade. Check.
Save millions against the cap. Check.
Choose a player at a need area that at least one other team in your division coveted. Check.
Draft intelligent, hard-working, 'students' of the game. Check.
What about that can you not like?
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My son & I discussed how Mangini, Kokinis, et al just played this draft like a fiddle. They orchestrated a LOT from very little & came away with a lot of very solid picks & established players.
In addition, they made some sportswriters come out being the gossip columnists they now are
.....I won't read most of their stuff anymore as they have ZERO credibility..at least in MY book.It appears the Browns are finally heading down the right road, & they're doing it the right way. Kudos to the Mangini, Kokinis, & the rest of their team.
Mike
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No doubt it reverberates all the way down the roster.
It allows Mangini to build the team in his image, which is a very important aspect you don't mentions.
Coaches have to feel like they have their guys. I think now he does.
Good post.
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One other thing that bothers me about some of these so-called experts: they're fairly critical of the Robiskie pick because he'll "only be a #2 at best, maybe a #3 receiver."
My answer to that is so the hell what?
He's never been a legit #1 receiver anyway and to think that the Browns think otherwise is ludicrous. Of course the Browns drafted him knowing he won't be a #1 receiver. Leave that to the Edwardses and Fitzgeralds of the league.
What they should be talking about is how GOOD of a #2/#3 receiver the Browns are getting. This is a precise route runner with excellent hands and a family background that reeks of knowledge of the position.
Mangini & Kokinis grabbed this guy not because they HOPED he'd develop into a #1, but instead because they KNOW they will have a solid #2/#3 receiver for years to come. Again, the smart move. Think about it. Has Hines Ward ever been Pittsburgh's #1? No, but he's been kicking our ass for years. Let's hope Robiskie can turn the tables a bit in the near future.
...searching for Nev Chandler..."5,4,3,2,1, Touchdown Browns!! -
Killer thread guys some real smart analogies in here. I agree wholeheartedly about the Robiskie thing that NW says, that's spot on.
For the first time since they've been back, I have a confident feeling that these guys get it. Mancock are both on the same page and they seem to get along great, also. I get the impression they share the same philosophy across the board. If this draft is any indication these guys are really going to get this thing turned around and keep it there.
Think about it, they really manipulated this draft. I get a chuckle out of the national media that first said nobody will trade up cuz it's impossible to trade down, and then said the Browns didn't get enough from the Jets. LMFAO!!!
Are you kidding me? Granted, we don't know what these picks are going to do yet but I just have good feelings about it. It just goes to show how colossally stupid some of our prior regimes were when it came to blowing money on big name picks and not stockpiling depth and talent. I'm not a Couch hater but Policy and Clark screwed us out the gate by not stockpiling and it snowballed thereafter.
I'm thinking they have a chance to compete this year and who knows, it could be exciting. We certainly had high expectations that came crashing down last year from the schedule and injuries (and DA/Edwards sucking balls) but this team could surprise. I'm excited about the possibilities this season brings. We will be watching Quinn finally and I have the feeling Edwards will play out his ass during his FA to be season. I'm actually glad they kept Edwards and didn't give in to the Gmen, they didn't offer enough. They got their picks in other ways.
Note to Puker fags and guys like Soldier boy (my what a breath of fresh air that guy is
This is not a prediction for the Super Bowl, simply an optimistic outlook on things in anticipation of a new look squad this year based on a damn good draft and planning.BTW, I have a gyutt feeling Carey is going to be a huge surprise.
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I see 3 or 4 main players on that list that should be resigned.......Depending on the contract situation between the players and the league, these guys may not end up being UFA's, but rather RFA's.
What I like most about the savings is the possibilty of signing a few FA's away from other clubs. That excites more that the list of Browns who will be UFA's and can be resigned.
One guy that I have liked since he came out of Cal is OT Ryan O'Callaghan. A 6-7 330 lb road grader that I'd love to steal away from the Patriots next year. He'd be a fine right OT.
