2017 Draft OL Evaluations

Tour2ma

Tis the season so let's light this candle...

I'm starting with the Centers this season, then OGs and then OTs. Why? Basically our OL need is setting the order by where the candidates our top need, Center, are likely to have been playing in 2016.

As usual:

I'll use NFLDraftScouts' rankings to aid in picking the prospects and DraftBreakdown as the primary source for cutdowns.
I'll insert links in this running list of prospects to their individually posted write-up.
If you have a prospect at which you'd like me to look ro a game you think I need to see, then feel free to ask/recommend and I'll try to get to him/it.
Your takes are always welcome.

New this year will be inclusion of my raw, game notes following my player summary.

Centers

Ethan Pocic LSU 6'6 307 (Wis/JcksnSt/Missou/Bama) - http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45684&do=findComment&comment=678741
Pat Elflein OSU 6'2 300 (BGSU/Rutgers/Mich/Clemson) - http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45684&do=findComment&comment=679601
Tyler Orovsky WVU 6'3 292 (Mizzou/BYU/TxTech) - http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45684&do=findComment&comment=679840
Kyle Fuller Baylor 6'4 306
Jon Toth UK 6'5 308 (NMSt/BAMA/FLA/Missou) - http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45684&page=2&do=findComment&comment=680331

OGs

Dan Feeney Ind 6'4 304
Forrest Lamp W.KY 6'4 305 (Bama/LaTech/LaTech/Memphis) - http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45684&page=2&do=findComment&comment=680670
Dorian Johnson Pitt 6'5 300 (PSU/@OSU/VaTech/@Clem) - http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45684&page=2&do=findComment&comment=682583
Dion Dawkins Temple 6'4 317 (@PSU/@Memphis/SFU/UCin) - http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45684&do=findComment&comment=682137
... and more...

OTs

Ryan Ramczyk Wis 6'5 314
Cam Robinson BAMA 6'6 310
Garett Boles Utah 6'5 296
Taylor Moton W.Mich 6'5 330
Will Holden Vandy 6'7 311 (2015 TN) - http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45684&page=2&do=findComment&comment=696331
... and more...

Tour2ma

Ethan Pocic LSU 6'6 307 Wis/JcksnSt/Missou/Bama -

Summary:

Ethan moves, but doesn't move people... a leaner, not a popping driver... rarely see him win a battle, but rarely see him lose one either. He seems best suited for a ZBS team... put another way, he's not a good fit for the Browns.

As for him in the ZBS... he looks (and I hesitate to say this) "Cam-like". He runs around with little anticipation on where his defender will be or will come from and so he ends up reaching a lot and holding some. Amazingly I did not see him called even one time for holding, but he held a few times a game... most subtly (a good thing) but a couple pretty blatant ones.

I saw little evidence of him line-calling. Here I am taking evidence as squatting and pointing side-to-side, and then seeing OGs relaying something to the OTs as we often see the top NFL Centers do (Mack jumps immediately to mind). I did often see Pocic turn to an OG, talk and sometimes point, but that usually indicates a simpler, double-team conversation.

Mayock wondered aloud at the Sr. Bowl whether he might be best suited for RT in the NFL. Ethan's body says "yes", but his agility says "not so fast, Mike."

2016 Game Raw Notes (Warning: they may or may not make sense.):

@Wis Wk 1: ZBS... slo start, little control, not getting angles, decnt discipline; Q2 1st driving block, 1st nice PassPro, seeing back up 1-tech DT, still whiffing at 2nd level, has head on swivle in PassPro, missed 1st A gap blitz, 4Q screen whiff

JkSt Wk 2: more power scheme vs. beefy DTs, anchoring issues early - popping up, no drive but angles, DTs punching & getting hands on, no punch - bear hugging; Q2 starting to extend arms, issues sifting thru traffic, getting popped - not popping, more react than anticipate, goalline got submarined; Q3: In passpro cntact then push off but push offs move him back not the DT, bounced off stubby ILB,

