Great Master Plan, "Mangenius"
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They're talking about BQ being the starting QB for us on fcuking U.S Open coverage.
You sacrificed 1st team reps for NOTHING other than your ego.
It also appears that you don't have as much control over your players as you think you do.
Your "competitive advantage" (if you ever even had one, as the entire league had Quinn pegged as the starter last week) just got flushed.
So, what exactly was it again that you were attempting to accomplish with your short bus car show?
"I like to quote myself." -Me -
From another thread:
Couple of things here... I've read a couple of posts on this subject (say 140-ish). And, frankly, I'm a little bored with the bitching. Everyone seems to be circling around the point that not naming a starting quarterback has no impact on the Vikings' preparation... or the guy who said that trying to create a small edge was somehow a slight, showing some lack of faith in his team - brilliant.
I try not to go to the coaching card (on every post, at least). But, I've been doing this stuff a long time. And, let me tell you, going into a defensive game plan without knowing who is going to start at QB matters. It matters a lot. Contingencies matter. Options matter. Personnel groupings matter. You have a finite number of snaps that you can run vs. the scout O. You have limited hours on the board or in the film room. Every time there is a "what if" out there, it takes time. It takes time in the classroom. It takes time on the practice field.
All of these little irritating things that Mangini does add up. The fact that he uses all 3 tight ends, 3 running backs, 4 or 5 wide receivers lined up all over the place. The fact that there is scant little film of the 5 actual offensive line starters (which he may change again by game day) working together. These are all individual pains in the ass for a defensive coach.
A defensive game plan is little more than a collection of tips and tells added to your base defense. You have some personnel groups to address, and everything else is a virtual fencing match of attacks and counter moves. The only ways to tip the scales of this otherwise balanced engagement is to constantly be on the attack (a methodology rife with danger) or be able to anticipate what your opponent is going to do next. Bill Belichick is a master of this approach. He has been known to use methods both extreme (and sometimes illegal) to pick up on the slightest tell. Read "The Education of a Coach" by David Halberstam. The obsession it takes to do the job is incredibly revealing.
But the point of all of this is that Childress' guys have to go into this with two scouting reports on quarterbacks. Two sets of tendencies, two sets of safety manipulations, two sets of cadences and pre-snap rituals (ask Tom Brady about what happens when a defense zeros in on your pre-snap ritual on any given Super Bowl Sunday... and see if he remembers what the Giants did to him... I'm sure parts of it are a little fuzzy).
Add to that, that the Vikings have to prep for 5 guys they're pretty sure are going to start on the O Line... but have rarely been seen together. The X,Y, and Z receivers seem to be in a state of constant flux, half the team seems to be suffering from rare mysterious ailments, and the #2 RB hasn't played since the first preseason game. Oh, and I'm pretty sure Leslie Frazier is aware that Eric Mangini is aware that Josh Cribbs was once a successful quarterback.
Each thing, on it's own, isn't a game changer. But add them all up and you end up with a defensive game plan that covers 40 pages but only has enough relevant content to fill one side of a cocktail napkin. Everything else is a guess. It's all what if's. You end up going over and over things that you'll never see. You're supposed to be filling out fact sheets, instead you're chasing ghosts. It's death by a thousand cuts. And it sucks.
I have to say, I'm far more in Mangini's camp on this one. Tell them nothing. Show them nothing. Take every advantage you can get, no matter how small. If the middle linebacker is going through a messy divorce, make your audible alert his soon-to-be-ex-wife's name. Team's got a speed back... hit him every play, ball or no ball... see how fast he is after he picks himself off the ground 70 times or so. Coming off knee surgery? Cut block him with a back, trap him... low... not to injure, just to make him hesitate. Rookie making a first start... call his number before every play, ID him. Hand signaling plays... steal 'em. Turn up the audio on the film, listen for audibles... even if I get one, I've got one.
Ah, anyway... I could go on and on. All I'm saying is, this quarterback thing is bothering everyone... including the Vikings, regardless of what they say.
-jj
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From another thread:
Couple of things here... I've read a couple of posts on this subject (say 140-ish). And, frankly, I'm a little bored with the bitching. Everyone seems to be circling around the point that not naming a starting quarterback has no impact on the Vikings' preparation... or the guy who said that trying to create a small edge was somehow a slight, showing some lack of faith in his team - brilliant.