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One other thing that bothers me about some of these so-called experts: they're fairly critical of the Robiskie pick because he'll "only be a #2 at best, maybe a #3 receiver."
My answer to that is so the hell what?
He's never been a legit #1 receiver anyway and to think that the Browns think otherwise is ludicrous. Of course the Browns drafted him knowing he won't be a #1 receiver. Leave that to the Edwardses and Fitzgeralds of the league.
What they should be talking about is how GOOD of a #2/#3 receiver the Browns are getting. This is a precise route runner with excellent hands and a family background that reeks of knowledge of the position.
Mangini & Kokinis grabbed this guy not because they HOPED he'd develop into a #1, but instead because they KNOW they will have a solid #2/#3 receiver for years to come. Again, the smart move. Think about it. Has Hines Ward ever been Pittsburgh's #1? No, but he's been kicking our ass for years. Let's hope Robiskie can turn the tables a bit in the near future.
One other thing that bothers me about some of these so-called experts: they're fairly critical of the Robiskie pick because he'll "only be a #2 at best, maybe a #3 receiver."
My answer to that is so the hell what?
He's never been a legit #1 receiver anyway and to think that the Browns think otherwise is ludicrous. Of course the Browns drafted him knowing he won't be a #1 receiver. Leave that to the Edwardses and Fitzgeralds of the league.
What they should be talking about is how GOOD of a #2/#3 receiver the Browns are getting. This is a precise route runner with excellent hands and a family background that reeks of knowledge of the position.
Mangini & Kokinis grabbed this guy not because they HOPED he'd develop into a #1, but instead because they KNOW they will have a solid #2/#3 receiver for years to come. Again, the smart move. Think about it. Has Hines Ward ever been Pittsburgh's #1? No, but he's been kicking our ass for years. Let's hope Robiskie can turn the tables a bit in the near future.
I agree.
I have never bought in to this guy is #1 and this guy is #2.
The #1 receiver on any given play is the receiver who is about a foot away from the thrown ball.
You are #1 when the ball is headed your way........catch it.
It's like i told my baseball players....the most important position and player on the field was the player at bat or the player where the hit ball was headed.
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I'm not sure what people refer to exactly when they talk about a #1 or #2 WR, but Hines Ward, while he may not be the classic #1 but a #1 he is. The guy has averaged 80 catches a year since he started ten years ago.
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WPB Dawg Fan, Bravo to ya bro. This kind of shit gets me excited, but I am always excited about the up coming season. It never fails, we always suck, but this year kinda has a different beginning feel t it. We have good talent at pretty much every position. We will gel as one unit and fight as one team.
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So, at this point in time, it sure seems like Lerner did the right thing. Mangini looks like a pro. He is working hard and working smart.
The Browns have coach with a plan and it feels damn good.
Someone at The Plain Dealer should be writing and article with points from this thread.
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So, at this point in time, it sure seems like Lerner did the right thing. Mangini looks like a pro. He is working hard and working smart.
The Browns have coach with a plan and it feels damn good.
Someone at The Plain Dealer should be writing and article with points from this thread.
So, at this point in time, it sure seems like Lerner did the right thing. Mangini looks like a pro. He is working hard and working smart.
The Browns have coach with a plan and it feels damn good.
Someone at The Plain Dealer should be writing and article with points from this thread.
I'll second that Ocon.
Of all the places to go for Browns news , info and just stuff in general this is the first place I go.
I've gotta go back even further than this thread to say, thanks Stan for putting this website together. This place can take on a life of its own sometimes but insight like this thread make all the other BS worth sifting through.
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When we traded from #5 overall down to 21 (eventually) the Browns got a lot more than just 3 players and a pick. A LOT MORE!!!
All total, the Browns got:
#21 Alex Mack, C
#52 David Veikune, LB
#191 Coye Francies, CB
#195 James Davis RB
Brad Ratliff, QB
Kenyon Coleman, DE
Abram Elam, S
Coleman and Elam are likely to be starters for the Browns...but at the very least they will be key rotational players. Mack is also likely to be a starter....and Veikune is expected to challenge for the OLB starting roll.
