Browns' offensive line - best in the NFL
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The far to few Bill Callahan articles.. https://www.brownsnation.com/is-bill-callahan-the-best-assistant-coach-in-the-nfl/ and Yes! I'd cast my vote for Callahan
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I don't know if it is the best or not, but I know it is pretty darn good, so that's good enough for me so I don't care where we rank on some subjective list.
Now that we are very good in that area, I hope we continue to add drafted players every year, and not just some Spencer Drango type 6th rounder. Hudson this year was a good pick for the future.
Keep drafting someone in the first 4 rounds and lets stay good in both starters and depth. At some point you might be able to skip a year, but with 5 players on the unit, the odds are good that nearly every year you are going to have at least 1 in a contract situation. We are bound to experience some turn over along the line, so having a plug a play player seems wise to me.
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It's driving me nutz that former Browns/KC C Austin Reiter is just sitting out there as a FA..
Reiter was coached by Bill Callahan in Washington as their 7th round pick... (can ya tell !)
May a player like Reiter be sitting out there this late next season...? ? Especially... if Tretter is considering retirement after the 2021 season?
Browns & Buffett: Got to go fishin, Down to rock bottom again, with just a few Friends -
Perhaps @unsympathetic can help me digest the numbers. That admittedly isn't my area. But I believe Bitonio has no guaranteed money and no dead money after this season correct?
If so, I ask why would the Browns not be more inclined to extend a 25 year old wyatt as opposed to a 31 year old Bito...?
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It's driving me nutz that former Browns/KC C Austin Reiter is just sitting out there as a FA..
Reiter was coached by Bill Callahan in Washington as their 7th round pick... (can ya tell !)
May a player like Reiter be sitting out there this late next season...? ? Especially... if Tretter is considering retirement after the 2021 season?
It's driving me nutz that former Browns/KC C Austin Reiter is just sitting out there as a FA..
Reiter was coached by Bill Callahan in Washington as their 7th round pick... (can ya tell !)
May a player like Reiter be sitting out there this late next season...? ? Especially... if Tretter is considering retirement after the 2021 season?
I liked Reiter when he was here. I don't know if he was answer anything or not.
I don't know it Tretter is thinking of retiring, but I doubt he is here next year, so center is a spot we will need to fill. I know we drafted Nick Harris a couple of years ago with him being eyed as a center replacement. I couldn't say he will be the answer, but the team seems to like him so he will at the least get a shot. Bitonio is another I don't expect back, so we will have some holes to fill. I expect Wyatt will get signed with "Bitonio" money, and the team has been looking at Hudson at guard some, so maybe he fills the other spot.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. -
Perhaps @unsympathetic can help me digest the numbers. That admittedly isn't my area. But I believe Bitonio has no guaranteed money and no dead money after this season correct?
If so, I ask why would the Browns not be more inclined to extend a 25 year old wyatt as opposed to a 31 year old Bito...?
Perhaps @unsympathetic can help me digest the numbers. That admittedly isn't my area. But I believe Bitonio has no guaranteed money and no dead money after this season correct?
If so, I ask why would the Browns not be more inclined to extend a 25 year old wyatt as opposed to a 31 year old Bito...?
Bito's contract is 9.97 and 10.0 the next 2 seasons w no dead if cut. I'd resign him ASAP - or perhaps Berry will push his resigning over more years for generating room under the cap for the younger guys. Note that Bito was PFF's #3-rated OL last season at 86.2 so let's don't call him declining quite yet..
Teller was named the NFL's most improved player for 2020 by PFF. Teller also led the league in 2020 in performance-based pay which amounted to about a 25% raise, a little-discussed side effect of the collective bargaining agreement which increases salary for guys who outperform their contract.
Issue is consistency as well as passpro which Teller is at best average .. perhaps Callahan can coach him up; perhaps not. You don't want to give him an extension only to see him revert to prior averages. Interestingly Teller entered the league better at passpro than runblock. Teller had a better 2020 than Bito - at runblocking but not at passpro..
. Also, Teller got engaged on the field of FirstEnergy mid-week before Christmas this past year.. so I'd guess he wants to stick around. -
It's driving me nutz that former Browns/KC C Austin Reiter is just sitting out there as a FA..
Reiter was coached by Bill Callahan in Washington as their 7th round pick... (can ya tell !)
May a player like Reiter be sitting out there this late next season...? ? Especially... if Tretter is considering retirement after the 2021 season?
