Jonathan Paul Manziel
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I didn't read anything else you wrote because this is just a Retarded statement, I'm sure the rest was just as dumb.He's guaranteed something for 2015 because he is their first round pick at qb. er 20 games)
If he doesn't earn it this Sunday and next, he isn't being guaranteed shit for 2015. Even if he plays average or above average or shows some signs of NFL competency he won't be handed the gig.
Justin Gilbert was 8th overall and he got outperformed by the UDFA Williams. So you know what happened? He got put on the bench. But in 2015 gilbert is guaranteed to start by your logic regardless of performance because he was drafted in the 1st round? Or is it just different for QBs, or specifically for Manziel?
If it turns out that manziel sucks these last 2, why would he start over the guy who hasn't sucked complete balls?
I know you love johnny and are probably writing from your iPad in bed staring at a home made manziel fathead in a speedo that sits above your bed, but don't you think he should earn the start, not just be gift wrapped it?
I didn't read anything else you wrote because this is just a Retarded statement, I'm sure the rest was just as dumb.
/quote]
That's too bad because I did read your whole post, and the part of my post you didn't read addresses all the issues you raise.
A ton of history with these situations(as well as what the browns situation at qb will be next season) makes it pretty clear JF is the starter next year.
Qb is not cornerback or any other position. You don't neccessarily start the guy who is best for the job at that particular minute. You have to take a big picture approach.
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K, lol
If you weren't such a Johnny fan you'd be a little more objective in your thoughts.
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I'm the one who post after post in various threads has gone over all the first round qbs in the past who suck in their first several starts and get gobs more starts...that's pretty objective. Much more objective than just declaring JF has 2-3 starts to show something or else.....when there is no basis for that.
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I agree that Hoyer won't be around next year - I just don't see that happening. I think all focus will go into making JM into an NFL QB and he'll probably have the first two games next year to prove his mettle. So let's say he's a bust? Oh, well, someone took a risk on a potential game changing QB and it didn't work. The FO are going to have to prepare for that in the off season with a veteran signing and Shaw (who I still think is the real gem here). I feel bad for Pettine et al, as this was a Hazlam pick and he should have stayed out of those decisions. But the team won at least 7 games w/o pro bowlers, a franchise QB and other key players, and that it my books is a huge improvement. Stay the course and we could see a wild card next year with a few more pieces and another year of preparation. There is so much to love about the Browns and the right QB will land or develop here soon. Stay positive, supportive, and be patient. Rome was not built in a day.
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But last week wasn't a team loss?
I agree the defense played as bad as Manziel.
Dogpound is earning it's reputation this week. Dogpiling on a rookie for his first game. How proud you all must be. Bernie was right. Just trade him off somewhere and bring in another to trash out.
You're the reasonable one Ag. I'm not saying shit-can JF and bring in someone else after one game. But the guys piling on are right- that was epically, horribly bad. Manziel looked totally lost out there- and his grand total of THREE offensive first downs (penalties don't count)- unless you want to count the one Malaluga got for laughing in Manziel's face he was playing so poorly, prove it. It was so bad, we were actually laughing at his performance during the game- and drinking heavily- as we knew the Browns playoff hopes were being flushed down the toilet.
You and a few others keep repeating this, but there is no evidence that is realistic. 1st round qbs don't get just 3 games- never have. A lot of people in here are going to be a lot of pissed off I suspect when the three qbs on the roster going into opening day next year are JF, shaw, and some 1 million dollar journeyman signed in fa(think a poor mans Jason Campbell type). That's simply the way things work.
Manziel will get a chance next year- but if he totally takes a dump on the field the last two games, don't be shocked if the Browns take another quarterback in the draft in 2015, or pick up a starter good enough to challenge him- and not Jay Cutler either. Let me refresh your memory that pre-draft, JFF was considered to not only have the highest potential- he also was thought to have the lowest floor. Pettine, Farmer, and Shanahan will have enough tape on Manziel to see if the mistakes he's making are correctable. Farmer, when he drafted Manziel- was playing with house money- it was a bonus pick he felt he could roll the dice on- but him and Pettine have zero compunction to not admit they made a mistake- as Mike has said- "it's a bottom line business"- perform, or you're gone. Just ask Ben Tate and Billy Cundiff.
