Fans Have Lost Perspective

BrownB499

I look at our defense,and see them as NFL competitive

They suck ,but they are at least NFL caliber SUCK,they intercept,they tackle,they sack

even against the best teams in the league

The offense,is not NFL caliber,and that's what has most fans furious

we consider a successful drive to be 2 first downs!,no pick six,no fumble ,no three and out.

that was a nice drive,kept our defense off the field!

Now,whats the reason the O is so bad? lack of talent ?

when Mangini shipped KW2 his actions said "we can compete in this league with an average TE " WRONG

when he shipped BE his actions said "we can compete in this league without a #1 receiver" WRONG

when he chose Dabol as his OC his actions said "this is the guy who can out game plan the best DCs in our division " WRONG

when he chose to have a QB competition, well just plain WRONG

I'm not a hater,I want Mangini to be the answer,we need Mangini to be the GENIUS he was billed to be

But so far I really have to question how someone so thorough ,could miss so bad on something so important as offense

ATENEARS

@brownb499 said:
I look at our defense,and see them as NFL competitive
They suck ,but they are at least NFL caliber SUCK,they intercept,they tackle,they sack

even against the best teams in the league

The offense,is not NFL caliber,and that's what has most fans furious

we consider a successful drive to be 2 first downs!,no pick six,no fumble ,no three and out.

that was a nice drive,kept our defense off the field!

Now,whats the reason the O is so bad? lack of talent ?

when Mangini shipped KW2 his actions said "we can compete in this league with an average TE " WRONG

when he shipped BE his actions said "we can compete in this league without a #1 receiver" WRONG

when he chose Dabol as his OC his actions said "this is the guy who can out game plan the best DCs in our division " WRONG

when he chose to have a QB competition, well just plain WRONG

I'm not a hater,I want Mangini to be the answer,we need Mangini to be the GENIUS he was billed to be

But so far I really have to question how someone so thorough ,could miss so bad on something so important as offense

Good post, I'm a Mangini apologist and I have to swallow hard at the above.

Earl34

@gips said:
What we have is an idiot who continues to leave rookies on the bench and then throw em in cold when one of his shitty mangini guys goes down and expects them too perform like they have been working on the first team..
We have an idiot that cant stick to his own plan and has wasted our entire season on his shitty jets mangini guys instead of evaluating all the rookies to see who may stay and who wont cut it next year..

We have an idiot coach that claims daboll is doing a good job and the only thing he is evaluating is his mangini jet guys its "a process" he says instead of taking responsibilty for making this team worse than it was once again while rookies rot on the bench for fear all will see they may be busts..

We have an indecisive blundering fool thats in way over his head..he cant and doesnt live up to his own philosophy or discipline so how does he expect anyone else to...he brought in a newbie wannabe coordinator when he had to know this job called for an experienced OC..once again showing he is a weak little man with no idea what he got himself into...lerner hired mangini because of experience yet he stinks the joint up with daboll and tries to feed the fanns a big ol bag of shit that we will now cover him with...smart guy? NO only a smart ass...

Mangini is going to find out that clevelands media is a bunch of weaksauce gutless repeating heads but the fans here are way way tougher then NYC fans...when it comes to a crumb mouthed scumbag running our team..a true forked tongue slimy serpent...

Which way would you rather lose and waste a seoson?

Watching young guys develop or bust...or watching mangini's jets flounder around on the field giving up the big plays?

If you are going to blow it up blow it up right like parcells...mangini failed to do that as well before the season started..

Dude...chill out. First off, the Jets that he brought in AREN'T the problem. Second, he hasn't given Daboll a pass on his lack of production. Try to be a little objective but then again, you're "tougher than NY fans". OK pal. Thanks. You'd be a little more convincing if you toned it down with the adjectives.