I try not to go to the coaching card (on every post, at least). But, I've been doing this stuff a long time. And, let me tell you, going into a defensive game plan without knowing who is going to start at QB matters. It matters a lot. Contingencies matter. Options matter. Personnel groupings matter. You have a finite number of snaps that you can run vs. the scout O. You have limited hours on the board or in the film room. Every time there is a "what if" out there, it takes time. It takes time in the classroom. It takes time on the practice field.
All of these little irritating things that Mangini does add up. The fact that he uses all 3 tight ends, 3 running backs, 4 or 5 wide receivers lined up all over the place. The fact that there is scant little film of the 5 actual offensive line starters (which he may change again by game day) working together. These are all individual pains in the ass for a defensive coach.
A defensive game plan is little more than a collection of tips and tells added to your base defense. You have some personnel groups to address, and everything else is a virtual fencing match of attacks and counter moves. The only ways to tip the scales of this otherwise balanced engagement is to constantly be on the attack (a methodology rife with danger) or be able to anticipate what your opponent is going to do next. Bill Belichick is a master of this approach. He has been known to use methods both extreme (and sometimes illegal) to pick up on the slightest tell. Read "The Education of a Coach" by David Halberstam. The obsession it takes to do the job is incredibly revealing.
But the point of all of this is that Childress' guys have to go into this with two scouting reports on quarterbacks. Two sets of tendencies, two sets of safety manipulations, two sets of cadences and pre-snap rituals (ask Tom Brady about what happens when a defense zeros in on your pre-snap ritual on any given Super Bowl Sunday... and see if he remembers what the Giants did to him... I'm sure parts of it are a little fuzzy).
Add to that, that the Vikings have to prep for 5 guys they're pretty sure are going to start on the O Line... but have rarely been seen together. The X,Y, and Z receivers seem to be in a state of constant flux, half the team seems to be suffering from rare mysterious ailments, and the #2 RB hasn't played since the first preseason game. Oh, and I'm pretty sure Leslie Frazier is aware that Eric Mangini is aware that Josh Cribbs was once a successful quarterback.
Each thing, on it's own, isn't a game changer. But add them all up and you end up with a defensive game plan that covers 40 pages but only has enough relevant content to fill one side of a cocktail napkin. Everything else is a guess. It's all what if's. You end up going over and over things that you'll never see. You're supposed to be filling out fact sheets, instead you're chasing ghosts. It's death by a thousand cuts. And it sucks.
I have to say, I'm far more in Mangini's camp on this one. Tell them nothing. Show them nothing. Take every advantage you can get, no matter how small. If the middle linebacker is going through a messy divorce, make your audible alert his soon-to-be-ex-wife's name. Team's got a speed back... hit him every play, ball or no ball... see how fast he is after he picks himself off the ground 70 times or so. Coming off knee surgery? Cut block him with a back, trap him... low... not to injure, just to make him hesitate. Rookie making a first start... call his number before every play, ID him. Hand signaling plays... steal 'em. Turn up the audio on the film, listen for audibles... even if I get one, I've got one.
Ah, anyway... I could go on and on. All I'm saying is, this quarterback thing is bothering everyone... including the Vikings, regardless of what they say.
-jj
From another thread:
Couple of things here... I've read a couple of posts on this subject (say 140-ish). And, frankly, I'm a little bored with the bitching. Everyone seems to be circling around the point that not naming a starting quarterback has no impact on the Vikings' preparation... or the guy who said that trying to create a small edge was somehow a slight, showing some lack of faith in his team - brilliant.
I try not to go to the coaching card (on every post, at least). But, I've been doing this stuff a long time. And, let me tell you, going into a defensive game plan without knowing who is going to start at QB matters. It matters a lot. Contingencies matter. Options matter. Personnel groupings matter. You have a finite number of snaps that you can run vs. the scout O. You have limited hours on the board or in the film room. Every time there is a "what if" out there, it takes time. It takes time in the classroom. It takes time on the practice field.
All of these little irritating things that Mangini does add up. The fact that he uses all 3 tight ends, 3 running backs, 4 or 5 wide receivers lined up all over the place. The fact that there is scant little film of the 5 actual offensive line starters (which he may change again by game day) working together. These are all individual pains in the ass for a defensive coach.
