Jonathan Paul Manziel
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It's always been clear to me that staff has said from the beginning that McCown is a bridge QB brought in as a pro tutor while they find out exactly what #2 can do over the next couple of years. I suspect JM is showing enough progress that before this season is over they will likely throw him into the fire and see exactly what they have over a longer period of time. They also brought other staff in to do exactly the same thing. JM so far is responding like the pro we all want him to be, devoid of all the off field issues that cloud the picture. They are developing the O for exactly that purpose as they begin to see the young man is serious about being the player they wanted all along. As I've said since he went to rehab and then extended the stay, there is Hope in Cleveland. Had he not taken that step I would have been the first to say look elsewhere.
Personally I hope McCown takes us to a lot of wins while making JM a quality QB replacement like Rogers after Farve. That would be ideal.
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It's always been clear to me that staff has said from the beginning that McCown is a bridge QB brought in as a pro tutor while they find out exactly what #2 can do over the next couple of years. I suspect JM is showing enough progress that before this season is over they will likely throw him into the fire and see exactly what they have over a longer period of time. They also brought other staff in to do exactly the same thing. JM so far is responding like the pro we all want him to be, devoid of all the off field issues that cloud the picture. They are developing the O for exactly that purpose as they begin to see the young man is serious about being the player they wanted all along. As I've said since he went to rehab and then extended the stay, there is Hope in Cleveland. Had he not taken that step I would have been the first to say look elsewhere.
Personally I hope McCown takes us to a lot of wins while making JM a quality QB replacement like Rogers after Farve. That would be ideal.
It's always been clear to me that staff has said from the beginning that McCown is a bridge QB brought in as a pro tutor while they find out exactly what #2 can do over the next couple of years. I suspect JM is showing enough progress that before this season is over they will likely throw him into the fire and see exactly what they have over a longer period of time. They also brought other staff in to do exactly the same thing. JM so far is responding like the pro we all want him to be, devoid of all the off field issues that cloud the picture. They are developing the O for exactly that purpose as they begin to see the young man is serious about being the player they wanted all along. As I've said since he went to rehab and then extended the stay, there is Hope in Cleveland. Had he not taken that step I would have been the first to say look elsewhere.
Personally I hope McCown takes us to a lot of wins while making JM a quality QB replacement like Rogers after Farve. That would be ideal.
I think I began by saying somewhere why put a timeline on it all? The QB position will play itself out. In the meantime, it's encouraging to see progress from Manziel. Did anyone on the planet anticipate the time was right for a 29 year old former grocery bagging Kurt Warner to QB a franchise coming off 5-11 football to the Superbowl with elite passer ratings? No, but additions like Marshall Faulk and Torry Holt didn't hurt while Isaac Bruce suddenly had 2 healthy hamstrings and groins that same year all the planets were aligning for St Louis.
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an 8 game stretch in Chicago 2 years ago? wtf??? That might be something to look at as meaningful if:
1) He weren't like 36 years old and had 12+ years of OTHER play. half a season vs his whole decade+ long career? Hmmmm.....
2) He didn't blow goats for a whole season(not half a season) more recently.
There is no doubt that Mccown played better 2 years ago in half a season than he ever did. There is also absolutely no reason to expect that miniscule fraction of his career to duplicate itself. Not that it matters(since its such a small fraction of his career anyways), but that qb rating was extremely dubious for Chicago anyways. For starters, its not like his record was all that good, even there. Lots of garbage time yards and stats accumulated(in both wins and losses). Additionally, he had two beast 6'5 recievers that were actually healthy (which they rarely are it seems) whose huge tall frames caught a ridiculous number of jump balls.....we obviously don't have two recievers like that.
But even if Mccown was the real deal during that half a season stretch and his qbr actually reflected the quality of his play then(it doesn't....he wasn't nearly as good as the numbers indicate in a meaningful way), it doesn't matter because its such a small sample size in a long career and we have more recent data(and more of it) that confirms just how bad he is.
Mccown is not an 'average' starter. He's at the very very very bottom of starters. Somewhere between 28 and 32.
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If you toss out his one aberration year in Chicago- McCown is a low 70s qbr quarterback. I'm not expecting him to recapture the magic.
Larry, you're saying the Josh McCown who earned a 107 passer rating was an aberration when you know Cutler struggled with the exact same teammates? Or, is it possible he finally enjoyed having an offensive line that could protect him on 3rd and short (caused by a good running game) vrs one that could not protect him in Tampa on 3rd and long (caused by the 31st ranked running game)? Mike Pettine addressed this massive difference of environments saying he feels our setup is more like the one he had in Chicago.
