The official Terry Pluto thread
-
"But I do know this, something is going on with the Browns and possibly trading down."-TP
"Bob I got a bad feelin' on this one, alright! I mean I got a bad feelin'!" - scene from the BB the year we dropped down for Coleman.....Or Platoon. Take Ur choice.?
-
I'm quite sure when the final numbers are in this will be TRUE. Look for plenty of LSU, OHIO STATE, ALA players.
....3. That said, there are some pretty good players coming out of the Big Ten, especially a certain school in Columbus. But I can’t disagree with Stefanski about the SEC. Or as GM Andrew Berry said: “These are all good players in arguably the best conference in college football.”....
-
Nice Pluto insights into our draft philosophy.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Nice Pluto insights into our draft philosophy.
Nice Pluto insights into our draft philosophy.
Per the article:
"The scheme was why the Browns drafted LSU linebacker Jacob Phillips (No. 97) over Ohio State linebacker Malik Harrison. In the Joe Woods defense, that inside SAM linebacker needs more speed – a strength for Phillips. Harrison is an old-fashioned run-stopper."
Per NFL.com
MALIK HARRISON
40 Yard Dash4.66uVertical Jump36.0INCHESBroad Jump122.0INCHES3 Cone Drill6.83SECONDS20 Yd Shuttle4.32-------------------------------------------------------JACOB PHILLIPS
40 Yard Dash4.66uVertical Jump39.0INCHESBroad Jump126.0INCHES3 Cone Drill7.38SECONDS20 Yd Shuttle4.33 -
I guess I could buy the "speed" thing if it were actually true.
I guess it must be "SEC speed"...?
-
I guess I could buy the "speed" thing if it were actually true.
I guess it must be "SEC speed"...?
I guess I could buy the "speed" thing if it were actually true.
I guess it must be "SEC speed"...?
Right....in all those speed categories Harrison is equal or better.
I personally think this will prove to be a mistake.....but hopefully not.
This has shades of Barkevious Mingo to it.
-
Nice Pluto insights into our draft philosophy.
Nice Pluto insights into our draft philosophy.
True, I've always liked him as a Cleveland sports writer and a decent guy.
5. The Browns didn’t intend to pick a tight end at the start of the draft, but they were overjoyed when Harrison Bryant fell to them in the fourth round. Bryant is the Mackey Award winner as college football’s best tight end. He showed excellent pass receiving skills at Florida Atlantic. Stefanski loves tight ends. Don’t think twice, grab him now... and they did.
6. Why draft Nick Harris in the fifth round? Like Bryant, there is no reason to expect him to start this season. But Harris is a zone-blocking center, perfect for Callahan’s scheme. He is the “tough, smart and accountable” athlete loved by Browns scouts. He also played 17 games for Washington at guard. This pick, No. 160, came from the Indianapolis Colts when the Browns dropped from No. 41 to No. 44 in the second round.
9. The Browns want to begin developing their young players, not simply throwing them immediately into action. It’s what good, stable organizations do. It’s what the Browns have never done since 1999 because of all the changes. The hope is ownership will be patient with Berry/Stefanski, who do seem to work well together.
-
I guess I could buy the "speed" thing if it were actually true.
I guess it must be "SEC speed"...?
I guess I could buy the "speed" thing if it were actually true.
I guess it must be "SEC speed"...?
Trust me, how these two guys do in their relative careers will be watched by many of us.
And what's the size comp between the two, because I'm pretty sure Harrison had him beat their too.
I'm baffled by the local media's complete love affair for this draft. Was it a bad one? No. But there's some definite questions in the middle rounds.
-
Right....in all those speed categories Harrison is equal or better.
I personally think this will prove to be a mistake.....but hopefully not.
This has shades of Barkevious Mingo to it.