I liked Reiter when he was here. I don't know if he was answer anything or not.
I don't know it Tretter is thinking of retiring, but I doubt he is here next year, so center is a spot we will need to fill. I know we drafted Nick Harris a couple of years ago with him being eyed as a center replacement. I couldn't say he will be the answer, but the team seems to like him so he will at the least get a shot. Bitonio is another I don't expect back, so we will have some holes to fill. I expect Wyatt will get signed with "Bitonio" money, and the team has been looking at Hudson at guard some, so maybe he fills the other spot.
I liked Reiter when he was here. I don't know if he was answer anything or not.
One start in 2 years... What was there to like?
Couldn't beat out Tretter... left for KC where he got hurt before returning to anchor one of the league's worst OLs until the 2021 housecleaning.
Teller's a roadgrading beast... we can afford to give up a little PassPro for his running game proficiency.
Biggest questions for Harris are his strength and anchoring vs. bigger NTs. It will be interesting to see if weight room time has paid off. If it has, then only making line calls, something Tretter does really well, remains to be seen.
If so, I ask why would the Browns not be more inclined to extend a 25 year old wyatt as opposed to a 31 year old Bito...?
Good question... could be that as one of the longest tenured Browns and a consistently high performer to boot, he's earned a dose of FO loyalty.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I liked Reiter when he was here. I don't know if he was answer anything or not.
One start in 2 years... What was there to like?
Couldn't beat out Tretter... left for KC where he got hurt before returning to anchor one of the league's worst OLs until the 2021 housecleaning.
Teller's a roadgrading beast... we can afford to give up a little PassPro for his running game proficiency.
Biggest questions for Harris are his strength and anchoring vs. bigger NTs. It will be interesting to see if weight room time has paid off. If it has, then only making line calls, something Tretter does really well, remains to be seen.
If so, I ask why would the Browns not be more inclined to extend a 25 year old wyatt as opposed to a 31 year old Bito...?
Good question... could be that as one of the longest tenured Browns and a consistently high performer to boot, he's earned a dose of FO loyalty.
One start in 2 years... What was there to like?
Couldn't beat out Tretter... left for KC where he got hurt before returning to anchor one of the league's worst OLs until the 2021 housecleaning.
Teller's a roadgrading beast... we can afford to give up a little PassPro for his running game proficiency.
Biggest questions for Harris are his strength and anchoring vs. bigger NTs. It will be interesting to see if weight room time has paid off. If it has, then only making line calls, something Tretter does really well, remains to be seen.
Good question... could be that as one of the longest tenured Browns and a consistently high performer to boot, he's earned a dose of FO loyalty.
Don't misunderstand. I don't want to sign Reiter.. I thought he was a decent back-up while here. As for Harris, I agree. He hasn't played enough to really know much about the guy. As I said, the team seems to .like him and he will probably get the best shot at Treeters position. I do think that once Treeter is gone for one reason or another we will take steps to bring in another center, be it some drafted player or free agent player, due to the question marks surrounding Harris.
As for Teller, I hope i didn't give the impression I don't want him signed. As I said, I don't see bitonio here after this year. Teller takes his money slot . We can get something worked out for this year. I'd sign Teller by 11AM this morning.
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Well said ballbeen^^^
Either way we have to prepare for Bitonio or Tretter's 'hit the age out wall' or large contracts..Teller is a contract we will need at R or LG ..Conklin is not the health'est 26 year old either..
3 studs or duds... holding our futures OL keys ?️... Drew Forbes.. Nick Harris... James Hudson.. Coached up by Bill Callahan in 2021
Stay Tuned... ?
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Well said ballbeen^^^
Either way we have to prepare for Bitonio or Tretter's 'hit the age out wall' or large contracts..Teller is a contract we will need at R or LG ..Conklin is not the health'est 26 year old either..
3 studs or duds... holding our futures OL keys ?️... Drew Forbes.. Nick Harris... James Hudson.. Coached up by Bill Callahan in 2021
Stay Tuned... ?
I realize that drafting for needs isn't the focus of this FO group, and I agree, but I wouldn't be shocked to see a O lineman being selected early in the draft, like 1st round
I say that because we should be drafting fairly late in the draft and at that position, you typically find value with players who play guard, center, and RT, so it fits a potential need.
The Steelers did that for years, draft late and keep taking O line players. They also didn't miss much of a beat when they had to plug and play. O line impacts the QB and running backs, and indirectly the receivers.. If the QB is kept clean, he impacts the receivers.