That's like telling Houston they need to count on this version of Brian Hoyer rather than the one that came from Cleveland:
2012 Arizona 2 GP 30 CMP 53 ATT 56.6 CMP% 330 YDS 6.23 AVG 1 TD 53 LNG 2 INT 1 FUM 30.5 QBR 65.8 RAT
2 completely different setups getting 2 different outcomes.
Larry, you're saying the Josh McCown who earned a 107 passer rating was an aberration when you know Cutler struggled with the exact same teammates? Or, is it possible he finally enjoyed having an offensive line that could protect him on 3rd and short (caused by a good running game) vrs one that could not protect him in Tampa on 3rd and long (caused by the 31st ranked running game)? Mike Pettine addressed this massive difference of environments saying he feels our setup is more like the one he had in Chicago.
That's like telling Houston they need to count on this version of Brian Hoyer rather than the one that came from Cleveland:
2012 Arizona 2 GP 30 CMP 53 ATT 56.6 CMP% 330 YDS 6.23 AVG 1 TD 53 LNG 2 INT 1 FUM 30.5 QBR 65.8 RAT
2 completely different setups getting 2 different outcomes.
I say this Tom: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McCoJo01.htm
49 starts in 12 years in the league. 61\59 td- int, 76 career qbr. So if you want to tell me the exception proves the rule- be my guest. Journeyman mentor to JF, nothing more. If he was anything better than that- he'd have more than an average of 4 starts a year. Not realistic to expect him to pull a 109 qbr out of his 36 year old ass. Pettine is wishin' and a hopein'.
an 8 game stretch in Chicago 2 years ago? wtf??? That might be something to look at as meaningful if:
1) He weren't like 36 years old and had 12+ years of OTHER play. half a season vs his whole decade+ long career? Hmmmm.....
2) He didn't blow goats for a whole season(not half a season) more recently.
There is no doubt that Mccown played better 2 years ago in half a season than he ever did. There is also absolutely no reason to expect that miniscule fraction of his career to duplicate itself. Not that it matters(since its such a small fraction of his career anyways), but that qb rating was extremely dubious for Chicago anyways. For starters, its not like his record was all that good, even there. Lots of garbage time yards and stats accumulated(in both wins and losses). Additionally, he had two beast 6'5 recievers that were actually healthy (which they rarely are it seems) whose huge tall frames caught a ridiculous number of jump balls.....we obviously don't have two recievers like that.
But even if Mccown was the real deal during that half a season stretch and his qbr actually reflected the quality of his play then(it doesn't....he wasn't nearly as good as the numbers indicate in a meaningful way), it doesn't matter because its such a small sample size in a long career and we have more recent data(and more of it) that confirms just how bad he is.
Mccown is not an 'average' starter. He's at the very very very bottom of starters. Somewhere between 28 and 32.
Be generous- maybe 25 or so.
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Larry, you're saying the Josh McCown who earned a 107 passer rating was an aberration when you know Cutler struggled with the exact same teammates? Or, is it possible he finally enjoyed having an offensive line that could protect him on 3rd and short (caused by a good running game) vrs one that could not protect him in Tampa on 3rd and long (caused by the 31st ranked running game)? Mike Pettine addressed this massive difference of environments saying he feels our setup is more like the one he had in Chicago.
That's like telling Houston they need to count on this version of Brian Hoyer rather than the one that came from Cleveland:
2012 Arizona 2 GP 30 CMP 53 ATT 56.6 CMP% 330 YDS 6.23 AVG 1 TD 53 LNG 2 INT 1 FUM 30.5 QBR 65.8 RAT
2 completely different setups getting 2 different outcomes.
I say this Tom: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McCoJo01.htm
49 starts in 12 years in the league. 61\59 td- int, 76 career qbr. So if you want to tell me the exception proves the rule- be my guest. Journeyman mentor to JF, nothing more. If he was anything better than that- he'd have more than an average of 4 starts a year. Not realistic to expect him to pull a 109 qbr out of his 36 year old ass. Pettine is wishin' and a hopein'.
an 8 game stretch in Chicago 2 years ago? wtf??? That might be something to look at as meaningful if:
1) He weren't like 36 years old and had 12+ years of OTHER play. half a season vs his whole decade+ long career? Hmmmm.....
2) He didn't blow goats for a whole season(not half a season) more recently.
There is no doubt that Mccown played better 2 years ago in half a season than he ever did. There is also absolutely no reason to expect that miniscule fraction of his career to duplicate itself. Not that it matters(since its such a small fraction of his career anyways), but that qb rating was extremely dubious for Chicago anyways. For starters, its not like his record was all that good, even there. Lots of garbage time yards and stats accumulated(in both wins and losses). Additionally, he had two beast 6'5 recievers that were actually healthy (which they rarely are it seems) whose huge tall frames caught a ridiculous number of jump balls.....we obviously don't have two recievers like that.