A defensive game plan is little more than a collection of tips and tells added to your base defense. You have some personnel groups to address, and everything else is a virtual fencing match of attacks and counter moves. The only ways to tip the scales of this otherwise balanced engagement is to constantly be on the attack (a methodology rife with danger) or be able to anticipate what your opponent is going to do next. Bill Belichick is a master of this approach. He has been known to use methods both extreme (and sometimes illegal) to pick up on the slightest tell. Read "The Education of a Coach" by David Halberstam. The obsession it takes to do the job is incredibly revealing.
But the point of all of this is that Childress' guys have to go into this with two scouting reports on quarterbacks. Two sets of tendencies, two sets of safety manipulations, two sets of cadences and pre-snap rituals (ask Tom Brady about what happens when a defense zeros in on your pre-snap ritual on any given Super Bowl Sunday... and see if he remembers what the Giants did to him... I'm sure parts of it are a little fuzzy).
Add to that, that the Vikings have to prep for 5 guys they're pretty sure are going to start on the O Line... but have rarely been seen together. The X,Y, and Z receivers seem to be in a state of constant flux, half the team seems to be suffering from rare mysterious ailments, and the #2 RB hasn't played since the first preseason game. Oh, and I'm pretty sure Leslie Frazier is aware that Eric Mangini is aware that Josh Cribbs was once a successful quarterback.
Each thing, on it's own, isn't a game changer. But add them all up and you end up with a defensive game plan that covers 40 pages but only has enough relevant content to fill one side of a cocktail napkin. Everything else is a guess. It's all what if's. You end up going over and over things that you'll never see. You're supposed to be filling out fact sheets, instead you're chasing ghosts. It's death by a thousand cuts. And it sucks.
I have to say, I'm far more in Mangini's camp on this one. Tell them nothing. Show them nothing. Take every advantage you can get, no matter how small. If the middle linebacker is going through a messy divorce, make your audible alert his soon-to-be-ex-wife's name. Team's got a speed back... hit him every play, ball or no ball... see how fast he is after he picks himself off the ground 70 times or so. Coming off knee surgery? Cut block him with a back, trap him... low... not to injure, just to make him hesitate. Rookie making a first start... call his number before every play, ID him. Hand signaling plays... steal 'em. Turn up the audio on the film, listen for audibles... even if I get one, I've got one.
Ah, anyway... I could go on and on. All I'm saying is, this quarterback thing is bothering everyone... including the Vikings, regardless of what they say.
-jj
Yep....
I'm very well aware of that, as I read it when Jason posted it.
The thing that throws a kink in it is that the whole fcuking world "knew" that Quinn was going to be the starter a week ago. If you think Minnesota gave more than 15% of their prep time to DA then God bless ya. (Translation: Any advantage that Mangini was trying to get....he DIDN'T get.)
Meanwhile, our 1st team was playing musical snaps at QB....just so Mangini could feel like Billy Badass while talking to pencil-neck beat reporters.
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Not true. We knew that Quinn was the guy because we follow the Browns closely. Most of the "analysts" thought it was going to be DA because of his experience. These people are uninformed, and, really, who cares what anyone is saying. Mangini has his way and an extra week of Quinn with the 1st team reps wasn't going to make him a better, more prepared QB. I personally don't think it was much of an advantage, but who cares. What happens on the field is what matters and what we will judge Mangini by.
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Since we're quoting from other threads, I'll throw one of my old questions on here:
Will Quinn be completely up to speed in week two, after having come in and out every week, working 50/50 with the first team in practice, and not taking a snap in the last game? If not, then what is gained? Even if the Vikings had to completely scrap their defensive gameplan--and they clearly don't--which is the greater disadvantage, having to adjust some of your coverage schemes, or having about a week's worth of practice as the uncontested starter at the most important position on the team?
Dennis
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It's easy to second guess now. Mangini and Kokinis have to manage a roster of 53. As well as the contract for each. They do have a responsibility to maintain an investment the Browns had put in DA.
True. DA's contract wasn't their idea. Savage saw fit to drop a pile of Randy Lerner's money in DA's pocket. The succeeding regime still has to do a reasonable job of protecting that investment.
What would you say DA's trade value is now as compared to when the 08 season ended ? Be honest. It's still a game and a business. All kinds of crazy things happen in the first four weeks of the NFL season.