So, instead of getting ONE starter (Raji or whomever) at #5...the Browns filled 3 to 4 positions.
BUT THAT IS NOT ALL!!!
The thing that nobody is talking about is the fact that the Browns ALSO saved about $40M on the rookie salary to their first round player. And this may actually be the most important component of the trade!!!
That means that the Browns will be in a position to make contract extensions to key FA's next year:
RB Jerome Harrison UFA (likely starter)
FB Lawrence Vickers UFA (starter)
WR Braylon Edwards UFA (starter)
OT Ryan Tucker UFA (starter)
OL Isaac Sowells UFA
LB D'Qwell Jackson UFA (starter)
LB Leon Williams UFA
SS Brodney Pool UFA (starter)
The Browns have 5 starters that will be FA's next year, and 1 that is a likely starter (Harrison will likely play often).
That is a lot of talent the Browns need to lock down going into next year....and that $40M will go a long way to making sure we are able to keep the talent we want to keep.
We will also have a full slate of draft picks in 2010 (and an additional 5th)...in what is shaping up to be a much stronger draft than this years.
So...the Browns actually got at least 3 starters (maybe 4), were able to keep options open for trading a QB (DA) or WR (BE), and saved enough money to keep the 5 starters we stand to lose to FA next year.
I would say...for the price of ONE PICK...
THAT WAS AN AWESOME TRADE(S)!!!
When we traded from #5 overall down to 21 (eventually) the Browns got a lot more than just 3 players and a pick. A LOT MORE!!!
Coleman and Elam are likely to be starters for the Browns...but at the very least they will be key rotational players. Mack is also likely to be a starter....and Veikune is expected to challenge for the OLB starting roll.
So, instead of getting ONE starter (Raji or whomever) at #5...the Browns filled 3 to 4 positions.
BUT THAT IS NOT ALL!!!
The thing that nobody is talking about is the fact that the Browns ALSO saved about $40M on the rookie salary to their first round player. And this may actually be the most important component of the trade!!!
That means that the Browns will be in a position to make contract extensions to key FA's next year:So...the Browns actually got at least 3 starters (maybe 4), were able to keep options open for trading a QB (DA) or WR (BE), and saved enough money to keep the 5 starters we stand to lose to FA next year.
I would say...for the price of ONE PICK...
THAT WAS AN AWESOME TRADE(S)!!!
A few additional points that should be noted:
First of all, I agree - trading down for quantity over quality is EXACTLY what the Browns needed to do.
They were relatively inactive in free agency so they needed bodies in a big way from the draft - it was clear to everyone that Cleveland was probably the team most desperate to trade back. That created a what is essentially a win win trade with the Jets - a fair trade on all sides I'd say...but also left the Browns taking much less in value trading back later for paltry 6th round draft picks.
But beyond that, the only thing we can say for sure about the draft picks is that no one knows how good they'll be.
Whether its a 1st rounder or 7th, no one can say whether these guys are players or busts. Browns fans of all people should understand that a first round pick can be VERY disappointing.
And while some of the vets that have been picked up certainly may start or be in the rotation, one shouldn't get too excited about that. None of these vets were let go because they're pro-bowlers. On their current teams they weren't deemed valuable enough to keep, and certainly not starters. Given the state of the Browns, it may be likely they'll start here - but that's not necessarilly a good thing.
At the end of the day SOMEONE needs to start - they don't have to be good - just better than the alternative on the team.
Of course you pretty much can say the same thing about a lot of teams - and certainly all the rookies. That's part of the benefit to drafting quantity over quality... there's lots of Top 10 picks that have been turds and busts - but draft enough 6th rounders and even undrafted rookies, and you're sure to find a few diamonds in the rough... simple law of averages.
