Corey Williams
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So a lot has been said about Corey Williams around here, and how he has not appeared in a game yet. . . I mean, he's appeared, but certainly not in the way everyone would have hoped. But I heard something yesterday that made me think.
I sat down to do a little work yesterday and turned on the Packers / Vikings game, and at the very beginning of the game, I heard the announcer say "Ever since the Packers traded away Corey Williams, their run defense has been bad." Then I proceeded to watch Green Bay give up over 220 yards on the ground.
On the season, they have given up 154 rushing yards a game on average, and 9 TDs. Just good enough to be ranked the 28th run Defense in the NFL (Cleveland is ranked 26th). Compare that to the 2007 season, when (with Corey Williams) the Run Defense ranked #14 by giving up only 102 yards/gm and only 6 total TDs on the season!
Now, I know a lot of other factors can play into these changes, but when analysts and announcers go right to the "since Corey Williams Left" factor, it makes me think. Why was he an impact player in Green Bay, but he's being labeled as a 'bust' here? Is it because he can't transition to a 4-3 D? Or maybe that transition is just taking longer than fans would expect? Is it because he's being double-teamed (not likely, since Rogers is getting triple-teamed). Or is it because perhaps the coach and D-coordinator aren't coaching him up right, and aren't using him correctly?
I'm not saying he's playing good, or anything. I'm just holding out hope, still, that maybe scheme/coaching/transition factors have hampered him thus far, and we may see some strides from him going forward.
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good. he's gotten a bad rap in cleveland because he's been hurt all year. but it takes a man to play through injury: see stallworth, donte'.
he's also playing the position in football that gets the least glory: 3-4 DE. his impact doesn't show up on the stat sheet so people can't normally see how he influences a game.
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Interesting stats, but I think this is kind of similar to how commentators were saying that our biggest need last offseason was an elite CB because we were ranked towards the bottom of the league in pass defense.\ said:
I sat down to do a little work yesterday and turned on the Packers / Vikings game, and at the very beginning of the game, I heard the announcer say "Ever since the Packers traded away Corey Williams, their run defense has been bad." Then I proceeded to watch Green Bay give up over 220 yards on the ground.On the season, they have given up 154 rushing yards a game on average, and 9 TDs. Just good enough to be ranked the 28th run Defense in the NFL (Cleveland is ranked 26th). Compare that to the 2007 season, when (with Corey Williams) the Run Defense ranked #14 by giving up only 102 yards/gm and only 6 total TDs on the season!
Though losing Corey Williams certainly played a role in those worsening numbers, I don't think it's the primary reason. For one, Corey wasn't even a starter in Green Bay's defense until the middle of last year. Until injuries required he become an every down DT, Corey was used as a rotational player/pass rusher. So it's hard to say that the Packers lost their run-stuffer when they traded away Williams.
Actually, their big run-stuffer is Ryan Pickett. And considering that Pickett's been hampered by hamstring and triceps injuries all season, it's not a surprise that their run defense has suffered. Add in the fact that 1st Rounder Justin Harrell had to be PUP'ed because of a back injury & solid depth guy Johnny Jolly has been battling drug charges, and you've got one big clusterf*ck on the defensive line.
So while the Packers may regret getting rid of Williams, it's not because he was a great run-stuffer; it's because trading him left them with questionable d-line depth.
Corey's got great hands. He had 3 FF last year; on one of them, he stripped the ball as the running back was racing past him. I remember seeing that and thinking, "Dude, Phil should grab this guy."\ said:
He's knocking down a ton of passes, I know that.But I was concerned by reports that he gets sloppy with his technique when he gets tired. The stats from last year seemed to bear that out; once he became an every down guy, he stopped getting sacks.
This year, we haven't seen a great run-stuffer. Maybe the shoulder's to blame, maybe it isn't.
To be honest, I haven't watched closely enough to declare Williams a bust. And because of the injury, it'd probably be unfair to do so. But I don't think we've seen anything yet to justify the money & high draft choice we expended on him.
Hopefully, that will change.
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I agree that Williams's productivity has been slowed by him playing hurt most of the year. But, Williams is a one gap defensive tackle. In a one gap scheme DTs penetrate and stop the run on the way to the QB. He is now asked to be a two gap DL and hold the point of attack so the LBs can come up and make the plays.
Problem is our LBs aren't very good. Also, the 3-4 isn't about the DEs making plays. They basically try to hold the point of attack. They need to be power rushers not speed rushers.
Have you ever seen a successful 3-4 defense without outstanding LBs.
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Good post and welcome.
