POLL: When will Baker start?
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So....this is interesting and not totally unprecedented. What we need to remember is that Baker is used to being 3rd string and then winning the starting gig relatively quickly. This is a guy who lives and loves football, and he will study and train until he can't do anymore. Baker isn't somebody who will slack off or be unprepared. He's obviously going to struggle with the size and complexity of the playbook, and of course learning how to call plays and be under center will be foreign to him. It will definitely take some time. The difference between Baker and somebody like Johnny is that Baker will probably sleep with the playbook under his pillow. I can see him standing in front of the mirror practicing calling out complicated plays. THAT'S who he is.
There are a few answers to your question. Believe it or not, we could actually TRADE Tyrod Taylor. Tyrod is a playoff QB who is 28. A prime asset. If Baker essentially explodes onto the scene, and does so relatively fast, we may give Tyrod the chance to play somewhere else by trading him to a team that suffers a QB injury in camp, or some other similar situation. I believe this scenario to be EXTREMELY unlikely, but it's possible.
Basically, we want to be very cautious with Baker, but we also can't keep him benched if he's the better option. Don't forget, the players see practice every day. They will know who is better, and they will want the guy who gives them the best chance to win and make plays. If Tyrod is playing too conservatively and our playmakers aren't getting the opportunities....there could be some grumbling. Again, I VERY much doubt this happens, as veterans much prefer veteran qb's. I don't see us trading a 3rd rounder for Tyrod only to bench him. He's going to play and probably play pretty well, like he usually does.
The thing to watch is Baker in the preseason. How does he do in the 3rd game? The first 2 are always kind of a mess. The 4th is usually a joke. The 3rd is when teams play their best players for the longest. If Baker looks prepared, competent, and "at ease" during the 3rd game, you will hear the whispers come out. If he then lights up the useless 4th game, the whispers will get louder. If we drafted Darnold, I'd say let him sit basically all year. But we have my man Baker, and Baker is used to taking jobs. My preference is for Baker to sit at least through 10 games, maybe longer, but I can definitely envision a scenario where he plays earlier, possibly from the first game.
My best guess is that Tyrod wins the job, plays pretty well, and Baker plays the last 4-5 games after we're eliminated.
As you have pointed out and added to my thoughts, Baker presents a 2018 season future that there is simply no way to predict. You know, I don't believe the football playbook is all that complicated. Honestly, not being mean but NFL players are not exactly a brilliant bunch. 2 years ago I was at a Browns event through connections with my wife's work. I learned again that 50% of all NFL playbooks are simple translations of Paul Browns playbook...something college kids are exposed to. Then, in every teams playbook there are codes/similarities if you will where perhaps 5 pass plays with slight differences are grouped together. Add to that headphone communication and plays written on the wrist band, and I don't see this as a huge, time consuming obstacle.
I keep hoping for the Dan Marino experience. Off the Bench and BOOM. I think Mayfield is that kind of a guy.
You know, I don't believe the football playbook is all that complicated. Honestly, not being mean but NFL players are not exactly a brilliant bunch.
lol......there IS that.
Still though...the NFL will be new to him. As will the bigger playbook...and the QB has to learn all of the skill positions jobs/routes.....as well as read the D pre-snap...and audible (if allowed). Now obviously all 3 QB's are learning new playbooks...but Taylor and Stanton have learned them before and are experienced in the league. They'll all have to learn their new crop of receivers and develop a timing chemistry with them. But Mayfield will be mired mostly with the 3rd stringers and will not really be able to build that chemistry with the ones.
Unloading turnover machine Kizer should be worth a win or two at least.
I still feel for that poor kid. He never should have had to play in his rookie year. He was quite young. BUT...he came to a team with the worst QB's and receivers combination in the league. Not to mention Hue, the QB bungler. May God bless him in Green Bay.
BEING A BROWNS FAN IS A TEST TO SEE HOW MUCH YOU CAN TAKE -
You know, I don't believe the football playbook is all that complicated. Honestly, not being mean but NFL players are not exactly a brilliant bunch.
lol......there IS that.
Still though...the NFL will be new to him. As will the bigger playbook...and the QB has to learn all of the skill positions jobs/routes.....as well as read the D pre-snap...and audible (if allowed). Now obviously all 3 QB's are learning new playbooks...but Taylor and Stanton have learned them before and are experienced in the league. They'll all have to learn their new crop of receivers and develop a timing chemistry with them. But Mayfield will be mired mostly with the 3rd stringers and will not really be able to build that chemistry with the ones.