If Anderson is traded, the value will still be there. He'll still be a viable starting QB. He's marketable again. Someone will call. Bravo Kokgini. Good luck Derek.
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I dont think both QBs taking snaps with the first team is ever a bad thing because DA is only one play away from starting and that was one of crennels biggest weaknesses was a lack of preparation from all the backups because we just dont know when someone is going to get hurt...
I didnt really agree with the secret agent man stuff but it does show us that mangini is competitive enough to grasp at even the smallest mental advantage over his opponent and i do admire that about him...i think childress's statements reflect that frustration more than people think...
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Since we're quoting from other threads, I'll throw one of my old questions on here:
Will Quinn be completely up to speed in week two, after having come in and out every week, working 50/50 with the first team in practice, and not taking a snap in the last game? If not, then what is gained? Even if the Vikings had to completely scrap their defensive gameplan--and they clearly don't--which is the greater disadvantage, having to adjust some of your coverage schemes, or having about a week's worth of practice as the uncontested starter at the most important position on the team?
Dennis
Since we're quoting from other threads, I'll throw one of my old questions on here:
Will Quinn be completely up to speed in week two, after having come in and out every week, working 50/50 with the first team in practice, and not taking a snap in the last game? If not, then what is gained? Even if the Vikings had to completely scrap their defensive gameplan--and they clearly don't--which is the greater disadvantage, having to adjust some of your coverage schemes, or having about a week's worth of practice as the uncontested starter at the most important position on the team?
Dennis
Professional athletes are paid a lot of money. They better be prepared to play at anytime. I think the only bad thing about not divulging who would be the starting QB is fan reaction. The fans pay a lot of money to go to games and buy the outrageously priced hot dogs, soda and beer. Football is entertainment. The players are entertainers. You have to please the fan base. Winning will obviously please us. Lets hope Mangini can win. If not, he is in for a rough tour here.
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They're talking about BQ being the starting QB for us on fcuking U.S Open coverage.
You sacrificed 1st team reps for NOTHING other than your ego.
It also appears that you don't have as much control over your players as you think you do.
Your "competitive advantage" (if you ever even had one, as the entire league had Quinn pegged as the starter last week) just got flushed.
So, what exactly was it again that you were attempting to accomplish with your short bus car show?
They're talking about BQ being the starting QB for us on fcuking U.S Open coverage.
You sacrificed 1st team reps for NOTHING other than your ego.
LOL! Love the intensity Timugen. Seriously though, I wouldn't look at it like ALL the columnists want to look at it. ZERO was sacrificed with the first team if the end result of this is finding the RIGHT first team QB in training camp/preseason. Equal reps, equal situations means better apples to apples and our first look at a REAL QB competition. I encourage you to LIKE that Mangini GETS the importance of finding the right guy. Sounds to me like reps have been split since the May OTA's, which is sufficient time for both QBs. Preseason and training camp officially ended with the inception of this week's game plans.
The starting QB every regular season game week gets more reps with the first string beginning on Tuesday/Wednesday. This week was no different. Film has been studied - specific game plans are underway and the media's job is to report Quinn vrs DA 24/7 while Mangini's job is the Minnesota Vikings. The decision is over.
As for the alleged Mangini SECRET - who here believes that he really expected it to remain a secret when he hinted - the starting QB will begin the day taking snaps from center in the first O tomorrow. The media's job is Quinn vrs DA as the bulk of our subject headings this year would support such a thing. However, Mangini's job is the Browns vrs Vikings. Part of being a BB disciple is to remain unclear about injuries in the media and play guessing games regarding key starters.
As a fan, I think Mangini has approached this the way he needs to; because the instant something goes wrong - he doesn't have to hear 1 guy didn't get the SAME chance as the other. And even BETTER, if there's injury or disappointment - the next guy has enough reps with the first unit to where it won't be a culture shock for anyone in the offense. The media? That's another story. They'll compete for best spin on what he's doing wrong from where they scribble. They're already doing it as we can see.
- Tom F.
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They're talking about BQ being the starting QB for us on fcuking U.S Open coverage.
You sacrificed 1st team reps for NOTHING other than your ego.
It also appears that you don't have as much control over your players as you think you do.
Your "competitive advantage" (if you ever even had one, as the entire league had Quinn pegged as the starter last week) just got flushed.