I guess I should consider "speed" in different ways. I didn't check the 10 and 20 yard splits between the two, so that might offer some insight into Tony's comments. Also, vertical and broad jump tend to be good indicators of straight line explosion (downhill). Something Phillips edged out Malik on. But where Malik won as the shuttle and cone, things that showcase balance and change of direction.
Trust me, how these two guys do in their relative careers will be watched by many of us.
And what's the size comp between the two, because I'm pretty sure Harrison had him beat their too.
I'm baffled by the local media's complete love affair for this draft. Was it a bad one? No. But there's some definite questions in the middle rounds.
Malik - 6'3 247lbs
Jacob - 6'3 229lbs. Pretty impressive the 40 ended up being the same despite MH being almost 20lbs heavier.
Another curiousity Tony pointed out. About the SAM ILB bit. I wonder if that means what I think it means? We'll be seeing more 3 man fronts. (Odd, Bear, overload, eagle, under, even) Because that particular language to me screams 2 ILB's playing between the tackles.
-
Right....in all those speed categories Harrison is equal or better.
I personally think this will prove to be a mistake.....but hopefully not.
This has shades of Barkevious Mingo to it.
I'm also surprised we didn't go after Harrison because he's better against the pass IMO. 1st step instinct doesn't get measured at Indy; but it shows up on film (when seeing how consistently a LB gets into coverage/zone on time). The volume of pass breakups can also reflect it.
That's not as much of a knock on Phillips as it is a credit to Harrison. Phillips led the National Champions in Tackles (inclusive of his teammates drafted ahead of him) and he has some good qualities as well.
Here's a statistical comparison of the 2 guys the last 2 years (both played 27 games). Source: Athlon Sports NFL Draft Guide 2020
Malik Harrison
2018 13 Games 81 Tackles 8.5 Tackles For Loss 2.5 Sacks 3 QB Hurries 1 INT 4 Pass Breakups
2019 14 Games 75 Tackles 16.5 Tackles for Loss 4.5 Sacks 1 OB Hurry 0 INT 4 Pass Breakups
Jacob Phillips
2018 12 Games 87 Tackles 5.5 Tackles For Loss 1 Sack 5 QB Hurries 1 INT 3 Pass Breakups
2019 15 Games 113 Tackles 7.5 Tackles for Loss 1 Sack 3 OB Hurries 0 INT 1 Pass Breakup
Free agency and the draft hasn't solved my biggest concerns with the LB Corps: Inexperience and Depth. Hope I'm wrong...
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
I guess I could buy the "speed" thing if it were actually true.
I guess it must be "SEC speed"...?
-
I noticed that, too.
Only thing I can come up with is that to my eye Phillips looks faster on tape. Maybe that's "SEC speed"?
Whatever you call it this was the speediest LSU defense I have ever seen there. I'd be interested to know the number of TDs longer than 50 yds on them. I'll bet there were very few. I do know that despite the fact they played so many highly ranked teams, the average yardage per game over the 15 games was about 344/game and average TDs against the D over those same games was just 2.5
-
I think one of the ways this draft stands out is that players were chosen if they fit the system, almost to a total disregard of the weaknesses they had in other areas.
In any draft, with almost every player, you obviously have their strengths and weaknesses. But it seems the gulf between the strengths and weaknesses with some of the players we took are a lot larger than the 'average' selection. The 'glass is half-full' crowd, like Pluto, says we had alignment in values, a plan, and stuck with it, etc. The flip side of that is that, in our system, one hopes that we are able to hide the deficiencies of the players we chose. Of course every team tries to do that but it may be that we will need to do that more than the average team:
Wills- Thought by many to be the best OT prospect available. We depended on Callahan a lot, according to Pluto, in getting info as to how easy it would be to have him change sides. While Callahan has done it with a player before, the fact remains that not many tackles have switched sides in the pros. He fits our system, but this is not a 'plug-and-play' situation, and there is considerable risk here.