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When we traded from #5 overall down to 21 (eventually) the Browns got a lot more than just 3 players and a pick. A LOT MORE!!!
Coleman and Elam are likely to be starters for the Browns...but at the very least they will be key rotational players. Mack is also likely to be a starter....and Veikune is expected to challenge for the OLB starting roll.
So, instead of getting ONE starter (Raji or whomever) at #5...the Browns filled 3 to 4 positions.
BUT THAT IS NOT ALL!!!
The thing that nobody is talking about is the fact that the Browns ALSO saved about $40M on the rookie salary to their first round player. And this may actually be the most important component of the trade!!!
That means that the Browns will be in a position to make contract extensions to key FA's next year:So...the Browns actually got at least 3 starters (maybe 4), were able to keep options open for trading a QB (DA) or WR (BE), and saved enough money to keep the 5 starters we stand to lose to FA next year.
I would say...for the price of ONE PICK...
THAT WAS AN AWESOME TRADE(S)!!!
A few additional points that should be noted:
First of all, I agree - trading down for quantity over quality is EXACTLY what the Browns needed to do.
They were relatively inactive in free agency so they needed bodies in a big way from the draft - it was clear to everyone that Cleveland was probably the team most desperate to trade back. That created a what is essentially a win win trade with the Jets - a fair trade on all sides I'd say...but also left the Browns taking much less in value trading back later for paltry 6th round draft picks.
But beyond that, the only thing we can say for sure about the draft picks is that no one knows how good they'll be.
Whether its a 1st rounder or 7th, no one can say whether these guys are players or busts. Browns fans of all people should understand that a first round pick can be VERY disappointing.
And while some of the vets that have been picked up certainly may start or be in the rotation, one shouldn't get too excited about that. None of these vets were let go because they're pro-bowlers. On their current teams they weren't deemed valuable enough to keep, and certainly not starters. Given the state of the Browns, it may be likely they'll start here - but that's not necessarilly a good thing.
At the end of the day SOMEONE needs to start - they don't have to be good - just better than the alternative on the team.
Of course you pretty much can say the same thing about a lot of teams - and certainly all the rookies. That's part of the benefit to drafting quantity over quality... there's lots of Top 10 picks that have been turds and busts - but draft enough 6th rounders and even undrafted rookies, and you're sure to find a few diamonds in the rough... simple law of averages.
A few additional points that should be noted:
First of all, I agree - trading down for quantity over quality is EXACTLY what the Browns needed to do.
They were relatively inactive in free agency so they needed bodies in a big way from the draft - it was clear to everyone that Cleveland was probably the team most desperate to trade back. That created a what is essentially a win win trade with the Jets - a fair trade on all sides I'd say...but also left the Browns taking much less in value trading back later for paltry 6th round draft picks.
But beyond that, the only thing we can say for sure about the draft picks is that no one knows how good they'll be.
Whether its a 1st rounder or 7th, no one can say whether these guys are players or busts. Browns fans of all people should understand that a first round pick can be VERY disappointing.
And while some of the vets that have been picked up certainly may start or be in the rotation, one shouldn't get too excited about that. None of these vets were let go because they're pro-bowlers. On their current teams they weren't deemed valuable enough to keep, and certainly not starters. Given the state of the Browns, it may be likely they'll start here - but that's not necessarilly a good thing.
At the end of the day SOMEONE needs to start - they don't have to be good - just better than the alternative on the team.
Of course you pretty much can say the same thing about a lot of teams - and certainly all the rookies. That's part of the benefit to drafting quantity over quality... there's lots of Top 10 picks that have been turds and busts - but draft enough 6th rounders and even undrafted rookies, and you're sure to find a few diamonds in the rough... simple law of averages.
You really break down the obvious for us dumb Browns fans very well Joe, thanks a lot bro.
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A few additional points that should be noted:
First of all, I agree - trading down for quantity over quality is EXACTLY what the Browns needed to do.