MuramasaV1.0

When I watch a team rebuild I like to see some sort of improvement in the younger players. A spark of hope I guess. We have had none of this, or if we have it has been shut down before it happens again. Why is Lewis even playing anymore when we have a young RB that was running well against the Ravens, and Bengals D? It is pretty obvious that DA has no future here after his last 5 or so games. Why hasn't he been removed? If they are not going to play BQ because of escalators than atleast put in Ratliff. It would be nice to see the coach explode at someone for making the same stupid mistakes every week. Instead we have Mangini standing there on the sidelines, no differant than RAC.

I believe the only reason Mangini was hired was because he could fit into the fatman coat that RAC used to wear, so they didn't have to pay for a new one.

ballpeen

@clevelandfanforlife said:
i get what your saying and i agree with but i think that most people are a little impatient with rebuilding at this point. we've been doing it for ten straight years now with no end in sight. we don't to wait anymore.

CFFL...we have been rebuilding since 1964

Bob806

@brownb499 said:
I look at our defense,and see them as NFL competitive
They suck ,but they are at least NFL caliber SUCK,they intercept,they tackle,they sack

even against the best teams in the league

I agree with most of what you wrote, except McDonald & Wright don't tackle- those two seem afraid to tackle.

medicineman

Rebuilding has been our excuse ever since we returned to Cleveland. We fire a coach after a year or 2. Then we start all over again. I would love to have Marty back in Cleveland. I really didn't HATE Romeo. I know its not the coaches fault we fumbled like 5 times on sunday but somebody needs to be blamed. Its just a shame we have to coach players to hold on to the ball when you are a "pro"

mopaji

@pissedinmedina said:
Wait - Hold on... You can't have it both ways. You say we suck because of the lack of talent, but we trade anything that even smells like talent. So let's just keep drafting "prospects" and hope their skill transfer to the NFL? This is a league of parity, we are supposed to reload, not rebuild. This falls on the coach. If he could manage people, he would find a way to leverage every ounce of talent we have, not trade them away for under-valued draft picks.

The only way to stock pile picks in the 2010 draft is to trade players who ...

A. Are leaving anyways

B. Get paid a lot to be wasted on a bad team and

C. Will never play 100% here.

By the way, last years draft was aweful so to have 11 for this year's, which is much better, is just awesome. That's called foresite and I'm glad this coach has some.

BrownIndian

The fans have not lost perspective, they have lost patience.

mopaji

@brownb499 said:
I look at our defense,and see them as NFL competitive
They suck ,but they are at least NFL caliber SUCK,they intercept,they tackle,they sack

even against the best teams in the league

The offense,is not NFL caliber,and that's what has most fans furious

we consider a successful drive to be 2 first downs!,no pick six,no fumble ,no three and out.

that was a nice drive,kept our defense off the field!

Now,whats the reason the O is so bad? lack of talent ?

when Mangini shipped KW2 his actions said "we can compete in this league with an average TE " WRONG

when he shipped BE his actions said "we can compete in this league without a #1 receiver" WRONG

when he chose Dabol as his OC his actions said "this is the guy who can out game plan the best DCs in our division " WRONG

when he chose to have a QB competition, well just plain WRONG

I'm not a hater,I want Mangini to be the answer,we need Mangini to be the GENIUS he was billed to be

But so far I really have to question how someone so thorough ,could miss so bad on something so important as offense

The QB thing is far more complicated than any of us will know. As far as the saying Mangini made a statement that we don't need a TE or WR, that is just wrong. It wasn't a statement, it was a move for the future. He traded two guys that didn't want to be here, were overpaid, on their way out, and wasting away on a bad team. What he got in return was draft picks. Most importantly, he got high picks for this year's draft which is far better than last years.