Delpit- Maybe the best example. His coverage and center field skills are extraordinary. His tackling is horrendous, minus a small stretch of playoff games. What that means is that every time we see him in a one-on-one tackling situation we will be holding our breath, until he proves otherwise. This is a high risk, high reward situation. But it is not the same high risk, high reward like you see when you choose a player in an early round whom you see has great potential if you can teach him (JaMarcus Russell being one of the best and most well-known example). Delpit is a guy who fits the system of pass defense but once you get outside that area there is a big gulf.
Harris doesn't have the extreme polar situations which Wills and Delpit potentially have, but it can reasonably be said, imo, that if the Browns didn't have a zone blocking scheme as their system, that Harris would have been a poor pick, as his key attributes are attributed mostly to his ability to play in a zone blocking scheme.
It has been said that the Bryant pick was a bit of a surprise, and that if we weren't planning to run a 2 (or 3) TE set much of the time, that he wouldn't have been selected. That seems pretty obvious as his main skill is running routes and catching the ball. He isn't going to be put in to block or provide run support. He might fall into a more typical 'strengths and weaknesses' profile.
Teams choose players who fit their system. That's nothing new. We chose a few players, though, that are almost two different players in one. Right now, before any of theses guys play, we can congratulate the Browns for having a coordinated plan and sticking to it. Compared to past drafts, that alone is cause for celebration. And if their plan works, then we can really congratulate them.
-
I noticed that, too.
Only thing I can come up with is that to my eye Phillips looks faster on tape. Maybe that's "SEC speed"?
Whatever you call it this was the speediest LSU defense I have ever seen there. I'd be interested to know the number of TDs longer than 50 yds on them. I'll bet there were very few. I do know that despite the fact they played so many highly ranked teams, the average yardage per game over the 15 games was about 344/game and average TDs against the D over those same games was just 2.5
Whatever you call it this was the speediest LSU defense I have ever seen there. I'd be interested to know the number of TDs longer than 50 yds on them. I'll bet there were very few. I do know that despite the fact they played so many highly ranked teams, the average yardage per game over the 15 games was about 344/game and average TDs against the D over those same games was just 2.5
What, since A&M joined the conference?
Off the top, the 2003, 2007, 2010 and 2011 squads were all better. And that's just within the last 15 or so years. That 2010 roster was pretty insane.
It's worth considering the absolute bind that LSU's offense puts on other teams. They were outstanding at throwing 40 and 50 times a game with little to no problem. Other teams in the SEC? Not so much. Hell, it wasn't until the arrival of Lane Kiffin that Saban started fielded offenses worth a shit. Every other year it was a war of attrition and the rest of the conference was so offensively inept it wasn't even funny.
-
Whatever you call it this was the speediest LSU defense I have ever seen there. I'd be interested to know the number of TDs longer than 50 yds on them. I'll bet there were very few. I do know that despite the fact they played so many highly ranked teams, the average yardage per game over the 15 games was about 344/game and average TDs against the D over those same games was just 2.5
What, since A&M joined the conference?
Off the top, the 2003, 2007, 2010 and 2011 squads were all better. And that's just within the last 15 or so years. That 2010 roster was pretty insane.
It's worth considering the absolute bind that LSU's offense puts on other teams. They were outstanding at throwing 40 and 50 times a game with little to no problem. Other teams in the SEC? Not so much. Hell, it wasn't until the arrival of Lane Kiffin that Saban started fielded offenses worth a shit. Every other year it was a war of attrition and the rest of the conference was so offensively inept it wasn't even funny.
What, since A&M joined the conference?
Back to the Chinese Bandit days.?
This defense faced higher ranked teams overall than all others and far more varied passing offenses than others had to face. Apples and Oranges.
-
Back to the Chinese Bandit days.?
This defense faced higher ranked teams overall than all others and far more varied passing offenses than others had to face. Apples and Oranges.
- I don't know what that is. I can make up my own terms as well though. Asian Cat-burglar.
