2021 'Who are you watching?' NFL prospect thread.
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I have a bit of write-up incoming tonight. But before I do that, I felt this was as good a thread as any.
I've started a 'TBB' discord. Honestly, I feel at times it might be easier than The Tavern. Except it can be purposed for things when the Browns themselves aren't playing. It can be used to share thoughts on prospects, coaches, gameplans, whatever film review you might do... with the "share screen" function, the review can be done in group so ideas on what players we're watching can be shared live in group.
This is the link, I'm listed as the Admin and I do have a couple names in mind on mods should they wish to have the role. Like anything else, there will be a couple small rules to observe, but that's about it. With my new desktop built and command center done (thanks to a dear friend) might as well put it to good use. I'll be in there starting tonight should anyone want to check out how I, or anyone else, watches their tape. I'm sure I'll be in there as well at times throughout the off-season leading up to the draft on any prospects I may watch.
More on Kary Vincent to follow.
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Kary Vincent Jr v UCF
It's a full game and I've taken the liberty of time stamping plays throughout. Keep in mind, as far as football goes it was "boring" game for Kary. Really what I found though was more reps on technique, if anything.
6:20 Smooth like jazz. The feet are light, the hips fluid and the movement is patient.
6:41 Hips a little too open and weight distribution asking to be beaten back inside. Just knows it's a poor release in man against a run heavy team.
8:38 Would like to see his upfield arm make contact on the left shoulder, but another patient display and doesn't open up until the receiver commits to running to the outside shoulder.
35:35 Square and stays half body upfield. Makes contact with backfield arm when seeing receiver not pressing hard up field.
Good base, plays low and never loses balance. It's like watching a tiger get and stay low until they pounce. I don't really have a better comparison, but I'm positive his vertical, shuttle, 3 cone and broad jump will all be good at the pro day (should LSU run those)36:00 Mirrors the release well without allowing too much cushion between himself and the receiver at and past snap. This is textbook playing "on ball" without using your hands at the snap. A natural tactician who understands when to make his contact given his "limited" size. And zero fear of being beaten vertically because of the trust in his athletic ability. Professional make up speed. Can't stress this enough, there are many corners who don't trust their own athletic ability and generally panic early afraid of the deep shot.
37:44 I wanted to use this rep to just show how fluid this kid is in his movement. It's like watching a dancer. His hips and feet move so well laterally,
but most important he can turn and run with the best of the corners I've watched the past few seasons. Kary doesn't overcommit to the inside move,
doesn't land his initial strike, but when he turns to run he doesn't bail so hard that he's high hip on the reciever. Stays even because it's going to
be very difficult to out-accelerate a runner of this quality unless you beat him physically up at the line. He really tosses a blanket on the UCF
receiver all the way down the field. By my count, UCF hasn't thrown at him once yet. The Knights routinely targeted 6'3 195lb Mannie Netherly.
6'3 195 is NFL size, but when you're getting your ass beat, that 6'3 doesn't account for much now, does it?
46:50 Does the word 'Island' mean anything to you? LSU coaches had little fear of putting him out against insanely wide splits with little to no safety help. Yes, I also acknowledge UCF's passing game isn't great. Still, he's a young DB and it doesn't take much contact to lose a battle outside at 5'10, 190lbs unless you are just that good.105:21 Falls off in man reading QB eyes. Just a ball player anticipating a bad throw and getting underneath. Eyes like that are a foreshadow to quality play in spot and pattern matching zones.
114:04 I wish I had sky-kam all 22 for every team, it would make shit so much easier. Isn't often I toss around the word "natural". But Kary is a natural DB... corner. He just back-peddles so well on the perimeter. Weight distribution is even, he doesn't ever seem "over" or "behind" in his stance and again, so very smart with his contact. He knows he can't win right at the line when a receiver has the arm length on him. So the closed distanced at the snap, patient mirror on the release and when the receiver turns upfield is when the contact comes. Most people won't notice that, but it's very smart play that helps limit his length disadvantage at the snap. Though he was just a bit too overzealous on this particular rep.