He's doing all he can do with this team and this situation. I'm not mad at Mangini, actually, I feel bad for him and am kind of happy he took this job. He got served shit soup and he has to turn it into Lobster Bisque in front 10 million people without panicking, that takes balls.

mopaji

@medicineman said:
Rebuilding has been our excuse ever since we returned to Cleveland. We fire a coach after a year or 2. Then we start all over again. I would love to have Marty back in Cleveland. I really didn't HATE Romeo. I know its not the coaches fault we fumbled like 5 times on sunday but somebody needs to be blamed. Its just a shame we have to coach players to hold on to the ball when you are a "pro"

If you have a problem "rebuilding" every two years, why would you want a new HC now? This has been a constant in this town.

"I'm sick of rebuilding, fire the coach"

"We have no identity, lets rebuild again"

"Lets blow this whole thing up, why can't we win now?"

"There has been no consistancy, we need a new GM"

THIS IS WHAT REBUILDING LOOKS LIKE. AND THIS IS ONE OF THE VERY FEW COACHES WHO CAN DO IT CORRECTLY. ITS UGLY, ITS PAINFUL TO WATCH, AND I'M TIRED OF IT. BUT ITS THE ONLY WAY.

ISSUE 3 PASSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

peterbell

@the-gipper said:
By the way, I would like to see that list of 26 guys Mangini has jettisoned, and which ones are or are not still in the league. You say there are only 4 of 26? Two of them would be Winslow and Edwards. Any more names?

\

Edwards and Winslow were traded for draft picks and players.. they dont't count. That 2 for 26 is correct on cut or released players..Thats over half the freakin team from last year that can't get jobs because they are not NFL cailber players..That Browns fans, is what Phil Savage brought to the table..not Mangini..Mangini is not responsible for the last ten years and to expect a turn around in 9 months is idiotic. Your taking out 10 years of frustration on the coach that has been there 9 f**kin months!! Look, this has to be done logically and smartly..not with a hurry up attitude. and too think Mark Sanchez was the answer..watch some Jet games..

This team has a lot of holes to fill, 11 picks in the draft will of course help.Buying a team doesn't work, and that formula has proven not to work by the Redskins year after f**kin year. Building a winning program takes time and patience.

He's doing all he can do with this team and this situation. I'm not mad at Mangini, actually, I feel bad for him and am kind of happy he took this job. He got served shit soup and he has to turn it into Lobster Bisque in front 10 million people without panicking, that takes balls.

I could have not said it any better..f**kin perfect

hoorta

@mopaji said:
The QB thing is far more complicated than any of us will know. As far as the saying Mangini made a statement that we don't need a TE or WR, that is just wrong. It wasn't a statement, it was a move for the future. He traded two guys that didn't want to be here, were overpaid, on their way out, and wasting away on a bad team. What he got in return was draft picks. Most importantly, he got high picks for this year's draft which is far better than last years.
He's doing all he can do with this team and this situation. I'm not mad at Mangini, actually, I feel bad for him and am kind of happy he took this job. He got served shit soup and he has to turn it into Lobster Bisque in front 10 million people without panicking, that takes balls.

QB thing more complicated than we could know? I know one thing- a guy with a 30-something qb rating needs to be benched yesterday. I've seen every Browns qb since Milt Plum, and I'm having a hard time remembering one who's looked worse than Anderson the last 20 games he's played in. Mangini's letting his ego get in the way of common sense

Browns qb poll

I'll even give you a mulligan that maybe Mangini knows more than 99% of the fans that voted, but that doesn't take into account guys like Rutigliano, Dieken, and Marino who are saying the same thing.

"The bottom line for them right now is they don't have a real good football team. They're not playing even to the level that the talent is expressed and it's going to be a very, very difficult circumstance. The important thing in my view is very simply this: You cannot lose your football team. "

Uh, that's a quote from Marty Schottenheimer from another thread. I repeat They're not playing even to the level that the talent is expressed . Bad coaching, bad motivation.

So since we're at an expansion team level, no loss to tell Mangini to take a hike and bring in a proven winner next year.