Missou Wk 5: DT powered thru 1st play, got "retreated" on move in roll-out, better anchor on move, missed passpro pull assignment in PAP, starting gain cntrol of DT, beat to left by DT cutting across face, pull left and rev sealed but with entended arm (hold) as overran pursuit, beaten across face again by rushing DT, gathered himself to drive block; Q2: (stopped watching)

Bama Wk 10 after Bye: more of same, Allen ripped him out of a dbl-team to the ground prompting first lol, (cutdown stopped well-short of halftime)

Bottom line:

I can't see Pocic going Day1. Day 2? Probably... If he's a polished line-caller and/or a primarily ZBS team really thinks he also has OT potential, then his 5-position versatility, if not proficiency, ups his value and R2 is possible. Otherwise R3 feels right.

RoyceRolls

I'm interested to see how all the "dime a dozen fat asses" shake out under your scrutiny. While I am a proponent of a strong offensive line, if the browns pick one in the first 2 rounds it'll be time to make a bee line for the bathroom. Getting Bitonio back healthy will be a bigger impact than any draft pick. Also, of all the young talent along the o line, Coleman, Drango, Reiter, etc. someone has to develop into a solid contributor.

Im so tired of the offensive line complainers. Yeah, they didn't play well last year, but this o line dealing with a key injury still was at least middle of the road (16 teams in the league allowed more pressures). I'm just ready to have a top 10 QB/defense.

Tour2ma

I hear you, RR...

There are always a dozen "fat-asses" taken Day 3 and another dozen post-draft all in the hope of finding cheap, functional depth or even the occasional starter. It's the same sifting process as for QBs, but at less cost.

Historically I have found one or two every year going through this exercise that prove out... and another couple that do not. While this year is likely no different, it's not a good sign that I don't see "it" in one of the most highly promoted interior players in this draft which surprised me since I liked what I saw of Pocic Sr. Bowl week.

I'm used to that at OT, where I have started in years past. In fact I think I've dissented on the "top OT" three years running, but not the interior prospects. I often end up liking another interior prospects value better that the top guy, but I usually like the top guy's talent best. It does not look like this will be the case this year.

We shall see...

wargograw

Tour, they don't call holding in the SEC FYI.

wargograw

Can you add a round grade for these guys? You seem pretty critical of Pocic. So where would you take him, if anywhere?

TexasAg1969

@wargograw said:
Tour, they don't call holding in the SEC FYI.

I agree which is why I think Garrett's stats are undervalued. Tons of no calls when horsecollared & necktackled from behind as he went around OTs.

Tour2ma

@wargograw said:
Can you add a round grade for these guys? You seem pretty critical of Pocic. So where would you take him, if anywhere?

Can I? Yes... Would it be worth a shit? Unlikely... but that's never stopped me before.

I can't see Pocic going Day1. Day 2? Probably... If he's a polished line-caller and/or a primarily ZBS team really thinks he also has OT potential, then his 5-position versatility, if not proficiency, ups his value and R2 is possible. Otherwise R3 feels right.

I did not address line-calling in my write-up, but I saw little evidence of it. Here I am taking evidence as squatting and pointing side-to-side, and then seeing OGs relaying something to the OTs as we often see the top NFL Centers do (Mack jumps immediately to mind). I did often see Pocic turn to an OG, talk and sometimes point, but that usually indicates a simpler, double-team conversation.

I'll copy/paste/edit the above into his evaluation post.

Tour2ma

Pat Elflein OSU 6'2 300 BGSU/Rutgers/Mich/Clemson - Distractions: LG #73

Summary:

This was a tough one. Some seasons are cruise ships; some are roller coaster rides, here's a ski slope.

First, let me say that I was very critical in posts of Elflein's prospects based upon his showing in the Nat Champ semi. That take was both justified and not justified meaning he's not as bad as I thought, but he has issues.

