Jonathan Paul Manziel
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What's the difference if they are going to run an entirely different offense when he's in?
And he most certainly wasn't ready to start after sitting out the entire preseason.
I'll watch for the "different offense", Steve, but I do not think it is the case. The use of the Pistol appears with JM in, but that does not mean the play calls change. I'll add that IMO the Pistol reduces the effectiveness of Play Action which should be an integral part of our offense.
Entire pre-season? He played in good chunks of games one and two. One pre-season game is what effectively what would have been added had his elbow not flared up. That would not have made an appreciable difference in his readiness to start the season.
I'll watch for the "different offense", Steve, but I do not think it is the case. The use of the Pistol appears with JM in, but that does not mean the play calls change. I'll add that IMO the Pistol reduces the effectiveness of Play Action which should be an integral part of our offense.
Entire pre-season? He played in good chunks of games one and two. One pre-season game is what effectively what would have been added had his elbow not flared up. That would not have made an appreciable difference in his readiness to start the season.
Well then chunks in the first two completely meaningless preseason games with the future UPS delivery men should be more than enough. I stand corrected. More than enough to earn a few weeks off.
WSS
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Touche'...
As for the further above...
Agree, war, not all comments are created equal...
Agree... JM does not have the same mindset as Wilson, but he needs to and I think he's moving in that direction thanks to McCown.
Drew Brees may be the best "short" QB ever. He overcomes his height liability by slipping around in the pocket to find sight lanes that become throwing lanes. Also helps that he looks for clues as to the coverage rather than surveys the field for open WRs. JM is nowhere near there... yet... but is showing signs of moving in that direction.
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When we drafted Manziel I read many sports articles comparing him to Russell Wilson. Then he had his disastrous rookie season with many of his self inflicted problems. For me it's is not that he had a super great game Sunday against the Jets (he didn't) but for the first time I saw the potential he has of being a Wilson type quarterback. I read where former NFL quarterback Roger Staubach said Manziel had Wilson type capabilities (IF) he got his life turned around:
βIf he really truly gets his life back on track, his talent is Russell Wilson-type talent,β Staubach told USA Todayβs Jim Corbett. βSo size isnβt the overwhelming issue for him when you have Russell and Drew Brees winning Super Bowls at the same size.β
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This Manziel is too small to be a pocket passer is bull. People here are saying Russell Wilson is a "pocket passer" and he's around an inch shorter than JF.
Regarding your comments about Manziel as a quarterback Nickers- that's what rookie quarterbacks tend to do. For all intents and purposes, this is Johnny's rookie year. Guys like Andrew Luck are a once in a decade occurrence. At least for now, I'm willing to give him more time to develop.
Larry.. He struggles to see over his line.. I'm just not buying it with this kid..He's not even calculating like a Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers (players with a chess board mentality).. I'm just not seeing it from him.
Larry.. He struggles to see over his line.. I'm just not buying it with this kid..He's not even calculating like a Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers (players with a chess board mentality).. I'm just not seeing it from him.
Ag beat me to it- Brees is exactly the same height- look it up if you doubt us. If JM learns how to use sight lanes, as Tour suggested- he'll be fine. BTW, Brian Sipe was one inch taller than Manziel- if you think that makes a difference, I'd say not. The difference this year is Manziel figured he has to be "all in". on learning how to be a pro quarterback- or he's going to be out the door- fast.
you can go back to texas .. He blows dognutz
Everyone is entitled to their opinion here.
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Larry.. He struggles to see over his line.. I'm just not buying it with this kid..He's not even calculating like a Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers (players with a chess board mentality).. I'm just not seeing it from him.
Ag beat me to it- Brees is exactly the same height- look it up if you doubt us. If JM learns how to use sight lanes, as Tour suggested- he'll be fine. BTW, Brian Sipe was one inch taller than Manziel- if you think that makes a difference, I'd say not. The difference this year is Manziel figured he has to be "all in". on learning how to be a pro quarterback- or he's going to be out the door- fast.
you can go back to texas .. He blows dognutz
Everyone is entitled to their opinion here.
Ag beat me to it- Brees is exactly the same height- look it up if you doubt us. If JM learns how to use sight lanes, as Tour suggested- he'll be fine. BTW, Brian Sipe was one inch taller than Manziel- if you think that makes a difference, I'd say not. The difference this year is Manziel figured he has to be "all in". on learning how to be a pro quarterback- or he's going to be out the door- fast.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion here.
However if you can't back up your comment (nickers), you can always resort to, "Well, oh yeah asswipe?" or something similar like "you can go back to texas .. He blows dognutz." Works well in Jr. High.