So, what exactly was it again that you were attempting to accomplish with your short bus car show?
They're talking about BQ being the starting QB for us on fcuking U.S Open coverage.
You sacrificed 1st team reps for NOTHING other than your ego.
It also appears that you don't have as much control over your players as you think you do.
Your "competitive advantage" (if you ever even had one, as the entire league had Quinn pegged as the starter last week) just got flushed.
So, what exactly was it again that you were attempting to accomplish with your short bus car show?
I wouldn't say it was for nothing and did we really give up reps??
This thing wasn't won until a day or so ago, and from what I have read BQ has been out front since the word came down who won.
Maybe you should apply to be a head coach somewhere since you seem to think you have it all figured out.
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I don't get the hostility over this issue.
Watched a "One on One" show, with Mangini as the guest.
He said his first idea about the drafting of any player, is he wants
to know his character, intelligence, team-oriented or not, love of the game...
THEN he looks at physical characteristics.
THAT is a HUGE breath of fresh air.
As far as the secret goes, Mangini scattered the players around the locker room, wanting
them all to know each other, avoid cliques, and be a TEAM.
As far as keeping the starting qb a secret? Is fantasy football that much a driving force or what?
Having that secret is just another "we're all in this boat together, here's the plan, we're going to float it
as a team" thing.
Every single time I listen to Mangini behind the scenes, I'm seriously impressed.
No more predictability. He even knows HOW TO SET UP AND RUN A FREAKIN SCREEN PLAY !
The anger/anguish over who wins the starting qb job? I don't get it. And Minn. wishes they hadn't
had to plan for both. That's two defensive game plans, and now they choose just one, but the other
defensive game plan still took up time.
Take it easy, folks. The Mangini coaches are the real deal, I think, and FINALLY we won't have the same
old questions and disgust at seeing the same boring, elementary, unimaginative running of our Browns.
I predict a trick play from the beginning by the offense, to set the tone and get the Minn. defense
thinking "crap, we're going to have our hands full today".
We'll see.
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Since we're quoting from other threads, I'll throw one of my old questions on here:
Will Quinn be completely up to speed in week two, after having come in and out every week, working 50/50 with the first team in practice, and not taking a snap in the last game? If not, then what is gained? Even if the Vikings had to completely scrap their defensive gameplan--and they clearly don't--which is the greater disadvantage, having to adjust some of your coverage schemes, or having about a week's worth of practice as the uncontested starter at the most important position on the team?
Dennis
Since we're quoting from other threads, I'll throw one of my old questions on here:
Will Quinn be completely up to speed in week two, after having come in and out every week, working 50/50 with the first team in practice, and not taking a snap in the last game? If not, then what is gained? Even if the Vikings had to completely scrap their defensive gameplan--and they clearly don't--which is the greater disadvantage, having to adjust some of your coverage schemes, or having about a week's worth of practice as the uncontested starter at the most important position on the team?
Dennis
But but but
The advantage gained from the Vikings having to waste a whole TWO days preparing for two QBs has to be huge.
Even if that were huge, how does that help us next week and the week after? We get a one week 'advantage' possibly offset by the fact our starter didn't get all the reps; a disadvantage that may carry additional weeks.
Maybe Mangini figures they've gotten as many reps as needed.
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Ballpeen,
After preseason game 3, Mangini said they knew who the starter was and that it was settled. If it hadn't been settled, do you think both of these guys would have sat out for game 4?
Choco, we're all so glad you have such good commentary to add to the thread. Since you show up in every thread calling the poster a 'whiny bitch' while you act like a whiny bitch by complaining about them starting a new thread...maybe you should take your own advice and STFU.
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@jadbf said:
Props to Mangini!How much press do you think this 4-12 team with a new coach would have gotten had this whole "QB controversy" wasn't covered?
PR GENIUS I am telling you.
Not only that. but.
"LOOK LOOK LOOK AT THE QBs! Whos tanking the snaps? who's the starter? what's going on?"
and yet not much talk about the rest of the team where his real decision making will affect this team much more than who starts at QB.
Mis-direction, head games, all with probably a laugh in his private moments.
Eric Mangini I salute you.
Before Favor coming back and this charade that was played out, the Browns were not on anybodies radar about anything.
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@jadbf said:
Props to Mangini!How much press do you think this 4-12 team with a new coach would have gotten had this whole "QB controversy" wasn't covered?