Finally Taco if you don't want to believe me- this is Brian Billick's take-
"Now, Pettine and his staff face an unenviable task: They have just two games to determine whether or not to put the offense -- and likely, their jobs -- in the hands of Manziel going forward in 2015. And if not, they'll have to tell Browns fans, once again, that their answer at the quarterback position -- and consequently, the key to organizational success -- lies elsewhere, perhaps in yet another first-round pick."
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If JF does eventually fail for the browns(big if of course), Pettine is very unlikely to survive that
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If JF does eventually fail for the browns(big if of course), Pettine is very unlikely to survive that
If JF does eventually fail for the browns(big if of course), Pettine is very unlikely to survive that
man are you that fucking dumb?
pettine didn't want the guy in the first place (nor did farmer if you ask me). this was an owner pick all the way. hell, i believe pettine didn't want to start him last week. he knew he wasn't ready but the higher ups need to know if the kid can play.
is haslam going to fire himself?
doubt it!
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when i seen thread title i was expecting this
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or this
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If JF does eventually fail for the browns(big if of course), Pettine is very unlikely to survive that
man are you that fucking dumb?
pettine didn't want the guy in the first place (nor did farmer if you ask me). this was an owner pick all the way. hell, i believe pettine didn't want to start him last week. he knew he wasn't ready but the higher ups need to know if the kid can play.
is haslam going to fire himself?
doubt it!
man are you that fucking dumb?
pettine didn't want the guy in the first place (nor did farmer if you ask me). this was an owner pick all the way. hell, i believe pettine didn't want to start him last week. he knew he wasn't ready but the higher ups need to know if the kid can play.
is haslam going to fire himself?
doubt it!
If what you say is true.....no, he's not going to fire himself. He's going to displace blame.....to mike Pettine(among others).
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All I'm saying is that almost all here professed to support whomever was the QB, but he comes in and has a horrible first game and a Browns lynch mob develops overnight. I said even before that first game this was an unfair situation to place him in this late in the season. And I said he would need another great performance by the D and the O line to even give him a decent chance. No one here seems to understand either of those two concepts. Yes, JF let us and himself down, but even worse this coaching staff and team let him down in not giving him every chance to succeed.
So instead of going after ALL of them, this forum has focused on one rookie that they have shown nothing but disdain for since he joined the team.
If you don't like him and you don't want him then send him some place that gives him a chance to develop. My biggest gripe is that Pettine appeared to be doing just that until last Sunday. So a 3 game trial and off he goes into the sunset, another QB DOA in Cleveland. Who would have thought that would ever happen? Certainly not the rest of the country that already thinks Cleveland is where QB's go to die.
I guarantee you that 95% of his A&M fans saw this coming before he was ever drafted. The sentiment there was "anywhere but Cleveland". That is the reputation the Browns carry, justified or not. 21 and counting should tell you something is drastically wrong and that maybe, just maybe, Bernie is 100% spot on when he says we need to quit ruining these kids.
You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
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If JF does eventually fail for the browns(big if of course), Pettine is very unlikely to survive that
If JF does eventually fail for the browns(big if of course), Pettine is very unlikely to survive that
Ok Taco let me try and explain this in simple terms you may understand.
Mommie drives you around your 18 customer Sunday paper route ( because you only look one way before you take off running across the street). 10 papers manage to find the porch, 3 land somewhere in the yard, 1 on the roof and 2 delivered to the wrong address. (see where I'm going with this?).
The complaints start rolling into the head of the circulation department and there was much concern because he had such high expectations. He advises you that your paperboy rating for the day was 1.0 (hint: that doesn't mean," Hey Taco you're #1 ") .
He decided to let you finish the month to see if you could "deliver" on Sundays (big IF of course). If you do fail (another big IF of course) what should the newspaper owner do?
A: Fire the department head
B: Fire Taco
Slap Tacos Mom
Move the newspaper to L.A.E: All of the above
Welcome to the board Taco ! Are you related to the stockboy?
GO BROWNS !