They were relatively inactive in free agency so they needed bodies in a big way from the draft - it was clear to everyone that Cleveland was probably the team most desperate to trade back. That created a what is essentially a win win trade with the Jets - a fair trade on all sides I'd say...but also left the Browns taking much less in value trading back later for paltry 6th round draft picks.
But beyond that, the only thing we can say for sure about the draft picks is that no one knows how good they'll be.
Whether its a 1st rounder or 7th, no one can say whether these guys are players or busts. Browns fans of all people should understand that a first round pick can be VERY disappointing.
And while some of the vets that have been picked up certainly may start or be in the rotation, one shouldn't get too excited about that. None of these vets were let go because they're pro-bowlers. On their current teams they weren't deemed valuable enough to keep, and certainly not starters. Given the state of the Browns, it may be likely they'll start here - but that's not necessarilly a good thing.
At the end of the day SOMEONE needs to start - they don't have to be good - just better than the alternative on the team.
Of course you pretty much can say the same thing about a lot of teams - and certainly all the rookies. That's part of the benefit to drafting quantity over quality... there's lots of Top 10 picks that have been turds and busts - but draft enough 6th rounders and even undrafted rookies, and you're sure to find a few diamonds in the rough... simple law of averages.
You really break down the obvious for us dumb Browns fans very well Joe, thanks a lot bro.
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No, Riff's just thanking you for 1) restating the obvious and 2) talking to us like we're football Retarded.
And remember, just because the team we root for is worse than the one you root for doesn't make you any smarter than us.
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No, Riff's just thanking you for 1) restating the obvious and 2) talking to us like we're football Retarded.
And remember, just because the team we root for is worse than the one you root for doesn't make you any smarter than us.
mz. said:
No, Riff's just thanking you for 1) restating the obvious and 2) talking to us like we're football Retarded.And remember, just because the team we root for is worse than the one you root for doesn't make you any smarter than us.
mz the pussy, what you don't understand is Joe is a NE fan and they are like, really good and really smart. Therefore, he knows football better than us podunk midwestern types. Factor in he's probably from the uber intelligent NE area or Boston and we should feel very fortunate to have him explain football to us.
Remember, he has Belichick for a coach and we wouldn't know anything about him. Plus, when your team sucks it is pretty difficult to actually understand football.
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No, Riff's just thanking you for 1) restating the obvious and 2) talking to us like we're football Retarded.
And remember, just because the team we root for is worse than the one you root for doesn't make you any smarter than us.
mz. said:
No, Riff's just thanking you for 1) restating the obvious and 2) talking to us like we're football Retarded.Fair enough - but if anyone thinks that any of the draft picks are guaranteed to be good players, they ARE Retarded. That goes for the Patriots as well as the Browns.
They could ALL be busts for all any of us can say at this point... probably not, but many or even most could be busts - and even though players that would be cut in a second by other teams could be be the best players on the Browns, thats really not a good thing.
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I'm not sure what people refer to exactly when they talk about a #1 or #2 WR, but Hines Ward, while he may not be the classic #1 but a #1 he is. The guy has averaged 80 catches a year since he started ten years ago.
I'm not sure what people refer to exactly when they talk about a #1 or #2 WR, but Hines Ward, while he may not be the classic #1 but a #1 he is. The guy has averaged 80 catches a year since he started ten years ago.
That's the point about Robiskie I was trying to make. He's been the linch pin of that receiving corps for so long I want to throw up in my mouth every time I think about it. Their #1's have come and gone, but there he is still today making every big and little play.
You can go around the league and identify someone like that on every successful passing team, yet all people want to talk about is the #1 receivers around the league. Remember Moss in NE two years ago? The NFL media were creaming all over themselves about this guy, but who was really moving the chains in Foxboro? Wes Welker with about a bajillion catches.
...searching for Nev Chandler..."5,4,3,2,1, Touchdown Browns!!
.jpg.a1a2b9a0c33008fdaf4097d8fe2cfd64.jpg "Riffer X"){kind=avatar}
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