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When talking about "Position X in the first!" need to keep in mind.. The next guy available at that position [either OT or OG] may not have a first-round grade... and thus we would need to switch over to whoever has the athleticism worthy of the first-round pick. Think buckets of roughly equivalent prospects [to switch between as needed] rather than "the slot" determining something magical - picks 17 and 19 are likely roughly equivalent pre-draft and the difference would thus be whatever the team really wanted.
This switching isn't always a negative -- I saw zero mockdrafts that had Newsome falling all the way to our pick; he was a consensus top-15. You may think this [good player falling to our draft slot] couldn't happen again, but Ozzie Newsome became a Hall of Fame GM w BAL by every year not trading up and simply taking whatever consensus top player everyone else had allowed to fall further than expected.
As well, the decision on resigning OL [or any position, really] likely starts by looking at players who fit the athletic profile we're looking to have in our team who are interested in signing as FA and/or are available in draft, comparing those against the current starter's dollar ask in negotiations, and ensuring any other big known moves at other spots [signing Johnson, for example] continued to have the required cap space. An example of a player profile we don't keep on our roster is a run-defense-only DL.. all of our DI have achieved above-average penetration earlier in their career.
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When talking about "Position X in the first!" need to keep in mind.. The next guy available at that position [either OT or OG] may not have a first-round grade... and thus we would need to switch over to whoever has the athleticism worthy of the first-round pick. Think buckets of roughly equivalent prospects [to switch between as needed] rather than "the slot" determining something magical - picks 17 and 19 are likely roughly equivalent pre-draft and the difference would thus be whatever the team really wanted.
This switching isn't always a negative -- I saw zero mockdrafts that had Newsome falling all the way to our pick; he was a consensus top-15. You may think this [good player falling to our draft slot] couldn't happen again, but Ozzie Newsome became a Hall of Fame GM w BAL by every year not trading up and simply taking whatever consensus top player everyone else had allowed to fall further than expected.
As well, the decision on resigning OL [or any position, really] likely starts by looking at players who fit the athletic profile we're looking to have in our team who are interested in signing as FA and/or are available in draft, comparing those against the current starter's dollar ask in negotiations, and ensuring any other big known moves at other spots [signing Johnson, for example] continued to have the required cap space. An example of a player profile we don't keep on our roster is a run-defense-only DL.. all of our DI have achieved above-average penetration earlier in their career.
When talking about "Position X in the first!" need to keep in mind.. The next guy available at that position [either OT or OG] may not have a first-round grade... and thus we would need to switch over to whoever has the athleticism worthy of the first-round pick. Think buckets of roughly equivalent prospects [to switch between as needed] rather than "the slot" determining something magical - picks 17 and 19 are likely roughly equivalent pre-draft and the difference would thus be whatever the team really wanted.
As well, the decision on resigning OL [or any position, really] likely starts by looking at players who fit the athletic profile we're looking to have in our team who are interested in signing as FA and/or are available in draft..
I was elated with the picks of Newsome/JOK & Togiai... But Anthony Schwartz better come out swagging a De'Sean Jackson type WR or we may have whiffed on some highly ranked lineman in the 3rd round.. I can't say Schwartz would have still been there in the 4th as Hudson was..
https://www.nfl.com/draft/tracker/picks?round=3&year=2021 time will tell...
Browns & Buffett: Got to go fishin, Down to rock bottom again, with just a few Friends -
When talking about "Position X in the first!" need to keep in mind.. The next guy available at that position [either OT or OG] may not have a first-round grade... and thus we would need to switch over to whoever has the athleticism worthy of the first-round pick. Think buckets of roughly equivalent prospects [to switch between as needed] rather than "the slot" determining something magical - picks 17 and 19 are likely roughly equivalent pre-draft and the difference would thus be whatever the team really wanted.
As well, the decision on resigning OL [or any position, really] likely starts by looking at players who fit the athletic profile we're looking to have in our team who are interested in signing as FA and/or are available in draft..
I was elated with the picks of Newsome/JOK & Togiai... But Anthony Schwartz better come out swagging a De'Sean Jackson type WR or we may have whiffed on some highly ranked lineman in the 3rd round.. I can't say Schwartz would have still been there in the 4th as Hudson was..
https://www.nfl.com/draft/tracker/picks?round=3&year=2021 time will tell...