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All I'm saying is that almost all here professed to support whomever was the QB, but he comes in and has a horrible first game and a Browns lynch mob develops overnight. I said even before that first game this was an unfair situation to place him in this late in the season. And I said he would need another great performance by the D and the O line to even give him a decent chance. No one here seems to understand either of those two concepts. Yes, JF let us and himself down, but even worse this coaching staff and team let him down in not giving him every chance to succeed.
So instead of going after ALL of them, this forum has focused on one rookie that they have shown nothing but disdain for since he joined the team.
If you don't like him and you don't want him then send him some place that gives him a chance to develop. My biggest gripe is that Pettine appeared to be doing just that until last Sunday. So a 3 game trial and off he goes into the sunset, another QB DOA in Cleveland. Who would have thought that would ever happen? Certainly not the rest of the country that already thinks Cleveland is where QB's go to die.
I guarantee you that 95% of his A&M fans saw this coming before he was ever drafted. The sentiment there was "anywhere but Cleveland". That is the reputation the Browns carry, justified or not. 21 and counting should tell you something is drastically wrong and that maybe, just maybe, Bernie is 100% spot on when he says we need to quit ruining these kids.
You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
All I'm saying is that almost all here professed to support whomever was the QB, but he comes in and has a horrible first game and a Browns lynch mob develops overnight. I said even before that first game this was an unfair situation to place him in this late in the season. And I said he would need another great performance by the D and the O line to even give him a decent chance. No one here seems to understand either of those two concepts. Yes, JF let us and himself down, but even worse this coaching staff and team let him down in not giving him every chance to succeed.
So instead of going after ALL of them, this forum has focused on one rookie that they have shown nothing but disdain for since he joined the team.
If you don't like him and you don't want him then send him some place that gives him a chance to develop. My biggest gripe is that Pettine appeared to be doing just that until last Sunday. So a 3 game trial and off he goes into the sunset, another QB DOA in Cleveland. Who would have thought that would ever happen? Certainly not the rest of the country that already thinks Cleveland is where QB's go to die.
I guarantee you that 95% of his A&M fans saw this coming before he was ever drafted. The sentiment there was "anywhere but Cleveland". That is the reputation the Browns carry, justified or not. 21 and counting should tell you something is drastically wrong and that maybe, just maybe, Bernie is 100% spot on when he says we need to quit ruining these kids.
You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
How was this an "unfair situation" to start him? When is a fair situation? First game this year? First game next year? Three years from now when he gets the playbook? The next game where we have all healthy starters available on both lines? Our starter was struggling and we needed a spark from our backup. Sorry if it was unfair to ask that of him. Let me know when it would be "fair".
Zombo
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All I'm saying is that almost all here professed to support whomever was the QB, but he comes in and has a horrible first game and a Browns lynch mob develops overnight. I said even before that first game this was an unfair situation to place him in this late in the season. And I said he would need another great performance by the D and the O line to even give him a decent chance. No one here seems to understand either of those two concepts. Yes, JF let us and himself down, but even worse this coaching staff and team let him down in not giving him every chance to succeed.
So instead of going after ALL of them, this forum has focused on one rookie that they have shown nothing but disdain for since he joined the team.
If you don't like him and you don't want him then send him some place that gives him a chance to develop. My biggest gripe is that Pettine appeared to be doing just that until last Sunday. So a 3 game trial and off he goes into the sunset, another QB DOA in Cleveland. Who would have thought that would ever happen? Certainly not the rest of the country that already thinks Cleveland is where QB's go to die.
I guarantee you that 95% of his A&M fans saw this coming before he was ever drafted. The sentiment there was "anywhere but Cleveland". That is the reputation the Browns carry, justified or not. 21 and counting should tell you something is drastically wrong and that maybe, just maybe, Bernie is 100% spot on when he says we need to quit ruining these kids.
You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
All I'm saying is that almost all here professed to support whomever was the QB, but he comes in and has a horrible first game and a Browns lynch mob develops overnight. I said even before that first game this was an unfair situation to place him in this late in the season. And I said he would need another great performance by the D and the O line to even give him a decent chance. No one here seems to understand either of those two concepts. Yes, JF let us and himself down, but even worse this coaching staff and team let him down in not giving him every chance to succeed.