Unloading turnover machine Kizer should be worth a win or two at least.
I still feel for that poor kid. He never should have had to play in his rookie year. He was quite young. BUT...he came to a team with the worst QB's and receivers combination in the league. Not to mention Hue, the QB bungler. May God bless him in Green Bay.
lol......there IS that.
Still though...the NFL will be new to him. As will the bigger playbook...and the QB has to learn all of the skill positions jobs/routes.....as well as read the D pre-snap...and audible (if allowed). Now obviously all 3 QB's are learning new playbooks...but Taylor and Stanton have learned them before and are experienced in the league. They'll all have to learn their new crop of receivers and develop a timing chemistry with them. But Mayfield will be mired mostly with the 3rd stringers and will not really be able to build that chemistry with the ones.
I still feel for that poor kid. He never should have had to play in his rookie year. He was quite young. BUT...he came to a team with the worst QB's and receivers combination in the league. Not to mention Hue, the QB bungler. May God bless him in Green Bay.
With a new Rogers deal looming, Kizer will not see the field for a very long time.
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lol......there IS that.
Still though...the NFL will be new to him. As will the bigger playbook...and the QB has to learn all of the skill positions jobs/routes.....as well as read the D pre-snap...and audible (if allowed). Now obviously all 3 QB's are learning new playbooks...but Taylor and Stanton have learned them before and are experienced in the league. They'll all have to learn their new crop of receivers and develop a timing chemistry with them. But Mayfield will be mired mostly with the 3rd stringers and will not really be able to build that chemistry with the ones.
I still feel for that poor kid. He never should have had to play in his rookie year. He was quite young. BUT...he came to a team with the worst QB's and receivers combination in the league. Not to mention Hue, the QB bungler. May God bless him in Green Bay.
With a new Rogers deal looming, Kizer will not see the field for a very long time.
With a new Rogers deal looming, Kizer will not see the field for a very long time. If ever...
In response to Orion, Kizer may turn out well- and I wish him the best. But we never should have drafted him in the first place. He was mediocre at best at ND, and he continued on the way with the Browns.
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Tyrod played 10 teams last season that are on our schedule this season. Tyrod was 6-5 with playing his most productive passing games twice against the Jets (285 2TD,224 2TD). The only other team (on are schedule)Tyrod surpassed 200 yards was TB-268-1TD. @Car,@Atl.,@Cinn.,Oak,Saints-Peterman played,@LAC & at KC? Tyrod had a low of 125 yards. at Car.. Tyrod was still throwing for less than 183 yards since Car. game..Tyrod is certainly the Game Manager..now with No Shady McCoy to feed the ball to either. But looks like Tyrod has far more passing weapons to throw it around with here. Once Haley gets off all the underneath routes & actually takes some shots down field? .. that's when Tyrod could keep Mayfield as the next MaHolmes warming up for next season..stay tuned
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With a new Rogers deal looming, Kizer will not see the field for a very long time. If ever...
In response to Orion, Kizer may turn out well- and I wish him the best. But we never should have drafted him in the first place. He was mediocre at best at ND, and he continued on the way with the Browns.
In response to Orion, Kizer may turn out well- and I wish him the best. But we never should have drafted him in the first place. He was mediocre at best at ND, and he continued on the way with the Browns.
You are very correct. He should have stayed in college another year.
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So....this is interesting and not totally unprecedented. What we need to remember is that Baker is used to being 3rd string and then winning the starting gig relatively quickly. This is a guy who lives and loves football, and he will study and train until he can't do anymore. Baker isn't somebody who will slack off or be unprepared. He's obviously going to struggle with the size and complexity of the playbook, and of course learning how to call plays and be under center will be foreign to him. It will definitely take some time. The difference between Baker and somebody like Johnny is that Baker will probably sleep with the playbook under his pillow. I can see him standing in front of the mirror practicing calling out complicated plays. THAT'S who he is.
There are a few answers to your question. Believe it or not, we could actually TRADE Tyrod Taylor. Tyrod is a playoff QB who is 28. A prime asset. If Baker essentially explodes onto the scene, and does so relatively fast, we may give Tyrod the chance to play somewhere else by trading him to a team that suffers a QB injury in camp, or some other similar situation. I believe this scenario to be EXTREMELY unlikely, but it's possible.
