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Draft homework

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  • Solon16 S
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    S Solon16 wrote on last edited by Solon16
    #1

    Looking back at 99 draft ...this will be a series....

    We drafted 11 guys in 99....not one is even in the league.

    Notable first round misses.......still in league....Donovan Mcnabb, Ricky williams , Edgerin James, tory holt, champ bailey, chris Mcallister...etc etc...in round one patrick kearney, jevon kearse, antoine winfield,al wilson....blah

    notable second rounders still in league......Dre Bly,jon hansen,mike petersen,mike rucker(just retired this year)Jimmy Kleinssaser....etc etc alot more

    third rounders still in league....Chike Okefor, Marty Booker, Joey Porter, jon thornton, kevin Faulk, etc etc

    4th Brandon Stokely, rosevelt colvin, aaron smith etc etc

    5th kelly gregg, (Eric Barton, David Bowens) lol

    6th desmond clark

    7th donald driver..............there are a ton of guys still playing from this draft class that I did not mention...alot!!! none of our guys are even in the league. now the year 2000 next...

    OUR PICKS: TC, KJ, Daylon McCutcheon, Rahim abdullah, marquis smith, waLI RAINER, DAREN CHIAVERINI, MARCUS SPRIGGS, kENDALL OGLE, jAMES DEARTH, MADRE HILL

    T ballpeenB 2 Replies Last reply
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    • S Solon16

      Looking back at 99 draft ...this will be a series....

      We drafted 11 guys in 99....not one is even in the league.

      Notable first round misses.......still in league....Donovan Mcnabb, Ricky williams , Edgerin James, tory holt, champ bailey, chris Mcallister...etc etc...in round one patrick kearney, jevon kearse, antoine winfield,al wilson....blah

      notable second rounders still in league......Dre Bly,jon hansen,mike petersen,mike rucker(just retired this year)Jimmy Kleinssaser....etc etc alot more

      third rounders still in league....Chike Okefor, Marty Booker, Joey Porter, jon thornton, kevin Faulk, etc etc

      4th Brandon Stokely, rosevelt colvin, aaron smith etc etc

      5th kelly gregg, (Eric Barton, David Bowens) lol

      6th desmond clark

      7th donald driver..............there are a ton of guys still playing from this draft class that I did not mention...alot!!! none of our guys are even in the league. now the year 2000 next...

      OUR PICKS: TC, KJ, Daylon McCutcheon, Rahim abdullah, marquis smith, waLI RAINER, DAREN CHIAVERINI, MARCUS SPRIGGS, kENDALL OGLE, jAMES DEARTH, MADRE HILL

      TheBestPlayersPlay T
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      T TheBestPlayersPlay wrote on last edited by
      #2

      @solon16 said:

      Looking back at 99 draft ...this will be a series....

      We drafted 11 guys in 99....not one is even in the league.

      Notable first round misses.......still in league....Donovan Mcnabb, Ricky williams , Edgerin James, tory holt, champ bailey, chris Mcallister...etc etc...in round one patrick kearney, jevon kearse, antoine winfield,al wilson....blah

      notable second rounders still in league......Dre Bly,jon hansen,mike petersen,mike rucker(just retired this year)Jimmy Kleinssaser....etc etc alot more

      third rounders still in league....Chike Okefor, Marty Booker, Joey Porter, jon thornton, kevin Faulk, etc etc

      4th Brandon Stokely, rosevelt colvin, aaron smith etc etc

      5th kelly gregg, (Eric Barton, David Bowens) lol

      6th desmond clark

      7th donald driver..............there are a ton of guys still playing from this draft class that I did not mention...alot!!! none of our guys are even in the league. now the year 2000 next...

      OUR PICKS: TC, KJ, Daylon McCutcheon, Rahim abdullah, marquis smith, waLI RAINER, DAREN CHIAVERINI, MARCUS SPRIGGS, kENDALL OGLE, jAMES DEARTH, MADRE HILL

      Madre Hill was to be our diamond in the rough next great RB. And What about the next coming of Brian Brennen Mr. Chiaverini. Great draft.