- Varied passing offenses? 2011 LSU faced Oregon, WVU, a very good Arkansas team and a pretty good Georgia squad. All with good and varied passing schemes. You should really reconsider.
-
Right....in all those speed categories Harrison is equal or better.
I personally think this will prove to be a mistake.....but hopefully not.
This has shades of Barkevious Mingo to it.
I'm also surprised we didn't go after Harrison because he's better against the pass IMO. 1st step instinct doesn't get measured at Indy; but it shows up on film (when seeing how consistently a LB gets into coverage/zone on time). The volume of pass breakups can also reflect it.
That's not as much of a knock on Phillips as it is a credit to Harrison. Phillips led the National Champions in Tackles (inclusive of his teammates drafted ahead of him) and he has some good qualities as well.
Here's a statistical comparison of the 2 guys the last 2 years (both played 27 games). Source: Athlon Sports NFL Draft Guide 2020
Malik Harrison
2018 13 Games 81 Tackles 8.5 Tackles For Loss 2.5 Sacks 3 QB Hurries 1 INT 4 Pass Breakups
2019 14 Games 75 Tackles 16.5 Tackles for Loss 4.5 Sacks 1 OB Hurry 0 INT 4 Pass Breakups
Jacob Phillips
2018 12 Games 87 Tackles 5.5 Tackles For Loss 1 Sack 5 QB Hurries 1 INT 3 Pass Breakups
2019 15 Games 113 Tackles 7.5 Tackles for Loss 1 Sack 3 OB Hurries 0 INT 1 Pass Breakup
Free agency and the draft hasn't solved my biggest concerns with the LB Corps: Inexperience and Depth. Hope I'm wrong...
I'm also surprised we didn't go after Harrison because he's better against the pass IMO. 1st step instinct doesn't get measured at Indy; but it shows up on film (when seeing how consistently a LB gets into coverage/zone on time). The volume of pass breakups can also reflect it.
That's not as much of a knock on Phillips as it is a credit to Harrison. Phillips led the National Champions in Tackles (inclusive of his teammates drafted ahead of him) and he has some good qualities as well.
Here's a statistical comparison of the 2 guys the last 2 years (both played 27 games). Source: Athlon Sports NFL Draft Guide 2020
Malik Harrison
2018 13 Games 81 Tackles 8.5 Tackles For Loss 2.5 Sacks 3 QB Hurries 1 INT 4 Pass Breakups
2019 14 Games 75 Tackles 16.5 Tackles for Loss 4.5 Sacks 1 OB Hurry 0 INT 4 Pass Breakups
Jacob Phillips
2018 12 Games 87 Tackles 5.5 Tackles For Loss 1 Sack 5 QB Hurries 1 INT 3 Pass Breakups
2019 15 Games 113 Tackles 7.5 Tackles for Loss 1 Sack 3 OB Hurries 0 INT 1 Pass Breakup
Free agency and the draft hasn't solved my biggest concerns with the LB Corps: Inexperience and Depth. Hope I'm wrong...
A fair question to ask perhaps is: how/why did Harrison come down with so many sacks comparatively. An MLB usually doesn't get that many sacks. Phillips's numbers look more normal there.
-
I think one of the ways this draft stands out is that players were chosen if they fit the system, almost to a total disregard of the weaknesses they had in other areas.
In any draft, with almost every player, you obviously have their strengths and weaknesses. But it seems the gulf between the strengths and weaknesses with some of the players we took are a lot larger than the 'average' selection. The 'glass is half-full' crowd, like Pluto, says we had alignment in values, a plan, and stuck with it, etc. The flip side of that is that, in our system, one hopes that we are able to hide the deficiencies of the players we chose. Of course every team tries to do that but it may be that we will need to do that more than the average team:
Wills- Thought by many to be the best OT prospect available. We depended on Callahan a lot, according to Pluto, in getting info as to how easy it would be to have him change sides. While Callahan has done it with a player before, the fact remains that not many tackles have switched sides in the pros. He fits our system, but this is not a 'plug-and-play' situation, and there is considerable risk here.
