Dan Rooney
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The old man was the face of the franchise, but it was Dan who's largely responsible for building the Dynasty. By the way he didn't just vote against Modell's move, he also was instrumental in making sure football returned to Cleveland (including getting Haslam who back then held a small stake in the Steelers). Some highlights:
--Dan hired Chuck Noll when others wanted Paterno.
--He didn't just start the Rooney Rule, he was also the first to hire a black man, Bill Nunn, as director of scouting.
--Responsible for "suggesting" the team take Roethlisberger when Bill "No Clue About QBs" Cowher was pushing for some OL.
--Instilled the philosophy of sticking with head coaches for the long run. Your own team may want to look into that.
--Didn't even let being ambassador to Ireland stop him from contributing.
Art Rooney was a beloved old man who hired his buddies and kept the Steelers at the bottom. Dan changed the culture entirely. I don't think many owners can be called great but Rooney actually was.
Here's an excerpt from a feel-good ESPN article that touches on what the Gipster is saying (bolded):
"Former Cleveland Browns media relations staffer Amy Palcic -- now the director of communications for the Houston Texans -- spent a week in Pittsburgh in January 2009. Palcic was helping out the week before the AFC Championship Game, a typical league practice.
The Steelers gave her an out-of-the-way office, and at the end of her first day, Rooney walked by her open door and noticed it was someone he didn't know.
He walked in, introduced himself as Dan. When she explained why she was there, he asked if there was any way he could help. She said no and thanked him.
Every day for the rest of the week, Rooney stuck his head inside the door and asked how she was doing and if he could help in any way.
Rooney knew no pretensions.
I happened to be at a Steelers training camp after word broke that Jimmy Haslam, then a minority owner of the Steelers, would be buying the Browns. The Steelers understandably preferred not to be involved in the Browns' business and said little publicly.
I was working in an area set aside for the media when Rooney strolled through. I asked about Haslam, and he gave a kind and upbeat statement, and then started to leave.
As he did, I asked about his other job as ambassador to Ireland, at a time when the nation of his heritage was going through economic issues.
He stopped and his eyes lit up, happy to talk about a turnaround he saw coming.
Rooney never took himself so seriously that he couldn't offer a down-to-earth word with someone he hardly knew. He also understood the Cleveland-Pittsburgh connection between two Rust Belt cities devoted to their teams. He hated the idea of owner Art Modell's move to Baltimore and was one of two NFL owners to vote against the Browns' move and transformation into the Ravens.
When the Browns returned to Cleveland as a new franchise, Rooney happily joined with then-Browns president and CEO Carmen Policy for the Grudge Lunches that took place in Cleveland and Pittsburgh to honor the renewal of the teams' rivalry."
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The old man was the face of the franchise, but it was Dan who's largely responsible for building the Dynasty. By the way he didn't just vote against Modell's move, he also was instrumental in making sure football returned to Cleveland (including getting Haslam who back then held a small stake in the Steelers). Some highlights:
--Dan hired Chuck Noll when others wanted Paterno.
--He didn't just start the Rooney Rule, he was also the first to hire a black man, Bill Nunn, as director of scouting.
--Responsible for "suggesting" the team take Roethlisberger when Bill "No Clue About QBs" Cowher was pushing for some OL.
--Instilled the philosophy of sticking with head coaches for the long run. Your own team may want to look into that.
--Didn't even let being ambassador to Ireland stop him from contributing.
Art Rooney was a beloved old man who hired his buddies and kept the Steelers at the bottom. Dan changed the culture entirely. I don't think many owners can be called great but Rooney actually was.
Here's an excerpt from a feel-good ESPN article that touches on what the Gipster is saying (bolded):
"Former Cleveland Browns media relations staffer Amy Palcic -- now the director of communications for the Houston Texans -- spent a week in Pittsburgh in January 2009. Palcic was helping out the week before the AFC Championship Game, a typical league practice.
The Steelers gave her an out-of-the-way office, and at the end of her first day, Rooney walked by her open door and noticed it was someone he didn't know.
He walked in, introduced himself as Dan. When she explained why she was there, he asked if there was any way he could help. She said no and thanked him.
Every day for the rest of the week, Rooney stuck his head inside the door and asked how she was doing and if he could help in any way.
Rooney knew no pretensions.