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Of course Seattle have had to tailor their offense to fit Wilson, been doing it since he joined, they are brilliantly coached.
Of course Seattle have had to tailor their offense to fit Wilson, been doing it since he joined, they are brilliantly coached.
Really? Other than the fake reads and occasional option, what else has changed? Still a power run team that builds to boot action and high YPC.
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I like that some people are accepting Manziel might not have been as bad as they original thought, or at least willing to give him a chance. I'm hopeful from what I've seen so far this offseason up to now.
For the most part he gets the ball out quickly, and has the arm... I have no concerns about that.
Ball security, pocket awareness, and knowing when to live to fight another day are big steps he needs to take.
That isn't to say he doesn't throw the ball from the pocket effectively, because he did that against the Jets. His 3-step drop and pop was really good (TD to Benjamin was out quick, and thrown well before Benjamin burnt Cromartie), with exception to the INT that he missed/Marcus Williams boxed Hartline out on. I wrote something about his Week 1 game on my site, and it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows.
Minimizing turnovers against Dick LeBeau's protege Titans D will be a tall task. If he plays, we'll see how he handles it.
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I think any Wilson comparison was a poor one for Johnny coming out of college. Wilson was in a pro system in college and, as some have said, was very conservative.
I'm not sure if his best option was to try to become Wilson, or to play in a wide open offense like Chip Kelly's, similar to the ones he always has. But in our offense, he either has to do the former (though a different degree of success would be tolerable), or he's going to fail. Simple as that, I think.
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Shocker here we are page 4(nailed it) of 72. Yes Drew Brees and R. Wilson have proven one thing that JM can't prove yet but don't give up hope with him now serious about NFL football. It's called passing windows between the lineman that a short QB must learn to get threw the window with accuracy on the pass to his receiver to make a short QB a good Pocket passer in this league. Watch Brees. see ya next chapter. It's not easy and time will tell..
Browns & Buffett: Got to go fishin, Down to rock bottom again, with just a few Friends -
Johnny Manziel's ceiling is Doug Flutie
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Shocker here we are page 4(nailed it) of 72. Yes Drew Brees and R. Wilson have proven one thing that JM can't prove yet but don't give up hope with him now serious about NFL football. It's called passing windows between the lineman that a short QB must learn to get threw the window with accuracy on the pass to his receiver to make a short QB a good Pocket passer in this league. Watch Brees. see ya next chapter. It's not easy and time will tell..
Shocker here we are page 4(nailed it) of 72. Yes Drew Brees and R. Wilson have proven one thing that JM can't prove yet but don't give up hope with him now serious about NFL football. It's called passing windows between the lineman that a short QB must learn to get threw the window with accuracy on the pass to his receiver to make a short QB a good Pocket passer in this league. Watch Brees. see ya next chapter. It's not easy and time will tell..
Perhaps its also worth noting that another reason Breesy and Wilson can play from the pocket and utilize these windows is that they have a nice, high release. Very prototypical of an NFL QB. Johnny's is a 3/4 and that makes a TON of difference.
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Manziel needs time to learn and stay patient. The college game is churning out these mobile quarterbacks and most of them will never succeed. It's a win now business. RG3 is perfect example, can't stay healthy. Mariota may be an exception. He looked poised and didn't take off running at the first sign of pressure. That's what Manziel has to do. Study film and learn.
If Manziel starts the rest of the season and stays healthy he has a chance. Albeit slim. I had more hopes for him and the Browns after the draft when everyone was talking about our OLINE.
If anything, I was hoping the Browns would suddenly morph into the Seahawks with defense and run game.
Old Browns Fan brings up a point that has nagged many of us. What was their plan for Manziel? A barely 6ft QB who's mobile and no big wide receiver was drafted. Mike Evans was right there if they were hell bent on JFF.
I am getting old too and have seen decades of this head scratching franchise.
Remember, I was a kid when they traded Paul Warfield, benched Brian Sipe for Paul McDonald, drafted Mike Junkin. After 50 years it's hard to be an eternal optimist yet I still root root for the Browns.
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Manziel needs time to learn and stay patient. The college game is churning out these mobile quarterbacks and most of them will never succeed. It's a win now business. RG3 is perfect example, can't stay healthy. Mariota may be an exception. He looked poised and didn't take off running at the first sign of pressure. That's what Manziel has to do. Study film and learn.
If Manziel starts the rest of the season and stays healthy he has a chance. Albeit slim. I had more hopes for him and the Browns after the draft when everyone was talking about our OLINE.