Basically, we want to be very cautious with Baker, but we also can't keep him benched if he's the better option. Don't forget, the players see practice every day. They will know who is better, and they will want the guy who gives them the best chance to win and make plays. If Tyrod is playing too conservatively and our playmakers aren't getting the opportunities....there could be some grumbling. Again, I VERY much doubt this happens, as veterans much prefer veteran qb's. I don't see us trading a 3rd rounder for Tyrod only to bench him. He's going to play and probably play pretty well, like he usually does.
The thing to watch is Baker in the preseason. How does he do in the 3rd game? The first 2 are always kind of a mess. The 4th is usually a joke. The 3rd is when teams play their best players for the longest. If Baker looks prepared, competent, and "at ease" during the 3rd game, you will hear the whispers come out. If he then lights up the useless 4th game, the whispers will get louder. If we drafted Darnold, I'd say let him sit basically all year. But we have my man Baker, and Baker is used to taking jobs. My preference is for Baker to sit at least through 10 games, maybe longer, but I can definitely envision a scenario where he plays earlier, possibly from the first game.
My best guess is that Tyrod wins the job, plays pretty well, and Baker plays the last 4-5 games after we're eliminated.
I agree with basically everything you said until that last sentence. If Taylor can just manage to be an extremely average NFL QB- we could find ourselves in the playoff hunt. We were in a dozen games the last two year right up until the end... and that was with some of the worst QB play the NFL has ever seen. There is NO WAY we don't compete for the division if Taylor plays pretty well. With our blooming defense of speed and power, our playmakers on offense and our usually above average special teams- if we can find a guy that isn't a complete meltdown in the redzone, we could be poised for a phenomenal season- the likes of which haven't been seen since 07.
I agree with basically everything you said until that last sentence. If Taylor can just manage to be an extremely average NFL QB- we could find ourselves in the playoff hunt. We were in a dozen games the last two year right up until the end... and that was with some of the worst QB play the NFL has ever seen. There is NO WAY we don't compete for the division if Taylor plays pretty well. With our blooming defense of speed and power, our playmakers on offense and our usually above average special teams- if we can find a guy that isn't a complete meltdown in the redzone, we could be poised for a phenomenal season- the likes of which haven't been seen since 07.
To be honest, I originally had a similar sentiment but deleted it because I didn't want to go over the top. Here's the problem I see...our schedule absolutely sucks. I'm not just talking about WHO we play, because analysis shows us that you can't really rely on the previous year's win-loss record. I'm talking about the setup. Playing the Steelers game 1 is a kick in the junk. Traveling 1000 miles the FOLLOWING week to another playoff team, is a bigger kick. Coming BACK home to play on Thursday is the biggest. We have the very real, and likely, possibility of being 0-2 and coming back to Cleveland to play perhaps our "easiest" game with only a few days to rest and practice. I mean, for a team that's 1-31 over 2 years, our schedule beginning just feels punitive. The Saints are a mother effer at home. We simply don't beat the Steelers, and we don't win openers. It really is the worst possible beginning scenario.
Now, not all hope is lost. We somehow fought the Steelers in game 1 last year, and that blocked punt TD was really what did us in. We need to find SOME way split those two games, and then beat the Jets to go 2-1 through 3 games. However, let's not forget the Jets somehow signed virtually every free agent in the world, so they're likely to be much better this year from a talent standpoint. Our best bet is for Darnold to win the job, and then take advantage of his rookie mistakes. I don't see this happening, but there's a chance.
If we get to something like 0-3, it's going to be another LONG season. We CAN'T have that. To your point, we were definitely in many games last year, and we need to find ways to WIN games rather than lose them. Another major concern I have is the lack of a reliable FG kicker. How many games come down to just a few points? Tyrod is VERY safe, especially in the scoring part of the field, so I expect a TON of FG opportunities, and touchdowns being somewhat elusive. That means we need them all. We can't be going for it on 4th down because we don't trust our freaking kicker. Am I making sense?
Ultimately, I desperately want you to be right. I very much want to see us competitive into December and having fun every weekend. This town is a sleeping giant, and we WANT to explode.
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You are very correct. He should have stayed in college another year.
To be honest.....a potentiall useless as he may have turned out to be, the Browns should have kept Osweiler and started him for most of the season and let Kizer ride the pine and learn. After all, they did have to pay the Big B.O. 16 mill. Better to keep and use him than just dump him....particularly when you did not have any other competent QBs on the team. And if B.O. had played like shite....like he think he may have, then they could have put Kizer in midway through the season.