      These guys don't even have to pay me to run one of their drafts and I could do a whole hell of a lot better than what we've had the past decade. Maybe I can contact Lerner and save him some jack. (hopefully Mangini bucks the trend)

      "Authority is not the truth, truth is the authority." http://www.barkinghard.com/forums
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      • Solon16 S
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        S Solon16 wrote on last edited by Solon16
        #3

        2000 13 GUYS DRAFTED... ONLY NORTHCUTT STILL IN LEAGUE....caveat lewis sanders is somewhere...

        Notable first round misses(as in we missed)and still in league...Chris samuels, Jamal lewis*, thomas jones, Plax, Urlacher, John Abraham, Julian petersen...etc etc

        second rd....Mark simeneau, john st. clair*, Damian mcintosh, nate webster....etc

        third rd....misses....marvel smith, chad clifton, mike brown, ian gold, adrian klemm etc etc

        4th terrelle smith, alvin Mckinley* , cooper carlisle, etc

        5th....Clark haggins, Shane lechler, Kabila Gbaja-biamila ,Dante hall....

        6th and seventh.....Tom Brady, marc bulger, Dhani Jones, Adalius Thomas, Robaire smith*

        Our picks..........

        Courtney brown, Dennis northcutt, travis prentice, jajaun dawson, Lewis Sanders, aaron shea, anthony marlborough, lamar champan, eric chandler, rashidi barnes, brad bedell, spergeon wynn manuia sevea

        JESUS CHRISTO>>>>>>ONLY NORTHDRP and Lewis Sanders are still in the League... Lewis sanders did a couple stints with us but look at all the misses we had that made there way to us eventually....redonkulous

        N 1 Reply Last reply
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        • Solon16 S
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          S Solon16 wrote on last edited by Solon16
          #4

          we can talk about butch davis and savage(and I will) but missing on 22 of 24 players from these two draft classes are why we SUCK!

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          • Solon16 S
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            S Solon16 wrote on last edited by Solon16
            #5

            2001....just sick: 8 players drafted ONLY Gerard warren(1st) and anthony henry(4th) still in league

            notable 1st rounders missed (vomit) LT, richard seymour, ....fk just too many to list

            round 2....missed Kyle Vanden Bosch, Ochostinko, Ken lucas, Kris Jenkins, fred smoot, Matt light, Chris chambers, Gary Baxter*, Shaun Rogers*,

            round three....Mike Gandy, steve smith(wr), Kareem Mckenzie casey rabach, Jonas Jennings....

            4th Rudi Johnson, Matt stewart*, correll Buckhalter, Ed Hartwell Floyd Womack*

            5th Aj feeley, matt lehr(not much)

            6th Cedrick wilson...not much

            7th TJ houshmandzadeh

            Our picks: Gerard Warren, Quincy Morgan, James Jackson, Anthony Henry, Jeremiah Pharms, Paul Zukaskas and andre(i'll tell) king

            as of 2001....we missed on 28 of 32 picks....

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            • Solon16 S
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              S Solon16 wrote on last edited by Solon16
              #6

              2002....8 guys drafted Only Andre davis, Andra davis maybe...... kevin bentley and melvin fowler.... in league still(i know one of these guys are on the street) Missed....1st round ed reed, charles grant lito shepherd, marc columbo...etc etc etc

              second... sheldon brown, clinton portis, antonio bryant*

              third....brian westbrook, akin ayodele 4th...David thorton, jarvis green, dave zastudil* 5th......Rocky benard, aaron Kampman, scott fujita, robert royal*, Kenyon coleman* (getting rediculous) 6th....CHESTER TAYLOR, justin hartwig, jeb putzer, adrian petersen(bears0 7th...Brett keisel, kevin schaffer* vomit

              our picks Willy green, Andre Davis, Melvin Fowler, Kevin Bentley, Ben taylor, Darnell Sanders, Andra Davis, joaquin Gonzales

              That's 34 of 40 out of league.... of the 6 in the league...none are with the Browns!

              So Again to reinterate ZERO OUT OF 40 STILL WITH THE BROWNS

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              • Squintz S
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                S Squintz wrote on last edited by
                #7

                Stop! Please.....STOP! I'm getting sick..... 😵

                CHANGE IS GOOD
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                • Vegasdogg V
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                  V Vegasdogg wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  No no, keep going. We need to see the carnage. You were saying.........

                  "I will not insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you just said." William F Buckley
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                  • S Solon16

                    Looking back at 99 draft ...this will be a series....