Against lesser competition, BGSU and Rutgers, Pat was dominant in every way. More than simply out-muscling or out tech'ing his opposites he showed a control, anticipation and poise that was astounding. He not only maintained position and won battles, but calmly put himself in position to make play after play after play at the 2nd level. He showed discipline in PassPro and aggression in Run Blocking with a little "nasty" in the forms of playing to the echo of the whistle and getting even on the very next snap every time his opposite did something untoward.

Speaking of snaps... they were crisp and on target game after game. Out of 100+ viewed I saw one that was weak and low. Also noted few uncalled holds. Pat's only penalty was for double-clutching a snap in the Nat Champ semi.

Then the competition level rose.

Against UM Pat started great. Mich had better athletes, or at least stronger ones, but early he handled them well. Then UM turned up the heat; they got much more aggressive on D, and maybe more importantly they relentlessly starting rotating their DL, turning the tide of the game and his evaluation. Still I never got the feeling he was outclassed by UM. They did not have the speed to match their power to outclass him.But they did wear him down.

The increased Defensive pressure starting cracking Pat's judgement, overrunning assignments, etc., but it was fatigue that sent his tech south. By game's end he was dipping his head and waist bending. Even his stance changed. Against BGSU I praised his flat spine angle over the ball without a hint of change be the call run or pass. Late first half I noted he was now angling up more for pass calls than run calls, i.e., he was tipping plays. His play picked up after halftime rest, but it was clear that by game's end he was gassed. I even found myself wondering if Urban would have been wise to rotate Pat out for a series, or at least a few plays, here and there. Not something you normally think about with OL, but it looked to be worth considering.

Against Clemson... well they had the speed to match their power... and they rotated DL early and often. From the start it was clear that Pat was trying to move faster even when assigned players who weren't truly fast, like Boulware, and the precision of his play suffered for it. However, Elf's real breakdown began in 2Q with the emergence of the "gator arms" I saw when I watched the game live. Then fatigue set in sometime in 3Q until finally the 4Q INT seemed to break his spirit.

2016 Game Raw Notes -

BGSU Wk 1: decisive fire-outs with quickness off ball, flows well in ZBS, always hits someone, good anticipation to 2nd level flow, doesn't "rush" to 2nd level... controlled movement is extending/using arms, anchors, not being challenged by D... time to move on??? 1st miss, nice drive in short sit, 2nd pull in passpro and 1st sign of miss (chip DL diverted from delayed blitzer), nice discipline halted DL chase to p/u MLB blitz (TD pass), 1st budge by looping DE; Q2 - 1st run stuff by MLB, roughed up DB thru echo of whistle nice, 1st chip & release to L2 very nicely done, FAST ACCURRAte snaps from great posture stance, no R/P tipping, 1st run pull looked "rushed" stumbled and fell, really solid passpro tech knee bend sitting, sifted thru OL traffic to get block 10 yds downfield, ... moving on for real this time...

Rutgers Wk 5 (off Bye): clear from play 1 better comp level - stalemate, nice dbl-team drive, chip&quick to L2 w/ anticipation, too high in run block beaten, pull and 1st uncertain dance missing block, big driving run block on NT levered up and push little punch, nice passpro chop steps, passpro discipline waiting for looping DE, GREAT chip left - 2nd level seal right BIG HOLE, quick cutoff of 2nd level flow to sweep; Q2 - head on swivel passpro, met 2d level LB with 1st real punch, good passpor rxn to NT spin, one of few clear line call sits, mid-2nd starting to tire?, good feel for angle vs DT, quick cut-off of NT flow to sweep left, high passpro lost anchor to DT putting hands high under chin---next play BIG dbl-punch payback!, blitz whiff; 2nd HALF: man this is a good unit! SMOOTHLY p/u'd inside game in quick set passpro... may have to look at RG Billy Price #54 --- time to move on.