But even if Mccown was the real deal during that half a season stretch and his qbr actually reflected the quality of his play then(it doesn't....he wasn't nearly as good as the numbers indicate in a meaningful way), it doesn't matter because its such a small sample size in a long career and we have more recent data(and more of it) that confirms just how bad he is.
Mccown is not an 'average' starter. He's at the very very very bottom of starters. Somewhere between 28 and 32.
Be generous- maybe 25 or so.
I say this Tom: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McCoJo01.htm
49 starts in 12 years in the league. 61\59 td- int, 76 career qbr. So if you want to tell me the exception proves the rule- be my guest. Journeyman mentor to JF, nothing more. If he was anything better than that- he'd have more than an average of 4 starts a year. Not realistic to expect him to pull a 109 qbr out of his 36 year old ass. Pettine is wishin' and a hopein'.
Be generous- maybe 25 or so.
This is the one and only time I'll say this -- McCown is no better/worse than Hoyer. They're both below average players who can flash at times, but eventually come back down to mean. Why are people here/everywhere dismissing him, but were clinging onto Hoyer last year at this time? Is it the hometown thing, or was it the small sample size that made people want to believe Hoyer was better?
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budlight QBs in a champagne league.
got it you fucking Retard queer.
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During the time McCown played for them, Chicago's OL was average, Tampa's was terrible.. ours is second-best in the league [behind Dallas].
Get over yourself, taco: McCown will be decent to good here.. because of the OL and running game.
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Larry, you're saying the Josh McCown who earned a 107 passer rating was an aberration when you know Cutler struggled with the exact same teammates? Or, is it possible he finally enjoyed having an offensive line that could protect him on 3rd and short (caused by a good running game) vrs one that could not protect him in Tampa on 3rd and long (caused by the 31st ranked running game)? Mike Pettine addressed this massive difference of environments saying he feels our setup is more like the one he had in Chicago.
That's like telling Houston they need to count on this version of Brian Hoyer rather than the one that came from Cleveland:
2012 Arizona 2 GP 30 CMP 53 ATT 56.6 CMP% 330 YDS 6.23 AVG 1 TD 53 LNG 2 INT 1 FUM 30.5 QBR 65.8 RAT
2 completely different setups getting 2 different outcomes.
I say this Tom: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McCoJo01.htm
49 starts in 12 years in the league. 61\59 td- int, 76 career qbr. So if you want to tell me the exception proves the rule- be my guest. Journeyman mentor to JF, nothing more. If he was anything better than that- he'd have more than an average of 4 starts a year. Not realistic to expect him to pull a 109 qbr out of his 36 year old ass. Pettine is wishin' and a hopein'.
an 8 game stretch in Chicago 2 years ago? wtf??? That might be something to look at as meaningful if:
1) He weren't like 36 years old and had 12+ years of OTHER play. half a season vs his whole decade+ long career? Hmmmm.....
2) He didn't blow goats for a whole season(not half a season) more recently.
There is no doubt that Mccown played better 2 years ago in half a season than he ever did. There is also absolutely no reason to expect that miniscule fraction of his career to duplicate itself. Not that it matters(since its such a small fraction of his career anyways), but that qb rating was extremely dubious for Chicago anyways. For starters, its not like his record was all that good, even there. Lots of garbage time yards and stats accumulated(in both wins and losses). Additionally, he had two beast 6'5 recievers that were actually healthy (which they rarely are it seems) whose huge tall frames caught a ridiculous number of jump balls.....we obviously don't have two recievers like that.
But even if Mccown was the real deal during that half a season stretch and his qbr actually reflected the quality of his play then(it doesn't....he wasn't nearly as good as the numbers indicate in a meaningful way), it doesn't matter because its such a small sample size in a long career and we have more recent data(and more of it) that confirms just how bad he is.
Mccown is not an 'average' starter. He's at the very very very bottom of starters. Somewhere between 28 and 32.
Be generous- maybe 25 or so.
I say this Tom: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McCoJo01.htm
49 starts in 12 years in the league. 61\59 td- int, 76 career qbr. So if you want to tell me the exception proves the rule- be my guest. Journeyman mentor to JF, nothing more. If he was anything better than that- he'd have more than an average of 4 starts a year. Not realistic to expect him to pull a 109 qbr out of his 36 year old ass. Pettine is wishin' and a hopein'.
Be generous- maybe 25 or so.