No...if you don't have good backers....you have the Browns version of a 3-4.
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Again, we are starting 3 DT's....at least in size...and ZERO DE's. It limits our mobility and allows teams to stunt and get outside on us...and when we start flaring the DE's to cover the outside they start running to the guard gaps.
We need to get at least one smaller (R.Smith at 310 is OK) DE with a little more speed to do stunts with our LB's to allow for gap integrity and give the OLB's better blitz routes.
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the 3-4 just needs to be dropped. This FO seems unable to get the proper personnell even after 4 years. the 3-4 needs almost perfect personnell to thrive.
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the funny thing is that, now that we almost have the personnel to make the 3-4 work, people are bitching about it and wanting to abandon it.
yes, it takes specific athletes who are often in short supply. however, there are only 5-10 elite pass rushers in the NFL anyway. what's missing from our defense is creative schemes. pittsburgh creates pressure all the time just by how they scheme. yes, they also draft well, but savage has given us 2 OLBs who could rush the passer if they were well-coached in wimbley (who just needs to be told what to do and made to spend some time getting stronger) and hall, who's already shown flashes, and someone who can man the middle in d'qwell, as evidenced by his leading the league in tackles.
could we use another quality linebacker? yes. to run the 3-4, you really need 6 quality linebackers, 5 at the bare minimum. however, i know that our main problem is the scheme, not the players. they're not being put in position to make plays or succeed. aggression is the key to winning on defense and our coaching staff is passive. it's that mentality that is strangling our D.
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\ said:
the 3-4 just needs to be dropped. This FO seems unable to get the proper personnell even after 4 years. the 3-4 needs almost perfect personnell to thrive.Is it the personal, or the coaches.
See SD with Wade Philips as DC and Marty as HC. Now see them with Norv Turner at HC and formally Cotrell as DC.
And remember what happened to PITs 3-4 when Lebeau left them for those few years.
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good point. maybe the problem is a little bit of both.
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\ said:
good point. maybe the problem is a little bit of both.I am sure there is both. But if I had to weight it, I'd say 70% coaching and 30% players. I don't believe the D can show up for halves and some games, and say the players are the biggest issue at this point.
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\ said:
Gee another good discusion with no sign of Lum/Stan or Sev....but yeah, we only talk about BQ....nice job bringing up BQ, JADF.
The plan before the season was to start Robaire. Him going to IR was a pretty big blow.
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\ said:
The plan before the season was to start Robaire. Him going to IR was a pretty big blow.Sure, but Williams was to start opposite Robaire. They didn't pay him and ship a 2nd rounder to have him rush "situationally."
Though this seems what he is best suited for. Oh well.
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\ said:
\ said:
Gee another good discusion with no sign of Lum/Stan or Sev....but yeah, we only talk about BQ....nice job bringing up BQ, JADF.
The plan before the season was to start Robaire. Him going to IR was a pretty big blow.
It was to be Robaire on one side and Williams on the other, with Roger at NT. You know, the lineup the put out there week one against DAL?
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\ said:
Thanks Stanhow did you know my name is Stan?
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\ said:
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\ said:
Gee another good discusion with no sign of Lum/Stan or Sev....but yeah, we only talk about BQ....nice job bringing up BQ, JADF.
The plan before the season was to start Robaire. Him going to IR was a pretty big blow.
It was to be Robaire on one side and Williams on the other, with Roger at NT. You know, the lineup the put out there week one against DAL?
Yep, that's what i just said. Nice work masterbater
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\ said:
]\ said:
nice job bringing up BQ, JADF.
The plan before the season was to start Robaire. Him going to IR was a pretty big blow.
Yep, that's what i just said. Nice work masterbater
Uh huh.... that is what you just said......where everything is about Corey Williams (save JADBF entertaining jab) and your input is what's above. Yup, that what you just said.
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Corey Williams would be fine if the linebackers behind him could tackle and avoid pancake blocks.
When Corey Williams went out against Baltimore, that's when Ray Rice went crazy.
When Rogers AND Williams are in together, the defensive line plays decently. there are still some big plays but that is mostly on the linebackers (See Wimbley, Andra Davis and Willie McGinest.)
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\ said:
Good post and welcome.No...if you don't have good backers....you have the Browns version of a 3-4.
very well put it's not really his job to stop the run as much as it is his job to eat up blockers so the lonebackers can stop the run. Our linebackers tho some are promising just seem to suck. Could it just be defensive play calling? I'd like to think so but on either end i say.. Corey williams great pick-up. This year we'll have a draft to work with to get some real impact talent.
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