I was elated with the picks of Newsome/JOK & Togiai... But Anthony Schwartz better come out swagging a De'Sean Jackson type WR or we may have whiffed on some highly ranked lineman in the 3rd round.. I can't say Schwartz would have still been there in the 4th as Hudson was..
https://www.nfl.com/draft/tracker/picks?round=3&year=2021 time will tell...
Tyreek Hill was mostly a kr when he came to the Chiefs - he had even been labeled a possible UDFA. Anthony IS a wr from the gitgo, even though he has a lot to learn, too. I expect to see Scwartz make a big difference with the Browns - not sure if he will be pressed into big productivity as soon.
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When talking about "Position X in the first!" need to keep in mind.. The next guy available at that position [either OT or OG] may not have a first-round grade... and thus we would need to switch over to whoever has the athleticism worthy of the first-round pick. Think buckets of roughly equivalent prospects [to switch between as needed] rather than "the slot" determining something magical - picks 17 and 19 are likely roughly equivalent pre-draft and the difference would thus be whatever the team really wanted.
As well, the decision on resigning OL [or any position, really] likely starts by looking at players who fit the athletic profile we're looking to have in our team who are interested in signing as FA and/or are available in draft..
I was elated with the picks of Newsome/JOK & Togiai... But Anthony Schwartz better come out swagging a De'Sean Jackson type WR or we may have whiffed on some highly ranked lineman in the 3rd round.. I can't say Schwartz would have still been there in the 4th as Hudson was..
https://www.nfl.com/draft/tracker/picks?round=3&year=2021 time will tell...
I was elated with the picks of Newsome/JOK & Togiai... But Anthony Schwartz better come out swagging a De'Sean Jackson type WR or we may have whiffed on some highly ranked lineman in the 3rd round.. I can't say Schwartz would have still been there in the 4th as Hudson was..
https://www.nfl.com/draft/tracker/picks?round=3&year=2021 time will tell...
I don't agree he needs to be a Jackson out of the gate. I think the one component the O lacked was a true speed guy outside. I think he can bring a lot to the O even if much of it is unseen in the production stats. All it is going to take is for him to start beating guys deep, caught ball or not, to keep a safety shading his side of the field. It isn't a sound defensive strategy to count on a dropped ball or a poor pass from the QB to act as your safety. He may only catch a handful of deep balls, but he can probably triple the number of plays where he opens things for other players, so I wouldn't get all that hung up on the box score.
I would also expect to see him getting a lot of off coverage by corners to compensate for his speed,. Enough so that he should get a lot of quick hit opportunities that he and Baker can pitch and catch it 5-6 yards at a time right down the field.
As always with speed receivers, the ability to focus and actually catch the ball will tell the story. Sometimes those speed guys start to think about running with their speed a fraction early rather than waiting to actually secure the ball.
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Pass Block Win Rate - all OL - projected for 2021. It's a good read because Cleveland is #1 and the free part of the ESPN+ article lets you read only our section. Wills as a rookie is top10 individual PBWR among all OT. Conklin is tied for OT#1 and Bito is OG#1 alone. [Not that we needed more reasons to resign Bito..]
If you have ESPN+, let us know any highlights from the rest of the article..
"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
Maybe a bit off topic from your excellent point and post, but I doubt we sign Bitonio.
First is his age. He is a bit old from the standard, but that doesn't mean the standard can't be adjusted as required. Bitonio plays a position they typically enjoys longer career, unlike a RB as an example. It's not unusual to see O-linemen playing well in to their late 30's.
I think more on point will be a function of money. The timing on Bitonio is a bit off. By that I mean we have a QB and running back to sign, and a younger guard in Teller to sign. Even with a expanding cap, I am not sure we can get him fit in to the cap pie. I didn't mention that depending on how he plays, we may even want to ty to fit Clowney in to that pie.
We might find a creative way, or maybe Bitonio is willing to sign a undervalued contract to stay in Cleveland, but I'd say the chances are pretty low that happens.
I don't like it, but we have a good team now and good teams lose good players all the time because of money allocation issues. teams have to weigh out who they would rather keep and who needs to go to keep that player. If it comes down to Bitonio or Teller, who do you keep?
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. -
Maybe a bit off topic from your excellent point and post, but I doubt we sign Bitonio.
First is his age. He is a bit old from the standard, but that doesn't mean the standard can't be adjusted as required. Bitonio plays a position they typically enjoys longer career, unlike a RB as an example. It's not unusual to see O-linemen playing well in to their late 30's.