I happened to be at a Steelers training camp after word broke that Jimmy Haslam, then a minority owner of the Steelers, would be buying the Browns. The Steelers understandably preferred not to be involved in the Browns' business and said little publicly.
I was working in an area set aside for the media when Rooney strolled through. I asked about Haslam, and he gave a kind and upbeat statement, and then started to leave.
As he did, I asked about his other job as ambassador to Ireland, at a time when the nation of his heritage was going through economic issues.
He stopped and his eyes lit up, happy to talk about a turnaround he saw coming.
Rooney never took himself so seriously that he couldn't offer a down-to-earth word with someone he hardly knew. He also understood the Cleveland-Pittsburgh connection between two Rust Belt cities devoted to their teams. He hated the idea of owner Art Modell's move to Baltimore and was one of two NFL owners to vote against the Browns' move and transformation into the Ravens.
When the Browns returned to Cleveland as a new franchise, Rooney happily joined with then-Browns president and CEO Carmen Policy for the Grudge Lunches that took place in Cleveland and Pittsburgh to honor the renewal of the teams' rivalry."
The old man was the face of the franchise, but it was Dan who's largely responsible for building the Dynasty. By the way he didn't just vote against Modell's move, he also was instrumental in making sure football returned to Cleveland (including getting Haslam who back then held a small stake in the Steelers). Some highlights:
--Dan hired Chuck Noll when others wanted Paterno.
--He didn't just start the Rooney Rule, he was also the first to hire a black man, Bill Nunn, as director of scouting.
--Responsible for "suggesting" the team take Roethlisberger when Bill "No Clue About QBs" Cowher was pushing for some OL.
--Instilled the philosophy of sticking with head coaches for the long run. Your own team may want to look into that.
--Didn't even let being ambassador to Ireland stop him from contributing.
Art Rooney was a beloved old man who hired his buddies and kept the Steelers at the bottom. Dan changed the culture entirely. I don't think many owners can be called great but Rooney actually was.
Here's an excerpt from a feel-good ESPN article that touches on what the Gipster is saying (bolded):
"Former Cleveland Browns media relations staffer Amy Palcic -- now the director of communications for the Houston Texans -- spent a week in Pittsburgh in January 2009. Palcic was helping out the week before the AFC Championship Game, a typical league practice.
The Steelers gave her an out-of-the-way office, and at the end of her first day, Rooney walked by her open door and noticed it was someone he didn't know.
He walked in, introduced himself as Dan. When she explained why she was there, he asked if there was any way he could help. She said no and thanked him.
Every day for the rest of the week, Rooney stuck his head inside the door and asked how she was doing and if he could help in any way.
Rooney knew no pretensions.
I happened to be at a Steelers training camp after word broke that Jimmy Haslam, then a minority owner of the Steelers, would be buying the Browns. The Steelers understandably preferred not to be involved in the Browns' business and said little publicly.
I was working in an area set aside for the media when Rooney strolled through. I asked about Haslam, and he gave a kind and upbeat statement, and then started to leave.
As he did, I asked about his other job as ambassador to Ireland, at a time when the nation of his heritage was going through economic issues.
He stopped and his eyes lit up, happy to talk about a turnaround he saw coming.
Rooney never took himself so seriously that he couldn't offer a down-to-earth word with someone he hardly knew. He also understood the Cleveland-Pittsburgh connection between two Rust Belt cities devoted to their teams. He hated the idea of owner Art Modell's move to Baltimore and was one of two NFL owners to vote against the Browns' move and transformation into the Ravens.
When the Browns returned to Cleveland as a new franchise, Rooney happily joined with then-Browns president and CEO Carmen Policy for the Grudge Lunches that took place in Cleveland and Pittsburgh to honor the renewal of the teams' rivalry."
Great post!
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Who was the other owner to vote against?
The late Ralph Wilson, owner of the Bills.
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Best Dan Rooney story I heard was that in the 50s they had a coach whose main qualification was that he was a card playing buddy of Art Rooney. They had a skinny quarterback in camp who never got to play even a single down in an exhibition game. The coach cut him, over the extreme protests of Art's son Dan, who had started as the team waterboy and worked his way up. The QB got another shot the next year with the Colts. It was Johnny Unitas. After he realized the stupidity of that decision (as well as having Jack Kemp, Len Dawson, and Earl Morrall without winning much), old man Rooney gave his son more say in the running of the team. When he later had authority to hire a coach he hired little known Chuck Noll, who had experienced winning under Paul Brown and Don Shula. It got much better after Noll was allowed to get rid of old players and build a team through the draft.