                    We drafted 11 guys in 99....not one is even in the league.

                    Notable first round misses.......still in league....Donovan Mcnabb, Ricky williams , Edgerin James, tory holt, champ bailey, chris Mcallister...etc etc...in round one patrick kearney, jevon kearse, antoine winfield,al wilson....blah

                    notable second rounders still in league......Dre Bly,jon hansen,mike petersen,mike rucker(just retired this year)Jimmy Kleinssaser....etc etc alot more

                    third rounders still in league....Chike Okefor, Marty Booker, Joey Porter, jon thornton, kevin Faulk, etc etc

                    4th Brandon Stokely, rosevelt colvin, aaron smith etc etc

                    5th kelly gregg, (Eric Barton, David Bowens) lol

                    6th desmond clark

                    7th donald driver..............there are a ton of guys still playing from this draft class that I did not mention...alot!!! none of our guys are even in the league. now the year 2000 next...

                    OUR PICKS: TC, KJ, Daylon McCutcheon, Rahim abdullah, marquis smith, waLI RAINER, DAREN CHIAVERINI, MARCUS SPRIGGS, kENDALL OGLE, jAMES DEARTH, MADRE HILL

                    ballpeen ballpeenB Conversation Starter Dedicated Reacting Well Very Popular Posting Machine Collaborator First Post One Year In One Month Later Week One Done
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                    ballpeenB ballpeen wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    @solon16 said:

                    Looking back at 99 draft ...this will be a series....

                    We drafted 11 guys in 99....not one is even in the league.

                    Notable first round misses.......still in league....Donovan Mcnabb, Ricky williams , Edgerin James, tory holt, champ bailey, chris Mcallister...etc etc...in round one patrick kearney, jevon kearse, antoine winfield,al wilson....blah

                    notable second rounders still in league......Dre Bly,jon hansen,mike petersen,mike rucker(just retired this year)Jimmy Kleinssaser....etc etc alot more

                    third rounders still in league....Chike Okefor, Marty Booker, Joey Porter, jon thornton, kevin Faulk, etc etc

                    4th Brandon Stokely, rosevelt colvin, aaron smith etc etc

                    5th kelly gregg, (Eric Barton, David Bowens) lol

                    6th desmond clark

                    7th donald driver..............there are a ton of guys still playing from this draft class that I did not mention...alot!!! none of our guys are even in the league. now the year 2000 next...

                    OUR PICKS: TC, KJ, Daylon McCutcheon, Rahim abdullah, marquis smith, waLI RAINER, DAREN CHIAVERINI, MARCUS SPRIGGS, kENDALL OGLE, jAMES DEARTH, MADRE HILL

                    Wouldn't it be easier and less painful to just allow someone to beat you over the shins 10 times with 1/2 inch hydraulic hose?

                    If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
                    1 Reply Last reply
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                    • car ramrod C
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                      C car ramrod wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      It would be easier just to name the players that are still on our team

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                      • Solon16 S
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                        S Solon16 wrote on last edited by Solon16
                        #11

                        2003 7 players drafted.... Ryan Pontbriand only player on our team. one other starts for NO (faine) 3 others spot duty Chris Crocker,Chaun Thompson michael lehan.....(maybe... don't know if lehan still in league) lee suggs and antonio Garay out of league...

                        in order...:jeff faine, Chaun Thompson, Chris Crocker, Lee Suggs, Ryan Pontbriand, Michael lehan and antonio Garay

                        1st round misses (not really relevant) because faine starts...but Nnamdi Asomugha, larry johnson, willis McGahee, eric Steinbach*

                        2nd round misses (this hurts...) Anquan Bolden, Osi Umenyura, gerald hayes, derrick dockery, lj smith, cory redding.

                        3rd....visanthe shiancoe, justin fargas, Bradie james...

                        4th .... Asante samual, brandon llyod

                        5th justin Gage, Dan Koppen, Donald lee, sean mahan, tony pashos

                        6th cato june, arnaz battle(not much)

                        7th Tully bunta - cain, Kevin Walter and ethan kelley*

                        SO 1 GUY OUT OF 47 STILL WITH BROWNS...THE LONG SNAPPER!!! Faine,crocker,pont,and lehan (maybe) still in league....

