Jonathan Paul Manziel

Tacosman

curious- how many of you guys actually watched mcclown play last year? He played 80% or so of the season, and he was terrible. Atrocious. Unfortunately, as bad as he was it wasn't that far below his typical performance all throughout his career(in 11/12 seasons). Why is this year going to be any different?

I don't have anything against the guy....he is what he is. I also don't have anything against colt McCoy, weeden, Jason Campbell, etc.....I'm actually defending the guy, because when he plays for us EXACTLY LIKE HE HAS DONE IN >90% OF HIS CAREER, I'm going to be the one saying "why are you down on the guy? He's playing as well as he has the vast majority of his career".

Mike H

@tacosman said:

curious- how many of you guys actually watched mcclown play last year? He played 80% or so of the season, and he was terrible. Atrocious. Unfortunately, as bad as he was it wasn't that far below his typical performance all throughout his career(in 11/12 seasons). Why is this year going to be any different?

I don't have anything against the guy....he is what he is. I also don't have anything against colt McCoy, weeden, Jason Campbell, etc.....I'm actually defending the guy, because when he plays for us EXACTLY LIKE HE HAS DONE IN >90% OF HIS CAREER, I'm going to be the one saying "why are you down on the guy? He's playing as well as he has the vast majority of his career".

He's a placeholder QB, much like Hoyer. I really enjoy his approach, and his game isn't that bad as long as his pocket doesn't collapse quickly. That shouldn't be even nearly as big a problem as it has been in the past for him -- Tampa and Chicago both had really poor pass-blocking lines when he played in both places. I don't think anyone has any delusions that McCown is going to become an All Pro, well other than Dwayne Bowe.

The veteran receiver, in his first season with the team, dropped an A-bomb of positivity on Friday, starting with signal-caller Josh McCown. "He's showing all the potential of being a top-five quarterback in the NFL," Bowe said of the 36-year-old passer, per The Plain Dealer

hoorta

@walterwhite said:

Josh McCown is nothing more than Jake Delhomme or Trent Dilfer. He's a washed up journeyman.

Manziel needs to sit and learn the NFL for one more year.

By the way, it would be nice to see him get some reps with the first team in a meaningless game.

Josh McCown is an absolute fuckin bore

@tacosman said:

curious- how many of you guys actually watched mcclown play last year? He played 80% or so of the season, and he was terrible. Atrocious. Unfortunately, as bad as he was it wasn't that far below his typical performance all throughout his career(in 11/12 seasons). Why is this year going to be any different?

I don't have anything against the guy....he is what he is. I also don't have anything against colt McCoy, weeden, Jason Campbell, etc.....I'm actually defending the guy, because when he plays for us EXACTLY LIKE HE HAS DONE IN >90% OF HIS CAREER, I'm going to be the one saying "why are you down on the guy? He's playing as well as he has the vast majority of his career".

If you toss out his one aberration year in Chicago- McCown is a low 70s qbr quarterback. I'm not expecting him to recapture the magic.

DieHardBrownsFan

@hoorta said:

If you toss out his one aberration year in Chicago- McCown is a low 70s qbr quarterback. I'm not expecting him to recapture the magic.

Yep.

gumby73

@tacosman said:

curious- how many of you guys actually watched mcclown play last year? He played 80% or so of the season, and he was terrible. Atrocious. Unfortunately, as bad as he was it wasn't that far below his typical performance all throughout his career(in 11/12 seasons). Why is this year going to be any different?

I don't have anything against the guy....he is what he is. I also don't have anything against colt McCoy, weeden, Jason Campbell, etc.....I'm actually defending the guy, because when he plays for us EXACTLY LIKE HE HAS DONE IN >90% OF HIS CAREER, I'm going to be the one saying "why are you down on the guy? He's playing as well as he has the vast majority of his career".

curious my ass. you would look great in a Josh jersey as we all know you have been bashing Josh all over this thread many times. None of us know what good protection may mean to Josh but this I do know. Josh was brought in to be a mentor to a messed up rookie QB that Hoyer wanted no part of and at his career I don't blame him. JM was in rehab getting his life back first. What you see now on JM on the football field is not taught in rehab. Now you tell us what Josh McCLOWN in your words is doing here?

Get over yourself on Josh when he was brought in, Hoyer was a FA (done here $) and our possible starting QB was in rehab. That's a pretty good story where we are at right now with both QB's..

Flugel

@tour2ma said:
Agree... Maybe it was Gruden that said, "NFL 2nd teams slow down just enough to make QBs comfortable."