Yes, LSU felt it best to put Kary on the perimeter this game. Why? I suspect a couple reasons. The biggest of those being that UCF loves having their receivers in incredibly wide splits to space out DB's and LB's to help their running game. A lot more room to work with when you have the extra bodies out of the box and away from running lanes. Another reason - necessity. This was the game Greedy sat out and other DB's were lost with ejection or injury. Finally - as I said earlier, space. Passing is easier back to the plus side of the field when your split is so wide you have room to run. With said space, it also invites DB's to take away the inside as much as possible giving you a counter shot back outside and vertical should they get to happy in their position. Kary was playing "inside eye" technique almost all game because of this. And he didn't look out of place at all despite not being thrown at.
I know @texasag1969 said he would take Shaun Wade in the 2nd over in Cal's thread, but I couldn't begin to disagree more. Even if Shaun shows out well at his pro-day, his mental lapses this past year, effort and his physical prowess were not in the least impressive. His footspeed was also not good, alluding to some mentioning him more as a safety. So I'll ask then - why would I take a CB in the 2nd and then see what he can do with his limited reps at safety when I can take Kary, who will have better numbers in the agility and speed drills with more tape on him playing back on a hash and zone replacement. But with a smaller draft capital investment such as the 4th-5th round? (Possibly higher given what I'm watching) Because KV is 5'10 190 and SW is 6'1 195? This is an outdated way of thinking and while yes, measurables do matter, they aren't the end-all in qualifying NFL potential. Would you rather have had the Browns take Delpit or Winfield this past season? Sure, the injury now being a hindsight thing. But once we got past Antoine being 5'9, Tampa found themselves a hell of a player.
I'd also like to speak to labels. I see this with NFL media personalities and even decent reviewers who toss around things that are often far too vague or general in terminology. Almost as though they forget to consider the personnel matchup heavy nature that is the NFL. In Kary's example, you're going to hear the word "slot" used A LOT... if you already haven't been beaten to death with it. But I think it's a lazy piece of scouting meant to diminish his abilities. And I'll give you my reasons....
- Tyreek Hill
- Hollywood Brown
- TY HIlton
- Brandin Cooks
- Jamison Crowder
- Diontae Johnson
- John Brown
- Henry RuggsThese are all speed merchant receivers for AFC teams. With the exception of Cooks and Crowder, they're all receivers for AFC contenders and playoff teams. You see, I'm not going to draft a Kary Vincent and park his ass over a #2 or #3 and tell him to do work regardless of who he lines up against. That's shit just sounds stupid. If he draws a TE or a bigger receiver all I've done is not play to his best ability. And all of the receivers I've listed above are game breakers for their teams who line up all over the formation despite the fact that the tallest of that list is Henry Ruggs at 5'11. Each one of them are questions I need an answer too as a coach. So when I see a corner, with track speed, smooth feet but might be considered slightly undersized at 5'10 being devalued with "SLOT CORNER!!" label (in a passing league, I might add) I ask myself 'So what?'. That's an antiquated way of scouting. I play my game around matching up personnel, where they align on the field is just a product of the former. I can see that Kary's feet and kinetic awareness/ability are equally as good outside as they are inside. Sure, generally you put your size to the perimeter ala receivers such as Tee Higgins, DK Metcalf, Mike Evans, D-Hop, Devante Parker, etc etc. Those are thought of as your traditional 'X' receivers. But those are not the receivers I'm drafting this particular role player for. The Browns want to go to the SuperBowl? Dealing with Kansas City and Tyreek Hill is at the top of my list. They are the gatekeepers, the current mountain CLE will have to conquer for a SuperBowl appearance. And Hill as we saw running at the #3 in trips was a real issue for our secondary. Because the 2 big routes he hits you with are that deep over and then that sprint out that iced the game as the counter. So sure, you won't be trying to lock down Mike Evans, Michael Thomas, Julio and other tall receivers. You might not get the recognition of a Jalen Ramsey, but he got burned by Tyreek a couple times, didn't he? The NFL still loves their warp speed, they still love the WR's who can walk by DB's. So more than anything what I want, what I need, is a 4.3 corner who I know has confidence in himself denying speed and deep shots with his own athletic ability.