                        36 guys we drafted out of the league out of 47 picks......of the 11 still playing only the Long snapper remains on our team....LOL and everyone cried when we took him...ha ha ha. (this is fkn hard work)

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                        • S Solon16

                          2000 13 GUYS DRAFTED... ONLY NORTHCUTT STILL IN LEAGUE....caveat lewis sanders is somewhere...

                          Notable first round misses(as in we missed)and still in league...Chris samuels, Jamal lewis*, thomas jones, Plax, Urlacher, John Abraham, Julian petersen...etc etc

                          second rd....Mark simeneau, john st. clair*, Damian mcintosh, nate webster....etc

                          third rd....misses....marvel smith, chad clifton, mike brown, ian gold, adrian klemm etc etc

                          4th terrelle smith, alvin Mckinley* , cooper carlisle, etc

                          5th....Clark haggins, Shane lechler, Kabila Gbaja-biamila ,Dante hall....

                          6th and seventh.....Tom Brady, marc bulger, Dhani Jones, Adalius Thomas, Robaire smith*

                          Our picks..........

                          Courtney brown, Dennis northcutt, travis prentice, jajaun dawson, Lewis Sanders, aaron shea, anthony marlborough, lamar champan, eric chandler, rashidi barnes, brad bedell, spergeon wynn manuia sevea

                          JESUS CHRISTO>>>>>>ONLY NORTHDRP and Lewis Sanders are still in the League... Lewis sanders did a couple stints with us but look at all the misses we had that made there way to us eventually....redonkulous

                          NebBrownsFan N
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                          N NebBrownsFan wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          @solon16 said:

                          2000 13 GUYS DRAFTED... ONLY NORTHCUTT STILL IN LEAGUE....caveat lewis sanders is somewhere...

                          Notable first round misses(as in we missed)and still in league...Chris samuels, Jamal lewis*, thomas jones, Plax, Urlacher, John Abraham, Julian petersen...etc etc

                          second rd....Mark simeneau, john st. clair*, Damian mcintosh, nate webster....etc

                          third rd....misses....marvel smith, chad clifton, mike brown, ian gold, adrian klemm etc etc

                          4th terrelle smith, alvin Mckinley* , cooper carlisle, etc

                          5th....Clark haggins, Shane lechler, Kabila Gbaja-biamila ,Dante hall....

                          6th and seventh.....Tom Brady, marc bulger, Dhani Jones, Adalius Thomas, Robaire smith*

                          Our picks..........

                          Courtney brown, Dennis northcutt, travis prentice, jajaun dawson, Lewis Sanders, aaron shea, anthony marlborough, lamar champan, eric chandler, rashidi barnes, brad bedell, spergeon wynn manuia sevea

                          JESUS CHRISTO>>>>>>ONLY NORTHDRP and Lewis Sanders are still in the League... Lewis sanders did a couple stints with us but look at all the misses we had that made there way to us eventually....redonkulous

                          Can you really count Plax as still being in the league?

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                          • Solon16 S
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                            S Solon16 wrote on last edited by Solon16
                            #13

                            2004.....6 players drafted.....Kellen Winslow(traded2nd), sean jones (moved up to 2nd and gave up 3rd and swapped fifthpicks)3rd nada, 4th Luke McCown 5th Amon Gordon 6th Kirk Chambers 7th Adima---echemandu(JOE)

                            NONE WITH TEAM......Luke McCown,sean jones backups...Winslow only starter with other team....other 3 out of league.

                            39 guys out of 53 Drafted NOT IN NFL , 14 players still in league only 1 still on the Browns.

                            1st round misses (again not really relevent winslow starts but...Ben Rothlisberger, tommie harris, lee evans, vince wilfork

                            2nd round...Jake Grove, Chris snee, Justin Smiley, Antwan odom, devery hendersen

                            3rd (all) Darnell docket Max Starks, Bernard Berrian

                            4th....jericho Cotchery, Jared Allen

                            5th... DJ Hackett...Errik Coleman

                            6th...(GET THIS) Corey Williams, Rex Hadnot

                            7th...Patrick Crayton, Derrick Ward

                            1 out of 53 guys we drafted still with team 😠

                            R 1 Reply Last reply
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                            • pl4tinum P
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                              P pl4tinum wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              keep going hoe!