PR GENIUS I am telling you.
Not only that. but.
"LOOK LOOK LOOK AT THE QBs! Whos tanking the snaps? who's the starter? what's going on?"
and yet not much talk about the rest of the team where his real decision making will affect this team much more than who starts at QB.
Mis-direction, head games, all with probably a laugh in his private moments.
Eric Mangini I salute you.
Don't forget... the media members are entirely focused on Mangini. There's a media storm brewing, and there's no one's talking pass rush, run stopping... no one's got a mic in Shaun Rogers' face, Kam Wimbley, nothing.
Mangini has managed to make himself the entire focus of what would normally be distracting Week 1 media coverage... asking players to make ridiculous, unfounded predictions, "Have you improved to the run defense?"
Mangini's little "pay no attention (or rather, 'only' pay attention) to the man behind the curtain" act has allowed the Cleveland Browns players to get up in the morning, get their work in, and prep for Sunday in relative peace and quiet, if not complete anonymity.
Oh, and whether or not the Vikings "knew" Quinn was going to be the starter... I guarantee you they've got a 5 page tip sheet on Anderson. Somebody had to prepare it. And there's no way to get that time back. That's time that could've been used on something else. Defensive coordinators don't guess. They work on contingencies.
-jj
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Ballpeen,
After preseason game 3, Mangini said they knew who the starter was and that it was settled. If it hadn't been settled, do you think both of these guys would have sat out for game 4?
Choco, we're all so glad you have such good commentary to add to the thread. Since you show up in every thread calling the poster a 'whiny bitch' while you act like a whiny bitch by complaining about them starting a new thread...maybe you should take your own advice and STFU.
Ballpeen,
After preseason game 3, Mangini said they knew who the starter was and that it was settled. If it hadn't been settled, do you think both of these guys would have sat out for game 4?
Choco, we're all so glad you have such good commentary to add to the thread. Since you show up in every thread calling the poster a 'whiny bitch' while you act like a whiny bitch by complaining about them starting a new thread...maybe you should take your own advice and STFU.
I do agree you have a bit of a point, but the 4th game is the game you play the bubble guys. Giving each of Quinn and Anderson a series each wouldn't have helped them all that much.
I really don't think game 4 would have made any difference in how well Brady...or Derick if he had won, would play this season.
One more series isn't going to help in knowing the playbook or getting the timing down if it isn't already there.
JMO
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@jadbf said:
Props to Mangini!How much press do you think this 4-12 team with a new coach would have gotten had this whole "QB controversy" wasn't covered?
PR GENIUS I am telling you.
Not only that. but.
"LOOK LOOK LOOK AT THE QBs! Whos tanking the snaps? who's the starter? what's going on?"
and yet not much talk about the rest of the team where his real decision making will affect this team much more than who starts at QB.
Mis-direction, head games, all with probably a laugh in his private moments.
Eric Mangini I salute you.
Don't forget... the media members are entirely focused on Mangini. There's a media storm brewing, and there's no one's talking pass rush, run stopping... no one's got a mic in Shaun Rogers' face, Kam Wimbley, nothing.
Mangini has managed to make himself the entire focus of what would normally be distracting Week 1 media coverage... asking players to make ridiculous, unfounded predictions, "Have you improved to the run defense?"
Mangini's little "pay no attention (or rather, 'only' pay attention) to the man behind the curtain" act has allowed the Cleveland Browns players to get up in the morning, get their work in, and prep for Sunday in relative peace and quiet, if not complete anonymity.
Oh, and whether or not the Vikings "knew" Quinn was going to be the starter... I guarantee you they've got a 5 page tip sheet on Anderson. Somebody had to prepare it. And there's no way to get that time back. That's time that could've been used on something else. Defensive coordinators don't guess. They work on contingencies.
-jj
Defensive coordinators don't guess. They work on contingencies.
-jj
Exactly...and the reason why they would have the "tip' sheet anyway. The Vikings didn't care who the QB might be because at least at this point, preparing for Quinn or DA doesn't require much difference in the plan.
Now....if we start Cribbs at QB...that would throw the Vikings for a loop that would make them scramble a bit.
.jpg.a1a2b9a0c33008fdaf4097d8fe2cfd64.jpg "Riffer X"){kind=avatar}
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