I want to believe this but....

hoorta

@the-gipper said:

Yes, but it is hard to not take into account the past when judging the present, or the future.

That's Steeler think Gipper.

htownbrown

Truth be told, as a witness to the past 20 years, I'm thrilled to see a debate about whether or not the browns have a top 10 QB. Not gonna lie.

The problem isn't necessarily about Baker's ability or potential. You have to look at the history of the system each QB is in. I'm a Freddie Kitchens fan, but that's quite a leap of faith. He'd be the first person to say that.

There is an argument to be made that Baker may be a better QB than Ryan, Wentz, or Goff by years end, but Ben is a much harder sale for me. I hate the rapist more than anyone, don't get me wrong. But to put it in boxing terms, Ben will take you into deep waters and drown you. Baker just isn't a great finisher yet, but I expect to see a bit more of that from him this season.

Here's their methodology:

These rankings are based on how each QB performed last season and the upside of how each might perform in 2019. No matter how many Super Bowl rings or MVP awards a QB has won, or the number of efficient passing seasons he has posted in the past, history is a small part of the equation. We thought about where each QB ended up last season in terms of effectiveness, production and durability, and then we thought even more about how his talent and offensive support set him up for success (or lack thereof) this season.

I think we can check the effectiveness, production, and durability boxes for both Baker and Ben. The problem here is they are ignoring the system these guys are in and focusing on talent influx exclusively. Under their parameters the rankings make more sense, but I'm not sure it's an entirely fair assessment.

I hope Baker winds up the best QB in the league by seasons end, but I think this run game under Freddie will be dominant over the second half of the season. I see Chubb and Hunt digging into Baker's "production" quite a bit. We shall see.

Westside Steve

@htownbrown said:

...still a ways to go. Baker ranked ahead of Ben makes me chuckle though.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-all-32-nfl-quarterbacks-from-best-to-worst/1e800cpni4cjf15fseqi4yrz1k

So would you make the trade straight up?

WSS

htownbrown

@westside-steve said:

So would you make the trade straight up?

WSS

Hell no

The Gipper

@hoorta said:

That's Steeler think Gipper.

Well....I think I am being a bit more specific than that. Example: Tom Brady DID win the Super Bowl this past year. Drew Brees should have been in the Super Bowl. As much as I wish BR were to lose it, he did throw for 5K yards last year. So, even though these are historical matters, its not like I have to go back very far to see how well these guys can do.

choco

Again, 5000 yards means fukall. Ben also led the league in interceptions. Bulk yardage stats are misleading.

And what does the system have to do with these ratings? No correlation that I see....

The Gipper

@choco said:

Again, 5000 yards means fukall. Ben also led the league in interceptions. Bulk yardage stats are misleading.

And what does the system have to do with these ratings? No correlation that I see....

Hmm....that was the same argument that Vagitroll made about Landry...that he was just a "volume" pass catcher, and naturally, his conclusion was that Landry was not very good....and that you can get 20 Landrys in any given draft. Of course that is a horeshit argument, and I also believe that it is somewhat horseshit when it comes to BR.

And I don't know about these particular ratings....but I do know that a particular system can help a QB with certain kinds of number. Take the QB passer rating system. For a long while the guys that were the career leaders in that statistic were all seemingly "West Coast" QBs. Sure, you had Joe Montana and Steve Young up there....but you also had the likes of Jeff Garcia and Trent Green among the career leaders. That has dissapated somewhat.....but the fact is, of the Top 40 QBs in history.....one single QB played his career at any point prior to 1979....which was just after the big rule change regarding contact with receivers. (fyi...that one had the intitials of O.G).

Kvoethe

Im expecting a sophomore slump this year...as it happens to most if not all Q Bs

Mark O

@kvoethe said:

Im expecting a sophomore slump this year...as it happens to most if not all Q Bs

Or could go the way of Jared Goff who got better his 2nd year with a new coach. Good thing for Baker is he got the 2nd half of last season to work with his new coach.