I think Pettine understands Chicago's offense was the only team that surrounded him with first string players when they played against first string players. I can't help you if you didn't look at who McCown played for what what their running games averaged before Chicago or in Tampa.
There's Steve Young in Tampa and Steve Young in SF - if you only look at numbers you chase yourself away from understanding why there's a drastic difference. For that matter if you look at Troy Aikman's first team in Dallas vrs the one frequenting Superbowls - he had less concussions, an All time leading rusher, great line, and fans inexplicably stopped badgering Jimmy Johnson about why Steve Walsh wasn't starting over the bum. Some QBs just play on crappy teams which seems pertinent to bring up in a discussion stressing QB performances via first string against first string. Tampa never surrounded QBs with many first string players very often, which is why Doug Williams, Vinny Testaverde and Steve Young all had to leave before finding. Meanwhile, it didn't matter if Steve Young, Steve Bono, Jeff Garcia or Joe Montana was QBing in SF - they just kept winning.
There's also Joe Theisman, Warren Moon, Jeff Garcia and Kurt Warner playing Pro Football in other Countries at younger ages. Then there's the ones that came to the NFL and frequented playoffs and Pro Bowls at later ages on good NFL teams. That said, when Garcia played for Detroit he blended in with stink and he fagged out in Cleveland. On the other hand, he led Philly, Tampa and SF to playoffs (while making Pro Bowls). Look at the teammates while you look at the stats and it helps Larry.
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cmon guys...the sec is nowhere near the level of the NFL.....heck, those 3rd team NFLers would slay any SEC team.....and 1st team NFLers would slay any 2nd-3rd team NFLers....soooooo.....
You aint playing with or against real NFL talent until you play 1st team NFL talent using 1st team NFL talent.....across the board.....
Agreed. Let's get this back on track here.
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Manziel aggravated his throwing arm again today. Watched him hit Lenz on a deep pass and he walked off the field with his head down.
Steve Doerschuk said he'll sit Monday and Tuesday to rest, practice Weds/Thurs and play Sat.
Manziel aggravated his throwing arm again today. Watched him hit Lenz on a deep pass and he walked off the field with his head down.
Steve Doerschuk said he'll sit Monday and Tuesday to rest, practice Weds/Thurs and play Sat.
Yeah just heard that.
So . . .
McCown has a sore hand
Manziel has an issue with his elbow (strained?)
Shaw's out with thumb surgery
Leaves us with Thad Lewis or possibly Pryor waiting in the wings.
Not a cheerful outlook to start the Season.
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Manziel aggravated his throwing arm again today. Watched him hit Lenz on a deep pass and he walked off the field with his head down.
Steve Doerschuk said he'll sit Monday and Tuesday to rest, practice Weds/Thurs and play Sat.
Yeah just heard that.
So . . .
McCown has a sore hand
Manziel has an issue with his elbow (strained?)
Shaw's out with thumb surgery
Leaves us with Thad Lewis or possibly Pryor waiting in the wings.
Not a cheerful outlook to start the Season.
McCown has a sore hand
Manziel has an issue with his elbow (strained?)
Shaw's out with thumb surgery
Leaves us with Thad Lewis or possibly Pryor waiting in the wings.
Not a cheerful outlook to start the Season.
I agree.....it's not a cheerful outlook .....considering both McCown and Manziel are fine(just sore) and will practice and play this week.....
...the gloom and doom parade already has us down to the 4th and 5th stringer cause a couple of guys are sore? ....sheesh....
Arent you the same guy that told us Shelton was out for the season with a knee injury just a couple of weeks ago?......
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I will get flamed for this, however I feel Hoyer would have been the best intermediate answer for the next 2-4 years. Sadly there was no deal or extension. While I believe McCown will suffice ok for certain things, I do not believe he handles pressure like Brian.
Now McCown may be more willing to impart his knowledge upon young Johnny, however that's the front office hinging their hopes he may yet become a complete QB. I will also say, I don't believe that day will come. Should the Browns happen to have one of the top 3 QB's in next class available to them when our pick is up - Im certain they would do just that.
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Well....Hoyer just got named as the starter by Obrien.....so good for him....!
However, I do find it ironic that he left here because he couldnt take the pressure of having someone pressing behind him and he didnt like being in a QB competition....yet, he went to a team that offered both......just kind of weird....
I do wish him the best.....though, if he does well, I suspect we'll have to hear about it all year long ......
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Well....Hoyer just got named as the starter by Obrien.....so good for him....!
However, I do find it ironic that he left here because he couldnt take the pressure of having someone pressing behind him and he didnt like being in a QB competition....yet, he went to a team that offered both......just kind of weird....
