***DIVISIONAL ROUND: Browns AT Chiefs Gameday Thread***
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The issue is when your explosive plays given up rises commensurately with the blitz rate. When the Browns sent 5 men or more this year, the pressure rate increase was marginal at best.
I don't think sending a 5th or 6th immediately exposes a secondary. But I think (know) it immediately exposes the Browns secondary. Because outside of Ward and Mitch, they're really not starting quality. Does it hurt a team like the Rams? No, they have starting quality DB's across the board. We can't say the same here in CLE, sadly.
Personnel is your first and foremost concern with this defense. Any conversation to changes beyond that without addressing the former is just spinning wheels.
We had some explosive plays our way when we pressured too. One of the few plays we made on defense in week 17 was a pressure and a pick. And we had some explosive plays the other way with 7 guys back and miscommunication- see the Jets game. I lost count here but we seemingly had enough communication breakdowns in our secondary to fill a 2-3 seasons.
So we are better off watching a guy like Joseph try in coverage 90% of the time vs. 70% of the time- where he creeps up to the LOS more often and chasing down the QB?
When you communicate like we did in the back 7 I think you help a guy more the less time he has to spend trailing in coverage.
I know we have personnel issues but I’m talking myself more and more into hoping we land an impact front 4 player.
We had some explosive plays our way when we pressured too. One of the few plays we made on defense in week 17 was a pressure and a pick. And we had some explosive plays the other way with 7 guys back and miscommunication- see the Jets game. I lost count here but we seemingly had enough communication breakdowns in our secondary to fill a 2-3 seasons.
So we are better off watching a guy like Joseph try in coverage 90% of the time vs. 70% of the time- where he creeps up to the LOS more often and chasing down the QB?
When you communicate like we did in the back 7 I think you help a guy more the less time he has to spend trailing in coverage.
I know we have personnel issues but I’m talking myself more and more into hoping we land an impact front 4 player.
Then you have to take into consideration game dependent plans as well. Scheming additonal pressure against Mason Rudolph here and there sound gravy.
Doing that against Mahomes? Last I checked, on the 2020 season against the blitz he's 13TD, 0INT's for a 138.8 rating. Sending additional bodies against that man is football suicide.
Lost in all of this is that it was the offense, not the defense, who really shipped away yesterdays game.
The Change from C1 to C2 (the most noticeable one for me) is huge. The safeties have way less field to cover. It also changed from the "big play to Sendejo and TD" approach to shorter passes of 5-10 yards, and I think that helped the team.
I feel like Woods has been all season long juggling in order to hide the personnel problems of the defense. We have had games where they got really few points and other ones where they were exposed, and the only consistent pattern I see is the defenders executing or not.
The ammount of INTs the secondary has dropped tells you a lot about the quality of the group.
I wouldn't go that far. My experience is that if you cant get off the hashes, playing a lot of 2man MOTO can be just as shitty an idea. So if you have 2 questionable players on the backend, the problem can be magnified in different ways. So you can play some form of 2 shell and scheme up different spot drop depths when you go zone. Maybe I'm able to carry receivers up the seam or up the perimeter a bit farther to help my safeties out. But when you run into a team like KC who was finally willing to work the underneath game.... Well, then that becomes the trade off.
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Wanted to say I appreciate the exhange. Even if we end up disagreeing, I'm good hearing rational opposing viewpoints.
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Wanted to say I appreciate the exhange. Even if we end up disagreeing, I'm good hearing rational opposing viewpoints.
Wanted to say I appreciate the exhange. Even if we end up disagreeing, I'm good hearing rational opposing viewpoints.
Me too. The Browns are headed in the right direction I think we all can agree there.
Im happy we aren’t all arguing over HC, GM, QB options as we normally are during this time.
Issues we have now are not insurmountable
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I have to say i have never in my life seen the middle of the field open like we’ve had all year and just 4 guys after the passer.
anyone with me here?