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Surprised that I had not seen a thread on this before. I assume you all heard that Dan Rooney, owner of the Pittsburgh Steelers died on Thursday I believe.
While Rooney was the owner of the Browns biggest rival, he was a great football man....and a friend of Cleveland.
He and Ralph Wilson were the two owners that voted against Art Modell's "move".
I understand that Rooney felt that he and Modell's situation were not much different at all. Both owned teams in "midsize" industrial cities. Both had a family owned team. I believe that Dan felt that it was only Art's incompetence that was the difference between the two operations. Rooney felt that Modell was destroying a great rivalry.
From what I understand (heard this from Tony Grossi) after the "move" and Rooney's vote against it, Dan Rooney and Art Modell never talked after that.
So, RIP to a great rival and a great man.
(Question: now who becomes the "primary owner" of the Steelers? There is Art Rooney II, who I believe may be Dan's son or nephew)
https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/04/13/dan-rooney-steelers-chairman-dead
Surprised that I had not seen a thread on this before. I assume you all heard that Dan Rooney, owner of the Pittsburgh Steelers died on Thursday I believe.
While Rooney was the owner of the Browns biggest rival, he was a great football man....and a friend of Cleveland.
He and Ralph Wilson were the two owners that voted against Art Modell's "move".
I understand that Rooney felt that he and Modell's situation were not much different at all. Both owned teams in "midsize" industrial cities. Both had a family owned team. I believe that Dan felt that it was only Art's incompetence that was the difference between the two operations. Rooney felt that Modell was destroying a great rivalry.
From what I understand (heard this from Tony Grossi) after the "move" and Rooney's vote against it, Dan Rooney and Art Modell never talked after that.
So, RIP to a great rival and a great man.
(Question: now who becomes the "primary owner" of the Steelers? There is Art Rooney II, who I believe may be Dan's son or nephew)
https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/04/13/dan-rooney-steelers-chairman-dead
Art II is his son and he's been running the show pretty much for a while now. The last super bowl win they handed the trophy to Dan and he immediately handed it to his son. He definitely takes over as primary.
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Surprised that I had not seen a thread on this before. I assume you all heard that Dan Rooney, owner of the Pittsburgh Steelers died on Thursday I believe.
While Rooney was the owner of the Browns biggest rival, he was a great football man....and a friend of Cleveland.
He and Ralph Wilson were the two owners that voted against Art Modell's "move".
I understand that Rooney felt that he and Modell's situation were not much different at all. Both owned teams in "midsize" industrial cities. Both had a family owned team. I believe that Dan felt that it was only Art's incompetence that was the difference between the two operations. Rooney felt that Modell was destroying a great rivalry.
From what I understand (heard this from Tony Grossi) after the "move" and Rooney's vote against it, Dan Rooney and Art Modell never talked after that.
So, RIP to a great rival and a great man.
(Question: now who becomes the "primary owner" of the Steelers? There is Art Rooney II, who I believe may be Dan's son or nephew)
https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/04/13/dan-rooney-steelers-chairman-dead
Art II is his son and he's been running the show pretty much for a while now. The last super bowl win they handed the trophy to Dan and he immediately handed it to his son. He definitely takes over as primary.
Art II is his son and he's been running the show pretty much for a while now. The last super bowl win they handed the trophy to Dan and he immediately handed it to his son. He definitely takes over as primary.
OK, then. He would be the grandson of old Art Rooney then, right?
Are there still minority owners associated with the team? Haslam was once a minority owner, did the Rooneys buy his share back from him, or did those go to a third person?
A lot of people don't recall it now, but the fact is that Art Modell, during his tenure as owner of the Browns was actually only a 51 or 52% owner. A guy named Robert Griese actually owned 43%..and Al Lerner owned 5 or 6%. What is the Rooney's ownership percent? I know some of the brothers had to divest their interests because of ownership of horsetracks/racinos in Florida. That, I believe was when Haslam came in.
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Art II is his son and he's been running the show pretty much for a while now. The last super bowl win they handed the trophy to Dan and he immediately handed it to his son. He definitely takes over as primary.