The Gipper

@mark-o said:

Or could go the way of Jared Goff who got better his 2nd year with a new coach. Good thing for Baker is he got the 2nd half of last season to work with his new coach.

Or...Bernie Kosar, who led the Browns to the best record in the AFC in his second year and into the AFC title game and one prevent defense that allowed a 98 yard drive short of going to the Super Bowl.!!

choco

@the-gipper said:

Hmm....that was the same argument that Vagitroll made about Landry...

Mahomes had 4955 yds on 583 attempts, 385 completions, 66.0%

Ben had 5008 yds on 689 attempts, 459 completions, 66.6%

"Threw for 5000 yards" has no context is really all i mean...this is the difference in efficiency, and i consider this much more important when trying to compare players. Mahomes had very similar production on 74 less completions. Thats only the first layer of the onion.

Vag doesn't know how to lay out a coherent argument.

Comeonman

@the-gipper said:

Hmm....that was the same argument that Vagitroll made about Landry...that he was just a "volume" pass catcher, and naturally, his conclusion was that Landry was not very good....and that you can get 20 Landrys in any given draft. Of course that is a horeshit argument, and I also believe that it is somewhat horseshit when it comes to BR.

And I don't know about these particular ratings....but I do know that a particular system can help a QB with certain kinds of number. Take the QB passer rating system. For a long while the guys that were the career leaders in that statistic were all seemingly "West Coast" QBs. Sure, you had Joe Montana and Steve Young up there....but you also had the likes of Jeff Garcia and Trent Green among the career leaders. That has dissapated somewhat.....but the fact is, of the Top 40 QBs in history.....one single QB played his career at any point prior to 1979....which was just after the big rule change regarding contact with receivers. (fyi...that one had the intitials of O.G).

So Greg Little could have been a “volume” guy. If he could have caught the ball.

Running routes crisply and having great hands. Yep..... “dime a dozen” as one would say.

Tour2ma

@htownbrown said:

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-all-32-nfl-quarterbacks-from-best-to-worst/1e800cpni4cjf15fseqi4yrz1k

I focus on the "tiers", the groupings not the 1-40 order.

Only Tier1 I'd argue against is Mahommes due to it being one year and the fall off in the playoffs. With the loss of weapons in KC it's hard for me to see him repeating.

Tier 2??? Wentz... still waiting for him to make it thru a season and into the playoffs.

Tier 3? Weirdly small and a weird mix, e.g., Trubs in same group as Watson and Prescott???

Tiers 4 thru whatever... laughable mish mash.

Gunz41

@the-gipper said:

I would certainly not put Ryan ahead of BR.

And Wentz is way to high based on his abilities, including availability

I would put Newton at about 10, not 19 and certainly above the likes of Goff, Wentz, Stafford, Garropolo, Prescott, Trubisky.

And Foles at 24? Huh. no. About 12-14 at minimum....certainly over guys who have done nothing like Winston/Mariota, Darnold, Cousins, Prescott. etc.

While Eli has fallen, I would still put him at about 20...over some of the never haves.

And I certainly am not ready to put Mahomes at #1 over Rodgers/Brady/Brees/Wilson and maybe a few others. Maybe in a couple of years. (but I am hoping that it is Baker, not he that proves to be the better QB)

Where would you have Baker? You didn't mention him in that.

Not that it will happen, nor that it looks like that, but we have seen QBs do really good things in 1st year and then fall off. Nothing I have seen would tell me that, but there is history. Even though he is a different QB than some of them.

Certainly not just you Gip, wherever you have him ranked, but people want to point out flaws for others and not use them for their guy. Again that doesn't mean you, and not just about Baker.

The Gipper

@gunz41 said:

Where would you have Baker? You didn't mention him in that.

I didn't bother, didn't realize I was obligated to. My honest answer is: I don't know.