If anything, I was hoping the Browns would suddenly morph into the Seahawks with defense and run game.
Old Browns Fan brings up a point that has nagged many of us. What was their plan for Manziel? A barely 6ft QB who's mobile and no big wide receiver was drafted. Mike Evans was right there if they were hell bent on JFF.
I am getting old too and have seen decades of this head scratching franchise.
Remember, I was a kid when they traded Paul Warfield, benched Brian Sipe for Paul McDonald, drafted Mike Junkin. After 50 years it's hard to be an eternal optimist yet I still root root for the Browns.
Manziel needs time to learn and stay patient. The college game is churning out these mobile quarterbacks and most of them will never succeed. It's a win now business. RG3 is perfect example, can't stay healthy. Mariota may be an exception. He looked poised and didn't take off running at the first sign of pressure. That's what Manziel has to do. Study film and learn.
If Manziel starts the rest of the season and stays healthy he has a chance. Albeit slim. I had more hopes for him and the Browns after the draft when everyone was talking about our OLINE.
If anything, I was hoping the Browns would suddenly morph into the Seahawks with defense and run game.
Old Browns Fan brings up a point that has nagged many of us. What was their plan for Manziel? A barely 6ft QB who's mobile and no big wide receiver was drafted. Mike Evans was right there if they were hell bent on JFF.
I am getting old too and have seen decades of this head scratching franchise.
Remember, I was a kid when they traded Paul Warfield, benched Brian Sipe for Paul McDonald, drafted Mike Junkin. After 50 years it's hard to be an eternal optimist yet I still root root for the Browns.
yeah so you're my age.
thing with any rookie QB or any rookie period in this day and age is people don't have patience. hell, same with coaches.
we want andrew luck, matt ryan and eli. the quintessential prototypical NFL QB without any excuses of 'has to sit and learn'.
i think manziel is going in the right direction. just don't want to be saying the same thing 3 years from now.
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Hey guys havent posten in a while.
As far as Jonny is concerned I think he looked improved. He needs some time for the nfl game to slow down for him still, I think he can get there. Needs to work on protecting the ball, clearly he knows that. Id say:
Arm-is making all the throws. Check.
Prep- Pettine said he did a good job lining people up, understanding the play. Check.
Ball security- Big issue. Needs overhaul on how to carry, he carried it pretty loose in college too but got hit with poorer technique. Needs improvement.
Decision making- Much improved from last year to be honest. Didnt get talked about too much. Maybe on par for how many starts he has, could be improved a bit. Check (good enough).
Something that has really fell through the cracks is the jets matchup and game plan against us. First of all, the way they are set up defensively blow us up. They have strong cover corners and a great D line. What did they do? Let their corners play 1v1 against our WR, who are not huge playmakers, and load the box. They had the box stacked when we tried to run and had pressure on Jonny when we tried to throw. With that gameplan we were going to be forced into our Wr or tight ends getting open in 1v1 situations. Thas not the strength of the browns right now and they had the personell to put us in that situatiom. I suspect that our line will look much better and our run game will look much improved against the Titans. Subsequently, Jonny and the passing game might have managable 3rd downs and we can move the ball more efficiently.
Overall, id like to at least see what the guy has. I dont mind differing opinions, but please can your opinions be valid, based on whats happening. Dont post 1000 posts about how Jonny has no arm strength or looks to run all the time (not so much in this thread but "hard to stay positive" thread and past threads) .... based on he can run or hes a smaller qb. Hes got great arm stregth for his size and hes more than average in Nfl terms. He can run when a play collapses, thats a strength. Just tell me you dont want him to play because he doesnt go through his entire progression or doesnt look poised enough. Anything that you see on the field! Not basis-less bullshit you made up in your head. Thats my 2 cents.
Also, Lets go Browns!
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Shocker here we are page 4(nailed it) of 72. Yes Drew Brees and R. Wilson have proven one thing that JM can't prove yet but don't give up hope with him now serious about NFL football. It's called passing windows between the lineman that a short QB must learn to get threw the window with accuracy on the pass to his receiver to make a short QB a good Pocket passer in this league. Watch Brees. see ya next chapter. It's not easy and time will tell..
Perhaps its also worth noting that another reason Breesy and Wilson can play from the pocket and utilize these windows is that they have a nice, high release. Very prototypical of an NFL QB. Johnny's is a 3/4 and that makes a TON of difference.
Perhaps its also worth noting that another reason Breesy and Wilson can play from the pocket and utilize these windows is that they have a nice, high release. Very prototypical of an NFL QB. Johnny's is a 3/4 and that makes a TON of difference.