OK, then. He would be the grandson of old Art Rooney then, right?
Are there still minority owners associated with the team? Haslam was once a minority owner, did the Rooneys buy his share back from him, or did those go to a third person?
A lot of people don't recall it now, but the fact is that Art Modell, during his tenure as owner of the Browns was actually only a 51 or 52% owner. A guy named Robert Griese actually owned 43%..and Al Lerner owned 5 or 6%. What is the Rooney's ownership percent? I know some of the brothers had to divest their interests because of ownership of horsetracks/racinos in Florida. That, I believe was when Haslam came in.
OK, then. He would be the grandson of old Art Rooney then, right?
Are there still minority owners associated with the team? Haslam was once a minority owner, did the Rooneys buy his share back from him, or did those go to a third person?
A lot of people don't recall it now, but the fact is that Art Modell, during his tenure as owner of the Browns was actually only a 51 or 52% owner. A guy named Robert Griese actually owned 43%..and Al Lerner owned 5 or 6%. What is the Rooney's ownership percent? I know some of the brothers had to divest their interests because of ownership of horsetracks/racinos in Florida. That, I believe was when Haslam came in.
Yep, grandson and I'm honestly not sure how the breakdown exists currently. Art is def majority owner.
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Art II is his son and he's been running the show pretty much for a while now. The last super bowl win they handed the trophy to Dan and he immediately handed it to his son. He definitely takes over as primary.
OK, then. He would be the grandson of old Art Rooney then, right?
Are there still minority owners associated with the team? Haslam was once a minority owner, did the Rooneys buy his share back from him, or did those go to a third person?
A lot of people don't recall it now, but the fact is that Art Modell, during his tenure as owner of the Browns was actually only a 51 or 52% owner. A guy named Robert Griese actually owned 43%..and Al Lerner owned 5 or 6%. What is the Rooney's ownership percent? I know some of the brothers had to divest their interests because of ownership of horsetracks/racinos in Florida. That, I believe was when Haslam came in.
Browns ownership, 1961OK, then. He would be the grandson of old Art Rooney then, right?
Are there still minority owners associated with the team? Haslam was once a minority owner, did the Rooneys buy his share back from him, or did those go to a third person?
A lot of people don't recall it now, but the fact is that Art Modell, during his tenure as owner of the Browns was actually only a 51 or 52% owner. A guy named Robert Griese actually owned 43%..and Al Lerner owned 5 or 6%. What is the Rooney's ownership percent? I know some of the brothers had to divest their interests because of ownership of horsetracks/racinos in Florida. That, I believe was when Haslam came in.
National Insurance Co. 30%
Bob Gries 20% <--- and future partner of Modell
Homer Marshman 14%
Jones Ryan 12%
Ellis Ryan 12%
Paul Brown 12%
Enter Modell, Fred "Curly" Morrison, a former Browns running back who worked as an advertising executive for CBS television, learned in 1960 that Dave Jones was looking to sell the Browns and told the story to Art Modell, a 35-year-old advertising and television executive from Brooklyn.
Modell was intrigued, partly because of the potentially lucrative television rights that one of the NFL's most successful franchises could bring as football began to challenge baseball as America's biggest sport. Having borrowed as much money as he could, Modell completed the purchase in March 1961 for $3.925 million. Bob Gries, who had a share in the Browns from the beginning, agreed to buy in again at the new valuation and take a stake of almost 40%, defraying Modell's costs substantially, he only put in $250,000 of his own money having borrowed the rest.
Not exactly the Rooney story at all.
GO BUCKEYES, BROWNS, INDIANS, CAVS, YSU, NAVY and yes I like ND! -
Art Modell is still laughing his ass off at Cleveland.
Pretty wicked laugh, since all that happened shortly after he left here was get kicked out of the league for financial incompetence and was forced to sell his team.
Born Aug. 16, 1960, to actress Patricia Breslin, he and his brother, John, were adopted by Cleveland Browns owner Art Modell after he married their mother in 1969. -
Never heard much about brother John. Not sure if he was involved with the Browns.
Modell is survived by his wife, Michel, and six children. -
David had 6 kids. Not sure if all were grown or not.
Maybe the grandkids got enough to get them through college.
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@ghoolie said:
THIS, is the post of an idiot. How can you detest millions of people who you don't even know?