The team would have been no worse off....
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You are very correct. He should have stayed in college another year.
To be honest.....a potentiall useless as he may have turned out to be, the Browns should have kept Osweiler and started him for most of the season and let Kizer ride the pine and learn. After all, they did have to pay the Big B.O. 16 mill. Better to keep and use him than just dump him....particularly when you did not have any other competent QBs on the team. And if B.O. had played like shite....like he think he may have, then they could have put Kizer in midway through the season.
The team would have been no worse off....
To be honest.....a potentiall useless as he may have turned out to be, the Browns should have kept Osweiler and started him for most of the season and let Kizer ride the pine and learn. After all, they did have to pay the Big B.O. 16 mill. Better to keep and use him than just dump him....particularly when you did not have any other competent QBs on the team. And if B.O. had played like shite....like he think he may have, then they could have put Kizer in midway through the season.
The team would have been no worse off....
Agreed. They knew we were not going to win much, so they went for youth.
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You know, I don't believe the football playbook is all that complicated. Honestly, not being mean but NFL players are not exactly a brilliant bunch.
lol......there IS that.
Still though...the NFL will be new to him. As will the bigger playbook...and the QB has to learn all of the skill positions jobs/routes.....as well as read the D pre-snap...and audible (if allowed). Now obviously all 3 QB's are learning new playbooks...but Taylor and Stanton have learned them before and are experienced in the league. They'll all have to learn their new crop of receivers and develop a timing chemistry with them. But Mayfield will be mired mostly with the 3rd stringers and will not really be able to build that chemistry with the ones.
Unloading turnover machine Kizer should be worth a win or two at least.
I still feel for that poor kid. He never should have had to play in his rookie year. He was quite young. BUT...he came to a team with the worst QB's and receivers combination in the league. Not to mention Hue, the QB bungler. May God bless him in Green Bay.
lol......there IS that.
Still though...the NFL will be new to him. As will the bigger playbook...and the QB has to learn all of the skill positions jobs/routes.....as well as read the D pre-snap...and audible (if allowed). Now obviously all 3 QB's are learning new playbooks...but Taylor and Stanton have learned them before and are experienced in the league. They'll all have to learn their new crop of receivers and develop a timing chemistry with them. But Mayfield will be mired mostly with the 3rd stringers and will not really be able to build that chemistry with the ones.
I still feel for that poor kid. He never should have had to play in his rookie year. He was quite young. BUT...he came to a team with the worst QB's and receivers combination in the league. Not to mention Hue, the QB bungler. May God bless him in Green Bay.
I agree. I didn't like him, only in that I don't like run-first QBs. However, if you look at how Bill Cowher groomed Kordell Stewart it makes the Browns treatment of Kizer look very badly.
Kizer was the right choice to start. Forget his mistake-prone crap. He had physical skills beyond anyone the Browns have had at QB position. My complaint goes way beyond him having to play with the threat of being pulled, but extends to the Browns idiotic expectation that giving him 1 season was enough. If I was the coach and I was saddled with this kid, I would have either benched him as a project, or started him with the idea that I was going to take 3 years to turn him into a polished product.
Complain all one wants to about his inaccuracy, but if you are going to name the guy your starter, then you give him the confidence of the franchise's commitment. If not, then why even draft the kid in the first place?
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I'd like to see Baker sit and learn.
I'd like to see Baker sit and learn.
For how many winless weeks?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I'd like to see Baker sit and learn.
For how many winless weeks?
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I'd like to see Baker sit and learn.
For how many winless weeks?