Mich Wk 13: pull and great judgement to bypass DLs coming free to turn upfield and reverse seal 2nd lvl, run drove DT off line and sealed 399 Godin, handled #73 Hurst, quick hit on gap shot to left, overran seal on misdirection run, almost rolled up, semi-controlled ZBS, overran blitzing CB on pull left;

Q2 - bad angle to 2nd lvl (Mich aggression increasing), pull left passpro over commit to outside, dipped head in attempted dbl-team got chucked, repeat pull-left passpro caution to repeat over-commit left edge vulnerable beat by Taco sack, fell off dbl, 3rd&short stymie, missed Hurst quick step across face, anchor, chip & 2nd, pull rt passpro neut'd soft Taco, ditto prev play, hit gap shot on own 2, **higher snap posture than vs. BGSU** tipping pass???, whiff quick blitz LB to left gap, p/u blitz delay stunt same LB to left, pull left (seem slower) but buried forcing CB, solo buried sub-DT after intial dbl, taco trouble but neut'd, nice anchor vs. another sub, patient read of LB on read-opt rxn, soft tech let DT fall on face on passpro - good "feel", good passpro prep to rec DT loop, got high block when sub'd in GL dive, stoned looping Glasgow, good ride of passpro gap shot to rt., poorer rxn to shot to left gap -- sack, nice lead on QB draw no block but drew DB's attn, drving dbl, sub'd in another short-yardage sit, jogged behid assign on sweep right FATIGUE?, lean dip head small DE ran around attempted QB draw block, slipped off run block, head dip in passpro

LATE 4Q DEF TIRED!, DEF CHANGING STANCE POSTURE RUN?PASS NOW, blown up again in shrt-yd sit, fighting but reaching in passpro, jogging escort of QB bail up middle, giving ground in passpro; OT: no rxn to delayed blitz right by him, high but drive on 4th&1, pull left on winning TD no blk but stayed available to lead way... did not waste block did not stop.

Clemson FBS Semi: too quick to 2nd whiff Boulware, driving chip & 2nd, head swivel passpro, pull rt found DB, good hand fight w/frosh DT, nice slding ZBS run option passpro, overran Boulware again, pull rt & near whiff on shooting DE, head dip waist bend passpro but recov'd, lock and turn DT at POA, fighting anchor, pull rt and semi-whiff, pull rt and odd angle on swing pass rt, **A LOT OF CLEM SUBBING**, no rxn to obvious A gap DB blitz to rt???;
Q2: PEN-dbl clutched snap, disp passpro position, low weak snap, **going gator armed**, blown back receiving Watson charge in passpro, latch and pancake DT in passpro, semi-neut Watkins batted pass, drive turn Wat run block, , , , ran thru 2nd level without hitting anyone, , , ,
Q4: pull rt nice kickout, , gator seal, DT game blown up and ripped by Wat - Sack, next play gutted #54 then helped stop INT return with good angle, starting to be handled by lesser DTs, buckled, dipped ripped and whiffed, ** tired or emotionally down???** looks "sapped"** time to stop...

Bottom Line:

Pat has the potential to be the power run-game Center we need with enough mobility for the occasional ZBS call and second level work. At his best he reminded me of Alex. At his worst? The better one of the two, non-Greco, forgettable subs, that tried to fill Alex's shoes in 2014.

While I like Pat's odds of increasing his stamina. I have a little more concern about his adaptation to NFL-level speed. I am interested in his measurements and drills at the Combine... especially his agility drills.

The early Pat Elflein was a clear, Day 1, worthy pick. The late Pat? Day 2... Where would I consider taking him? Not at #33... more like our 2nd R2 pick and certainly by our #65 pick. Again this is pending how he looks at the Combine and how the rest of the Center and OL classes look.

But with a name like ELF-lein, he just may be our destiny.

Tour2ma

This one is going to be a lot shorter...