It's a classic fire v fire scenario. A speed arms race, so to speak. Right now KC has the market cornered with their own legion of zoom. The Browns need to add their own speed and athletic weapons on defense if they hope to limit the wave of quickness all over the conference. In my football heart of hearts, I believe I've found a DB who (so far) appears to help me answer those personnel questions.
.... As for the Browns speed on offense? A topic for another time.
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"I know @texasag1969 said he would take Shaun Wade in the 2nd over in Cal's thread, but I couldn't begin to disagree more."
What? You'd take an SEC player over an O$U player tia? That there is a hangin' offense round these parts pardner.?
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"I know @texasag1969 said he would take Shaun Wade in the 2nd over in Cal's thread, but I couldn't begin to disagree more."
What? You'd take an SEC player over an O$U player tia? That there is a hangin' offense round these parts pardner.?
"I know @texasag1969 said he would take Shaun Wade in the 2nd over in Cal's thread, but I couldn't begin to disagree more."
What? You'd take an SEC player over an O$U player tia? That there is a hangin' offense round these parts pardner.?
Read this in a Yosemite Sam voice.
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"I know @texasag1969 said he would take Shaun Wade in the 2nd over in Cal's thread, but I couldn't begin to disagree more."
What? You'd take an SEC player over an O$U player tia? That there is a hangin' offense round these parts pardner.?
Read this in a Yosemite Sam voice.
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How 'bout this in a Pace Commercial?
Not once did I hear a "ya rekcon?".... I'm sorry, I thought this was a western.
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interesting - Tiam's Kary Vinent(CB):
"Just a few years ago, teams would throw anyone on a tight end. They did not look at whether or not the player was a safety or a cornerback. They just wanted to stop a threat. Then the speedy tight end and speedy slot wide receiver came around. NFL starting looking for nickel corners that had speed and cover skills. Kary Vincent Jr. is exactly what NFL teams were looking for. A player who could cover and shadow a Tyreek Hill. Well Vincent Jr. is that guy. He is a track star with football skills. He will be a stud and a starter day one in the NFL. – Damond Talbot, NFL Draft Diamonds, Owner"
and my 2nd round pick
https://www.nfldraftdiamonds.com/2020/12/eric-stokes/
NFL Draft Diamonds Scouting Notes
"The Covington, Georgia native is aggressive in the secondary. I hope that does not bite him at the next level. He will need to turn his head around more at the next level, but when it comes to staying with the wide out step for step, that is Stokes. In his career he has 3 career interceptions, but 76 tackles and 1 forced fumble. He has 25 career pass deflections though and that is key. He will be taken but I am not sure at this point how high he will be selected. If I was to guess, I would say he is a 2nd to 3rd rounder right now. – Damond Talbot, NFL Draft Diamonds Owner"
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Like any observant eye, I tend to keep track of how the work is received.
This thread had almost 500 views with no posts damn near overnight.
Uhh....whuuuut?!
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Like any observant eye, I tend to keep track of how the work is received.
This thread had almost 500 views with no posts damn near overnight.
Uhh....whuuuut?!
This thread had almost 500 views with no posts damn near overnight.
Uhh....whuuuut?!
second! You saw that too, Uhh? ?.(senior bowl scouts?).. Never mind about your thoughts on Richie Grant ?.. PM them to me
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second! You saw that too, Uhh? ?.(senior bowl scouts?).. Never mind about your thoughts on Richie Grant ?.. PM them to me
I have a couple more games to wrap up with KVJ. After that I'm moving onto Patrick Jones, but when I do I'll put Grant on deck.
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I have a couple more games to wrap up with KVJ. After that I'm moving onto Patrick Jones, but when I do I'll put Grant on deck.
I always enjoy your takes tia. Nuff said.?
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I always enjoy your takes tia. Nuff said.?
Awwwwww shucks. Thanks, boo.
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I have a bit of write-up incoming tonight. But before I do that, I felt this was as good a thread as any.
I've started a 'TBB' discord. Honestly, I feel at times it might be easier than The Tavern. Except it can be purposed for things when the Browns themselves aren't playing. It can be used to share thoughts on prospects, coaches, gameplans, whatever film review you might do... with the "share screen" function, the review can be done in group so ideas on what players we're watching can be shared live in group.