I do wish him the best.....though, if he does well, I suspect we'll have to hear about it all year long ......
Well....Hoyer just got named as the starter by Obrien.....so good for him....!
However, I do find it ironic that he left here because he couldnt take the pressure of having someone pressing behind him and he didnt like being in a QB competition....yet, he went to a team that offered both......just kind of weird....
I do wish him the best.....though, if he does well, I suspect we'll have to hear about it all year long ......
Hoyer is fragile....and won't last the whole year for the DATs.
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It's preseason. They are working out kinks. But Hoyer?
Everybody liked Hoyer, but let's be honest. He was a backup to...Charlie Batch.
Personally, if Denver keeps Siemian as the 3rd qb... I hope the Browns pick up
Zak Dysert maybe. And after last year's outstanding draft, the Browns are
very much a complete team, and drafting a qb in the first round next year
is very much obvious.
I say Dysert because I don't see Thad Lewis as a temp solution.
When a team has new players, and a new system, etc... I don't harp about
the qb. The Broncos do, and all four of Peyton's drives ended with punts.
It's preseason. Now, when the regular season starts, then we'll see how it plays out.
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Well....Hoyer just got named as the starter by Obrien.....so good for him....!
However, I do find it ironic that he left here because he couldnt take the pressure of having someone pressing behind him and he didnt like being in a QB competition....yet, he went to a team that offered both......just kind of weird....
I do wish him the best.....though, if he does well, I suspect we'll have to hear about it all year long ......
Well....Hoyer just got named as the starter by Obrien.....so good for him....!
However, I do find it ironic that he left here because he couldnt take the pressure of having someone pressing behind him and he didnt like being in a QB competition....yet, he went to a team that offered both......just kind of weird....
I do wish him the best.....though, if he does well, I suspect we'll have to hear about it all year long ......
I'd clearly say that isn't accurate based on not only signing with the Texans, but beating out Mallet.
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Well....Hoyer just got named as the starter by Obrien.....so good for him....!
However, I do find it ironic that he left here because he couldnt take the pressure of having someone pressing behind him and he didnt like being in a QB competition....yet, he went to a team that offered both......just kind of weird....
I do wish him the best.....though, if he does well, I suspect we'll have to hear about it all year long ......
I'd clearly say that isn't accurate based on not only signing with the Texans, but beating out Mallet.
I'd clearly say that isn't accurate based on not only signing with the Texans, but beating out Mallet.
Well....cant say definitively either way....but it was my impression that he didnt like it and it got in his head......and he said, in no uncertain terms, that he wanted to sign with a team where he would start....his words, not mine.....thus the irony.....
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McCown has a sore hand
Manziel has an issue with his elbow (strained?)
Shaw's out with thumb surgery
Leaves us with Thad Lewis or possibly Pryor waiting in the wings.
Not a cheerful outlook to start the Season.
I agree.....it's not a cheerful outlook .....considering both McCown and Manziel are fine(just sore) and will practice and play this week.....
...the gloom and doom parade already has us down to the 4th and 5th stringer cause a couple of guys are sore? ....sheesh....
Arent you the same guy that told us Shelton was out for the season with a knee injury just a couple of weeks ago?......
I agree.....it's not a cheerful outlook .....considering both McCown and Manziel are fine(just sore) and will practice and play this week.....
...the gloom and doom parade already has us down to the 4th and 5th stringer cause a couple of guys are sore? ....sheesh....
Arent you the same guy that told us Shelton was out for the season with a knee injury just a couple of weeks ago?......
Really. Whoever heard of getting sore in a contact sport?
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i'm still hoping for some ray farmer 'nothing up my sleeve' back-room QB grab. not to say i'm whining about our QBs (never been a huge t. lewis fan though) but if there's any possible way to upgrade at any position i think farmer is always looking....
some of these kids that came out a couple of years ago that i would take a serious look at is one, mettneberger and then the other is the kid that played for PITT tom savage. both have cannons and you need that in cleveland come the winter time.
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I'd clearly say that isn't accurate based on not only signing with the Texans, but beating out Mallet.
Well....cant say definitively either way....but it was my impression that he didnt like it and it got in his head......and he said, in no uncertain terms, that he wanted to sign with a team where he would start....his words, not mine.....thus the irony.....
Well....cant say definitively either way....but it was my impression that he didnt like it and it got in his head......and he said, in no uncertain terms, that he wanted to sign with a team where he would start....his words, not mine.....thus the irony.....
I guess it's my interpretation that he would want a fair chance to start. Not someone who would start over him based on draft position or expectations Ala Manziel.
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