Chip Banks

@the-gipper said:
But you see, every coach is basically only interested in HIS talent. The guys he brought in. I mean, Bill Belichick dumps Bernie Kosar in favor of Todd Philcox not because Philcox gave the team a better chance to win, but because Bernie was not his guy. Though Philcox may not have been his guy either, BB knew that he could never put "his guy" into place until he got rid of "the other guys guy".

The next year BB's guys went 11-5.

Savage's guys sucked. Hell, I'd contend that outside of Thomas, Cribbs and maybe Jackson, the Jets transplants are some of our better players.

Better yet, who other than Edwards and Winslow did Mangini dump that is worth a shit? Maybe Sean Jones?

He kept guys like Pool and Wright and McDonald and Wimbley (who arguably, but seemingly only arguably) have potential. He kept Harrison and Vickers. He didn't jettison a bunch of talented players.

Winslow's getting huge money and hasn't made a difference on his team. They, like us have one win. Winslow doesn't block and is a huge risk to play for more than one or two seasons. Really, Savage poisoned him for this franchise last year anyways.

In 2008, Edwards was the 6th highest paid WR in the NFL, with a cap value near $8,000,000. He was like the 36th most productive.

Even if next year the CBA is not reworked, the Browns would have to tender Edwards 110% of his prior year's salary to be a "qualifying offer" as a restricted free agent. A transitional player gets the average of the salaries of the top 10 highest paid players at the position in the NFL, the franchise player gets top 5! So, which one of you guys wanted to overpay this huge piece of ball-dropping shit to stick around and show our young receivers how to be a pro? Add that the had he not moved to the NFL's favorite son franchise (NYJ), he surely would have served at least a couple days suspension for an offense where he was indicted and faces 6 months in prison.

Trusnik, who at worst is a ST stud and at best is the next London Fletcher (okay, maybe that's wishful thinking but at least the kid seems to have heart), Stuckey who most say is a credible NFL slot receiver (though we've yet to see it) and a third and a fifth for a one-year rental of Edwards? I think Tannenbaum and Ryan were taken in that deal. They have the same record that we do since that deal, BTW.

On the subject, who here is sold that Sanchez is the real deal? The national media that is piling on Mangini is using Sanchez as the example of Mangini's incompetence. Who thinks its a good idea to be paying Sanchez #5 overall pick money on this team?

There's the draft. But Mack looks to be turning into a pretty solid center (see Mangold in NY). Look at what Manningham did last year with the Giants before you so quickly judge Robiskie and MoMass. Some receivers taken in the second round or lower burst onto the scene their rookie year. I think that's an exception, though . . . and they usually play for a good team.

Maiva's playing about like you'd expect a 4th round LBer to play. Veikune worries me a little, but he's switching positions and we've only played 8 games. Robert Ayers, who is in a similar position change transition and was drafted #18 overall has only 8 tackles on the year and not a sack.

CLEVELandMILIDH

@chip-banks said:
There's the draft. But Mack looks to be turning into a pretty solid center (see Mangold in NY). Look at what Manningham did last year with the Giants before you so quickly judge Robiskie and MoMass. Some receivers taken in the second round or lower burst onto the scene their rookie year. I think that's an exception, though . . . and they usually play for a good team.

the steelers took Limas Sweed in the second round 2 years ago and are 2 rookie WR's see more action then him. I agree its way to early to judge 2 rookie WR that got thrown in a bad situation.

NW Ohio Brownie

A lot of good thoughts on this thread.

Let me respond to a few.

First, our pitiful offensive display week after week after week is clouding our judgment about the entire team performance. Would we be this pissed at 1-7 if we were losing 30-27 every week? I highly doubt it. We just continue to get angrier and angrier because the offense gives us nothing to get excited about.

Second, Mangini was asked to come in and instill some accountability and discipline. He has done that. No doubt part of that implementation cost us Edwards and Winslow. So what? Those guys were not in our long-term future even before Mangini was hired.