Garner, Parmalee, Mayle, Jennings, Wynn, and Olsen aren't second string though. Gruden actually made it a point to say Buffalo was blitzing Manziel on almost every play at 1 point. It's often said NFL offenses are behind the defenses in training camp and early on in preseason. Now let's factor in how much easier it is to play fast when the only thing you have to think about is sic em.

Furthermore, many of the offensive guys trying to make this roster from the 3rd and 4th strings include many undrafted rookies. They not only had to know our playbook but they also had to recognize the defense and adjust appropriately whether it's a RB like Parmalee picking up a blitz to protect his QB or knowing how to get open to be useful. WRs also have to know how to adjust their routes accordingly and be on the same page with their 22 year old QB. In spite of how much room for error we had - there was actually evidence of 3rd and 4th string WRs being on the same page with Manziel. Jennings and Wynn made some plays while Mayle exhibited a little stage fright.

To me, this looked better than it did last year with Manziel in there. Connor Shaw was more studious last preseason so he seemed to be where Manziel is this year - pleasantly surprising people.

Flugel

@hoorta said:

If you toss out his one aberration year in Chicago- McCown is a low 70s qbr quarterback. I'm not expecting him to recapture the magic.

Larry, you're saying the Josh McCown who earned a 107 passer rating was an aberration when you know Cutler struggled with the exact same teammates? Or, is it possible he finally enjoyed having an offensive line that could protect him on 3rd and short (caused by a good running game) vrs one that could not protect him in Tampa on 3rd and long (caused by the 31st ranked running game)? Mike Pettine addressed this massive difference of environments saying he feels our setup is more like the one he had in Chicago.

That's like telling Houston they need to count on this version of Brian Hoyer rather than the one that came from Cleveland:

2012 Arizona 2 GP 30 CMP 53 ATT 56.6 CMP% 330 YDS 6.23 AVG 1 TD 53 LNG 2 INT 1 FUM 30.5 QBR 65.8 RAT

2 completely different setups getting 2 different outcomes.

wargograw

@roycerolls said:

I certainly want to see Manziel succeed and am happy that he is committing himself but like I said: we know he is good against college level players, and at tamu he played WITH lot of college level players. He had Mike Evans but most of the guys who played offense with Manziel are nowhere near an NFL roster. Mccown was being pressured by guys like Mario Williams and Marcell Dareus, Johnny was being pressured by guys that will be working as bouncers in the flats this September.

Not saying John Manziel can't be a franchise guy, I'm saying he needs to show it to me while playing real football games against real NFL players.

Not that I don't like the general spirit of your post, the 2012 team had 4 OL that got drafted and the 5th started several games at Center for Seattle right now (showing enough to make them comfortable enough to trade the Pro Bowler ahead of him). There was a 3rd rounder (in the 2013 draft not a later one) at RB who wasn't even the starter. Swope and Evans.

Aren't NFL 2nd and 3rd teams full of rookies that weren't good enough to get drafted? As opposed to LSU and Alabama where the entire defense gets drafted? I'm not trying to talk smack or be provocative here, those are just facts.

I don't even really know what yall are arguing about, just clarifying some of the premises.

TexasAg1969

It's always been clear to me that staff has said from the beginning that McCown is a bridge QB brought in as a pro tutor while they find out exactly what #2 can do over the next couple of years. I suspect JM is showing enough progress that before this season is over they will likely throw him into the fire and see exactly what they have over a longer period of time. They also brought other staff in to do exactly the same thing. JM so far is responding like the pro we all want him to be, devoid of all the off field issues that cloud the picture. They are developing the O for exactly that purpose as they begin to see the young man is serious about being the player they wanted all along. As I've said since he went to rehab and then extended the stay, there is Hope in Cleveland. Had he not taken that step I would have been the first to say look elsewhere.

Personally I hope McCown takes us to a lot of wins while making JM a quality QB replacement like Rogers after Farve. That would be ideal.

Flugel

@texasag1969 said:

It's always been clear to me that staff has said from the beginning that McCown is a bridge QB brought in as a pro tutor while they find out exactly what #2 can do over the next couple of years. I suspect JM is showing enough progress that before this season is over they will likely throw him into the fire and see exactly what they have over a longer period of time. They also brought other staff in to do exactly the same thing. JM so far is responding like the pro we all want him to be, devoid of all the off field issues that cloud the picture. They are developing the O for exactly that purpose as they begin to see the young man is serious about being the player they wanted all along. As I've said since he went to rehab and then extended the stay, there is Hope in Cleveland. Had he not taken that step I would have been the first to say look elsewhere.