In batted balls? Yes... In vision? No...
Hey guys havent posten in a while.
Yeah... What's up with that?
I dunno, guys... watching the tape and I'm getting depressed.
About the line...
About our backs...
Even about our lil' QB... not seeing the progress I thought I saw in the game. Here are two plays...
The TD Pass...
I originally thought it was a great read of a WR even with a DB ("If you're even, you're open") and a better throw to the outside that redirected a WR who was drifting towards the single-high Safety closing from the middle.
After further review I see a "WTF-an-INT-is-as-good-as-a-punt" throw on 3rd and 19. Crowmartie was tight to the line, but rather than press he almost immediately turned and ran two-yards in front of Benji matching him stride for stride for 10 yards. That's where he was as JM began his throw.
Crom was actually looking at JM as the throw began and slowed. Why? Don't know for sure... playing for the back shoulder? Expecting inside help? Forgot the down and distance? All? Regardless JM's shoulder angle said anything but "here come a hard low throw". What I do know is that there was no way to anticipate Crom slowing.
When Crom slowed, Benji broke to the inside making the outside the wrong side. Doesn't make it a bad play... it was 3rd and 19 after all... just does not make it the great play that I thought I saw originally.
The missed, 2Q, TD passes... yes, passes...
We all know about missing Hawk wide to the left after being flushed left out of the pocket. That was on 2nd and goal from the 5. As executed the pass was wide left and drew Hawk OB. It did not need to be quite so wide, but it did get easier the wider it was thrown so the conservatism is understandable and appreciated.
What bothered me more upon review is that the pass was thrown from 10-yds behind the line. The more JM presses the line, putting the lone DB between he and Hawk in a run-pass quandary, the easier the pass becomes. This would seem to be the type of opportunity JFF would immediately recognize and grasp.
Next came a delay of game... a time out might have been advisable, but set that aside for now.
On third and goal from the 10 JM missed a fade set up with Benji on Buster. The throw to the back pylon was there and JM did not pull the trigger. Positives of the play was JM had stared the Safety into being a statue in the middle prior to coming off him, and JM was stepping up and left away from minor, but real, pressure. As he stepped up Benji was one step from the CB, who was still squatted facing JM.
There was a sight/throwing lane and JM moved into it so I've no question the read could have been made. It was literally a split-second read, but one a good NFL QB must make. Especially since a throw to the pylon gave only a Benji a chance to catch the ball.JM's just not up to that speed. Instead JM bailed with zero chance to score and gained 3 yards.
JM made other good throws and varied throws. From a sweet, Q2 swing pass to Benji on Flip's best designed play of the game to a 3rd and 8, rifle shot to Hart in Q3 through a 5-yd wide throwing lane. Both were clearly first reads.
Still have a qtr-and-a-half to go...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
We all know there are many TV analysts that just hate Johnny - some for good reason, others, like dickbag Merrill Hoge, for who-knows-why.
Ron Jawarski has always been pretty critical. This morning on Mike n Mike, he said he liked what he saw, for the most part, from Johnny. This gave me some hope, and remembering it is his 4th NFL game, is refreshing to hear from someone who really knows the position.
If he just continues to improve, and gets rid of the huge mistake plays, there is hope.
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We all know there are many TV analysts that just hate Johnny - some for good reason, others, like dickbag Merrill Hoge, for who-knows-why.
Ron Jawarski has always been pretty critical. This morning on Mike n Mike, he said he liked what he saw, for the most part, from Johnny. This gave me some hope, and remembering it is his 4th NFL game, is refreshing to hear from someone who really knows the position.
If he just continues to improve, and gets rid of the huge mistake plays, there is hope.
We all know there are many TV analysts that just hate Johnny - some for good reason, others, like dickbag Merrill Hoge, for who-knows-why.
Ron Jawarski has always been pretty critical. This morning on Mike n Mike, he said he liked what he saw, for the most part, from Johnny. This gave me some hope, and remembering it is his 4th NFL game, is refreshing to hear from someone who really knows the position.
If he just continues to improve, and gets rid of the huge mistake plays, there is hope.
Yes, you keep believing that.
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We all know there are many TV analysts that just hate Johnny - some for good reason, others, like dickbag Merrill Hoge, for who-knows-why.
Ron Jawarski has always been pretty critical. This morning on Mike n Mike, he said he liked what he saw, for the most part, from Johnny. This gave me some hope, and remembering it is his 4th NFL game, is refreshing to hear from someone who really knows the position.
