Jamie Collins
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We paid what we needed to pay at the time to keep a quality player in CLE. Remember we traded for him in a contract year and we not anywhere near "good" at the time... not really the way to judge him.
As for your comps, five rush artists and two MLBs, kinda apples and oranges there. He's never been given any of those roles on a full time basis. Had he been would he have shown as brightly? Doubtful as he doesn't seem to have the first step those guys do, but not impossible to imagine.
Sure, at the time I wasn't mad at the contract and completely agree. Only way we were going to get ANY FA's the last five years was to overpay them greatly.
I just use that data to suggest that going into next season, his rate of pay IMO doesn't equate to similar (admittedly somewhat different) players at the position. Point is, it's fair to say he's getting paid at a superstar (or very near) level and I'm not sure he's played close to that at all. Seeing he's also hit the 30 year old mark and as I've described the guys we know we're gonna have to pay, I don't see how his contract gets justified.
Point is, it's fair to say he's getting paid at a superstar (or very near) level and I'm not sure he's played close to that at all. Seeing he's also hit the 30 year old mark and as I've described the guys we know we're gonna have to pay, I don't see how his contract gets justified.
Agree with that point... the contract is outsized, but (my point) it always was...
Ultimately the issue is whether you can replace let alone upgrade his on field contributions irrespective of cost. I don't see that being as easy at ROLB as it is at several other positions including the other two LB slots.
And I say that loving both Joe and Kirk.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Eh, I'm not sure how much that matters really.
Let me put it a different way. Going into the season Collins was the 7th highest paid player at the position. The guys above him? Von Miller, Justin Houston, Melvin Ingram, Robert Quinn, and Clay Matthews. The two guys below him are Kuechly and Nick Perry
Do you (you being figurative here) really see Jamie Collins in that group of people? I sure as hell don't. As noted, with guys we're going to need to pay in the current 4 year salary cap period, paying this dude almost $12 million for decent, but not great, play doesn't add up. I'd be very surprised to see him on his current deal next year.
I compared your list to an NFL LB stats page, and it’s kind of a tough call to determine who should make what based on them. Guys like Von Miller and Matthews have flashier sack totals, but literally less than half the total tackle numbers that Collins has. Sort of begs the question what is a tackle worth? Or a sack? Or an interception?
Both Schobert and Collins were in the top 30, mostly based on tackles, but both had some complimentary sacks and such in there too.
They both played a whole lotta snaps, so their total tackle numbers should be high. Another indicator that he is basically one of our main dudes on defense. Affording his contract at this point in time is not an issue. There simply is no sense of urgency to get rid of or restructure his contract.
I compared your list to an NFL LB stats page, and it’s kind of a tough call to determine who should make what based on them. Guys like Von Miller and Matthews have flashier sack totals, but literally less than half the total tackle numbers that Collins has. Sort of begs the question what is a tackle worth? Or a sack? Or an interception?
Both Schobert and Collins were in the top 30, mostly based on tackles, but both had some complimentary sacks and such in there too.
They both played a whole lotta snaps, so their total tackle numbers should be high. Another indicator that he is basically one of our main dudes on defense. Affording his contract at this point in time is not an issue. There simply is no sense of urgency to get rid of or restructure his contract.
Good stuff and point taken. I think I'd argue tackles aren't as "impressive" simply because any LB worth a lick getting starters minutes is going to be in the 100+ range of tackles on a season. In terms of the affording his contract, I'd again point out that we have a ton of guys to potentially pay going into 2020 and 2021. The cap rule of spending as I understand applies over a period of four years, beginning in 2017. When you consider the guys we'd wanna pay (potentially), hoarding cash and losing this contract could really mean keeping the core young guys on good deals.
Agree with that point... the contract is outsized, but (my point) it always was...
Ultimately the issue is whether you can replace let alone upgrade his on field contributions irrespective of cost. I don't see that being as easy at ROLB as it is at several other positions including the other two LB slots.
And I say that loving both Joe and Kirk.
Definitely a fair point. I wouldn't be against a restructure to keep the guy. He's just not worth the price tag.
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I compared your list to an NFL LB stats page, and it’s kind of a tough call to determine who should make what based on them. Guys like Von Miller and Matthews have flashier sack totals, but literally less than half the total tackle numbers that Collins has. Sort of begs the question what is a tackle worth? Or a sack? Or an interception?
Both Schobert and Collins were in the top 30, mostly based on tackles, but both had some complimentary sacks and such in there too.
They both played a whole lotta snaps, so their total tackle numbers should be high. Another indicator that he is basically one of our main dudes on defense. Affording his contract at this point in time is not an issue. There simply is no sense of urgency to get rid of or restructure his contract.
Good stuff and point taken. I think I'd argue tackles aren't as "impressive" simply because any LB worth a lick getting starters minutes is going to be in the 100+ range of tackles on a season. In terms of the affording his contract, I'd again point out that we have a ton of guys to potentially pay going into 2020 and 2021. The cap rule of spending as I understand applies over a period of four years, beginning in 2017. When you consider the guys we'd wanna pay (potentially), hoarding cash and losing this contract could really mean keeping the core young guys on good deals.
Agree with that point... the contract is outsized, but (my point) it always was...
Ultimately the issue is whether you can replace let alone upgrade his on field contributions irrespective of cost. I don't see that being as easy at ROLB as it is at several other positions including the other two LB slots.
And I say that loving both Joe and Kirk.
Definitely a fair point. I wouldn't be against a restructure to keep the guy. He's just not worth the price tag.
Good stuff and point taken. I think I'd argue tackles aren't as "impressive" simply because any LB worth a lick getting starters minutes is going to be in the 100+ range of tackles on a season. In terms of the affording his contract, I'd again point out that we have a ton of guys to potentially pay going into 2020 and 2021. The cap rule of spending as I understand applies over a period of four years, beginning in 2017. When you consider the guys we'd wanna pay (potentially), hoarding cash and losing this contract could really mean keeping the core young guys on good deals.
There’s probably a healthy and mutually beneficial middle ground here. If ‘20 or ‘21 is what you’re worried about, pay the man now and table this conversation until this time next year. Serves multiple purposes. Veteran presence and production next year, possible tutilage for his successor, and a statement from the team that they will honor their contracts might bode well for the guys you hope to lock up in ‘20 or ‘21.
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