Personally I hope McCown takes us to a lot of wins while making JM a quality QB replacement like Rogers after Farve. That would be ideal.

I think I began by saying somewhere why put a timeline on it all? The QB position will play itself out. In the meantime, it's encouraging to see progress from Manziel. Did anyone on the planet anticipate the time was right for a 29 year old former grocery bagging Kurt Warner to QB a franchise coming off 5-11 football to the Superbowl with elite passer ratings? No, but additions like Marshall Faulk and Torry Holt didn't hurt while Isaac Bruce suddenly had 2 healthy hamstrings and groins that same year all the planets were aligning for St Louis.

Tacosman

an 8 game stretch in Chicago 2 years ago? wtf??? That might be something to look at as meaningful if:

1) He weren't like 36 years old and had 12+ years of OTHER play. half a season vs his whole decade+ long career? Hmmmm.....

2) He didn't blow goats for a whole season(not half a season) more recently.

There is no doubt that Mccown played better 2 years ago in half a season than he ever did. There is also absolutely no reason to expect that miniscule fraction of his career to duplicate itself. Not that it matters(since its such a small fraction of his career anyways), but that qb rating was extremely dubious for Chicago anyways. For starters, its not like his record was all that good, even there. Lots of garbage time yards and stats accumulated(in both wins and losses). Additionally, he had two beast 6'5 recievers that were actually healthy (which they rarely are it seems) whose huge tall frames caught a ridiculous number of jump balls.....we obviously don't have two recievers like that.

But even if Mccown was the real deal during that half a season stretch and his qbr actually reflected the quality of his play then(it doesn't....he wasn't nearly as good as the numbers indicate in a meaningful way), it doesn't matter because its such a small sample size in a long career and we have more recent data(and more of it) that confirms just how bad he is.

Mccown is not an 'average' starter. He's at the very very very bottom of starters. Somewhere between 28 and 32.

hoorta

@flugel said:

Larry, you're saying the Josh McCown who earned a 107 passer rating was an aberration when you know Cutler struggled with the exact same teammates? Or, is it possible he finally enjoyed having an offensive line that could protect him on 3rd and short (caused by a good running game) vrs one that could not protect him in Tampa on 3rd and long (caused by the 31st ranked running game)? Mike Pettine addressed this massive difference of environments saying he feels our setup is more like the one he had in Chicago.

That's like telling Houston they need to count on this version of Brian Hoyer rather than the one that came from Cleveland:

2012 Arizona 2 GP 30 CMP 53 ATT 56.6 CMP% 330 YDS 6.23 AVG 1 TD 53 LNG 2 INT 1 FUM 30.5 QBR 65.8 RAT

2 completely different setups getting 2 different outcomes.

I say this Tom: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McCoJo01.htm

49 starts in 12 years in the league. 61\59 td- int, 76 career qbr. So if you want to tell me the exception proves the rule- be my guest. Journeyman mentor to JF, nothing more. If he was anything better than that- he'd have more than an average of 4 starts a year. Not realistic to expect him to pull a 109 qbr out of his 36 year old ass. Pettine is wishin' and a hopein'.

@tacosman said:

an 8 game stretch in Chicago 2 years ago? wtf??? That might be something to look at as meaningful if:

1) He weren't like 36 years old and had 12+ years of OTHER play. half a season vs his whole decade+ long career? Hmmmm.....

2) He didn't blow goats for a whole season(not half a season) more recently.

There is no doubt that Mccown played better 2 years ago in half a season than he ever did. There is also absolutely no reason to expect that miniscule fraction of his career to duplicate itself. Not that it matters(since its such a small fraction of his career anyways), but that qb rating was extremely dubious for Chicago anyways. For starters, its not like his record was all that good, even there. Lots of garbage time yards and stats accumulated(in both wins and losses). Additionally, he had two beast 6'5 recievers that were actually healthy (which they rarely are it seems) whose huge tall frames caught a ridiculous number of jump balls.....we obviously don't have two recievers like that.

But even if Mccown was the real deal during that half a season stretch and his qbr actually reflected the quality of his play then(it doesn't....he wasn't nearly as good as the numbers indicate in a meaningful way), it doesn't matter because its such a small sample size in a long career and we have more recent data(and more of it) that confirms just how bad he is.

Mccown is not an 'average' starter. He's at the very very very bottom of starters. Somewhere between 28 and 32.

Be generous- maybe 25 or so.