This is the link, I'm listed as the Admin and I do have a couple names in mind on mods should they wish to have the role. Like anything else, there will be a couple small rules to observe, but that's about it. With my new desktop built and command center done (thanks to a dear friend) might as well put it to good use. I'll be in there starting tonight should anyone want to check out how I, or anyone else, watches their tape. I'm sure I'll be in there as well at times throughout the off-season leading up to the draft on any prospects I may watch.
More on Kary Vincent to follow.
I have a bit of write-up incoming tonight. But before I do that, I felt this was as good a thread as any.
I've started a 'TBB' discord. Honestly, I feel at times it might be easier than The Tavern. Except it can be purposed for things when the Browns themselves aren't playing. It can be used to share thoughts on prospects, coaches, gameplans, whatever film review you might do... with the "share screen" function, the review can be done in group so ideas on what players we're watching can be shared live in group.
This is the link, I'm listed as the Admin and I do have a couple names in mind on mods should they wish to have the role. Like anything else, there will be a couple small rules to observe, but that's about it. With my new desktop built and command center done (thanks to a dear friend) might as well put it to good use. I'll be in there starting tonight should anyone want to check out how I, or anyone else, watches their tape. I'm sure I'll be in there as well at times throughout the off-season leading up to the draft on any prospects I may watch.
More on Kary Vincent to follow.
I'll have to remember my Discord login info and join
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I have a couple more games to wrap up with KVJ. After that I'm moving onto Patrick Jones, but when I do I'll put Grant on deck.
Patrick Jones teammate Jaylen Twyman - he stood out when I watched some Pitt games in 2019. He didn’t play last year. Seems raw but talented. I’m Curious what you think about him.
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I have a couple more games to wrap up with KVJ. After that I'm moving onto Patrick Jones, but when I do I'll put Grant on deck.
Patrick Jones teammate Jaylen Twyman - he stood out when I watched some Pitt games in 2019. He didn’t play last year. Seems raw but talented. I’m Curious what you think about him.
Patrick Jones teammate Jaylen Twyman - he stood out when I watched some Pitt games in 2019. He didn’t play last year. Seems raw but talented. I’m Curious what you think about him.
I'll be back in the lab tomorrow night around 5:30-6 to finish my views on Vincent. Then I'll be on Patrick Jones, where I'm sure I'll get a peek at Twyman. After that I have Grant, per @gumby73's request and then I'll wrap up with Daivyon Nixon sometime end of next week.
But what I see, I'll let you know.
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I have a couple more games to wrap up with KVJ. After that I'm moving onto Patrick Jones, but when I do I'll put Grant on deck.
Patrick Jones teammate Jaylen Twyman - he stood out when I watched some Pitt games in 2019. He didn’t play last year. Seems raw but talented. I’m Curious what you think about him.
Patrick Jones teammate Jaylen Twyman - he stood out when I watched some Pitt games in 2019. He didn’t play last year. Seems raw but talented. I’m Curious what you think about him.
tia's going back to front... cause it's his thang.
Imma go front to back cause DBs ain't my thang, but I can hang with DL and LBs.
We'll meet in the middle
It's neat to focus on the D-side for a change.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
We'll be back in the lab tomorrow (Thursday) around 5:30-6pm EST. Going to finish up watching Vincent with LSU v UF & LSU v Bama (might sneak in v Clemson depending on what I see)
Should anyone wish to join in on this with discord.
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We'll be back in the lab tomorrow (Thursday) around 5:30-6pm EST. Going to finish up watching Vincent with LSU v UF & LSU v Bama (might sneak in v Clemson depending on what I see)
Should anyone wish to join in on this with discord.
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We'll be back in the lab tomorrow (Thursday) around 5:30-6pm EST. Going to finish up watching Vincent with LSU v UF & LSU v Bama (might sneak in v Clemson depending on what I see)
Should anyone wish to join in on this with discord.
Should anyone wish to join in on this with discord.
You probably have noticed I signed up, but not going to join in live sessions until I get some homework done...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
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