I coach a mentally handicapped kid in bowling (188 average), he is a devout Steeler fan. Do you detest him? Stinkhole comes in here and posts decent stuff, do you detest him? Do you even know him?
Browns fans are largely working class, blue collar fans. Steeler fans are largely working class, blue collar fans. Dago's, Hunkies, Blacks, you name it......two melting pot communities. The truth of the matter is, when a Browns fan looks at a Steeler fan, he looks into the mirror. And vice versa.
For 20 years of my life I made a living by placing water purification technology into the industries, institutions and medical facilities in W PA, and NE Ohio, among other places. People in the Pittsburgh area are as nice and decent as they are in Cleveland. Great family strength, music, food, culture, AND football. The real problem Browns fans have with Steeler fans, over and above "hating them on football days" is that Steeler fans own all the bragging rights.
In the modern era of football, the Pittsburgh Steelers are the undisputed best team. 6 Superbowls in 8 attempts makes them the king. There is no disputing this. Given that the Browns just went 1 - 19 and are set up to have the same kind of performance in 2017, given that they have never even appeared in a modern day NFL championship (1964, and leather helmet shit is not valid), I can understand the anger, and envy. But dude, in every measurable manner of fan satisfaction, the Steelers are far superior to the Browns.
Who you SHOULD hate, is the city of Cleveland and the assholes who run the team. THOSE are the enemies of Cleveland Browns football.
Art Modell is still laughing his ass off at Cleveland.
Fuck you, fuck the little Retarded bowler, fuck Pittsburgh ... Stand for something, you piece of shit.
Zombo
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@ghoolie said:
He won the SB. Cleveland treated him like scum. Cleveland wanted rid of him since the day he righteously fired Paul Browns. Cleveland got what it wanted. It took getting the fuck out of Cleveland for Modell to win a superbowl, so, yeah, he gets the last laugh.
Steven Biscotti won the Super Bowl. Modell was just an El Cid figure. Propped up on a horse after he was already dead.
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@ghoolie said:
THIS, is the post of an idiot. How can you detest millions of people who you don't even know?
I coach a mentally handicapped kid in bowling (188 average), he is a devout Steeler fan. Do you detest him? Stinkhole comes in here and posts decent stuff, do you detest him? Do you even know him?
Browns fans are largely working class, blue collar fans. Steeler fans are largely working class, blue collar fans. Dago's, Hunkies, Blacks, you name it......two melting pot communities. The truth of the matter is, when a Browns fan looks at a Steeler fan, he looks into the mirror. And vice versa.
For 20 years of my life I made a living by placing water purification technology into the industries, institutions and medical facilities in W PA, and NE Ohio, among other places. People in the Pittsburgh area are as nice and decent as they are in Cleveland. Great family strength, music, food, culture, AND football. The real problem Browns fans have with Steeler fans, over and above "hating them on football days" is that Steeler fans own all the bragging rights.
In the modern era of football, the Pittsburgh Steelers are the undisputed best team. 6 Superbowls in 8 attempts makes them the king. There is no disputing this. Given that the Browns just went 1 - 19 and are set up to have the same kind of performance in 2017, given that they have never even appeared in a modern day NFL championship (1964, and leather helmet shit is not valid), I can understand the anger, and envy. But dude, in every measurable manner of fan satisfaction, the Steelers are far superior to the Browns.
Who you SHOULD hate, is the city of Cleveland and the assholes who run the team. THOSE are the enemies of Cleveland Browns football.
Art Modell is still laughing his ass off at Cleveland.
Fuck you, fuck the little Retarded bowler, fuck Pittsburgh ... Stand for something, you piece of shit.
Zombo
Zombo said:
Fuck you, fuck the little Retard bowler, fuck Pittsburgh ... Stand for something, you piece of shit.
Zombo
How did Retard not get substituted here.
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@stinkhole said:
A bit of history.
A letter from The Chief to his sons ...
Dude, nobody gives a shit.
So many places where you can suck dead Rooney dick.
This is not one of them.
Zombo
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@stinkhole said:
A bit of history.
A letter from The Chief to his sons ...
Dude, nobody gives a shit.
So many places where you can suck dead Rooney dick.
This is not one of them.
Zombo
Zombo said:
Dude, nobody gives a shit.
So many places where you can suck dead Rooney dick.
This is not one of them.