Mike H

@hoorta said:

I say this Tom: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McCoJo01.htm

49 starts in 12 years in the league. 61\59 td- int, 76 career qbr. So if you want to tell me the exception proves the rule- be my guest. Journeyman mentor to JF, nothing more. If he was anything better than that- he'd have more than an average of 4 starts a year. Not realistic to expect him to pull a 109 qbr out of his 36 year old ass. Pettine is wishin' and a hopein'.

Be generous- maybe 25 or so.

This is the one and only time I'll say this -- McCown is no better/worse than Hoyer. They're both below average players who can flash at times, but eventually come back down to mean. Why are people here/everywhere dismissing him, but were clinging onto Hoyer last year at this time? Is it the hometown thing, or was it the small sample size that made people want to believe Hoyer was better?

miktoxic

budlight QBs in a champagne league.

got it you fucking Retard queer.

Unsympathetic

During the time McCown played for them, Chicago's OL was average, Tampa's was terrible.. ours is second-best in the league [behind Dallas].

Get over yourself, taco: McCown will be decent to good here.. because of the OL and running game.

Flugel

@hoorta said:

I say this Tom: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McCoJo01.htm

49 starts in 12 years in the league. 61\59 td- int, 76 career qbr. So if you want to tell me the exception proves the rule- be my guest. Journeyman mentor to JF, nothing more. If he was anything better than that- he'd have more than an average of 4 starts a year. Not realistic to expect him to pull a 109 qbr out of his 36 year old ass. Pettine is wishin' and a hopein'.

Be generous- maybe 25 or so.

I think Pettine understands Chicago's offense was the only team that surrounded him with first string players when they played against first string players. I can't help you if you didn't look at who McCown played for what what their running games averaged before Chicago or in Tampa.

There's Steve Young in Tampa and Steve Young in SF - if you only look at numbers you chase yourself away from understanding why there's a drastic difference. For that matter if you look at Troy Aikman's first team in Dallas vrs the one frequenting Superbowls - he had less concussions, an All time leading rusher, great line, and fans inexplicably stopped badgering Jimmy Johnson about why Steve Walsh wasn't starting over the bum. Some QBs just play on crappy teams which seems pertinent to bring up in a discussion stressing QB performances via first string against first string. Tampa never surrounded QBs with many first string players very often, which is why Doug Williams, Vinny Testaverde and Steve Young all had to leave before finding. Meanwhile, it didn't matter if Steve Young, Steve Bono, Jeff Garcia or Joe Montana was QBing in SF - they just kept winning.

There's also Joe Theisman, Warren Moon, Jeff Garcia and Kurt Warner playing Pro Football in other Countries at younger ages. Then there's the ones that came to the NFL and frequented playoffs and Pro Bowls at later ages on good NFL teams. That said, when Garcia played for Detroit he blended in with stink and he fagged out in Cleveland. On the other hand, he led Philly, Tampa and SF to playoffs (while making Pro Bowls). Look at the teammates while you look at the stats and it helps Larry.

DieHardBrownsFan

@flugel said:
Agreed. Let's get this back on track here.

JAFBF

@mike-h said:

Manziel aggravated his throwing arm again today. Watched him hit Lenz on a deep pass and he walked off the field with his head down.

Steve Doerschuk said he'll sit Monday and Tuesday to rest, practice Weds/Thurs and play Sat.

Yeah just heard that.

So . . .

McCown has a sore hand

Manziel has an issue with his elbow (strained?)

Shaw's out with thumb surgery

Leaves us with Thad Lewis or possibly Pryor waiting in the wings.

Not a cheerful outlook to start the Season.

Mudfly

@jafbf said:

McCown has a sore hand

Manziel has an issue with his elbow (strained?)

Shaw's out with thumb surgery

Leaves us with Thad Lewis or possibly Pryor waiting in the wings.

Not a cheerful outlook to start the Season.

I agree.....it's not a cheerful outlook .....considering both McCown and Manziel are fine(just sore) and will practice and play this week.....

...the gloom and doom parade already has us down to the 4th and 5th stringer cause a couple of guys are sore? ....sheesh....

Arent you the same guy that told us Shelton was out for the season with a knee injury just a couple of weeks ago?......

tiamat63

I will get flamed for this, however I feel Hoyer would have been the best intermediate answer for the next 2-4 years. Sadly there was no deal or extension. While I believe McCown will suffice ok for certain things, I do not believe he handles pressure like Brian.

Now McCown may be more willing to impart his knowledge upon young Johnny, however that's the front office hinging their hopes he may yet become a complete QB. I will also say, I don't believe that day will come. Should the Browns happen to have one of the top 3 QB's in next class available to them when our pick is up - Im certain they would do just that.