So instead of going after ALL of them, this forum has focused on one rookie that they have shown nothing but disdain for since he joined the team.
First impressions are lasting impressions . The disdain for Manziel was self induced.
If you don't like him and you don't want him then send him some place that gives him a chance to develop. My biggest gripe is that Pettine appeared to be doing just that until last Sunday. So a 3 game trial and off he goes into the sunset, another QB DOA in Cleveland. Who would have thought that would ever happen? Certainly not the rest of the country that already thinks Cleveland is where QB's go to die.
Really? he left the A&M at least two years early. There is where he needed to develop. But noooooo show me da money
I guarantee you that 95% of his A&M fans saw this coming before he was ever drafted. The sentiment there was "anywhere but Cleveland". That is the reputation the Browns carry, justified or not. 21 and counting should tell you something is drastically wrong and that maybe, just maybe, Bernie is 100% spot on when he says we need to quit ruining these kids.
That's funny, that was my sentiment too.
You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
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Thanks... for a moment I thought the sun might set in the east tonite.
Edited my post...
Which last week? This last week, AKA the CIN game, or last last week, AKA the IND game.
Habit 5: Seek First to Understand, Then to Be Understood
If this week's game is Carolina, last week's game must have been Cincy.
If this week's game is Carolina, last week's game must have been Cincy.
Ah... in that case the answer is "Yes".
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Longtime lurker...
It seems as though posters are arguing against one of two extremes when in reality the majority of individuals are more moderate in their respective positions.
Certain fans seem intent on stamping out what they perceive to be the Manziel "fanboys" who unabashedly felt that success in the SEC and a catchy nickname preordained Manziel to NFL superstardom at the expense of Brian Hoyer. I find this persecution to be rather quiotic, as I cant imagine many rational fans of the Browns and/or Manziel to have expected any player, regardless of pedigree, to step onto an NFL and dominate at the quarterback position. Conversely, there are certain Manziel supporters that feel as if many fans and the Browns organization itself has somehow concocted a scheme to ostracize Johnny, never allowing him the fair chance to succeed. Again, it defies logic to believe that any coach, front office personnel, or fan would implicitly compromise their livlihood (for coaches this is quantified by winnings, for fans it is their desire to support a winner) out of spite or some unfounded machonistic need.
From my perspective, I think that most rational individuals fall somewhere in between these two extremes. Manziel supporters by and large felt that Johnny had (has) the potential to develop into a quality NFL quarterback after progressing through the learning curve that nearly every quarterback....well, ever has had to master. More reserved Browns fans are hopeful that Manziel can succeed in Cleveland and acknowledge that he has certain skills that may be exciting, but too many heralded quarterbacks have come and gone throughout the years in Cleveland for them to have untempered enthusiasm for the latest golden-boy. Unfortunately, there do exist illogical individuals on both sides that rile up these more moderate fans and stoke the flames in favor or against whichever "faction" appears to be more substantiated at that time.
What we do know is that Johnny Manziel had a brutal first start in the NFL, approaching near-historic futility. I think that most of us would also agree that, thankfully, the overwhelming majority of NFL quarterbacks also struggled in their first start so all hope is not lost, yet. Of course the next milestone that all interested parties have set their sights on is Game 3, representing the last game of this season and a three game sample for Manziel. I'd also suggest that predictive power of the three game sample has not been historically strong for quarterbacks in like situations to Manziel's.
I surveyed a sample of current starting quarterbacks in the NFL that had relatively similar circumstances with regards to their first three starting opportunities. In reviewing the context of these experiences I took into account the year in which they debuted, their debut relative to their draft year, the pedrigree or "hype" surrounding them, and their role within the offense. For example, I dont find it as useful to look at Brady/Peyton from 15 years back, or Rodgers/Romo having the benifit of sitting for multiple seasons, or even Cam Newton/Luck who were expected to throw the ball 40 times a game and have the offense run through them from the onset. There were some players such as Matt Ryan and Russell Wilson that did come out of the gate and look solid, whereas other quarterbacks such as Jake Locker were omitted because they clearly have little future in this league and would only muddle our conversation.