I have to say i have never in my life seen the middle of the field open like we’ve had all year and just 4 guys after the passer.
anyone with me here?
our dc sucks......
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Some thoughts:
We shoulda' won that game. We squandered a golden opportunity with their star QB knocked out of the game. Going down the stretch, both sides of the ball let the team down, collectively.
Wills went out, Lamm promptly went out, a guy named Blake wearing #62 was our left tackle. Nice! Conklin was no doubt not at 100% with the hamstring, but he HAD to play.
Myles Garret was playing injured.
Yet with all that, the game was there for the taking. A Championship Game appearance, stumbled away over the final 5 minutes.
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I have to say i have never in my life seen the middle of the field open like we’ve had all year and just 4 guys after the passer.
anyone with me here?
our dc sucks......
our dc sucks......
Not saying he is great, but he was severely hamstrung this year. Brand new, not a lot of prep time because of covid, and then add on the injuries/covid, and even then those guys just might not be starting caliber guys.
Sure, the Chiefs probably score over 30 with Mahomes, but they are the defending Champs and I think are still the favorite to repeat. You don't think that Woods and his gameplan had a thing to do with that? Especially when considering that there are 2 positions on the D that aren't looked at as major needs? Garrett and Ward.
There is nobody individually in the league that can hold Hill, the closest would be Ramsey. But if you double him, they also have the best TE in the league. They are a GREAT offense of talent and a great mind at HC and OC. How Bieniemy doesn't have a HC job is crazy.
Running a zone defense is what you do predominantly when you are overmatched. And don't forget, that even if he isn't brought back (I wouldn't with his price tag and having other guys to prioritize resigning and extensions) that Vernon was playing a big part, especially when you factor in Myles just wasn't the same guy after Covid.
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Goodbye Joe Woods. Not sorry to see you go.
This needs movement. Somewhat unpopular opinion around here though.
This needs movement. Somewhat unpopular opinion around here though.
It's funny because he does some good things but he chokes too often in critical scenarios. I can't get over the 4th down numbers, the 3rd and 10 against McSorely, and the 3rd and longs with Henne. I'm not sure he has what it takes.
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This needs movement. Somewhat unpopular opinion around here though.
It's funny because he does some good things but he chokes too often in critical scenarios. I can't get over the 4th down numbers, the 3rd and 10 against McSorely, and the 3rd and longs with Henne. I'm not sure he has what it takes.
It's funny because he does some good things but he chokes too often in critical scenarios. I can't get over the 4th down numbers, the 3rd and 10 against McSorely, and the 3rd and longs with Henne. I'm not sure he has what it takes.
Teams were 27 for 32 on 4th down this year against the Browns...that’s bad.
and I saw Lots of finger pointing on blown coverages all year.
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So apparently mahomes doesn't have a concussion, a surgeon who also covers the steelers tweeted today that his uneasiness could be attributed to a vasogal response and his blood pressure dropped. The chiefs are saying pinched nerve. I was hoping to watch them flounder with Henne under center.
AKA SNATCH98 or Rorbotron. The boards glorious admins decided to get cute and change my name to "homotron" Classy group of people. (Lost a bet with Columbus king and got banned for a month) -
Browns' Myles Garrett denies teammates were 'headhunting' amid Patrick Mahomes injury
Chiefs tight end Travis Kelce made the claim after the win, telling reporters he heard Browns players yelling, "That’s what we do. That’s what we do."
Sam McDowell@SamMcDowell11Travis Kelce said after the initial hit on Mahomes, Browns players were yelling, "That's what we do. That's what we do.""I want to say that nobody on our team is headhunting, going after guys or trying to hurt a guy, no matter how good he is," Garrett said, via 92.3 The Fan. "We are praying for [Mahomes’] recovery and praying for his success. He has always been a quality guy and the way he does stuff for the community. He is a leader on and off the field that you appreciate seeing, especially from a guy of that caliber and just always trying to be a positive force everywhere he goes."