Tyler Orovsky WVU 6'3 292 (Missou/BYU/TxTech) - not a great mix; Diversions: Shell (dances like Bell); White WR hands & tough

Summary: Toughest evaluation yet due to WVU's offensive "style" and competition level against three schools that apparently don't bother to recruit DL. I went in liking Tyler as a sleeper, so I guess I should not have been surprised when his tape nearly put me to sleep.

Here are the basics:

snaps - they are slow, they are lobs between the legs with the look of the side-saddle ones we made as kids in out pickup, touch games. Worse yet they are in rhythm... look between legs... raise head... snap ball. Both can be corrected and they will have to be or his entire OL will start a step behind a NFL DL.
line calls - I did not note a single one.
burst - thin I saw signs of it... twice.
speed - no...
agility - never moved fast enough to judge it.

Aside from snap issues there just was little to judge him upon. WVU's O features quick, boundary passes and inside ZBS runs. That's the main course. Worse yet Tyler rarely does anything alone; it's just dbl-team after dbl-team in run and PassPro. Additionally he did not see a 0-tech NT until the TxTech game and then more often than not the NT lined up nearly 2-yd off the ball. Holy shades of the Landry "flex".

Never saw him really "pop" anyone, but he did throw more cut blocks than either Pocic or Elf. First two games they were at DL's feet (?), but in 3rd he raised the target to their thigh... more effective. Despite the cuts I saw no nasty.

Also never saw him pull laterally or go more than 2 yds downfield except once when he jogged out to lead a screen right, jogged downfield ten yards and got in the way of a DB.

So is there any there there? Maybe... There was a glimpse of power in one goalline situation when he was tip of the spear on a sneak for a TD (called back for illegal formation). There was also one dime look where the DT lined up at RDE and looped head-on into Tyler with a reasonable amount of speed and Tyler barely budged. Two glimpses does not a resume make...

His 2015 opposition does not look like it will be any more revealing. Hopefully at least one more 2016 game gets cutdown. WVU played Oklahoma later and faced The "U" in their bowl game.

2016 Games:
Missou Wk 1: snaps lack veloc, good posture, timeable, workmanlike, good solid midfield work but being tested at GL,starting to be juked more by DL; Q2: few ind assignments w/ no 2nd level to judge and lazy DTs so not learning much... move on.

BYU Wk 4 (after Bye): same slow timeable snaps but looks a little quicker off ball, nnice drive block in GL, decent passpro tech, scrn rt looked slo, NT held off w/ one arm, **so many quick wide passes**, slo rxn to LB gap shot, small radius; Q3: zzzzz...

TxTech Wk 7 (after 2nd Bye): more NT on nose, stuffed DT gaming in from out, quicker to Nt offline, seeing 0-tech NT 2 yds off LOS, **If this was a fight, they'd stop it... WVU is running at will**, Skipping ahead... nothing to eval... short wide throws and inside ZBS.

Bottom Line: Right now Tyler is a Day 3 prospect. Day 3 is Rounds 4 thru 7. In which one should he be considered? As of now in Tyler's case, I think that's more a question of position demand. More tape, which real scouts surely have, should hopefully allow them a better basis for projecting Tyler at the next level.

tiamat63

I'm not sure about anyone else put I've put good stock in reading these evals.

Surprised at the Pocic thoughts considering how highly mentioned he was on this board it seems in mock draft.

Not surprised with the eval on Elflein.

Tour2ma

Thanks, tia...

Was just comparing my notes on Pocic and Olov vs. Missou. Can't swear they faced the same DLmen, but if they did, then that is a point in favor of Olov as he fared better. Not sure what that adds to/ takes away from the case for either, but it's what the notes say.

Flugel

Great write ups Tour! Thanks for all the time you put into those for us. I got a kick out of your sleeper comment regarding Orovsky.