I think more on point will be a function of money. The timing on Bitonio is a bit off. By that I mean we have a QB and running back to sign, and a younger guard in Teller to sign. Even with a expanding cap, I am not sure we can get him fit in to the cap pie. I didn't mention that depending on how he plays, we may even want to ty to fit Clowney in to that pie.
We might find a creative way, or maybe Bitonio is willing to sign a undervalued contract to stay in Cleveland, but I'd say the chances are pretty low that happens.
I don't like it, but we have a good team now and good teams lose good players all the time because of money allocation issues. teams have to weigh out who they would rather keep and who needs to go to keep that player. If it comes down to Bitonio or Teller, who do you keep?
If it comes down to Bitonio or Teller, who do you keep?
On the surface, it seems that a choice between two very good OGs should be the younger one with his career ahead of him.
The problem is that Teller has had ONE very good NFL season, and in that one very good NFL season he was injury-prone.
To me, that makes the question difficult to answer today. Maybe at the end of the season it will become clearer.
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If it comes down to Bitonio or Teller, who do you keep?
On the surface, it seems that a choice between two very good OGs should be the younger one with his career ahead of him.
The problem is that Teller has had ONE very good NFL season, and in that one very good NFL season he was injury-prone.
To me, that makes the question difficult to answer today. Maybe at the end of the season it will become clearer.
On the surface, it seems that a choice between two very good OGs should be the younger one with his career ahead of him.
The problem is that Teller has had ONE very good NFL season, and in that one very good NFL season he was injury-prone.
To me, that makes the question difficult to answer today. Maybe at the end of the season it will become clearer.
I don't disagree. I almost said some of the same things. I think Tellers play will determine that question as well.
Two points...Is Teller injury prone, or did he get injured? There is a difference. The other point is for Offensive linemen, "fluke" good years out of young players is pretty rare. It's hard to "luck" into good blocks, so I don't think what we saw is some one and done so to speak....yes, I know you didn't say that. I just felt that needed to be added.
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The two players just aren't identical. Teller is a passpro liability; Bito is the best passblocking OG in the league.
It's harder to become good at passpro later in your career after not doing it for your career's first multiple years.. when all players are their most athletic.
If I have to choose, I'm taking Bito because he's very good at both run&pass. Everyone else on the OL [even Wills] is a top-tier passblocker; Teller simply isn't and so I think Bito gets resigned.
Don't get me wrong: They very well could restructure people [or not resign Hubbard if they're comfortable with the progress of the guys making under 1m as the backups, etc] and get the younger Teller for 7,8/yr and the same for a re-upping for Bito after 2022. But if the question is one and only one player, for me that has to be Bito.. he retires as a Brown.
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Pass Block Win Rate - all OL - projected for 2021. It's a good read because Cleveland is #1 and the free part of the ESPN+ article lets you read only our section. Wills as a rookie is top10 individual PBWR among all OT. Conklin is tied for OT#1 and Bito is OG#1 alone. [Not that we needed more reasons to resign Bito..]
If you have ESPN+, let us know any highlights from the rest of the article..
Pass Block Win Rate - all OL - projected for 2021. It's a good read because Cleveland is #1 and the free part of the ESPN+ article lets you read only our section. Wills as a rookie is top10 individual PBWR among all OT. Conklin is tied for OT#1 and Bito is OG#1 alone. [Not that we needed more reasons to resign Bito..]
If you have ESPN+, let us know any highlights from the rest of the article..
Wills is a rewind from here...
Teller's passing footwork does become a issue vs blitz & speed rush..Power he's a Taz on wheels.. OL-men on NFL pass-pro islands aren't all Joe Thomas's either.. But as this tape^^ shows? Were not bad playing as a OL *unit.. Watch where Tretter's eyes go to help side(2:36)... Watch Teller's pull during Tretter's breakdown ?
Teller knows he not a finished product from a Callahan link...
“He stayed on my butt. He has made sure that I know that I have a lot to work at and a lot to improve.”
Berry can't pay top guard money to a guard that struggles in pass blocking... But he does have 17 more games to watch ?..and a trade deadline, November. At 4 pm on November 2 all trading for the 2021 season will stop. Which happens to fall after Zona/Denver/Pittsburgh
needless to say...It's a huge contract season for Wyatt Teller
and Go big...VT Hokie!
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