Jonathan Paul Manziel
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Meh, I don't know. I'm okay with a non-mobile QB pocket passer if he is good enough. Peyton Manning isn't mobile, and I heard somewhere that he's not bad. For those of you who might be tempted and silly enough to say that Wilson beat Manning in the Superbowl, be honest with yourselves now, Russell Wilson being a better QB than Peyton Manning is not how the Seahawks won the Superbowl. If you don't agree that Manning is a better QB than Wilson, then we can't talk anymore.
The logical arguers (TCPO, prolly, for instance) will argue that mobile QBs who can play are a lot more plentiful than the universe's Peyton Mannings. And I completely agree. I'm just saying that I wouldn't turn my nose up at a really great pocket passer just because he's not mobile.
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Meh, I don't know. I'm okay with a non-mobile QB pocket passer if he is good enough. Peyton Manning isn't mobile, and I heard somewhere that he's not bad. For those of you who might be tempted and silly enough to say that Wilson beat Manning in the Superbowl, be honest with yourselves now, Russell Wilson being a better QB than Peyton Manning is not how the Seahawks won the Superbowl. If you don't agree that Manning is a better QB than Wilson, then we can't talk anymore.
The logical arguers (TCPO, prolly, for instance) will argue that mobile QBs who can play are a lot more plentiful than the universe's Peyton Mannings. And I completely agree. I'm just saying that I wouldn't turn my nose up at a really great pocket passer just because he's not mobile.
Meh, I don't know. I'm okay with a non-mobile QB pocket passer if he is good enough. Peyton Manning isn't mobile, and I heard somewhere that he's not bad. For those of you who might be tempted and silly enough to say that Wilson beat Manning in the Superbowl, be honest with yourselves now, Russell Wilson being a better QB than Peyton Manning is not how the Seahawks won the Superbowl. If you don't agree that Manning is a better QB than Wilson, then we can't talk anymore.
The logical arguers (TCPO, prolly, for instance) will argue that mobile QBs who can play are a lot more plentiful than the universe's Peyton Mannings. And I completely agree. I'm just saying that I wouldn't turn my nose up at a really great pocket passer just because he's not mobile.
I wouldn't, either. Problem is, they are few and far between. Honestly, of all the greatest "pocket passers" to play the game throughout history, I think Manning is the only one who could not only survive, but thrive, in today's NFL.
They say "if you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough". Well, in this case, I think "if you're gonna be immobile, you gotta be smart". Manning has survived for as long and played as well as he has because he thoroughly understands his opponent. He doesn't need to rely on his mobility to wait for plays to break down, because he's winning 75% of plays by design through audibles, blocking shifts and formation tweaks.
Personally, I don't see a quarterback in this draft with half of the football acumen as Manning. I haven't seen one in the last 10 drafts, to be honest.
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I agree, and it might be partially because the system (from grade school up?) isn't cultivating that sort of QB anymore. A vicious circle has begun. Pocket passers have fallen out of favor. As such, the best throwers aren't being taught to be pocket passers, and kids who aren't terribly mobile aren't being developed as rigorously as the kids who are. As such, pocket passers in general are not as good. And, since they are not as good, they continue to not be favored.
That's not to say that there are a lot of potential Peyton Mannings out there who aren't getting opportunities or being developed because they aren't mobile. There aren't. Peyton is special. But, it might explain why were not seeing as many pocket passers as we used to or why when we do see them, they don't seem as competitive as they used to.
I don't think that TCPO is probably guilty of this, but I think in general we need to be wary of being so enamored with mobility that we allow it to devalue throwing ability too much. Tebow, Vince Young, etc. were examples of this. When they entered the league, people said, "Okay, so they don't throw that well, but we can work that out with some training. Look how mobile they are, though." Ideally, of course, you'd like a QB who is mobile but who is also a really great passer.
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I agree, and it might be partially because the system (from grade school up?) isn't cultivating that sort of QB anymore. A vicious circle has begun. Pocket passers have fallen out of favor. As such, the best throwers aren't being taught to be pocket passers, and kids who aren't terribly mobile aren't being developed as rigorously as the kids who are. As such, pocket passers in general are not as good. And, since they are not as good, they continue to not be favored.
That's not to say that there are a lot of potential Peyton Mannings out there who aren't getting opportunities or being developed because they aren't mobile. There aren't. Peyton is special. But, it might explain why were not seeing as many pocket passers as we used to or why when we do see them, they don't seem as competitive as they used to.
I don't think that TCPO is probably guilty of this, but I think in general we need to be wary of being so enamored with mobility that we allow it to devalue throwing ability too much. Tebow, Vince Young, etc. were examples of this. When they entered the league, people said, "Okay, so they don't throw that well, but we can work that out with some training. Look how mobile they are, though." Ideally, of course, you'd like a QB who is mobile but who is also a really great passer.
I agree, and it might be partially because the system (from grade school up?) isn't cultivating that sort of QB anymore. A vicious circle has begun. Pocket passers have fallen out of favor. As such, the best throwers aren't being taught to be pocket passers, and kids who aren't terribly mobile aren't being developed as rigorously as the kids who are. As such, pocket passers in general are not as good. And, since they are not as good, they continue to not be favored.