Delpit- Maybe the best example. His coverage and center field skills are extraordinary. His tackling is horrendous, minus a small stretch of playoff games. What that means is that every time we see him in a one-on-one tackling situation we will be holding our breath, until he proves otherwise. This is a high risk, high reward situation. But it is not the same high risk, high reward like you see when you choose a player in an early round whom you see has great potential if you can teach him (JaMarcus Russell being one of the best and most well-known example). Delpit is a guy who fits the system of pass defense but once you get outside that area there is a big gulf.
Harris doesn't have the extreme polar situations which Wills and Delpit potentially have, but it can reasonably be said, imo, that if the Browns didn't have a zone blocking scheme as their system, that Harris would have been a poor pick, as his key attributes are attributed mostly to his ability to play in a zone blocking scheme.
It has been said that the Bryant pick was a bit of a surprise, and that if we weren't planning to run a 2 (or 3) TE set much of the time, that he wouldn't have been selected. That seems pretty obvious as his main skill is running routes and catching the ball. He isn't going to be put in to block or provide run support. He might fall into a more typical 'strengths and weaknesses' profile.
Teams choose players who fit their system. That's nothing new. We chose a few players, though, that are almost two different players in one. Right now, before any of theses guys play, we can congratulate the Browns for having a coordinated plan and sticking to it. Compared to past drafts, that alone is cause for celebration. And if their plan works, then we can really congratulate them.
I think one of the ways this draft stands out is that players were chosen if they fit the system, almost to a total disregard of the weaknesses they had in other areas.
In any draft, with almost every player, you obviously have their strengths and weaknesses. But it seems the gulf between the strengths and weaknesses with some of the players we took are a lot larger than the 'average' selection. The 'glass is half-full' crowd, like Pluto, says we had alignment in values, a plan, and stuck with it, etc. The flip side of that is that, in our system, one hopes that we are able to hide the deficiencies of the players we chose. Of course every team tries to do that but it may be that we will need to do that more than the average team:
Of course, opponents, if they are smart they exploit the weaknesses that players have.
Wills- Thought by many to be the best OT prospect available. We depended on Callahan a lot, according to Pluto, in getting info as to how easy it would be to have him change sides. While Callahan has done it with a player before, the fact remains that not many tackles have switched sides in the pros. He fits our system, but this is not a 'plug-and-play' situation, and there is considerable risk here.
Delpit- Maybe the best example. His coverage and center field skills are extraordinary. His tackling is horrendous, minus a small stretch of playoff games. What that means is that every time we see him in a one-on-one tackling situation we will be holding our breath, until he proves otherwise. This is a high risk, high reward situation. But it is not the same high risk, high reward like you see when you choose a player in an early round whom you see has great potential if you can teach him (JaMarcus Russell being one of the best and most well-known example). Delpit is a guy who fits the system of pass defense but once you get outside that area there is a big gulf.
Harris doesn't have the extreme polar situations which Wills and Delpit potentially have, but it can reasonably be said, imo, that if the Browns didn't have a zone blocking scheme as their system, that Harris would have been a poor pick, as his key attributes are attributed mostly to his ability to play in a zone blocking scheme.
It has been said that the Bryant pick was a bit of a surprise, and that if we weren't planning to run a 2 (or 3) TE set much of the time, that he wouldn't have been selected. That seems pretty obvious as his main skill is running routes and catching the ball. He isn't going to be put in to block or provide run support. He might fall into a more typical 'strengths and weaknesses' profile.
Teams choose players who fit their system. That's nothing new. We chose a few players, though, that are almost two different players in one. Right now, before any of theses guys play, we can congratulate the Browns for having a coordinated plan and sticking to it. Compared to past drafts, that alone is cause for celebration. And if their plan works, then we can really congratulate them.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login