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He should start when
A. Taylor goes down
B. It becomes clear he's demonstrably and objectively better than Taylor
He should not start in his rookie year if
A. Taylor is healthy
B. Taylor struggles but isn't actively losing games.
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He should start when
A. Taylor goes down
B. It becomes clear he's demonstrably and objectively better than Taylor
He should not start in his rookie year if
A. Taylor is healthy
B. Taylor struggles but isn't actively losing games.
He should start when
A. Taylor goes down
B. It becomes clear he's demonstrably and objectively better than Taylor
He should not start in his rookie year if
A. Taylor is healthy
B. Taylor struggles but isn't actively losing games.
the top and bottom will likely/hopefully contradict each other. I sure as hell hope at some point this year, and relatively early in it, it becomes clear the #1 pick in the entire draft(who is 23 years old already and most definately not a project) is better than tyrod taylor.......if it doesn't, we've likely drafted the wrong guy
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He should start when
A. Taylor goes down
B. It becomes clear he's demonstrably and objectively better than Taylor
He should not start in his rookie year if
A. Taylor is healthy
B. Taylor struggles but isn't actively losing games.
the top and bottom will likely/hopefully contradict each other. I sure as hell hope at some point this year, and relatively early in it, it becomes clear the #1 pick in the entire draft(who is 23 years old already and most definately not a project) is better than tyrod taylor.......if it doesn't, we've likely drafted the wrong guy
the top and bottom will likely/hopefully contradict each other. I sure as hell hope at some point this year, and relatively early in it, it becomes clear the #1 pick in the entire draft(who is 23 years old already and most definately not a project) is better than tyrod taylor.......if it doesn't, we've likely drafted the wrong guy
I do not expect that at all the first year. One breakdown showed he took exactly 7 snaps under center last year. He has a lot to learn about the pro offense and that just does not happen overnight as we have seen with just about every new QB the Browns have had since '99. This is not a footrace to throw him in when you have a QB who HAS taken a team to the playoffs already there to learn from. There is no magic fairy dust to convert a college QB into a pro QB by midnight.
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The wins or lack thereof should not be a factor in when Mayfield plays. The problem is, The Quarterback Bungler is in charge of that.
I don't think starting Baker would be a bungle... that would be starting-benching-then starting him again.
The pressure will come from the slew of Browns fans who see their ludicrous 8-8-ish... or higher... projections fading early. It's a time tested scenario.
If we start 0-4, which is a distinct possibility, the only way your "should" has a chance in hell of being in effect is if Dorsey/Haslam have ordered Hue to sit Baker for a prescribed number of weeks greater than 4... and even then we know the depth of Haslam's resolve.
In the alternative say we open 0-3, Taylor gets nicked Week 3 and is out a month. Stanton looks like Stanton in relief Week 3 and all Week 4 and we go 0-4? Week 5? Ditto about half of the above chance in hell.
There's a growing chorus of those who believe that Baker will win the job and start Week 1. While I'm not quite there yet, I've moved up my first-start projection from after our Bye Week to Week 5... and I'm eyeballing Week 4 on the road. In either case a likely relief appearance precedes the start.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I'd like to see Baker sit and learn.
For how many winless weeks?
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I'd like to see Baker sit and learn.
For how many winless weeks?
For how many winless weeks?
I will say it again. I hope the Browns just put Baker in when THEY, and not the record, the fans or the pundits cry for it. In reality, you can't keep a #1 #1 QB draft on the bench all year. YOu drafted him to play and play he must.
The Cleveland Browns have the hardest hit players in the NFL -
The wins or lack thereof should not be a factor in when Mayfield plays. The problem is, The Quarterback Bungler is in charge of that.
I don't think starting Baker would be a bungle... that would be starting-benching-then starting him again.
The pressure will come from the slew of Browns fans who see their ludicrous 8-8-ish... or higher... projections fading early. It's a time tested scenario.
If we start 0-4, which is a distinct possibility, the only way your "should" has a chance in hell of being in effect is if Dorsey/Haslam have ordered Hue to sit Baker for a prescribed number of weeks greater than 4... and even then we know the depth of Haslam's resolve.
In the alternative say we open 0-3, Taylor gets nicked Week 3 and is out a month. Stanton looks like Stanton in relief Week 3 and all Week 4 and we go 0-4? Week 5? Ditto about half of the above chance in hell.
There's a growing chorus of those who believe that Baker will win the job and start Week 1. While I'm not quite there yet, I've moved up my first-start projection from after our Bye Week to Week 5... and I'm eyeballing Week 4 on the road. In either case a likely relief appearance precedes the start.
I don't think starting Baker would be a bungle... that would be starting-benching-then starting him again. It is history that tells me that Hue is a Quarterback Bungler...for the reason that you state. I have no faith in him. I did at first...but his actions eroded that faith. So, faith once lost has to be earned back. I'd prefer not to see if Hue can do that. I'd like TieRod, and the other new components of the offense, be able to gel well enough to win enough games to keep Baker learning from the sidelines....
The pressure will come from the slew of Browns fans
The coaches, etc. should not be swayed from doing the right thing buy a bunch of short-sighted fans. (the infamous 'should' again)
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