                              2009-10 Browns Prediction: 8-8
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                              • BradyQuinnisBeast B
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                                B BradyQuinnisBeast wrote on last edited by
                                #15

                                This is somehow humorous 😁

                                The road to .500...
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                                • Solon16 S
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                                  S Solon16 wrote on last edited by Solon16
                                  #16

                                  2005...7 players drafted.....ONE STILL WITH TEAM....THAT MAKES 2 OUT OF 60 PLAYERS DRAFTED STILL WITH THE BROWNS....4 MORE OUT OF FOOTBALL...... AND FRYE NEARLY OUT........ 43 OF OUR DRAFT PICKS IN THE LAST/First 60 ARE OUT OF THE NFL!OF THE 17 IN THE NFL ONLY 2 PLAY FOR THE BROWNS. (Pontbriand and Pool) 17 of our 60 draft picks are in the nfl 🥷

                                  Braylon Edwards, Brodney Pool, Charlie Frye, Antonio perkins, Dave McMillan, Nick Speegle, and Jon Dunn in order 1~7

                                  1st round missed...again BE is a starter....but Demarcus ware, Shawne Merriman....

                                  2nd round....lofa tatupu, kevin burnett, corey webster

                                  3rd(ouch)round...Channing Crowder, Justin tuck, Ellis Hobbs, leroy hill, nick kaczur, trai essex, dominique foxworth,

                                  4th(even worse) Brandon Jacobs,Marion Barber, Kerry rhodes, Vincent fuller, Jason Brown, Chris Canty, Darren Sproles, Brady Poppinga, Dan Buenning

                                  5th round misses...Trent Cole, Michael Boley, Gerald sensabaugh

                                  6th roun....Bo Scaife, Jovan Haye, Chris Kemoeatu...(get this) CJ Mosely,Derrick Anderson and Daven Holly*

                                  7th round...Reynaldo hill, matt casell, Jay Ratliff

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                                  • Solon16 S
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                                    S Solon16 wrote on last edited by Solon16
                                    #17

                                    2006...as far as I'm going.......vomit

                                    9 players drafted......4 still with team....(just fkn three years ago)....5 OUT OF NFL .....THAT MAKES 6 OF 69 DRAFT PICKS STILL WITH THE BROWNS SINCE 99 ///////// 48 OUT OF 69 DRAFT PICKS OUT OF FOOTBALL

                                    In order (1)Kam Wimbley, (traded faine and moved up to NO swapped second rounders)...(2)Dqwell Jackson, (3)Travis Wilson, (4a)Leon Williams,)(4b) Issac sowells, (5a)Jerome Harrison, (5b)Demario Minter, (6)Lawrence Vickers and (7)Justin Hamilton

                                    Misses...rd1 nick mangold, Deangelo williams, Santonio Holmes blah blah blah

                                    rd 2...maurice jones drew, Marcus Mcneil, Lendale white, Devin hester, Greg Jennings, Roman Harper

                                    rd 3 Jerious Norwood, David Thomas, Rashad butler, Max Jean Giles

                                    rd4. (fkn sick) Brandon Marshall, leon washington, Barry cofield, Stephen tulloch, Will blackmon, Elvis dumervill , Domenik Hixon, Parys Harleson, willie colon,

                                    rd 5...dawan landry,mark anderson,

                                    rd 6... Omar gaither, Pat McQuistan

                                    round 7 Courtland Finnegan and Marquis Colston

                                    cant do anymore...VOMIT

                                    Building through the draft is absolutely to way to go ONLY IF YOU CAN EVALUATE TALENT! The worst in the NFL bar none....there is no need to look any further into what is wrong with the Cleveland Browns....Can someone figure out those percentages....my brain hurts!