Zombo
I would not be that harsh about it. From an historical perspective it is somewhat interesting to me.
The Steelers team and fans can go suck a dick, but this bit about the business of the league's ownerships is somewhat intriguing.
Let me ask this: Is Jimmy Haslam now the 100% owner of the Browns? Or are there still "minority" interests?
If I recall correctly, didn't the Lerner family still keep a small percentage of the team even though they sold the majority to Haslam?
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Zombo said:
Dude, nobody gives a shit.
So many places where you can suck dead Rooney dick.
This is not one of them.
Zombo
I would not be that harsh about it. From an historical perspective it is somewhat interesting to me.
The Steelers team and fans can go suck a dick, but this bit about the business of the league's ownerships is somewhat intriguing.
Let me ask this: Is Jimmy Haslam now the 100% owner of the Browns? Or are there still "minority" interests?
If I recall correctly, didn't the Lerner family still keep a small percentage of the team even though they sold the majority to Haslam?
I would not be that harsh about it. From an historical perspective it is somewhat interesting to me.
The Steelers team and fans can go suck a dick, but this bit about the business of the league's ownerships is somewhat intriguing.
What do you need to know? It is a family run business.
A family that introduced hardcore steriod use to the NFL.
A family that allowed players to abuse their bodies so much that many of them broke down and died young.
A family that let HOF Center Mike Webster live in his car and under a bridge after he sacrificed his life for the team.
A family that backed up a player through two rape inquiries only because he was the starting QB, then covered up the rapes by slapping him on the wrist and advising him to get married.
A family that used it's inside connections with the commissioner's office as a bully pulpit to give its team every advantage.
Fuck these cocksuckers.
NFL Schedule comes out today ... or would you rather muse about these cocksucker's family tree on the Browns Board today?
Zombo
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I would not be that harsh about it. From an historical perspective it is somewhat interesting to me.
The Steelers team and fans can go suck a dick, but this bit about the business of the league's ownerships is somewhat intriguing.
What do you need to know? It is a family run business.
A family that introduced hardcore steriod use to the NFL.
A family that allowed players to abuse their bodies so much that many of them broke down and died young.
A family that let HOF Center Mike Webster live in his car and under a bridge after he sacrificed his life for the team.
A family that backed up a player through two rape inquiries only because he was the starting QB, then covered up the rapes by slapping him on the wrist and advising him to get married.
A family that used it's inside connections with the commissioner's office as a bully pulpit to give its team every advantage.
Fuck these cocksuckers.
NFL Schedule comes out today ... or would you rather muse about these cocksucker's family tree on the Browns Board today?
Zombo
Zombo said:
What do you need to know? It is a family run business.
A family that introduced hardcore steriod use to the NFL.
A family that allowed players to abuse their bodies so much that many of them broke down and died young.
A family that let HOF Center Mike Webster live in his car and under a bridge after he sacrificed his life for the team.
A family that backed up a player through two rape inquiries only because he was the starting QB, then covered up the rapes by slapping him on the wrist and advising him to get married.
A family that used it's inside connections with the commissioner's office as a bully pulpit to give its team every advantage.
Fuck these cocksuckers.
NFL Schedule comes out today ... or would you rather muse about these cocksucker's family tree on the Browns Board today?
Zombo
What I am wondering....hoping, is that the "new" ownership of that team will become as inept as the ownership that Browns fan have "enjoyed" over the years.
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@ghoolie said:
I am John. For decent people. Bashing a group of people for supporting their favorite team? The only person who thinks having a war because someone is a Steeler fan, is a mental moron. C'mon dude, don't be stupid. Steeler fans are no different from anyone else.
OK, basically true....but that does not mean that they should not get the shit hammered out of them for supporting that team.
And certainly, I for one, do not object to the Western PA native supporting their local team. ( I would expect them to...even while hammering on them).
No, my contempt is reserved for the Fucking FRAKS who glom on to that team while having NO connection to that local area.
Respect for them is one thing. FRAKing yourself onto them is another.
No self respecting true Steeler fan should want allthe FRAKs.
I expect that when the Browns get good, there will be a share of FRAKs here.
(note the difference: A "Fairweather fan" is still a fan of a team, but their fandom is dormant during down times. A fucking FRAK is a person that whores himself out to a winning team....because they have no personal self respect)
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