In any event, I noted the following players and their respective performance through the first three starts or significant playing time of their careers. In order of the best debut performances to the worst...
Player--Comp%--TD/INT--Yds
Sanchez --59%--4/2--606
Cutler --59%--6/3--592
Shaun Hill --55%--6/3--537
Roethlisb. --61%--4/3--513
Brees --60%--3/2--504
Flacco --56%--1/2--450
Stafford --53%--2/5--598
Tannehill --53%--1/4--615
Fitzpatrick--54%--1/7--467
E.Manning-42%--1/4--423
Alex Smith-54%--0/8--351
You can notice a rather steep dropoff in production from Brees (arguably irrelevant data from 2001) to Flacco and the grouping below. What is clear to me is that the relative success, or lackthereof, of each player listed in that three game sample had very little predictive power in projecting their career success going forward. In fact, you have as many Super Bowl championships (3) from that top grouping as you do from the bottom grouping, with Stafford and Flacco still relatively young.
Now to be clear, Johnny Manziel's debut was worse than any of the aforementioned quarterbacks, arguably sans Smith & Manning. In addition, certain quarterbacks listed may have struggled on the field but clearly possessed physical NFL attributes beyond that of Manziel including the size and arm strength of Flacco, Manning, and Stafford. That being said, I think there is enough empirical evidence to suggest that Johnny's NFL obituary should not necessarily be written in December of his rookie season.
So, anyway..TL;DR...I think that the two opposing extreme viewpoints of Johnny are not truly indicative of how most rational fans feel. I think anyone foolish enough to suggest that Manziel could step onto an NFL field as a rookie and dominate should be taken as just that...a fool. I hope that folks can be a bit more forward thinking to realize that while Manziel was horrible in his NFL debut, there have been precadents set in which quarterbacks mastered the NFL learning curve after humbling rookie experiences.
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Dogpound is earning it's reputation this week. Dogpiling on a rookie for his first game. How proud you all must be. Bernie was right. Just trade him off somewhere and bring in another to trash out.
@junkyard-dawg said:
Double post.
FYI... there's a delete button...
Dogpound is earning it's reputation this week. Dogpiling on a rookie for his first game. How proud you all must be. Bernie was right. Just trade him off somewhere and bring in another to trash out.
And AG has entered phase 2, "Anger". Ever, when last seen was still in phase 1, "Denial and Isolation".
http://psychcentral.com/lib/the-5-stages-of-loss-and-grief/000617
Ag, I hope JM's skin is thicker than yours.
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All I'm saying is that almost all here professed to support whomever was the QB, but he comes in and has a horrible first game and a Browns lynch mob develops overnight. I said even before that first game this was an unfair situation to place him in this late in the season. And I said he would need another great performance by the D and the O line to even give him a decent chance. No one here seems to understand either of those two concepts. Yes, JF let us and himself down, but even worse this coaching staff and team let him down in not giving him every chance to succeed.
So instead of going after ALL of them, this forum has focused on one rookie that they have shown nothing but disdain for since he joined the team.
If you don't like him and you don't want him then send him some place that gives him a chance to develop. My biggest gripe is that Pettine appeared to be doing just that until last Sunday. So a 3 game trial and off he goes into the sunset, another QB DOA in Cleveland. Who would have thought that would ever happen? Certainly not the rest of the country that already thinks Cleveland is where QB's go to die.
I guarantee you that 95% of his A&M fans saw this coming before he was ever drafted. The sentiment there was "anywhere but Cleveland". That is the reputation the Browns carry, justified or not. 21 and counting should tell you something is drastically wrong and that maybe, just maybe, Bernie is 100% spot on when he says we need to quit ruining these kids.
You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
Damn near all of us were in agreement that it was time to see what Manziel had and for him to start. We saw enough of a spark in the Buffalo game to be excited about what he could bring to the table. We had been listening to all of these A&M honks (not necessarily you, but numerous other) telling us all season that the team would have won more games if only Johnny football was the QB.