I didn't get many chances to see Pocic so I really enjoyed your eval of him. Looking at his height, a lot of your observations aren't surprising like being a leaner. I'm guessing that also makes him prone to overextending with his feet too close together. While I don't like stereotyping guys, I have a feeling he'd struggle to consistently bend well enough to win a lot of leverage wars against the more compact 340 lb powerhouses that will line up over him/offset.

I think you recently told someone else that the path to finding our next Center could come out of the pool of OGs or OTs. That's a good point considering there's no guarantee Elflein will be on our doorstep.

Tour2ma

Thanks, Flugs..

Not sure I need to be, but to be sure I am clear (or clearer), I did not mean that Pocic is a "leaner" in the sense of a waist bender. Better word may be the he lays on opponents, almost envelops them... or maybe "leans into" as opposed to "delivers blows".

I did not note a particular problem with his feet being too close, but may have missed it. I do know that he got caught up/ tripped up more in the phone booth than either Elf or Orv with Elf the one that managed to stay amazingly "clean" through the footage I watched.

BrownB499

Love reading these Tour!

I'd be interested in see your assessment of Toth....I thought his game vs, Bama was solid...Where as Pocics was meh

wargograw

@tour2ma said:

Thanks, Flugs..

Not sure I need to be, but to be sure I am clear (or clearer), I did not mean that Pocic is a "leaner" in the sense of a waist bender. Better word may be the he lays on opponents, almost envelops them... or maybe "leans into" as opposed to "delivers blows".

I did not note a particular problem with his feet being too close, but may have missed it. I do know that he got caught up/ tripped up more in the phone booth than either Elf or Orv with Elf the one that managed to stay amazingly "clean" through the footage I watched.

Your meaning is what I gleaned from "leaner" originally, FYI.

As to your second graf, may be a matter of splits?

Tour2ma

Very possibly... splits, stance-width and even scheme... I tend to think the ZBS's choreography sets up OL (and DL) for more tripping.

@brownb499 said:
Love reading these Tour! I'd be interested in see your assessment of Toth....I thought his game vs, Bama was solid...Where as Pocics was meh

Coming up... With Orov disappointing, my sleeper hopes have turned to Toth as well. I fear that if he disappoints, then I'm really going to have to beat the bushes for one.

wargograw

He's only a RS sophomore in 2017 Tour, but keep your eye on the C at A&M. Was only a 2 star prospect but was really really solid last year. Game seemed to come easily for him. Not as smooth against some of the elites of course but he also didn't embarrass himself or anything. This year he should be pretty top notch. New OC last year came in and said his jaw dropped when he found out the kid was a freshman (after coach being here awhile already) because he knew the game so well and was so mature.

Flugel

@tour2ma said:

Thanks, Flugs..

Not sure I need to be, but to be sure I am clear (or clearer), I did not mean that Pocic is a "leaner" in the sense of a waist bender. Better word may be the he lays on opponents, almost envelops them... or maybe "leans into" as opposed to "delivers blows".

I did not note a particular problem with his feet being too close, but may have missed it. I do know that he got caught up/ tripped up more in the phone booth than either Elf or Orv with Elf the one that managed to stay amazingly "clean" through the footage I watched.

You explained it well. I just wondered if something else might have been relevant so I appreciate your answer.

Sometimes guys with sloppy fundamentals tend to bring their feet closer together, which changes their base from a 2 prong support to a 1 prong support. This makes them way easier to shed. I think the bad habit takes place and gets perfected on a 5 man sled in daily practices where sometimes the bigger framed guys with longer legs bring their feet closer together while they lean on the pads hoping to turn it on the guys at the other end. Okie drills can break that habit real fast though.

It's interesting to see what habits unfold in the trenches when guys started getting fatigued like pad heights and some of the fundamentals you alluded to in your evaluations.

Tour2ma

Yeah... that actually surprised me when I saw Elf gassed to the degree he was. A 3-year starter who barely missed a snap? Getting that gassed?