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What if Chiefs punted on 4th down? Browns have around 1 minute and no T'O's to go 80 to maybe 98 yards. Chances of scoring a td are what? Maybe 5% at best...
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The throw too. Talk about game of inches. He had to fully extend to have a chance with his DB jacket on. I think the ball grazed the defender’s hand or came really really close.
Some props to Njoku too who seemed to play the part of TE 1 today.
For sure! I have never been so happy to be so wrong regarding Baker. He's our dude for the next 7-10 years and he is good enough to win a Super Bowl if we can put a defense around him.
For sure! I have never been so happy to be so wrong regarding Baker. He's our dude for the next 7-10 years and he is good enough to win a Super Bowl if we can put a defense around him.
Pretty sure that would constitute "too many men on the field."
my 53 years of life
No wonder those 30-something riders get pissed.
You're right, he was down. Went and watched it again... Mack knocked the ball out just after he hit the ground, that's what I saw.
Knee was down... ground knocked the ball loose momentarily and Mahommes reflexively pulled it back to him.
Last part was actually quite impressive considering the stars he was seeing at that moment.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Of course he won't, but there was some confusion about who someone who Gipper was replying to was talking about. So that is where the question came from.
No doubt that he is special, and I think he fits on any team, but WR just isn't a need on this team. So if Smith is left, but you also have 3 d guys left rated in 1st round, I take the D guy
Depends on the defensive player, position and where I have them ranked in their said position group. Smith is WR #1 in this draft. If I get the best player to fall to me (without medical concern) and my option is him against, let's say the 5th rated LB? - then I'm taking the receiver.
This defense needs help, zero doubt about that and I'm sure my amateur eyes will find some great additions day 2 and beyond. But the offense is what cost the Browns a date with Buffalo. Don't be so quick to dismiss our need for a true perimeter threat, especially if ODB doesn't come back healthy.
Depends on the defensive player, position and where I have them ranked in their said position group. Smith is WR #1 in this draft. If I get the best player to fall to me (without medical concern) and my option is him against, let's say the 5th rated LB? - then I'm taking the receiver.
Whole thing was a hypothetical I put up as rebuttal to posts for us to reflexively take the BPA on the defensive side when our first round pick rolls around.
But the offense is what cost the Browns a date with Buffalo. Don't be so quick to dismiss our need for a true perimeter threat, especially if ODB doesn't come back healthy.
We're lockstep on this...
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I agree, but I am basing that off of OBJ being back. If he is gone then absolutely. But again it depends on what is left.
There's a lot that will go into such a decision between now and the draft.
But there's a couple things yesterday hightlighted.
- Defenses don't fear our speed
- In order to utilize the misdirection and sweeps like KC does, we're going to need our... How did @tour2ma put it? "Jitterbug" receiver.
Chiefs didn't have to do it much with Hardman, only a few times. But those few times really contributes to slowing down edge rush and widening out/freezing linebackers. Stef would be wise in this copycat league to make those sorts of instant offense plays a priority in the off-season.
But there's a couple things yesterday hightlighted.
- Defenses don't fear our speed
- In order to utilize the misdirection and sweeps like KC does, we're going to need our... How did @tour2ma put it? "Jitterbug" receiver.
Yup...Never more in evidence than our that pathetic "Jet sweep" with Landry we tried yesterday.
And why we were trying to run wide escapes me. I think we had one successful sweep... the one to the right with Tretter and Teller pulling.
Obviously the need for speed is true on our D-side as well. Especially in at least 4 of our back 7. Hopefully Delpit makes it 3... Greedy could make it 2, but... Greedy...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Absolutely but what’s the next move when your front 4 can’t get enough pressure?
I found myself surprised throughout the year at different points when we let a guy like Mike Glennon sit in a pocket for 6 seconds each play for 60 minutes.
I see this sit back and have an extra guy vs blitz scenario a little differently...you think it’s exposing a secondary when you take a guy away from coverage. I see bringing an extra blitzer as a way to force an errant throw or get a sack or a throwaway and force a punt...we know we don’t force many of those right? Throughout the year our extra guy or two in coverage seemingly couldn’t find WRs or impact throwing lanes.