Third, anybody who says Mangini is not playing the rookies is either high or has a short-term memory. Are you people serious with this argument? We are playing everybody. Every. Body. MoMass, Robo, Maiava, Veikune, Francies. They all saw time with the 1s last week. What rookies are you referring to that are waiting behind Elam or Bowens or Barton or Trusnik? Compared to Crennel this is a windfall of rookie playing time. Hell, that turd played Edwards in the slot for nearly his entire rookie year with Northcutt as the #2 receiver. Now was that dumb or was that dumb?

Fourth, our defense is only two players away from being a solid defensive unit. Rob Ryan is doing wonders with this mixed bag of a unit. If we can add a playmaking safety (Eric Berry) and either a pass rusher or banger at ILB, this D is set for next year. You'll be amazed at how much better those two pieces, when added, will make Wimbley, Wright, McDonald, and Jackson.

Fifth, our offense is showing signs of life in the running game. The problem is that it doesn't mean squat because you can't be one-dimensional at any level and our running game becomes irrelevant when we fall behind by two scores.

In short, if our offense and DA had any kind of a pulse, we would be talking about a competitive, disciplined football team instead of the mess we seem to be right now.

I really only have two issues right now with Mangini: 1) Daboll doesn't seem like a good hire 2) He's got to play Quinn right now

Tim Couch Pulls Out

I agree wholeheartedly with the OP. The only problem I have is with the lack of offensive production. I honestly feel that BQ was thrown under the bus, and we were trying to save money on his contract clause. That's great, I understand that it's a business, we just saved a bunch of money that can be spent in FA. But now that there is no way he can get his money, put him in and give him the full playbook. It was obvious he was only given pages 1-3, and they were terrible Xerox's that he could barely see, much less interpret. Now let's get him the full edition, and let's see what he can do. I feel like he is undeserving of being the new "Captain Checkdown", and that he can actually compete if given the full opportunity. As for the defense, Rob Ryan needs to stay. He turned our sorry scrubs into a force to be reckoned with. Okay, that's a huge stretch. He at least turned them into a force to be thought about. Imagine what he could do with a healthy Qwell and a half decent corner to replace B-Mac.

CLEVELandMILIDH

When you have 4 returning starters from last year on the offensive side you have to keep it simple early on. Now that were half way through the season, I agree they should all start getting on the same page and we should be able to open it up.....but who knows this is the Browns

DawgTracker

I think Mangini expected to be more competitive offensively but expected the losses. We may have won one or two more games with Winslow, BE wasn't doing anything here. But, if you are establishing a team attitude that winning comes first you cannot have two star malcontents on the team. If Heiden had been healthy we wouldn't have been missing Winslow nearly as much. Gaines might be the tight end that is good enough, we will see. But, we would be very fortunate if he turned out to be a long term starter.

steel88

@hoorta said:
QB thing more complicated than we could know? I know one thing- a guy with a 30-something qb rating needs to be benched yesterday. I've seen every Browns qb since Milt Plum, and I'm having a hard time remembering one who's looked worse than Anderson the last 20 games he's played in. Mangini's letting his ego get in the way of common sense
Browns qb poll

I'll even give you a mulligan that maybe Mangini knows more than 99% of the fans that voted, but that doesn't take into account guys like Rutigliano, Dieken, and Marino who are saying the same thing.

"The bottom line for them right now is they don't have a real good football team. They're not playing even to the level that the talent is expressed and it's going to be a very, very difficult circumstance. The important thing in my view is very simply this: You cannot lose your football team. "

Uh, that's a quote from Marty Schottenheimer from another thread. I repeat They're not playing even to the level that the talent is expressed . Bad coaching, bad motivation.

So since we're at an expansion team level, no loss to tell Mangini to take a hike and bring in a proven winner next year.

How does schottenheimer Know what the team is capable of? what I see is a team on the defensive side of the ball responding to the coaching now on the offensive side of the ball its a lack of talent in primary spots and bad, bad, bad, bad play calling which is why mangini is going to have carl smith call it for the rest of the season.