That's not to say that there are a lot of potential Peyton Mannings out there who aren't getting opportunities or being developed because they aren't mobile. There aren't. Peyton is special. But, it might explain why were not seeing as many pocket passers as we used to or why when we do see them, they don't seem as competitive as they used to.
That's my feeling as well.
I think a lot has to do with the fact that a dual threat QB is just that, a dual threat. It's one more thing the defense has to gameplan for, so that more practice time spent on containing the QB and less time spent on perfecting other nuances of the defense.
The smartest QB in the world can't beat a perfect defensive play. He can't think the ball to his receiver's hands if he's perfectly covered. So, even though Peyton is one of the greatest to play the game, there is a ceiling on his smarts.
In high school, better talent almost always wins. In college, better talent normally wins.
In the pros, it's all about game planning.
That's why high school coaches err toward developing those dual threat guys instead of the pocket passers.
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Yeah, if you can get a real dual-threat guy (who is good at both), that's optimal. I'd put my preference list like this:
1. Guy who can do both.
2. Guy who can pass but can't run.
3. Guy who can run but can't pass.
For this reason, if I'm shooting for #1 (or if a real #1 isn't available), I'm more comfortable erring on the side of #2 than #3.
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Lol. In that case,... A guy who can score TDs and win games.
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IOW Bill Brasky.
WSS
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BILL BRASKY
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A WR's job is to bail the QB out when needed. Just sayin'.
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@mike-h said:
Tarkenton is too small at 6'0, 190lbs, there's no way he lasts 18 years and barely misses a start in the NFL. His style of scrambling is reckless, he needs to learn how to slide and play in the pocket better.
it a shame that so many people here are so quick to pass on this guy.The guy will be very comparable to Tark...here or somewhere else...
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...
After all of the debating, I've come to this conclusion:
I want the Browns to pick fourth.
If the first three picks are all quarterbacks, then GREAT. I'll take Sammy Watkins or Jade Clowney (!). Pick up a potential QB later in the draft and ride Hoyer for another year and see what happens.
But if Manziel is available: You do NOT pass on him. It's a risk (yes!), but BOOM potential is precisely what this team requires.
Think of it this way... If the Browns pass on Manziel and he becomes a superstar, then it's a big miss for a club that can ill afford it. If the Browns TAKE Manziel and he busts - it was a risk that didn't pay off, but they likely managed some solid picks in the rest of the draft to build off of and there's plenty of opportunity to take another swing in future drafts.
If they trade UP and Manziel busts... It cost them THAT pick and likely two others. Too big of a mistake to risk it. Stay at four and let the player come to them.
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After all of the debating, I've come to this conclusion:
I want the Browns to pick fourth.
If the first three picks are all quarterbacks, then GREAT. I'll take Sammy Watkins or Jade Clowney (!). Pick up a potential QB later in the draft and ride Hoyer for another year and see what happens.
But if Manziel is available: You do NOT pass on him. It's a risk (yes!), but BOOM potential is precisely what this team requires.
Think of it this way... If the Browns pass on Manziel and he becomes a superstar, then it's a big miss for a club that can ill afford it. If the Browns TAKE Manziel and he busts - it was a risk that didn't pay off, but they likely managed some solid picks in the rest of the draft to build off of and there's plenty of opportunity to take another swing in future drafts.
If they trade UP and Manziel busts... It cost them THAT pick and likely two others. Too big of a mistake to risk it. Stay at four and let the player come to them.
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After all of the debating, I've come to this conclusion:
I want the Browns to pick fourth.
So do I..
Think of it this way... If the Browns pass on Manziel and he becomes a superstar, then it's a big miss for a club that can ill afford it. If the Browns TAKE Manziel and he busts - it was a risk that didn't pay off, but they likely managed some solid picks in the rest of the draft to build off of and there's plenty of opportunity to take another swing in future drafts.
If they trade UP and Manziel busts... It cost them THAT pick and likely two others. Too big of a mistake to risk it. Stay at four and let the player come to them.
Crap- The Browns passed on Ladanian Tomlinson, Ben Rothlisberger, and Aaron Rodgers. I'm not going to lose sleep if they pass on Johnny Football.
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@mike-h said:
Tarkenton is too small at 6'0, 190lbs, there's no way he lasts 18 years and barely misses a start in the NFL. His style of scrambling is reckless, he needs to learn how to slide and play in the pocket better.
it a shame that so many people here are so quick to pass on this guy.The guy will be very comparable to Tark...here or somewhere else...
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Mike H.
Just because my thinking is inconsistent with yours you think my thinking is insane. Hahaha right.
What's wrong with givin' WRs some love? It's not like QBs are perfect in their throws regardless of how sexy that sounds from sports casters...and you evidently.
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I think he was being sarcastic.
I was being 100% serious
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No it isn't. A wide receiver who runs his routes accurately extends to catch the ball and doesn't drop the son of a bitch makes a quarterback look a lot better. If he doesn't he makes the quarterback look like a chump. But yes, kindergarten logic aside, it's always best to have both positions playing well.@mike-h said:
That's insane.
WSS
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@mike-h said:
Tarkenton is too small at 6'0, 190lbs, there's no way he lasts 18 years and barely misses a start in the NFL. His style of scrambling is reckless, he needs to learn how to slide and play in the pocket better.
a third round pick who lost three superbowls, two blowouts.
got traded from the team that drafted him because his coach didn't like his 'scrambling around' routine.
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