The other issue is a personnel issue...I like Joseph but aside from the fair catch INT he had I really don’t like him in a role of reading the field and playing coverage...so I’d prefer he attack the QB more. it’s not Woods fault that Delpit went out but your job sometimes is to turn chicken $h!t into chicken salad.
The issue is when your explosive plays given up rises commensurately with the blitz rate. When the Browns sent 5 men or more this year, the pressure rate increase was marginal at best. So if my return on investment isn't worth it, then I'm kind of fucked... no?
You'll notice a small shift in defensive philosophy over the second half of the season. Remember all the single high looks Sendejo and Joesph were being burned on? Those started to not be so noticeable the last 8 weeks, huh? That's because, in getting away from the C3 and C1 alignments Woods favored in Denver, went went to more C2, C6 and quarters here hoping to limit....wait for it... our DB's (not named Ward or Mitch) exposure as much as he possibly could. So there is a self-awareness the man has of his own roster and what he was able to call reliably this season. Hint - it wasn't much.
I don't think sending a 5th or 6th immediately exposes a secondary. But I think (know) it immediately exposes the Browns secondary. Because outside of Ward and Mitch, they're really not starting quality. Does it hurt a team like the Rams? No, they have starting quality DB's across the board. We can't say the same here in CLE, sadly.
Personnel is your first and foremost concern with this defense. Any conversation to changes beyond that without addressing the former is just spinning wheels.
The issue is when your explosive plays given up rises commensurately with the blitz rate. When the Browns sent 5 men or more this year, the pressure rate increase was marginal at best. So if my return on investment isn't worth it, then I'm kind of fucked... no?
Absolutely... but the less frequent the blitz the more effective it should be... element of surprise and all that.
But surprise is simply not enough. You've got to disguise and design to generate a free runner... and that free runner has to be fast, yet come under control.
Excepting maybe Phillips, that combo is not in our LB room and excepting Ward, Harrison and maybe Mitchell, it is not in our 2ndary either. Not to mention that you'd prefer not to blitz one of your best cover guys.
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So apparently mahomes doesn't have a concussion, a surgeon who also covers the steelers tweeted today that his uneasiness could be attributed to a vasogal response and his blood pressure dropped. The chiefs are saying pinched nerve. I was hoping to watch them flounder with Henne under center.
attributed to a vasogal response
I would think you of all people would know how to spell Vagisil...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Given the defensive personnel, I do not think any coordinator could make this defense great. We need to upgrade the linebackers and Sendejo at a minimum
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This needs movement. Somewhat unpopular opinion around here though.
It's funny because he does some good things but he chokes too often in critical scenarios. I can't get over the 4th down numbers, the 3rd and 10 against McSorely, and the 3rd and longs with Henne. I'm not sure he has what it takes.
It's funny because he does some good things but he chokes too often in critical scenarios. I can't get over the 4th down numbers, the 3rd and 10 against McSorely, and the 3rd and longs with Henne. I'm not sure he has what it takes.
If we believe we can improve upon Joe Woods, then I am sure we will, but as has been known since before our game one kickoff, we were "making do" on our D-side this season.
The real question is what path did our D follow threw this season? Did it improve or did it decline? The answers are made more difficult to determine by Covid atop the usual injury impacts, but I don't think they are unknowable.
I'm satisfied that the improvement was there. So personally I have no issue with us seeing what Woods can do with more tools and a full TC and preseason to learn what his squad can and cannot do.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I would think you of all people would know how to spell Vagisil...
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I'm actually talking about a real medical event tho. The chiefs are saying pinched nerve and his wooziness is attributed to that and not his head hitting the ground SO your take that it didn't hit very hard is accurate.
AKA SNATCH98 or Rorbotron. The boards glorious admins decided to get cute and change my name to "homotron" Classy group of people. (Lost a bet with Columbus king and got banned for a month)
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