Not that it will happen, nor that it looks like that, but we have seen QBs do really good things in 1st year and then fall off. Nothing I have seen would tell me that, but there is history. Even though he is a different QB than some of them.

There is history for the opposite as well. See above my post about BK....led the team to the best record in the AFC...and to the AFC title game (and almost Super Bowl)...in his second year.

Certainly not just you Gip, wherever you have him ranked, but people want to point out flaws for others and not use them for their guy. Again that doesn't mean you, and not just about Baker.

You go ahead an point out what you think would be Baker's flaws, and I will determine if I agree with them.

Gunz41

@the-gipper said:

Well one, I never said anything about his flaws, but if you think he is perfect then go ahead. I don't care if you agree with them, I certainly know my knowledge, and it's also not a peeing contest.

And if you think that asking where you would rank him was somehow wrong, then I can't help you. Nobody said you were obligated to. But it is funny you don't know where you would rank him, yet have no issue with ranking others.

And of course there are cases both ways, nobody ever said different.

hoorta

@gunz41 said:

Well one, I never said anything about his flaws, but if you think he is perfect then go ahead. I don't care if you agree with them, I certainly know my knowledge, and it's also not a peeing contest.

And if you think that asking where you would rank him was somehow wrong, then I can't help you. Nobody said you were obligated to. But it is funny you don't know where you would rank him, yet have no issue with ranking others.

And of course there are cases both ways, nobody ever said different.

My answer would also have to be- "we don't know". He repeats what he did in his rookie year- he's top 10. Has the sophomore slump- and its Blake Bortles territory.

Gunz41

@hoorta said:

My answer would also have to be- "we don't know". He repeats what he did in his rookie year- he's top 10. Has the sophomore slump- and its Blake Bortles territory.

I get that, I'm not saying anyone has to have a spot for him. I don't know where I would put him. That was just a question, no right or wrong answer.

It was really just about saying so and so hasn't done anything, so they would be lower than so and so.

The Gipper

@gunz41 said:

Well one, I never said anything about his flaws, but if you think he is perfect then go ahead. I don't care if you agree with them, I certainly know my knowledge, and it's also not a peeing contest.

And if you think that asking where you would rank him was somehow wrong, then I can't help you. Nobody said you were obligated to. But it is funny you don't know where you would rank him, yet have no issue with ranking others.

And of course there are cases both ways, nobody ever said different.

I never said that you said anything about his flaws....though you did ask others what his flaws are. And I never said he was perfect....I just said that it is not my responsibility to point out his flaws. Why would you want to make it MY responsibility...if you are unable to take on that task yourself.

And I don't think that you asking me where I would rank him is wrong.... its just, again, not my duty to do that.

But, if you fell that is is absolutely my duty to do so....whether or not I believe what I say...just to satisfy your craving for my opinion, I will say: OK, just put him where the article puts him. Why not?

And no, I didn't really rank others much...I just stated whether I thought they were properly ranked.

Gunz41

@the-gipper said:

I never said that you said anything about his flaws....though you did ask others what his flaws are. And I never said he was perfect....I just said that it is not my responsibility to point out his flaws. Why would you want to make it MY responsibility...if you are unable to take on that task yourself.

And I don't think that you asking me where I would rank him is wrong.... its just, again, not my duty to do that.

But, if you fell that is is absolutely my duty to do so....whether or not I believe what I say...just to satisfy your craving for my opinion, I will say: OK, just put him where the article puts him. Why not?

And no, I didn't really rank others much...I just stated whether I thought they were properly ranked.

It was just the smugness it seemed to have when saying you weren't obligated.

You kinda did rank some of them: Cam, Foles, Eli and said so and so would be behind them.

And if you can't see how people, not just this forum, not just Browns fans, not just football fans, etc tend to ignore the flaws when it is something they like, have, etc then I don't know what to tell you. I'm not even saying it is wrong to do so. Beauty/worth is in the eye of the beholder. A perfect example that you have even referenced is the Steeler guy and how he changed up on Brown.