                                    E 1 Reply Last reply
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                                    • S Solon16

                                      2006...as far as I'm going.......vomit

                                      9 players drafted......4 still with team....(just fkn three years ago)....5 OUT OF NFL .....THAT MAKES 6 OF 69 DRAFT PICKS STILL WITH THE BROWNS SINCE 99 ///////// 48 OUT OF 69 DRAFT PICKS OUT OF FOOTBALL

                                      In order (1)Kam Wimbley, (traded faine and moved up to NO swapped second rounders)...(2)Dqwell Jackson, (3)Travis Wilson, (4a)Leon Williams,)(4b) Issac sowells, (5a)Jerome Harrison, (5b)Demario Minter, (6)Lawrence Vickers and (7)Justin Hamilton

                                      Misses...rd1 nick mangold, Deangelo williams, Santonio Holmes blah blah blah

                                      rd 2...maurice jones drew, Marcus Mcneil, Lendale white, Devin hester, Greg Jennings, Roman Harper

                                      rd 3 Jerious Norwood, David Thomas, Rashad butler, Max Jean Giles

                                      rd4. (fkn sick) Brandon Marshall, leon washington, Barry cofield, Stephen tulloch, Will blackmon, Elvis dumervill , Domenik Hixon, Parys Harleson, willie colon,

                                      rd 5...dawan landry,mark anderson,

                                      rd 6... Omar gaither, Pat McQuistan

                                      round 7 Courtland Finnegan and Marquis Colston

                                      cant do anymore...VOMIT

                                      Building through the draft is absolutely to way to go ONLY IF YOU CAN EVALUATE TALENT! The worst in the NFL bar none....there is no need to look any further into what is wrong with the Cleveland Browns....Can someone figure out those percentages....my brain hurts!

                                      EdwardG E
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                                      E EdwardG wrote on last edited by EdwardG
                                      #18

                                      @solon16 said:

                                      2006...as far as I'm going.......vomit

                                      THAT MAKES 6 OF 69 DRAFT PICKS STILL WITH THE BROWNS SINCE 99 ///////// 48 OUT OF 69 DRAFT PICKS OUT OF FOOTBALL

                                      It'd be interesting to see these stats for the Steelers and Ravens from 1999-2006.

                                      S 1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • Gips GipsG
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                                        GipsG Gips wrote on last edited by Gips
                                        #19

                                        10 years of bad GMs and horrible coaches...combined with al being fire happy and randy not letting crennel/savage go soon enough are the real root of the problem...

                                        Randy obviously likes mangini and hopefully will stick with him because thats really what it will take to turn things around...unlike past coaches/GMs im starting to think this regime may be a very solid drafter...

                                        We have yet to see robiskie and velkune but i bet they will both be worth the wait when mangooni deems them ready...im actually feeling pretty good about this regime as their longterm plan becomes more obvious..Daboll needs to add more flavors to his rather stale vanilla plan but that seems to be happening with DA at the helm...😉

                                        We have been rebuilding since 1964, Why stop now? GO BROWNS!
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                                        • S Solon16

                                          2004.....6 players drafted.....Kellen Winslow(traded2nd), sean jones (moved up to 2nd and gave up 3rd and swapped fifthpicks)3rd nada, 4th Luke McCown 5th Amon Gordon 6th Kirk Chambers 7th Adima---echemandu(JOE)

                                          NONE WITH TEAM......Luke McCown,sean jones backups...Winslow only starter with other team....other 3 out of league.

                                          39 guys out of 53 Drafted NOT IN NFL , 14 players still in league only 1 still on the Browns.

                                          1st round misses (again not really relevent winslow starts but...Ben Rothlisberger, tommie harris, lee evans, vince wilfork

                                          2nd round...Jake Grove, Chris snee, Justin Smiley, Antwan odom, devery hendersen

                                          3rd (all) Darnell docket Max Starks, Bernard Berrian

                                          4th....jericho Cotchery, Jared Allen

                                          5th... DJ Hackett...Errik Coleman

                                          6th...(GET THIS) Corey Williams, Rex Hadnot

                                          7th...Patrick Crayton, Derrick Ward

                                          1 out of 53 guys we drafted still with team 😠

                                          roach R One Year In One Month Later Week One Done
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                                          R roach wrote on last edited by
                                          #20

                                          @solon16 said:

                                          2004.....6 players drafted.....Kellen Winslow(traded2nd), sean jones (moved up to 2nd and gave up 3rd and swapped fifthpicks)3rd nada, 4th Luke McCown 5th Amon Gordon 6th Kirk Chambers 7th Adima---echemandu(JOE)

                                          NONE WITH TEAM......Luke McCown,sean jones backups...Winslow only starter with other team....other 3 out of league.

                                          [/b]

                                          Oops. i got to know Chambers when he was in town, and he is still with Buffalo (unless something has happened in the last couple weeks). Nonetheless, you're point is well taken.

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