If he just continues to improve, and gets rid of the huge mistake plays, there is hope.
Yes, you keep believing that.
Yes, you keep believing that.
Umm, it's not just me. That's the point.
Do you think Jawarski would say he was encouraged by some of the things Johnny did if there were no hope at all? No, he would say there's no hope at all.
Keep being an internet cool guy, though, with your one line sarcasms that add nothing to the discussion.
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Perhaps its also worth noting that another reason Breesy and Wilson can play from the pocket and utilize these windows is that they have a nice, high release. Very prototypical of an NFL QB. Johnny's is a 3/4 and that makes a TON of difference.
In batted balls? Yes... In vision? No...
Hey guys havent posten in a while.
Yeah... What's up with that?
I dunno, guys... watching the tape and I'm getting depressed.
About the line...
About our backs...
Even about our lil' QB... not seeing the progress I thought I saw in the game. Here are two plays...
The TD Pass...
I originally thought it was a great read of a WR even with a DB ("If you're even, you're open") and a better throw to the outside that redirected a WR who was drifting towards the single-high Safety closing from the middle.
After further review I see a "WTF-an-INT-is-as-good-as-a-punt" throw on 3rd and 19. Crowmartie was tight to the line, but rather than press he almost immediately turned and ran two-yards in front of Benji matching him stride for stride for 10 yards. That's where he was as JM began his throw.
Crom was actually looking at JM as the throw began and slowed. Why? Don't know for sure... playing for the back shoulder? Expecting inside help? Forgot the down and distance? All? Regardless JM's shoulder angle said anything but "here come a hard low throw". What I do know is that there was no way to anticipate Crom slowing.
When Crom slowed, Benji broke to the inside making the outside the wrong side. Doesn't make it a bad play... it was 3rd and 19 after all... just does not make it the great play that I thought I saw originally.
The missed, 2Q, TD passes... yes, passes...
We all know about missing Hawk wide to the left after being flushed left out of the pocket. That was on 2nd and goal from the 5. As executed the pass was wide left and drew Hawk OB. It did not need to be quite so wide, but it did get easier the wider it was thrown so the conservatism is understandable and appreciated.
What bothered me more upon review is that the pass was thrown from 10-yds behind the line. The more JM presses the line, putting the lone DB between he and Hawk in a run-pass quandary, the easier the pass becomes. This would seem to be the type of opportunity JFF would immediately recognize and grasp.
Next came a delay of game... a time out might have been advisable, but set that aside for now.
On third and goal from the 10 JM missed a fade set up with Benji on Buster. The throw to the back pylon was there and JM did not pull the trigger. Positives of the play was JM had stared the Safety into being a statue in the middle prior to coming off him, and JM was stepping up and left away from minor, but real, pressure. As he stepped up Benji was one step from the CB, who was still squatted facing JM.
There was a sight/throwing lane and JM moved into it so I've no question the read could have been made. It was literally a split-second read, but one a good NFL QB must make. Especially since a throw to the pylon gave only a Benji a chance to catch the ball.JM's just not up to that speed. Instead JM bailed with zero chance to score and gained 3 yards.
JM made other good throws and varied throws. From a sweet, Q2 swing pass to Benji on Flip's best designed play of the game to a 3rd and 8, rifle shot to Hart in Q3 through a 5-yd wide throwing lane. Both were clearly first reads.
Still have a qtr-and-a-half to go...
The TD Pass...
I originally thought it was a great read of a WR even with a DB ("If you're even, you're open") and a better throw to the outside that redirected a WR who was drifting towards the single-high Safety closing from the middle.
After further review I see a "WTF-an-INT-is-as-good-as-a-punt" throw on 3rd and 19. Crowmartie was tight to the line, but rather than press he almost immediately turned and ran two-yards in front of Benji matching him stride for stride for 10 yards. That's where he was as JM began his throw.
Crom was actually looking at JM as the throw began and slowed. Why? Don't know for sure... playing for the back shoulder? Expecting inside help? Forgot the down and distance? All? Regardless JM's shoulder angle said anything but "here come a hard low throw". What I do know is that there was no way to anticipate Crom slowing.
When Crom slowed, Benji broke to the inside making the outside the wrong side. Doesn't make it a bad play... it was 3rd and 19 after all... just does not make it the great play that I thought I saw originally.
It's incredible how many different ways one play can be looked at, depending on agenda.
Bill "qb guru" O'Brien just said starting Hoyer was mistake, FYI.
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Where was that? I saw Hoyer was expected to start.
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