He got his chance in the spotlight and took a giant shit in the middle of the field with the spotlight shining down on him. The problem this week has been the "fanboys" and the excuses and saying the most idiotic things like "he will get 200 starts for the Browns" and he's clearly the starter next year no matter what happens the rest of the season. It's the homos who are really only here because Manziel got drafted by the Browns that are making a lot of the people on this board hate the kid. I think all of understand that it's better for the Browns long term if Manziel is the answer at QB. Just like we hoped that Hoyer was the answer at QB. Just like we hoped that Weeden was the answer and McCoy and Delhomme and well..you get the picture.
He plays 2 more games like he did this past Sunday, he's not guaranteed shit for next season, even being in the league. There were plenty of analysts and scouts predraft saying that he didn't have what it takes in the NFL. There were plenty who also said he would be a superstar like Russell Wilson. The jury is still out but it certainly doesn't look very promising right now after the first game.
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You want me to be objective. Then it's time you look in the mirror and try exactly the same.
Damn near all of us were in agreement that it was time to see what Manziel had and for him to start. We saw enough of a spark in the Buffalo game to be excited about what he could bring to the table. We had been listening to all of these A&M honks (not necessarily you, but numerous other) telling us all season that the team would have won more games if only Johnny football was the QB.
He got his chance in the spotlight and took a giant shit in the middle of the field with the spotlight shining down on him. The problem this week has been the "fanboys" and the excuses and saying the most idiotic things like "he will get 200 starts for the Browns" and he's clearly the starter next year no matter what happens the rest of the season. It's the homos who are really only here because Manziel got drafted by the Browns that are making a lot of the people on this board hate the kid. I think all of understand that it's better for the Browns long term if Manziel is the answer at QB. Just like we hoped that Hoyer was the answer at QB. Just like we hoped that Weeden was the answer and McCoy and Delhomme and well..you get the picture.
He plays 2 more games like he did this past Sunday, he's not guaranteed shit for next season, even being in the league. There were plenty of analysts and scouts predraft saying that he didn't have what it takes in the NFL. There were plenty who also said he would be a superstar like Russell Wilson. The jury is still out but it certainly doesn't look very promising right now after the first game.
Damn near all of us were in agreement that it was time to see what Manziel had and for him to start. We saw enough of a spark in the Buffalo game to be excited about what he could bring to the table. We had been listening to all of these A&M honks (not necessarily you, but numerous other) telling us all season that the team would have won more games if only Johnny football was the QB.
He got his chance in the spotlight and took a giant shit in the middle of the field with the spotlight shining down on him. The problem this week has been the "fanboys" and the excuses and saying the most idiotic things like "he will get 200 starts for the Browns" and he's clearly the starter next year no matter what happens the rest of the season. It's the homos who are really only here because Manziel got drafted by the Browns that are making a lot of the people on this board hate the kid. I think all of understand that it's better for the Browns long term if Manziel is the answer at QB. Just like we hoped that Hoyer was the answer at QB. Just like we hoped that Weeden was the answer and McCoy and Delhomme and well..you get the picture.
He plays 2 more games like he did this past Sunday, he's not guaranteed shit for next season, even being in the league. There were plenty of analysts and scouts predraft saying that he didn't have what it takes in the NFL. There were plenty who also said he would be a superstar like Russell Wilson. The jury is still out but it certainly doesn't look very promising right now after the first game.
^yep.
AND imagine if the browns would have named him starter at the begining of the year. i doubt half of you manziel supporters would even still be around.
it's obvious the coaches knew all along the kid wasn't up to speed in all areas of being a NFL qb at this time BUT the suckage of hoyer prompted a change and the change was start the backup. well it looked last sunday as if the backup was overwhelmed by everything.
and don't give us this sad sack shit about picking on manziel. we blast any player that sucks. could be for one game, could be for the season. go back in time and read what was posted about weeden, about mccoy....i think the fans here can sniff out QB stink better than any other NFL fans because we've seen the worst of the worst. manziel sucked ass last week. let's see if he can pull it together against carolina. sorry to all you AGGIE fans but i highly doubt, AT THIS TIME, this kid will look even close to be a starter for any NFL team in the next 2 games. and it'll be a miracle if he doesn't get hurt because he looked like a little kid in a game of giants.
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